Apple requests return of Apple Silicon Developer Transition Kits, offers $200 toward purch...

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  • Reply 21 of 58
    Developers didn't buy the hardware, they were leased it, along with additional help. For that they were supposed to be under an NDA. Instead we had leaks leaks leading to storms of negative publicity. Remember the doom of how there was not going to be thunderbolt? How about the benchmarks were much better on the production Macs? For developers that needed to really test the ASi Macs, they probably bought the production model a long time ago. For Thunderboldt developers, they had to buy the production Macs to do any testing. Just the speed difference, you would of wanted to switch to the ASi production Macs a long time ago. For those complaing about being without Dev hardware, for three weeks, the production ASi has been out for over two months now. You can still develop on the Intel Macs.

    randominternetpersonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 58
    Just so I'm clear, developers paid for the DTK (and leasing is paying), did a fair bit of Apple's QA on the device for them, and now Apple wants it back?

    I'm kinda in the "why bother" camp?
    narwhalMplsP
  • Reply 23 of 58
    mike1mike1 Posts: 3,316member
    Just so I'm clear, developers paid for the DTK (and leasing is paying), did a fair bit of Apple's QA on the device for them, and now Apple wants it back?

    I'm kinda in the "why bother" camp?

    When you lease a car, you need to give it back at some point.
    randominternetpersonjdb8167cloudguywatto_cobradewme
  • Reply 24 of 58
    I was wondering how the A12Z actually performed as a Mac, the developers were pretty good about keeping mum. Nevertheless, here's one benchmark. The M1 does indeed whip the A12Z, it is by no means "just the iPad Pro chip in a Mac". https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_m1-1804-vs-apple_a12z_bionic-1651

    One interesting bit: the A12Z runs at 1.6ghz, and 2.5ghz in "turbo" mode. The M1 runs at 3.2ghz, and has no turbo mode at all. Possible that the 16" Macbook Pro, iMacs, and Mac Pros will be distinguished by a turbo mode that runs as high as 5ghz? 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 58
    rcfarcfa Posts: 1,124member
    Xed said:
    You could afford the $500 for the DTK but not the $600 for an M1 Mac mini?
    Ludicrous argument. „You can afford $500 but not $1100 ($500+$600)?“

    By extension:
    “You can afford $1100 but not $2420 ($1100+$1320)?“
    “You can afford $2420 but not $5324 ($2420+$2904)?“
    etc. etc.

    In short: anyone who can afford to buy something for a penny should be able to afford the entire world, because at each stage one could ask the same question:

    “So you can afford a 1bn yacht, but not a 2bn sky scraper?“

    Yes, people save up resources to get something relatively expensive, and then their resources are depleted. Buying something expensive doesn’t mean that you have a license to print money and can keep on going buying expensive stuff.

    “You can afford a nice camera. Can’t you afford to buy some decent lenses to go with it?“
    “You bought a nice home, you can’t afford the granite counter tops?“
    “You bought a nice car, you can’t afford a turbo kit?“

    God, how I hate that kind of stupid reasoning. 

    muthuk_vanalingamnarwhalelijahgMplsPcloudguyindieshackbeowulfschmidt
  • Reply 26 of 58
    rcfa said:
    Xed said:
    You could afford the $500 for the DTK but not the $600 for an M1 Mac mini?
    Ludicrous argument. „You can afford $500 but not $1100 ($500+$600)?“

    By extension:
    “You can afford $1100 but not $2420 ($1100+$1320)?“
    “You can afford $2420 but not $5324 ($2420+$2904)?“
    etc. etc.

    In short: anyone who can afford to buy something for a penny should be able to afford the entire world, because at each stage one could ask the same question:

    “So you can afford a 1bn yacht, but not a 2bn sky scraper?“

    Yes, people save up resources to get something relatively expensive, and then their resources are depleted. Buying something expensive doesn’t mean that you have a license to print money and can keep on going buying expensive stuff.

