Renesas chip foundry fire could harm Apple's supply chain

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 39
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    gatorguy said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    It is? According to what's factually reported only around 10 percent of the entire's world’s chip production comes from SMIC, owned in part (at least) by the Chinese government, and the company you remember reading Trump ordered banned from the US marketplace in 2020. The shortages on our own supplies would have been far less than 10%. AFAICT it was the only Chinese chip fab banned from the US unless you have evidence to the contrary. If so then your blame seems misplaced.

    But why were they banned?
    The U.S. government restricted American companies from selling to SMIC, citing its ties to the Chinese military. 

    So, Trump, in his cold war with China, shut down at least one factory that made the kind of chips we need (based on his usual bullshit) -- and now you whine that we don't have the chips we need.

    Got it.
    LOL George, so now you'll try projection? Read your own posts, the only one whining seems to be you. I personally could not care less if we have a current chip shortage, I have all the ones I need at the moment. This shortage comes with a big plus if anything: Now the US will make producing our own on our own shores a priority. Win-win. 
    edited March 2021 tmay
  • Reply 22 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    It is? According to what's factually reported only around 10 percent of the entire's world’s chip production comes from SMIC, owned in part (at least) by the Chinese government, and the company you remember reading Trump ordered banned from the US marketplace in 2020. The shortages on our own supplies would have been far less than 10%. AFAICT it was the only Chinese chip fab banned from the US unless you have evidence to the contrary. If so then your blame seems misplaced.

    But why were they banned?
    The U.S. government restricted American companies from selling to SMIC, citing its ties to the Chinese military. 

    So, Trump, in his cold war with China, shut down at least one factory that made the kind of chips we need (based on his usual bullshit) -- and now you whine that we don't have the chips we need.

    Got it.
    LOL George, so now you'll try projection? Read your own posts, the only one whining seems to be you. I personally could not care less if we have a current chip shortage, I have all the ones I need at the moment. This shortage comes with a big plus if anything: Now the US will make producing our own on our own shores a priority. Win-win. 

    LOL...  So, when your argument is reduced to the bullshit it is, you resort to insults....
    And the proverbial "I really don't care!".  

    Typical
    edited March 2021 tzeshan
  • Reply 23 of 39
    roakeroake Posts: 809member
    gatorguy said:
    gatorguy said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    It is? According to what's factually reported only around 10 percent of the entire's world’s chip production comes from SMIC, owned in part (at least) by the Chinese government, and the company you remember reading Trump ordered banned from the US marketplace in 2020. The shortages on our own supplies would have been far less than 10%. AFAICT it was the only Chinese chip fab banned from the US unless you have evidence to the contrary. If so then your blame seems misplaced.

    But why were they banned?
    The U.S. government restricted American companies from selling to SMIC, citing its ties to the Chinese military. 

    So, Trump, in his cold war with China, shut down at least one factory that made the kind of chips we need (based on his usual bullshit) -- and now you whine that we don't have the chips we need.

    Got it.
    LOL George, so now you'll try projection? Read your own posts, the only one whining seems to be you. I personally could not care less if we have a current chip shortage, I have all the ones I need at the moment. This shortage comes with a big plus if anything: Now the US will make producing our own on our own shores a priority. Win-win. 

    LOL...  So, when your argument is reduced to the bullshit it is, you resort to insults....
    And the proverbial "I really don't care!".  

    Typical
    “I don’t really care” isn’t really a proverb.
  • Reply 24 of 39
    roakeroake Posts: 809member
    gatorguy said:
    lkrupp said:
    gatorguy said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. ... The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.


    You aren't following news. Biden has already begun addressing it.
     https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/24/biden-signs-executive-order-to-address-chip-shortage-through-a-supply-chain-review.html
    Biden and his executive orders can’t do a goddamn thing to relieve the chip shortage. It’s all just chest thumping by the new alpha male gorilla in the Whitehouse. And the politicians CAUSED the chip shortage in the first place with their draconian lockdowns. 
    "President Joe Biden said on Wednesday he would seek $37 billion in funding for legislation to supercharge chip manufacturing in the United States as a shortfall of semiconductors has forced U.S. automakers and other manufacturers to cut production."

    It's not just an executive order to "study it".
    $5 billion of that would go to the fab industry with significant strings attached.  The other $32 billion would go to Nancy Pelosi’s completely unrelated pet projects.
  • Reply 25 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    roake said:
    gatorguy said:
    lkrupp said:
    gatorguy said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. ... The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.


    You aren't following news. Biden has already begun addressing it.
     https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/24/biden-signs-executive-order-to-address-chip-shortage-through-a-supply-chain-review.html
    Biden and his executive orders can’t do a goddamn thing to relieve the chip shortage. It’s all just chest thumping by the new alpha male gorilla in the Whitehouse. And the politicians CAUSED the chip shortage in the first place with their draconian lockdowns. 
    "President Joe Biden said on Wednesday he would seek $37 billion in funding for legislation to supercharge chip manufacturing in the United States as a shortfall of semiconductors has forced U.S. automakers and other manufacturers to cut production."

