Dutch antitrust regulators launch probe into Apple Pay

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 51
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes, BBVA supports Apple Pay. 

    Apple does not support BBVA Pay. 

    And there lies the problem for my wife. She wants choice. She wants to use our bank's Pay service. 
    Why can't (or won't) she just add her BBVA card to her Apple Wallet!? She will have all the benefits of both, no? What am I missing?
    AFAIK, adding her card to Wallet would mean using Apple Pay. She wants to use BBVA Pay as I do. The only way that can happen is for Apple to make its NFC hardware available to the banks. That would allow her to choose from different services in the same way I can. 

    I can see that.
    But I don't want Apple's security system to be compromised by opening it up to others.

    One of the selling points of ApplePay and iPhones in general is the privacy and security that they offer.   Opening that up to others in a Windows or Android way opens windows of opportunity for hacking and such.   I get it that organizatins like BBVA want a piece of the action.   And I get it that your wife wants that option.  But, if it comes by compromising my security I would suggest that she does have other options -- while I only have ApplePay -- and once that is compromised, then I have none.
  • Reply 42 of 51
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes, BBVA supports Apple Pay. 

    Apple does not support BBVA Pay. 

    And there lies the problem for my wife. She wants choice. She wants to use our bank's Pay service. 
    Why can't (or won't) she just add her BBVA card to her Apple Wallet!? She will have all the benefits of both, no? What am I missing?
    AFAIK, adding her card to Wallet would mean using Apple Pay. She wants to use BBVA Pay as I do. The only way that can happen is for Apple to make its NFC hardware available to the banks. That would allow her to choose from different services in the same way I can. 
    Or, use her card, or an Android device.

    See?  Choice.  No action by Apple or the government required.
  • Reply 43 of 51
    So you admit they’re wasting time?  

    Grandstanding politicians investigating those mean Americans who just continue to outperform the rest of the world. 

    I am so, so, so excited about some government trying to micromanage Apple's services to the point where Apple just gives up and says, "Fine, we won't sell iPhones or internet services to anyone in your country. Buh-bye." Let's see how that helps consumers in the Netherlands "increase their freedom of choice." Doesn't the Dutch government understand that the iPhone itself IS a choice? The only way that the Netherlands could mandate this is if they made the iPhone the only legal smart phone that anyone in the Netherlands could ever use. In that case I would back them up. Android has a 57% share of smartphones in the Netherlands and iOS has 42%, and they want to boot iOS out of their country? How does that increase choice? That will hand a 99% marketshare to Android. Where's the choice then?
    First of all: the Dutch government is not taking a stance against Apple, neither are they trying to remove Apple from the Dutch market or  trying to limit user’s choice to Android only; they’re investigating if limiting the NFC chip from others using it, is illegal (hurting consumers or abusing market power). 
    I’m sure they’ll find out it is in the best interest of users (like in Australia), and after this probe it will be clearer what Apple’s motivation is. For Apple it’s actually more effective this way, than having to spend millions on advertising to prove the same (with less credibility). 


  • Reply 44 of 51
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,764member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes, BBVA supports Apple Pay. 

    Apple does not support BBVA Pay. 

    And there lies the problem for my wife. She wants choice. She wants to use our bank's Pay service. 
    Why can't (or won't) she just add her BBVA card to her Apple Wallet!? She will have all the benefits of both, no? What am I missing?
    AFAIK, adding her card to Wallet would mean using Apple Pay. She wants to use BBVA Pay as I do. The only way that can happen is for Apple to make its NFC hardware available to the banks. That would allow her to choose from different services in the same way I can. 
    Or, use her card, or an Android device.

    See?  Choice.  No action by Apple or the government required.
    If it were that simple this thread wouldn't exist and there wouldn't be multiple investigations open and looking very closely at the matter. 

    In this particular case, my wife was never informed prior to purchase that the NFC hardware on the phone would be restricted to Apple's own use. She was never informed that the sole option would be Apple Pay and that Apple would be taking a cut of every transaction. 

    'Choice' (or lack of it) is definitely part of the problem but, as I've stated many times, even that, unto itself might not be an issue, but I feel that one area where Apple could be forced to change is precisely with what and how users are informed of platform restrictions (and no, in the EU, a multi page document that pops up out of nowhere and in the middle of another process with a checkbox saying 'I agree' will definitely not cut it.