    “You can afford a nice camera. Can’t you afford to buy some decent lenses to go with it?“
    “You bought a nice home, you can’t afford the granite counter tops?“
    “You bought a nice car, you can’t afford a turbo kit?“

    God, how I hate that kind of stupid reasoning. 

    Your reasoning fails completely in that Apple was leasing the DTK, with zero promise of a discount or free hardware. At some point you have to buy the production hardware. If you can't afford both the DTK and production hardware, then you shouldn't of leased the DTK. Apple owns the DTK, even though developers have leased it. Basic budgeting and reading the terms.
    randominternetpersonjdb8167watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 58
    Bit of a dick move by apple 
    narwhalelijahgmuthuk_vanalingamindieshack
  • Reply 28 of 58
    XedXed Posts: 2,678member
    rcfa said:
    Xed said:
    You could afford the $500 for the DTK but not the $600 for an M1 Mac mini?
    Ludicrous argument. „You can afford $500 but not $1100 ($500+$600)?“

    By extension:
    “You can afford $1100 but not $2420 ($1100+$1320)?“
    “You can afford $2420 but not $5324 ($2420+$2904)?“
    etc. etc.

    In short: anyone who can afford to buy something for a penny should be able to afford the entire world, because at each stage one could ask the same question:

    “So you can afford a 1bn yacht, but not a 2bn sky scraper?“

    Yes, people save up resources to get something relatively expensive, and then their resources are depleted. Buying something expensive doesn’t mean that you have a license to print money and can keep on going buying expensive stuff.

    “You can afford a nice camera. Can’t you afford to buy some decent lenses to go with it?“
    “You bought a nice home, you can’t afford the granite counter tops?“
    “You bought a nice car, you can’t afford a turbo kit?“

    God, how I hate that kind of stupid reasoning. 
    As already stated, if a $500 short term lease was already stretching the wallet and you still can’t earn enough money as a developer with your updated apps then it sounds like you shouldn’t have leases a test Mac from Apple with the assumption that they were going to give you a more expensive Mac the next year. Talk about ludicrous expectations. Eesh!
    randominternetpersonFidonet127watto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 58
    jdb8167jdb8167 Posts: 626member
    Everyone talking about how Apple was more generous to developers in the past are forgetting what it used to cost to be in the developer program. If I remember correctly it was $1200 (don’t hold me to that). That gave Apple a lot more leeway to be generous to developers. 

    Apple was under no obligation to give developers anything other than the DTK (edit: as a temporary rental) for the $500. It was stated very clearly in the agreement for the Universal Quick Start program. Any expectation of free hardware or anything else was always wishful thinking. 

    Edit: I looked up some old invoices and the price for the ADC Select program was $499 in 1999 and for the Premier program was $3499. I think you had to be in at least the Select program to be offered a Intel development kit.
    edited February 2021 Fidonet127auxiotenthousandthings
  • Reply 30 of 58
    Why are people complaining? Is there some compelling argument that I’ve missed in all this?

    Literally the only thing Apple has changed here is providing the voucher.
    jdb8167Fidonet127watto_cobra
  • Reply 31 of 58
    XedXed Posts: 2,678member
    jdb8167 said:
    Everyone talking about how Apple was more generous to developers in the past are forgetting what it used to cost to be in the developer program. If I remember correctly it was $1200 (don’t hold me to that). That gave Apple a lot more leeway to be generous to developers. 

    Apple was under no obligation to give developers anything other than the DTK (edit: as a temporary rental) for the $500. It was stated very clearly in the agreement for the Universal Quick Start program. Any expectation of free hardware or anything else was always wishful thinking. 

    Edit: I looked up some old invoices and the price for the ADC Select program was $499 in 1999 and for the Premier program was $3499. I think you had to be in at least the Select program to be offered a Intel development kit.
    I had forgotten that Apple used to charge a lot more money to be a developer. And this was under Jobs so that Cook statement from someone about how Cook is greedy and Jobs was the altruistic savior of humanity  doesn't seem to hold up.