    It's not just an executive order to "study it".
    $5 billion of that would go to the fab industry with significant strings attached.  The other $32 billion would go to Nancy Pelosi’s completely unrelated pet projects.

    That Nancy Pelosi person must be really rich -- it seems every penny our government spends goes to her!
    At least if you believe the haters.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 26 of 39
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,241member
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.
  • Reply 27 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
  • Reply 28 of 39
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,241member
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.

    edited March 2021
  • Reply 29 of 39
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.

    Let me explain if you can understand. Trump and Republicans try to stop China's economic growth. But China was already the largest consumer of semiconductors. Many chip companies lowered their long time capital expenditures. But the high tech growth did not stop. 5G, AI, and auto industry keep increasing their demand for chips. Now Biden is in office, the pandemic is nearing an end, the world economy is recovering, as a result the chip industry could not satisfy the demand. 
  • Reply 30 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.


    LOL...  Why is hard for you to understand that when an idiot locks production at a factory you get fewer chips?
    He did the same with laptops:   shuttered Chinese factories making laptops -- so U.S. kids that he forced into cyberschool couldn't do their school work.
    That was Trump's whole purpose:  block Chinese production using any means at his disposal.  Unfortunately, he failed to realize how much America depends on access to those products.

    Oh, I forgot, you're a China hater.   Logic need not apply.
    Just the whining when Americans end up taking it on the chin as a result of these senseless, baseless attacks on China.


    edited March 2021
  • Reply 31 of 39
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,241member
    tzeshan said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.

    Let me explain if you can understand. Trump and Republicans try to stop China's economic growth. But China was already the largest consumer of semiconductors. Many chip companies lowered their long time capital expenditures. But the high tech growth did not stop. 5G, AI, and auto industry keep increasing their demand for chips. Now Biden is in office, the pandemic is nearing an end, the world economy is recovering, as a result the chip industry could not satisfy the demand. 
    Again, the current shortages have nothing to do with Trump restricting technology transfer to China. That's all about future 10 nm and under foundries, but I do agree that the restrictions will have an impact on access to sub 10nm components by Chinese companies.

    Still, and I have to keep pointing this out, if the U.S. and its allies see a threat from Xi Jinping and authoritarian China, why would they allow technology transfer that would absolutely be militarized?

  • Reply 32 of 39
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,241member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.


    LOL...  Why is hard for you to understand that when an idiot locks production at a factory you get fewer chips?
    He did the same with laptops:   shuttered Chinese factories making laptops -- so U.S. kids that he forced into cyberschool couldn't do their school work.
    That was Trump's whole purpose:  block Chinese production using any means at his disposal.  Unfortunately, he failed to realize how much America depends on access to those products.

    Oh, I forgot, you're a China hater.   Logic need not apply.
    Just the whining when Americans end up taking it on the chin as a result of these senseless, baseless attacks on China.



    "HONG KONG—China’s largest maker of computing chips said restrictions placed by the Trump administration would crimp its pace of growth, despite the booming demand for semiconductors creating a global shortage.


    Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp. in its first earnings report since it was added to a U.S. export blacklist on Dec. 18 on Friday said its revenue rose 17% to $981 million in the fourth quarter from a year earlier. The Shanghai-based company said it expects growth in revenue to slow to single-digit percentage points in the coming year. SMIC executives lamented that if it weren’t for the U.S. restrictions, the company could have better capitalized on the global chip shortage that has benefited other manufacturers. 

    “After 20 years of independent technology development, market expansion, capacity building and the talent training, the company could have seized this year’s rare market opportunity and achieved rapid growth,” said Haijun Zhao, the company’s co-chief executive. If not for the U.S. actions and other risks, “SMIC could have maintained last year’s rapid growth momentum,” he said."


    Trump didn't shut down SMIC. They blocked SMIC from expansion, especially to new nodes. So companies are shifting to sources in the West, who will benefit from the expansion in demand without the worry of militarization that we have with China.

    Looks like a win-win for the rest of the world.

    Good.


    edited March 2021
  • Reply 33 of 39
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.


    LOL...  Why is hard for you to understand that when an idiot locks production at a factory you get fewer chips?
    He did the same with laptops:   shuttered Chinese factories making laptops -- so U.S. kids that he forced into cyberschool couldn't do their school work.
    That was Trump's whole purpose:  block Chinese production using any means at his disposal.  Unfortunately, he failed to realize how much America depends on access to those products.

    Oh, I forgot, you're a China hater.   Logic need not apply.
    Just the whining when Americans end up taking it on the chin as a result of these senseless, baseless attacks on China.


    Trump didn't shut down SMIC. They blocked SMIC from expansion, especially to new nodes. So companies are shifting to sources to the West, who will benefit from the expansion in demand without the worry of militarization that we have with China.

    Looks like a win-win for the rest of the world.

    Good.


    TMay, you're wasting your breath with George IMHO. I don't recall him ever admitting someone else might be right and he was mistaken. Never so much as  "Thank You, I didn't know that" either as far as I know. He seems to have his own agenda and being accurate is not essential to whatever it is that he hopes to accomplish.