    If given the choice of clearly telling users that the sole place for app downloads is the App Store and that Apple will take a cut of purchases, that NFC is reserved for Apple (and again Apple will take a cut) etc, I think Apple would change its ways quickly. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 45 of 51
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,471member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes, BBVA supports Apple Pay. 

    Apple does not support BBVA Pay. 

    And there lies the problem for my wife. She wants choice. She wants to use our bank's Pay service. 
    Why can't (or won't) she just add her BBVA card to her Apple Wallet!? She will have all the benefits of both, no? What am I missing?
    AFAIK, adding her card to Wallet would mean using Apple Pay. She wants to use BBVA Pay as I do. The only way that can happen is for Apple to make its NFC hardware available to the banks. That would allow her to choose from different services in the same way I can. 
    Or, use her card, or an Android device.

    See?  Choice.  No action by Apple or the government required.
    If it were that simple this thread wouldn't exist and there wouldn't be multiple investigations open and looking very closely at the matter. 

    In this particular case, my wife was never informed prior to purchase that the NFC hardware on the phone would be restricted to Apple's own use. She was never informed that the sole option would be Apple Pay and that Apple would be taking a cut of every transaction. 

    'Choice' (or lack of it) is definitely part of the problem but, as I've stated many times, even that, unto itself might not be an issue, but I feel that one area where Apple could be forced to change is precisely with what and how users are informed of platform restrictions (and no, in the EU, a multi page document that pops up out of nowhere and in the middle of another process with a checkbox saying 'I agree' will definitely not cut it.

    If given the choice of clearly telling users that the sole place for app downloads is the App Store and that Apple will take a cut of purchases, that NFC is reserved for Apple (and again Apple will take a cut) etc, I think Apple would change its ways quickly. 

    Are you saying that people want the benefits of the walled garden -- but without the walls?
  • Reply 46 of 51
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,764member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes, BBVA supports Apple Pay. 

    Apple does not support BBVA Pay. 

    And there lies the problem for my wife. She wants choice. She wants to use our bank's Pay service. 
    Why can't (or won't) she just add her BBVA card to her Apple Wallet!? She will have all the benefits of both, no? What am I missing?
    AFAIK, adding her card to Wallet would mean using Apple Pay. She wants to use BBVA Pay as I do. The only way that can happen is for Apple to make its NFC hardware available to the banks. That would allow her to choose from different services in the same way I can. 
    Or, use her card, or an Android device.

    See?  Choice.  No action by Apple or the government required.
    If it were that simple this thread wouldn't exist and there wouldn't be multiple investigations open and looking very closely at the matter. 

    In this particular case, my wife was never informed prior to purchase that the NFC hardware on the phone would be restricted to Apple's own use. She was never informed that the sole option would be Apple Pay and that Apple would be taking a cut of every transaction. 

    'Choice' (or lack of it) is definitely part of the problem but, as I've stated many times, even that, unto itself might not be an issue, but I feel that one area where Apple could be forced to change is precisely with what and how users are informed of platform restrictions (and no, in the EU, a multi page document that pops up out of nowhere and in the middle of another process with a checkbox saying 'I agree' will definitely not cut it.

    If given the choice of clearly telling users that the sole place for app downloads is the App Store and that Apple will take a cut of purchases, that NFC is reserved for Apple (and again Apple will take a cut) etc, I think Apple would change its ways quickly. 

    Are you saying that people want the benefits of the walled garden -- but without the walls?
    In a way, yes.

    Of course, that angle is one of the possibilities that could arise from the investigations.

    It's not so much that Apple can't be allowed to have its garden but the choice and information that go with it. 

    I see no real issue with people voluntarily entering that garden and 'paying' for the privilege of being locked in. 

    I think one of the arrows flying Apple's way is going to be that it is going to be seen as anti-competitive on its platform and not informing purchasers of restrictions before they buy. 

    I definitely think they might end up having to clearly (and in simple terminology) inform users of restrictions. They might also be forced to allow third party stores on devices.

    Those who wilfully accept those limitations would still be able to ignore the choices open to them if they wished to. For those people, nothing would change. 