    PS: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall when IOS development came on the scene they charged for separately for both iOS and (then) Mac OS X dev kits.
    jdb8167watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 58
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,744member
    Xed said:
    jdb8167 said:
    Everyone talking about how Apple was more generous to developers in the past are forgetting what it used to cost to be in the developer program. If I remember correctly it was $1200 (don’t hold me to that). That gave Apple a lot more leeway to be generous to developers. 

    Apple was under no obligation to give developers anything other than the DTK (edit: as a temporary rental) for the $500. It was stated very clearly in the agreement for the Universal Quick Start program. Any expectation of free hardware or anything else was always wishful thinking. 

    Edit: I looked up some old invoices and the price for the ADC Select program was $499 in 1999 and for the Premier program was $3499. I think you had to be in at least the Select program to be offered a Intel development kit.
    I had forgotten that Apple used to charge a lot more money to be a developer. And this was under Jobs so that Cook statement from someone about how Cook is greedy and Jobs was the altruistic savior of humanity  doesn't seem to hold up.

    PS: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall when IOS development came on the scene they charged for separately for both iOS and (then) Mac OS X dev kits.
    I don't remember there being an iOS dev kit.  Only preview versions of Xcode which contained the iOS SDK which could be used to do development on existing iPhones.  Remember that there were no 3rd party apps and no developer SDK for the first version of the iPhone.  So developers already had access to the hardware when they released the SDK.

    And IIRC, it was iOS development which caused the developer membership price to come down.

    Edit: Found a live blog from the first iOS SDK announcement.  It was a separate download which went into the existing version of Xcode.  But you had to download a beta version of iOS onto your phone.
    edited February 2021 jdb8167watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 58
    XedXed Posts: 2,678member
    auxio said:
    Xed said:
    jdb8167 said:
    Everyone talking about how Apple was more generous to developers in the past are forgetting what it used to cost to be in the developer program. If I remember correctly it was $1200 (don’t hold me to that). That gave Apple a lot more leeway to be generous to developers. 

    Apple was under no obligation to give developers anything other than the DTK (edit: as a temporary rental) for the $500. It was stated very clearly in the agreement for the Universal Quick Start program. Any expectation of free hardware or anything else was always wishful thinking. 

    Edit: I looked up some old invoices and the price for the ADC Select program was $499 in 1999 and for the Premier program was $3499. I think you had to be in at least the Select program to be offered a Intel development kit.
    I had forgotten that Apple used to charge a lot more money to be a developer. And this was under Jobs so that Cook statement from someone about how Cook is greedy and Jobs was the altruistic savior of humanity  doesn't seem to hold up.

    PS: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall when IOS development came on the scene they charged for separately for both iOS and (then) Mac OS X dev kits.
    I don't remember there being an iOS dev kit.  Only preview versions of Xcode which contained the iOS SDK which could be used to do development on existing iPhones.  Remember that there were no 3rd party apps and no developer SDK for the first version of the iPhone.  So developers already had access to the hardware when they released the SDK.

    And IIRC, it was iOS development which caused the developer membership price to come down.

    Edit: Found a live blog from the first iOS SDK announcement.  It was a separate download which went into the existing version of Xcode.  But you had to download a beta version of iOS onto your phone.
    I found a couple Wikipedia pages that back up my memory of it being $99 for the iOS Developer Program and $99 for the Mac Developer Program, until they merged into the single program for $99. Before that I recall paying $500 per year for the Mac Developer Program, but it did come with some stickers and a T-shirt. LOL

    There was even a version of Xcode, 4.0, I think, that could be downloaded from the Mac App Store for $5.
    Fidonet127jdb8167watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 58
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,744member
    Xed said:
    auxio said:
    Xed said:
    jdb8167 said:
    Everyone talking about how Apple was more generous to developers in the past are forgetting what it used to cost to be in the developer program. If I remember correctly it was $1200 (don’t hold me to that). That gave Apple a lot more leeway to be generous to developers. 

