The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
No, people malign Apple's case because it's a crappy design that doesn't fully protect the device and looks dorky. You're the first and only person I've seen that called it gay. Kind of makes me think that's an issue with you rather than everyone else.
I like it more than Apple's case, but that's not saying much.
What I didn't notice being listed is whether being in that case will put the headphones into an ultra-low power state the way Apple's case does.
I'n in the same boat. It's hard to do much with a case; ultimately it has to cover the device it's protecting so your options are limited. Of course that didn't stop Apple from botching it pretty good... Still, I'd prefer different materials, but to each their own.
I'm sure other options will follow soon, but I fully agree with the other commenters here regarding the added cost. One of the primary uses of ANC headphones like these is for flying which means you need to be able to throw them in a bag and not have to worry about them being protected. The AirPods Max lack not only a 3.5 mm cable to use with an airline sound system but also a case that will fully protect them in a bag. (another problem with the Apple case is that it makes it easy for other stuff in your bag to get caught on the headphones, possibly causing them to get inadvertently pulled out and thrown on the floor.) What this means is after paying $550 for these you need to pay an additional $45 for the cable and $50-100 for a case, putting your total outlay at $700 USD to get something that is functionally equivalent to other headphones costing less than $300.
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
No, people malign Apple's case because it's a crappy design that doesn't fully protect the device and looks dorky. You're the first and only person I've seen that called it gay. Kind of makes me think that's an issue with you rather than everyone else.
I like it more than Apple's case, but that's not saying much.
What I didn't notice being listed is whether being in that case will put the headphones into an ultra-low power state the way Apple's case does.
I'n in the same boat. It's hard to do much with a case; ultimately it has to cover the device it's protecting so your options are limited. Of course that didn't stop Apple from botching it pretty good... Still, I'd prefer different materials, but to each their own.
I'm sure other options will follow soon, but I fully agree with the other commenters here regarding the added cost. One of the primary uses of ANC headphones like these is for flying which means you need to be able to throw them in a bag and not have to worry about them being protected. The AirPods Max lack not only a 3.5 mm cable to use with an airline sound system but also a case that will fully protect them in a bag. (another problem with the Apple case is that it makes it easy for other stuff in your bag to get caught on the headphones, possibly causing them to get inadvertently pulled out and thrown on the floor.) What this means is after paying $550 for these you need to pay an additional $45 for the cable and $50-100 for a case, putting your total outlay at $700 USD to get something that is functionally equivalent to other headphones costing less than $300.
1) Your points to Elian are all valid, but, for me, the biggest issue is that it looks to be made of a material that will attract dirt extremely fast, according to reviewers. This case will rub against the inside of a bag, or be placed on a gross conveyer belt or tub at airports. This needs to be durable and cleanable as well as protect the contents.
2) I'm personally not that concerned about the lack of a 3.5mm jack, but this price I think they should've included the adapter cable. For those that want BT headphones for a plane and want it to connect to their system there is a nifty AirFly options from Twelve South. I have the Pro version which I have used on a plane as well as with an old iPad that didn't allow for both wired and wireless headphones or two BT headphones to be used at once.
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
No, people malign Apple's case because it's a crappy design that doesn't fully protect the device and looks dorky. You're the first and only person I've seen that called it gay. Kind of makes me think that's an issue with you rather than everyone else.
I like it more than Apple's case, but that's not saying much.
What I didn't notice being listed is whether being in that case will put the headphones into an ultra-low power state the way Apple's case does.
I'n in the same boat. It's hard to do much with a case; ultimately it has to cover the device it's protecting so your options are limited. Of course that didn't stop Apple from botching it pretty good... Still, I'd prefer different materials, but to each their own.
I'm sure other options will follow soon, but I fully agree with the other commenters here regarding the added cost. One of the primary uses of ANC headphones like these is for flying which means you need to be able to throw them in a bag and not have to worry about them being protected. The AirPods Max lack not only a 3.5 mm cable to use with an airline sound system but also a case that will fully protect them in a bag. (another problem with the Apple case is that it makes it easy for other stuff in your bag to get caught on the headphones, possibly causing them to get inadvertently pulled out and thrown on the floor.) What this means is after paying $550 for these you need to pay an additional $45 for the cable and $50-100 for a case, putting your total outlay at $700 USD to get something that is functionally equivalent to other headphones costing less than $300.
