Arizona bill that could force Apple App Store to allow third-party payments one step close...

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 51
    danvm said:
    foad said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Odd that games consoles care excluded. What’s the reasoning behind that?
    Maybe becase consoles are not multipurpose devices, or because customers are not forced to use the app store to purchase games.  Also, what @foad posted could be a possibility.  Who knows...
    You are forced to use Sony and Microsoft’s distribution methods for digital purchases though. So if you buy the digital versions of the Xbox or the PS5, you’re required to use their payment methods and you can’t build in an alternate payment flow. The initial versions of these bills were pushing for alternate App Stores and still had the carve out for game consoles. Heck - Epic’s suing to get an alternate App Store. They state it in their filings. The reason they keep calling it a “tax”, is because legislators and users have a very specific reaction to the word. They explicitly ignore what they get out of using the platforms. These companies have the expectation that Apple and Google should develop the APIs that they hook into for free. 

    All this stuff is just a money/power grab. Let’s take Spotify. Where is their supposed harm? They are the biggest streaming service by a long shot - and still growing at a crazy clip. They have been able to buy up all these various companies and now are becoming a dominant player in the podcast market. Tencent/Epic are two of the largest games companies in the world. Epic steals content constantly that gets put into Fortnite and they fight tooth and nail to not pay the original content creators. I can keep going on, but this isn’t about “app fairness”. It’s about future dominance. 
    The thing is that consoles don't force customers to digital purchases.  MS, Sony and Nintendo consoles still have support for physical media.  Maybe that is one of the reasons they were excluded.  From a developer POV, I think there is no difference between the iOS / Android digital store and a console digital store.  

    And I agree with you, this is an issue of money and power, and not necessary app fairness.  
    The only reason they were excluded is that Epic doesn't care about those platforms, so they excluded them from their legislation to avoid having Sony and Microsoft oppose it as well. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 51
    d_2 said:
    flydog said:

    How can they regulate what is clearly interstate commerce? 
    States can regulate most interstate commerce.

    Jesus, does that really need to be stated?  Is that not obvious from being alive on the planet for more than 10 years?  
    How do you know the poster’s actual name is Jesus?

    In any case, your stupid commentary not withstanding, it’s *not* obvious.

    http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/statecommerce.htm
    Did you read the very first sentence of that article?  "The Commerce Clause is a grant of power to Congress, not an express limitation on the power of the states to regulate the economy."
  • Reply 43 of 51
    ValdhorValdhor Posts: 3unconfirmed, member
    My thought is “Sure you can have a different payment option”. Note that the distribution fee will be 30%.
    foadwatto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 51
    jd_in_sbjd_in_sb Posts: 1,600member
    Does the Coalition for App Fairness consider the bill fair to Apple? Fairness is a two way street. 
    foadwatto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 51
    I see no reason why companies like EPIC won't set up a PO box in Arizona...I'd be surprised if EPIC hasn't already set up faux production houses in AZ in order to comply. I know the text states a substantial amount of in state work...but that is easily met...especially when you are writing the laws--as EPIC did here--and paying the legislators...as everybody is doing here.

    This is strangely similar to when internet companies were balking at the fees ISPs were charging when suddenly realizing popular companies used so much bandwidth...and trying to avoid becoming a utility...which ISPs should actually be. Europe got ISPs right and we didn't. But I digress...

    The difference here is Apple has created the infrastructure and has listed clear parameters and amounts charged...and has actually lowered those amounts for most of the users. High volume users like EPIC are wanting to pay less--like the rich wanting to pay less in taxes--simply because they 'move so much traffic' (Im supposing--its all about money). This idea that someone can build something, someone else can use that thing to get rich and popular, and then decide they no longer want to pay for the privilege of the help they received on the way up...it is the american mindset.
    foadwatto_cobra
  • Reply 46 of 51
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,778member
    This makes no sense. If gaming app consoles don't have to allow third-party billing (as if, lol), then neither should mobile app consoles.
    foadwatto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 51
    urashidurashid Posts: 127member
    danvm said:
    foad said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Odd that games consoles care excluded. What’s the reasoning behind that?
    Maybe becase consoles are not multipurpose devices, or because customers are not forced to use the app store to purchase games.  Also, what @foad posted could be a possibility.  Who knows...
    You are forced to use Sony and Microsoft’s distribution methods for digital purchases though. So if you buy the digital versions of the Xbox or the PS5, you’re required to use their payment methods and you can’t build in an alternate payment flow. The initial versions of these bills were pushing for alternate App Stores and still had the carve out for game consoles. Heck - Epic’s suing to get an alternate App Store. They state it in their filings. The reason they keep calling it a “tax”, is because legislators and users have a very specific reaction to the word. They explicitly ignore what they get out of using the platforms. These companies have the expectation that Apple and Google should develop the APIs that they hook into for free. 