    Apple was under no obligation to give developers anything other than the DTK (edit: as a temporary rental) for the $500. It was stated very clearly in the agreement for the Universal Quick Start program. Any expectation of free hardware or anything else was always wishful thinking. 

    Edit: I looked up some old invoices and the price for the ADC Select program was $499 in 1999 and for the Premier program was $3499. I think you had to be in at least the Select program to be offered a Intel development kit.
    I had forgotten that Apple used to charge a lot more money to be a developer. And this was under Jobs so that Cook statement from someone about how Cook is greedy and Jobs was the altruistic savior of humanity  doesn't seem to hold up.

    PS: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall when IOS development came on the scene they charged for separately for both iOS and (then) Mac OS X dev kits.
    I don't remember there being an iOS dev kit.  Only preview versions of Xcode which contained the iOS SDK which could be used to do development on existing iPhones.  Remember that there were no 3rd party apps and no developer SDK for the first version of the iPhone.  So developers already had access to the hardware when they released the SDK.

    And IIRC, it was iOS development which caused the developer membership price to come down.

    Edit: Found a live blog from the first iOS SDK announcement.  It was a separate download which went into the existing version of Xcode.  But you had to download a beta version of iOS onto your phone.
    I found a couple Wikipedia pages that back up my memory of it being $99 for the iOS Developer Program and $99 for the Mac Developer Program, until they merged into the single program for $99. Before that I recall paying $500 per year for the Mac Developer Program, but it did come with some stickers and a T-shirt. LOL
    Yeah, that's what I remember too: when the iOS SDK was released, it became a lot cheaper.  So all the people complaining about how Apple gave free iMacs during the Intel transition (which I'm fairly certain were only for Premier level members) don't realize that developers were also paying a heck of a lot more.
    Fidonet127Xedjdb8167tenthousandthingswatto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 58
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,965member
    There's clearly nothing illegal with this arrangement, but I agree with the others that Apple could and should treat developers better. I wasn't aware that the A12 Minis were leased, but essentially you are charging close to the price of a new computer ($500 vs $700) for one year's worth of use, and they're not even providing an exchange program to facilitate people getting new machines. 

    As others have pointed out, quality software is essential to the Mac ecosystem. Apple already created some hurdles for developers by switching processors. It seems the least they could do would be to apply the $500 towards a new M1 system.
    elijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 36 of 58
    MplsP said:
    I wasn't aware that the A12 Minis were leased, but essentially you are charging close to the price of a new computer ($500 vs $700) for one year's worth of use...
    And Apple is asking for them back early, 7 months into the lease. Apple should sell devs a replacement Mac mini M1 16 GB at a discount (to compensate for the shortened lease) BEFORE requiring the DTKs be sent back.
    elijahgcloudguy
  • Reply 37 of 58
    Nothing I wouldn't have expected from Apple - I got the letter yesterday. Apple squeezes every department for $$$ who in turn squeeze the public and developers. You could certainly argue that all companies are like this, with Apple it's particularly so. I was hoping for a $500 voucher, they'll probably have us pay for shipping too
    cloudguyelijahgnarwhal
  • Reply 38 of 58
    You can still develop on the Intel Macs.

    Not a developer I see. Why do so many people who have never been developers presume to know so much about those who are? (I am a former developer myself by the way.)
    elijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 39 of 58
    I have absolutely, positively no desire or inclination to defend Apple here BUT ...