1) Your points to Elian are all valid, but, for me, the biggest issue is that it looks to be made of a material that will attract dirt extremely fast, according to reviewers. This case will rub against the inside of a bag, or be placed on a gross conveyer belt or tub at airports. This needs to be durable and cleanable as well as protect the contents.
It's made of leather, why do you think it'll attract dirt any faster than anything else made of leather, or be less cleanable or durable?
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
No, people malign Apple's case because it's a crappy design that doesn't fully protect the device and looks dorky. You're the first and only person I've seen that called it gay. Kind of makes me think that's an issue with you rather than everyone else.
I like it more than Apple's case, but that's not saying much.
What I didn't notice being listed is whether being in that case will put the headphones into an ultra-low power state the way Apple's case does.
I'n in the same boat. It's hard to do much with a case; ultimately it has to cover the device it's protecting so your options are limited. Of course that didn't stop Apple from botching it pretty good... Still, I'd prefer different materials, but to each their own.
I'm sure other options will follow soon, but I fully agree with the other commenters here regarding the added cost. One of the primary uses of ANC headphones like these is for flying which means you need to be able to throw them in a bag and not have to worry about them being protected. The AirPods Max lack not only a 3.5 mm cable to use with an airline sound system but also a case that will fully protect them in a bag. (another problem with the Apple case is that it makes it easy for other stuff in your bag to get caught on the headphones, possibly causing them to get inadvertently pulled out and thrown on the floor.) What this means is after paying $550 for these you need to pay an additional $45 for the cable and $50-100 for a case, putting your total outlay at $700 USD to get something that is functionally equivalent to other headphones costing less than $300.
1) Your points to Elian are all valid, but, for me, the biggest issue is that it looks to be made of a material that will attract dirt extremely fast, according to reviewers. This case will rub against the inside of a bag, or be placed on a gross conveyer belt or tub at airports. This needs to be durable and cleanable as well as protect the contents.
It's made of leather, why do you think it'll attract dirt any faster than anything else made of leather, or be less cleanable or durable?
Maybe because I've had real world experience with actual products so I understand the basic concept that not all things work in the exact same way as another based on some basic statement about the material used. Since you lack this basic comprehension you might want to start with a simple search on the different processes for leather used in shoes. You should be able to follow this one.
This is a totally expected accessory because Apple’s case left a lot of room for others to improve upon, whether intentional of not. I expect many others to follow, including ones that are even more protective and less attractive. If you’re buying a case just to protect your APM headphones while traveling and will put the case into a backpack, duffel, or luggage, there’s no need for it to be pretty. I fully expect someone will build a murse/purse with a shoulder strap that has a compartment for the APM headphones along with whatever else you carry with you in such situations. I’m very use case oriented with headphones, so the AirPods Pro would probably be my first choice when traveling and the Max would stay at home in its factory issued case.
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
No, people malign Apple's case because it's a crappy design that doesn't fully protect the device and looks dorky. You're the first and only person I've seen that called it gay. Kind of makes me think that's an issue with you rather than everyone else.
I like it more than Apple's case, but that's not saying much.
What I didn't notice being listed is whether being in that case will put the headphones into an ultra-low power state the way Apple's case does.
I'n in the same boat. It's hard to do much with a case; ultimately it has to cover the device it's protecting so your options are limited. Of course that didn't stop Apple from botching it pretty good... Still, I'd prefer different materials, but to each their own.
I'm sure other options will follow soon, but I fully agree with the other commenters here regarding the added cost. One of the primary uses of ANC headphones like these is for flying which means you need to be able to throw them in a bag and not have to worry about them being protected. The AirPods Max lack not only a 3.5 mm cable to use with an airline sound system but also a case that will fully protect them in a bag. (another problem with the Apple case is that it makes it easy for other stuff in your bag to get caught on the headphones, possibly causing them to get inadvertently pulled out and thrown on the floor.) What this means is after paying $550 for these you need to pay an additional $45 for the cable and $50-100 for a case, putting your total outlay at $700 USD to get something that is functionally equivalent to other headphones costing less than $300.