    All this stuff is just a money/power grab. Let’s take Spotify. Where is their supposed harm? They are the biggest streaming service by a long shot - and still growing at a crazy clip. They have been able to buy up all these various companies and now are becoming a dominant player in the podcast market. Tencent/Epic are two of the largest games companies in the world. Epic steals content constantly that gets put into Fortnite and they fight tooth and nail to not pay the original content creators. I can keep going on, but this isn’t about “app fairness”. It’s about future dominance. 
    The thing is that consoles don't force customers to digital purchases.  MS, Sony and Nintendo consoles still have support for physical media.  Maybe that is one of the reasons they were excluded.  From a developer POV, I think there is no difference between the iOS / Android digital store and a console digital store.  

    And I agree with you, this is an issue of money and power, and not necessary app fairness.  
    The only reason they were excluded is that Epic doesn't care about those platforms, so they excluded them from their legislation to avoid having Sony and Microsoft oppose it as well. 
    I think you mean Epic cares too much about the gaming console platforms.  From a 2019 survey of "battle royale" gamers, 71 percent of players mainly played on consoles, compared to just 17 percent on PC and 12 percent on mobile.  Maybe Epic is just testing waters with the small potatoes mobile platforms before going after the gaming consoles (I highly doubt it though).


    watto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 51
    So they want App makers to have free access to the store at no cost? 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 49 of 51
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,024member
    danvm said:
    foad said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Odd that games consoles care excluded. What’s the reasoning behind that?
    Maybe becase consoles are not multipurpose devices, or because customers are not forced to use the app store to purchase games.  Also, what @foad posted could be a possibility.  Who knows...
    You are forced to use Sony and Microsoft’s distribution methods for digital purchases though. So if you buy the digital versions of the Xbox or the PS5, you’re required to use their payment methods and you can’t build in an alternate payment flow. The initial versions of these bills were pushing for alternate App Stores and still had the carve out for game consoles. Heck - Epic’s suing to get an alternate App Store. They state it in their filings. The reason they keep calling it a “tax”, is because legislators and users have a very specific reaction to the word. They explicitly ignore what they get out of using the platforms. These companies have the expectation that Apple and Google should develop the APIs that they hook into for free. 

    All this stuff is just a money/power grab. Let’s take Spotify. Where is their supposed harm? They are the biggest streaming service by a long shot - and still growing at a crazy clip. They have been able to buy up all these various companies and now are becoming a dominant player in the podcast market. Tencent/Epic are two of the largest games companies in the world. Epic steals content constantly that gets put into Fortnite and they fight tooth and nail to not pay the original content creators. I can keep going on, but this isn’t about “app fairness”. It’s about future dominance. 
    The thing is that consoles don't force customers to digital purchases.  MS, Sony and Nintendo consoles still have support for physical media.  Maybe that is one of the reasons they were excluded.  From a developer POV, I think there is no difference between the iOS / Android digital store and a console digital store.  

    And I agree with you, this is an issue of money and power, and not necessary app fairness.  
    As far as I know, Fortnight players can not run down to the nearest Best Buy and buy a cool virtual outfit and fancy pick ax off their shelves. They are forced to use the stores in their game console for in-app purchases of virtual goods. And this bill only concerns in-app purchases. So it's a moot point that they can install games on disc, purchased at a retail store, anyway. 