    It all hinges on the outcome of the different investigations. By the same token, Apple might not be obliged to change anything. That's also a possibility. I don't see that happening myself but it's definitely possible. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 47 of 51
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes, BBVA supports Apple Pay. 

    Apple does not support BBVA Pay. 

    And there lies the problem for my wife. She wants choice. She wants to use our bank's Pay service. 
    Why can't (or won't) she just add her BBVA card to her Apple Wallet!? She will have all the benefits of both, no? What am I missing?
    AFAIK, adding her card to Wallet would mean using Apple Pay. She wants to use BBVA Pay as I do. The only way that can happen is for Apple to make its NFC hardware available to the banks. That would allow her to choose from different services in the same way I can. 
    Not at all, assuming I am understanding your situation correctly. You add your card to Apple Wallet, then you basically get to use it with your iPhone or Watch in most NFC POS terminals. I do this pretty regularly all over the US, and have done this in India, France, Germany, and the UK.

    I am guessing that post-COVID, the ability to use regular NFC terminals -- whether or not there's an ApplePay logo on the terminal --  will become even more ubiquitous. 

    I would suggest she try out it. 
  • Reply 48 of 51
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes, BBVA supports Apple Pay. 

    Apple does not support BBVA Pay. 

    And there lies the problem for my wife. She wants choice. She wants to use our bank's Pay service. 
    Why can't (or won't) she just add her BBVA card to her Apple Wallet!? She will have all the benefits of both, no? What am I missing?
    AFAIK, adding her card to Wallet would mean using Apple Pay. She wants to use BBVA Pay as I do. The only way that can happen is for Apple to make its NFC hardware available to the banks. That would allow her to choose from different services in the same way I can. 
    Not at all, assuming I am understanding your situation correctly. You add your card to Apple Wallet, then you basically get to use it with your iPhone or Watch in most NFC POS terminals. I do this pretty regularly all over the US, and have done this in India, France, Germany, and the UK.

    I am guessing that post-COVID, the ability to use regular NFC terminals -- whether or not there's an ApplePay logo on the terminal --  will become even more ubiquitous. 

    I would suggest she try out it. 

    That would be using her bank's card.   True.
    But it would not be using her bank's alternative to Apple Pay.  It's not clear why she wants to do that, but apparently she does.

    Apple however has their NFC payment system integrated with ApplePay and neatly tucked away and separated from the rest of the system so it is not available to outside payment systems.
    Here is how it was explained at the outset (at 6:00 minute mark of the video).   But it was interesting how they introduced it at the beginning as a the START of replacing a wallet:   unfortunately, for reasons not known to us, they stopped with ApplePay and instead now try to sell us their own wallet.  I find that disappointing -- but I'm still grateful for ApplePay.   It seems to be the Gold Standard of electronic payment systems -- particularly with regard to security.




    edited December 2020
  • Reply 49 of 51
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,764member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes, BBVA supports Apple Pay. 

    Apple does not support BBVA Pay. 

    And there lies the problem for my wife. She wants choice. She wants to use our bank's Pay service. 
    Why can't (or won't) she just add her BBVA card to her Apple Wallet!? She will have all the benefits of both, no? What am I missing?
    AFAIK, adding her card to Wallet would mean using Apple Pay. She wants to use BBVA Pay as I do. The only way that can happen is for Apple to make its NFC hardware available to the banks. That would allow her to choose from different services in the same way I can. 
    Not at all, assuming I am understanding your situation correctly. You add your card to Apple Wallet, then you basically get to use it with your iPhone or Watch in most NFC POS terminals. I do this pretty regularly all over the US, and have done this in India, France, Germany, and the UK.

    I am guessing that post-COVID, the ability to use regular NFC terminals -- whether or not there's an ApplePay logo on the terminal --  will become even more ubiquitous. 

    I would suggest she try out it. 
    I haven't checked on Wallet since it was announced but everything I saw with 'Wallet' at Apple's support pages linked to Apple Pay as you clicked deeper.

    It was impossible to avoid the Apple Pay hoop. If you wanted to use your card, you had to jump through that hoop and Apple would take its cut of every purchase you made. 