1) Your points to Elian are all valid, but, for me, the biggest issue is that it looks to be made of a material that will attract dirt extremely fast, according to reviewers. This case will rub against the inside of a bag, or be placed on a gross conveyer belt or tub at airports. This needs to be durable and cleanable as well as protect the contents.
It's made of leather, why do you think it'll attract dirt any faster than anything else made of leather, or be less cleanable or durable?
Maybe because I've had real world experience with actual products so I understand the basic concept that not all things work in the exact same way as another based on some basic statement about the material used. Since you lack this basic comprehension you might want to start with a simple search on the different processes for leather used in shoes. You should be able to follow this one.
Nice unnecessary snark, but it doesn't answer my question at all. You said "it looks to be made of a material that will attract dirt extremely fast, according to reviewers". The pictures don't show much detail about the quality of the leather, though I'd say the black, blue and crimson leather look very cleanable to me, (the brown is less clear due to the worn effect, but meh, don't buy that one if it's a concern). What reviews are you talking about?
Try to have a conversation without going out of your way to insult and disparage the other person please.
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
No, people malign Apple's case because it's a crappy design that doesn't fully protect the device and looks dorky. You're the first and only person I've seen that called it gay. Kind of makes me think that's an issue with you rather than everyone else.
I like it more than Apple's case, but that's not saying much.
What I didn't notice being listed is whether being in that case will put the headphones into an ultra-low power state the way Apple's case does.
I'n in the same boat. It's hard to do much with a case; ultimately it has to cover the device it's protecting so your options are limited. Of course that didn't stop Apple from botching it pretty good... Still, I'd prefer different materials, but to each their own.
I'm sure other options will follow soon, but I fully agree with the other commenters here regarding the added cost. One of the primary uses of ANC headphones like these is for flying which means you need to be able to throw them in a bag and not have to worry about them being protected. The AirPods Max lack not only a 3.5 mm cable to use with an airline sound system but also a case that will fully protect them in a bag. (another problem with the Apple case is that it makes it easy for other stuff in your bag to get caught on the headphones, possibly causing them to get inadvertently pulled out and thrown on the floor.) What this means is after paying $550 for these you need to pay an additional $45 for the cable and $50-100 for a case, putting your total outlay at $700 USD to get something that is functionally equivalent to other headphones costing less than $300.
1) Your points to Elian are all valid, but, for me, the biggest issue is that it looks to be made of a material that will attract dirt extremely fast, according to reviewers. This case will rub against the inside of a bag, or be placed on a gross conveyer belt or tub at airports. This needs to be durable and cleanable as well as protect the contents.
2) I'm personally not that concerned about the lack of a 3.5mm jack, but this price I think they should've included the adapter cable. For those that want BT headphones for a plane and want it to connect to their system there is a nifty AirFly options from Twelve South. I have the Pro version which I have used on a plane as well as with an old iPad that didn't allow for both wired and wireless headphones or two BT headphones to be used at once.
That still leaves you with a $50 accessory to buy (and keep charged,) although it does have other potential uses which may mitigate the cost issue somewhat.
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
No, people malign Apple's case because it's a crappy design that doesn't fully protect the device and looks dorky. You're the first and only person I've seen that called it gay. Kind of makes me think that's an issue with you rather than everyone else.
I like it more than Apple's case, but that's not saying much.
What I didn't notice being listed is whether being in that case will put the headphones into an ultra-low power state the way Apple's case does.
I'n in the same boat. It's hard to do much with a case; ultimately it has to cover the device it's protecting so your options are limited. Of course that didn't stop Apple from botching it pretty good... Still, I'd prefer different materials, but to each their own.