    Another make no sense excuse from Sweeney, is that game console makers sell their hardware at a loss (or near loss) and make their money from the sale of games. So they are justified in charging a 30% commission, to make up for what little profit they get selling their game consoles. While a business like Apple that makes huge profit from selling their hardware, do not need to make money from developers that are using their platform. Thus Apple is being being greedy. This is BS. No one forces Microsoft or Sony or Nintendo to sell their hardware at a loss (or near loss). And even if they were to make a decent profit selling their hardware, game console makers would still charge a 30% commission because it's what most in the industry accepts as standard. Plus, the ..... give away the razor and sell the blades ...... has been proven to be a good business plan to make huge profits. And I haven't heard of Sweeney lowering the price of virtual goods with the in-app purchases in Fortnight, because of the huge profits he has made with that one game alone. 
    edited March 2021 foadwatto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 51
    foadfoad Posts: 717member
    danvm said:
    foad said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Odd that games consoles care excluded. What’s the reasoning behind that?
    Maybe becase consoles are not multipurpose devices, or because customers are not forced to use the app store to purchase games.  Also, what @foad posted could be a possibility.  Who knows...
    You are forced to use Sony and Microsoft’s distribution methods for digital purchases though. So if you buy the digital versions of the Xbox or the PS5, you’re required to use their payment methods and you can’t build in an alternate payment flow. The initial versions of these bills were pushing for alternate App Stores and still had the carve out for game consoles. Heck - Epic’s suing to get an alternate App Store. They state it in their filings. The reason they keep calling it a “tax”, is because legislators and users have a very specific reaction to the word. They explicitly ignore what they get out of using the platforms. These companies have the expectation that Apple and Google should develop the APIs that they hook into for free. 

    All this stuff is just a money/power grab. Let’s take Spotify. Where is their supposed harm? They are the biggest streaming service by a long shot - and still growing at a crazy clip. They have been able to buy up all these various companies and now are becoming a dominant player in the podcast market. Tencent/Epic are two of the largest games companies in the world. Epic steals content constantly that gets put into Fortnite and they fight tooth and nail to not pay the original content creators. I can keep going on, but this isn’t about “app fairness”. It’s about future dominance. 
    The thing is that consoles don't force customers to digital purchases.  MS, Sony and Nintendo consoles still have support for physical media.  Maybe that is one of the reasons they were excluded.  From a developer POV, I think there is no difference between the iOS / Android digital store and a console digital store.  

    And I agree with you, this is an issue of money and power, and not necessary app fairness.  
    The only reason they were excluded is that Epic doesn't care about those platforms, so they excluded them from their legislation to avoid having Sony and Microsoft oppose it as well. 
    That and the fact that Sony invested $250 million into Epic. Why would Epic mess with their own shareholder.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 51 of 51
    foadfoad Posts: 717member
    urashid said:
    danvm said:
    foad said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Odd that games consoles care excluded. What’s the reasoning behind that?
    Maybe becase consoles are not multipurpose devices, or because customers are not forced to use the app store to purchase games.  Also, what @foad posted could be a possibility.  Who knows...
    You are forced to use Sony and Microsoft’s distribution methods for digital purchases though. So if you buy the digital versions of the Xbox or the PS5, you’re required to use their payment methods and you can’t build in an alternate payment flow. The initial versions of these bills were pushing for alternate App Stores and still had the carve out for game consoles. Heck - Epic’s suing to get an alternate App Store. They state it in their filings. The reason they keep calling it a “tax”, is because legislators and users have a very specific reaction to the word. They explicitly ignore what they get out of using the platforms. These companies have the expectation that Apple and Google should develop the APIs that they hook into for free. 

    All this stuff is just a money/power grab. Let’s take Spotify. Where is their supposed harm? They are the biggest streaming service by a long shot - and still growing at a crazy clip. They have been able to buy up all these various companies and now are becoming a dominant player in the podcast market. Tencent/Epic are two of the largest games companies in the world. Epic steals content constantly that gets put into Fortnite and they fight tooth and nail to not pay the original content creators. I can keep going on, but this isn’t about “app fairness”. It’s about future dominance. 
    The thing is that consoles don't force customers to digital purchases.  MS, Sony and Nintendo consoles still have support for physical media.  Maybe that is one of the reasons they were excluded.  From a developer POV, I think there is no difference between the iOS / Android digital store and a console digital store.  

    And I agree with you, this is an issue of money and power, and not necessary app fairness.  
    The only reason they were excluded is that Epic doesn't care about those platforms, so they excluded them from their legislation to avoid having Sony and Microsoft oppose it as well. 
    I think you mean Epic cares too much about the gaming console platforms.  From a 2019 survey of "battle royale" gamers, 71 percent of players mainly played on consoles, compared to just 17 percent on PC and 12 percent on mobile.  Maybe Epic is just testing waters with the small potatoes mobile platforms before going after the gaming consoles (I highly doubt it though).


    Epic isn't going to mess with the game consoles, ever.
    urashidwatto_cobra
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