    My wife's problem with this lies in that aspect. She isn't against Apple Pay per se. She is against the lack of choice which iPhones represent. 

    It's not a major problem for her. She uses her card on the rare occasions she is doing the paying and has a real purse/wallet full of other cards so she doesn't have a lot of space she could save. 

    The difference has been with seeing me making more phone payments with my phone as a result of COVID-19 (especially micro payments and as the no PIN limit was increased to 50€). If it hadn't been for that she would never have asked or known about the lack of choice. 

    Although in a normal summer it is quite common for me to leave my phone a home and just carry my card. 
  • Reply 50 of 51
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes, BBVA supports Apple Pay. 

    Apple does not support BBVA Pay. 

    And there lies the problem for my wife. She wants choice. She wants to use our bank's Pay service. 
    Why can't (or won't) she just add her BBVA card to her Apple Wallet!? She will have all the benefits of both, no? What am I missing?
    AFAIK, adding her card to Wallet would mean using Apple Pay. She wants to use BBVA Pay as I do. The only way that can happen is for Apple to make its NFC hardware available to the banks. That would allow her to choose from different services in the same way I can. 
    Or, use her card, or an Android device.

    See?  Choice.  No action by Apple or the government required.
    If it were that simple this thread wouldn't exist and there wouldn't be multiple investigations open and looking very closely at the matter. 

    In this particular case, my wife was never informed prior to purchase that the NFC hardware on the phone would be restricted to Apple's own use. She was never informed that the sole option would be Apple Pay and that Apple would be taking a cut of every transaction. 

    'Choice' (or lack of it) is definitely part of the problem but, as I've stated many times, even that, unto itself might not be an issue, but I feel that one area where Apple could be forced to change is precisely with what and how users are informed of platform restrictions (and no, in the EU, a multi page document that pops up out of nowhere and in the middle of another process with a checkbox saying 'I agree' will definitely not cut it.

    If given the choice of clearly telling users that the sole place for app downloads is the App Store and that Apple will take a cut of purchases, that NFC is reserved for Apple (and again Apple will take a cut) etc, I think Apple would change its ways quickly. 

    Maybe you and/or your wife should read the EULA before making decisions about buying things from Apple...


  • Reply 51 of 51
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,764member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes, BBVA supports Apple Pay. 

    Apple does not support BBVA Pay. 

    And there lies the problem for my wife. She wants choice. She wants to use our bank's Pay service. 
    Why can't (or won't) she just add her BBVA card to her Apple Wallet!? She will have all the benefits of both, no? What am I missing?
    AFAIK, adding her card to Wallet would mean using Apple Pay. She wants to use BBVA Pay as I do. The only way that can happen is for Apple to make its NFC hardware available to the banks. That would allow her to choose from different services in the same way I can. 
    Or, use her card, or an Android device.

    See?  Choice.  No action by Apple or the government required.
    If it were that simple this thread wouldn't exist and there wouldn't be multiple investigations open and looking very closely at the matter. 

    In this particular case, my wife was never informed prior to purchase that the NFC hardware on the phone would be restricted to Apple's own use. She was never informed that the sole option would be Apple Pay and that Apple would be taking a cut of every transaction. 

    'Choice' (or lack of it) is definitely part of the problem but, as I've stated many times, even that, unto itself might not be an issue, but I feel that one area where Apple could be forced to change is precisely with what and how users are informed of platform restrictions (and no, in the EU, a multi page document that pops up out of nowhere and in the middle of another process with a checkbox saying 'I agree' will definitely not cut it.

    If given the choice of clearly telling users that the sole place for app downloads is the App Store and that Apple will take a cut of purchases, that NFC is reserved for Apple (and again Apple will take a cut) etc, I think Apple would change its ways quickly. 

    Maybe you and/or your wife should read the EULA before making decisions about buying things from Apple...


    Maybe you should read what I wrote. I tackled that. 

    In the case I am highlighting, the EULA approach - as it stands now - would NOT be acceptable. 

    For reference, when the EU ruled against Spanish banks on the mortgage 'floor clauses' situation, having the details spelt out in the mortgage deeds and having those clauses read by a public notary was not considered good enough in making the title holder aware of the limitations. 
    GeorgeBMac
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