I'm sure other options will follow soon, but I fully agree with the other commenters here regarding the added cost. One of the primary uses of ANC headphones like these is for flying which means you need to be able to throw them in a bag and not have to worry about them being protected. The AirPods Max lack not only a 3.5 mm cable to use with an airline sound system but also a case that will fully protect them in a bag. (another problem with the Apple case is that it makes it easy for other stuff in your bag to get caught on the headphones, possibly causing them to get inadvertently pulled out and thrown on the floor.) What this means is after paying $550 for these you need to pay an additional $45 for the cable and $50-100 for a case, putting your total outlay at $700 USD to get something that is functionally equivalent to other headphones costing less than $300.
1) Your points to Elian are all valid, but, for me, the biggest issue is that it looks to be made of a material that will attract dirt extremely fast, according to reviewers. This case will rub against the inside of a bag, or be placed on a gross conveyer belt or tub at airports. This needs to be durable and cleanable as well as protect the contents.
It's made of leather, why do you think it'll attract dirt any faster than anything else made of leather, or be less cleanable or durable?
Maybe because I've had real world experience with actual products so I understand the basic concept that not all things work in the exact same way as another based on some basic statement about the material used. Since you lack this basic comprehension you might want to start with a simple search on the different processes for leather used in shoes. You should be able to follow this one.
Nice unnecessary snark, but it doesn't answer my question at all. You said "it looks to be made of a material that will attract dirt extremely fast, according to reviewers". The pictures don't show much detail about the quality of the leather, though I'd say the black, blue and crimson leather look very cleanable to me, (the brown is less clear due to the worn effect, but meh, don't buy that one if it's a concern). What reviews are you talking about?
Try to have a conversation without going out of your way to insult and disparage the other person please.
Try reading a review and looking at images. You should also not being a snarky (to put it lightly) dick (to be more on point) if you can't take it when people dish it back.
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
No, people malign Apple's case because it's a crappy design that doesn't fully protect the device and looks dorky. You're the first and only person I've seen that called it gay. Kind of makes me think that's an issue with you rather than everyone else.
I like it more than Apple's case, but that's not saying much.
What I didn't notice being listed is whether being in that case will put the headphones into an ultra-low power state the way Apple's case does.
I'n in the same boat. It's hard to do much with a case; ultimately it has to cover the device it's protecting so your options are limited. Of course that didn't stop Apple from botching it pretty good... Still, I'd prefer different materials, but to each their own.
I'm sure other options will follow soon, but I fully agree with the other commenters here regarding the added cost. One of the primary uses of ANC headphones like these is for flying which means you need to be able to throw them in a bag and not have to worry about them being protected. The AirPods Max lack not only a 3.5 mm cable to use with an airline sound system but also a case that will fully protect them in a bag. (another problem with the Apple case is that it makes it easy for other stuff in your bag to get caught on the headphones, possibly causing them to get inadvertently pulled out and thrown on the floor.) What this means is after paying $550 for these you need to pay an additional $45 for the cable and $50-100 for a case, putting your total outlay at $700 USD to get something that is functionally equivalent to other headphones costing less than $300.
1) Your points to Elian are all valid, but, for me, the biggest issue is that it looks to be made of a material that will attract dirt extremely fast, according to reviewers. This case will rub against the inside of a bag, or be placed on a gross conveyer belt or tub at airports. This needs to be durable and cleanable as well as protect the contents.
It's made of leather, why do you think it'll attract dirt any faster than anything else made of leather, or be less cleanable or durable?
Maybe because I've had real world experience with actual products so I understand the basic concept that not all things work in the exact same way as another based on some basic statement about the material used. Since you lack this basic comprehension you might want to start with a simple search on the different processes for leather used in shoes. You should be able to follow this one.
Nice unnecessary snark, but it doesn't answer my question at all. You said "it looks to be made of a material that will attract dirt extremely fast, according to reviewers". The pictures don't show much detail about the quality of the leather, though I'd say the black, blue and crimson leather look very cleanable to me, (the brown is less clear due to the worn effect, but meh, don't buy that one if it's a concern). What reviews are you talking about?
Try to have a conversation without going out of your way to insult and disparage the other person please.
Try reading a review and looking at images. You should also not being a snarky (to put it lightly) dick (to be more on point) if you can't take it when people dish it back.
Thanks for nothing then. You just had to put the website of a review and I’d have been glad to look it up. Act like a dick though, you get ignored.