    1. Joining the developer program was 100% optional.
    2. $500 is a nominal fee for a veteran macOS/iOS developer who should be making $100,000 a year. I spent WAY MORE than that for hardware that I needed for my job and wasn't making anywhere near what Apple platform devs get. 
    3. If you are a struggling/independent macOS/iOS developer who can't afford $500 in hardware costs you shouldn't have gotten the dev kit to begin with ... and you probably should be looking into a career change (as in trying to get hired by the many companies looking for talent to develop their iOS/macOS apps). Not trying to be a jerk, but rather just that the independent/contract dev game is very difficult and is getting harder, not easier. 
    4. This was a lease. The only legit beef that anyone has is that Apple is terminating the lease early. Even there, they are giving you 40% of the lease cost back. It is only good for macOS hardware? No, Apple isn't going to give you $200 to spend on a Chromebook or Samsung tablet so you can go develop for those platforms in a huff to get back at them.
    5. You don't have an M1 Mac right now? You are a dev. You should have ordered a 16 GB M1 Mac Mini the day the preorders went up. If you couldn't afford it, see 2. and 3.
    6. All right. You already have an M1 Mac Mini and an M1 MacBook Air/Pro so you don't need the $200 because you don't need/want anymore Apple hardware right now. OK ... so why do you still need the dev kit anyway? You already have a pair of Macs THAT ACTUALLY HAVE THE M1 CHIP (which the dev kit ... doesn't). 
    7. Devs are rock stars and deserve to be entitled or they will go elsewhere. I do not disagree. As someone who owns several Android and ChromeOS devices I say COME TO MY PLATFORM PLEASE!!! WE NEED YOU BADLY! Otherwise ... look. There are 1 billion iPhones in the wild. Apple had a record year last year selling Macs. Apple sold more iPads last year than any time since 2011-2014 when people still thought they were going to revolutionize computing. With all due respect to Samsung as well as FitBit/Garmin/Wear OS/cheap indistinguishable Chinese fitness trackers, the Apple Watch IS the smartwatch market. Apple TV ... well 4 out of 5 ain't bad! Apple has reached self-sustaining critical mass. They don't need you. If you rock stars move on, there are 100 talented guys with a guitar and a dream - or with a master of science degree in computer science/engineering and 5 years experience as it were - ready to take your place. Some people claim "millennials only use iPhones/iPads/Macs and wouldn't be caught dead with a Windows/Android/ChromeOS device." I am thinking that this is wildly overstated - they are just talking about their own kids and their kids' friends and have no clue about the other 90% of the population - but if even a fraction of this is true then the previous generation's "rock stars" are going to be replaced without Apple having to lift a finger because there is a whole class of people who spent their formative years on iPads and iPhones in the 2010s that are entering the workforce right now and have no concept of coding on anything else. 

    Look, 99 times out of 100 I get sick of the developer bashing that goes on here by people who couldn't write a Hello World program in Javascript to get themselves off a desert island with an erupting volcano. But this is the ONE TIME that I have to say that folks are making a mountain out of a molehill on this. If you are actually a dev you shouldn't have any need for this dev kit running an outdated iPad chip anyway. You should have a 16 GB M1 Mac Mini/MacBook Air/MacBook Pro by now. If you don't, then you have bigger issues going on than a dev kit that you ... didn't actually NEED and probably shouldn't have never gotten in the first place (again, not trying to be a jerk but still) that you are better off tending to. So ship Apple's hardware back, get your $200 coupon and order yourself an M1 Mac off Apple's website.
    Xedmuthuk_vanalingamFidonet127
  • Reply 40 of 58
    cloudguy said:
    You can still develop on the Intel Macs.

    Not a developer I see. Why do so many people who have never been developers presume to know so much about those who are? (I am a former developer myself by the way.)
    I said develop on, not testing. If they waited for the end of the lease to get a production ASi Mac, then can continue to code using Xcode on Intel Macs.  Xcode still works on Intel Macs. Those Intel Macs are not obsolete to code on, especially not the Mac Pros. You are not going to have someone who needs a Mac Pro to fit their workflow in to the current line of ASi Macs. I love my ASi Mac Mini and don’t see why anyone in production would wait to get a real ASi Mac to test on. The fact remains, the Intel Macs are still useful for developing. 
    Xed
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