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
Toxic masculinity definitely exists, but you can also swing so far away that you hit toxic anti-masculinity.
Someone watched the Gillette ad too many times....
A year from now the Apple AirPods Max case will look normal.
Other products that got criticized for design: iPhone (GIGANTIC phone!!) iPad (It's just a giant iPod touch!") Apple Watch (LOL!! It's not round!!) AirPods (Looks like toothbrushes!!!!) AirPods Max case (Looks like a bra!!)
*It really doesn't look like a bra any more than an AirPod looks like a toothbrush.
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
You’ve taken this way too far. Everyone has heard the jokes about the design of the cover. Now you want to interject sexual orientation. I guess some people (you) have to continue with divisiveness in conversation no matter what. The Apple designed cover (emphasis on cover) for the AirPods Max is just that... not a case?
Please focus on what the article is about..,a functional case for the AirPods Max versus a half-baked Apple designed cover. This forum can do without your inflammatory comments.
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
Nope - The Apple provided "case" (it's not a case) does not protect the full headphones like our other Sony & Bose headphone cases. That's the problem with Apple's supplied "case".
Perhaps if you have nothing better to offer here, you should post somewhere else?
The only individuals who are maligning Apple’s case are techie man-children, who are offended that the case looks “gay”, only they cannot bring themselves to say that word at all. And they all want to insist that their personal revulsion must be universal.
I have never seen any guy carrying his expensive headphones in their cases in public: they’re either wearing them on the head or around the neck, and then they’re on the desk in prominent view while filming useless 4K unboxing videos. It’s also instructive that no one is balking at the $99 price tag, but perhaps there is no price too high to protect fragile manhood.
Toxic masculinity definitely exists, but you can also swing so far away that you hit toxic anti-masculinity.
Someone watched the Gillette ad too many times....
I bought a pair of Bose noise canceling over the ear headphones for travel and they came with a sturdy and protective carrying case which fit the entire headphones, not just the ear cups. Apple continues to underdeliver on the availability of smart accessories for their own hardware. Why? This stuff is not that complicated. Tim needs to hire an accessories design team so third parties stop eating Apple’s lunch. Any person willing to plop down nearly $600 for these headphones are clearly committed to the purchase. Offer them well-crafted accessories at the same time!
Comments
I'n in the same boat. It's hard to do much with a case; ultimately it has to cover the device it's protecting so your options are limited. Of course that didn't stop Apple from botching it pretty good... Still, I'd prefer different materials, but to each their own.
I'm sure other options will follow soon, but I fully agree with the other commenters here regarding the added cost. One of the primary uses of ANC headphones like these is for flying which means you need to be able to throw them in a bag and not have to worry about them being protected. The AirPods Max lack not only a 3.5 mm cable to use with an airline sound system but also a case that will fully protect them in a bag. (another problem with the Apple case is that it makes it easy for other stuff in your bag to get caught on the headphones, possibly causing them to get inadvertently pulled out and thrown on the floor.) What this means is after paying $550 for these you need to pay an additional $45 for the cable and $50-100 for a case, putting your total outlay at $700 USD to get something that is functionally equivalent to other headphones costing less than $300.
2) I'm personally not that concerned about the lack of a 3.5mm jack, but this price I think they should've included the adapter cable. For those that want BT headphones for a plane and want it to connect to their system there is a nifty AirFly options from Twelve South. I have the Pro version which I have used on a plane as well as with an old iPad that didn't allow for both wired and wireless headphones or two BT headphones to be used at once.
https://stridewise.com/leather-vs-suede-vs-nubuck/
Try to have a conversation without going out of your way to insult and disparage the other person please.
Someone watched the Gillette ad too many times....
A year from now the Apple AirPods Max case will look normal.
Other products that got criticized for design:
iPhone (GIGANTIC phone!!)
iPad (It's just a giant iPod touch!")
Apple Watch (LOL!! It's not round!!)
AirPods (Looks like toothbrushes!!!!)
AirPods Max case (Looks like a bra!!)
*It really doesn't look like a bra any more than an AirPod looks like a toothbrush.
Perhaps if you have nothing better to offer here, you should post somewhere else?