    Fuggedaboutit. Time is better spent on something else IMO.
    edited March 2021 muthuk_vanalingamtmay
  • Reply 34 of 39
    gatorguy said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.


    LOL...  Why is hard for you to understand that when an idiot locks production at a factory you get fewer chips?
    He did the same with laptops:   shuttered Chinese factories making laptops -- so U.S. kids that he forced into cyberschool couldn't do their school work.
    That was Trump's whole purpose:  block Chinese production using any means at his disposal.  Unfortunately, he failed to realize how much America depends on access to those products.

    Oh, I forgot, you're a China hater.   Logic need not apply.
    Just the whining when Americans end up taking it on the chin as a result of these senseless, baseless attacks on China.


    Trump didn't shut down SMIC. They blocked SMIC from expansion, especially to new nodes. So companies are shifting to sources to the West, who will benefit from the expansion in demand without the worry of militarization that we have with China.

    Looks like a win-win for the rest of the world.

    Good.


    TMay, you're wasting your breath with George IMHO. I don't recall him ever admitting someone else might be right and he was mistaken. Never so much as  "Thank You, I didn't know that" either as far as I know. He seems to have his own agenda and being accurate is not essential to whatever it is that he hopes to accomplish.

    Fuggedaboutit. Time is better spent on something else IMO.
    Agreed. George's way of presenting arguments (only statements, no links to backup the claims, NEVER accepting any mistakes or even the possibility of a mistake in arguments) is definitely a challenge. Better to present the arguments and leave it there and let the other readers decide for themselves.
  • Reply 35 of 39
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,241member
    gatorguy said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.


    LOL...  Why is hard for you to understand that when an idiot locks production at a factory you get fewer chips?
    He did the same with laptops:   shuttered Chinese factories making laptops -- so U.S. kids that he forced into cyberschool couldn't do their school work.
    That was Trump's whole purpose:  block Chinese production using any means at his disposal.  Unfortunately, he failed to realize how much America depends on access to those products.

    Oh, I forgot, you're a China hater.   Logic need not apply.
    Just the whining when Americans end up taking it on the chin as a result of these senseless, baseless attacks on China.


    Trump didn't shut down SMIC. They blocked SMIC from expansion, especially to new nodes. So companies are shifting to sources to the West, who will benefit from the expansion in demand without the worry of militarization that we have with China.

    Looks like a win-win for the rest of the world.

    Good.


    TMay, you're wasting your breath with George IMHO. I don't recall him ever admitting someone else might be right and he was mistaken. Never so much as  "Thank You, I didn't know that" either as far as I know. He seems to have his own agenda and being accurate is not essential to whatever it is that he hopes to accomplish.

    Fuggedaboutit. Time is better spent on something else IMO.
    I'm done with him (for awhile), but there are folks here that believe his misinformation.
  • Reply 36 of 39
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 2,351member
    tmay said:
    tzeshan said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.

    Let me explain if you can understand. Trump and Republicans try to stop China's economic growth. But China was already the largest consumer of semiconductors. Many chip companies lowered their long time capital expenditures. But the high tech growth did not stop. 5G, AI, and auto industry keep increasing their demand for chips. Now Biden is in office, the pandemic is nearing an end, the world economy is recovering, as a result the chip industry could not satisfy the demand. 
    Again, the current shortages have nothing to do with Trump restricting technology transfer to China. That's all about future 10 nm and under foundries, but I do agree that the restrictions will have an impact on access to sub 10nm components by Chinese companies.

    Still, and I have to keep pointing this out, if the U.S. and its allies see a threat from Xi Jinping and authoritarian China, why would they allow technology transfer that would absolutely be militarized?

    As I expected you understand only 50%. I also said the growth of 5G, AI, and auto industry increase demand on semiconductors. I will add the proof that Trump repeatedly asked Cook to move iPhone manufacturing to US. He doesn't care in so doing Apple may lose its China market and further increasing its cost and sales in US. His actions discourage the semiconductor industry and they thought Trump is going to be reelected and his policy will worse for another 4 years. 
    edited March 2021 GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 37 of 39
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,088member
    tmay said:
    gatorguy said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.


    LOL...  Why is hard for you to understand that when an idiot locks production at a factory you get fewer chips?
    He did the same with laptops:   shuttered Chinese factories making laptops -- so U.S. kids that he forced into cyberschool couldn't do their school work.
    That was Trump's whole purpose:  block Chinese production using any means at his disposal.  Unfortunately, he failed to realize how much America depends on access to those products.

    Oh, I forgot, you're a China hater.   Logic need not apply.
    Just the whining when Americans end up taking it on the chin as a result of these senseless, baseless attacks on China.


    Trump didn't shut down SMIC. They blocked SMIC from expansion, especially to new nodes. So companies are shifting to sources to the West, who will benefit from the expansion in demand without the worry of militarization that we have with China.

    Looks like a win-win for the rest of the world.

    Good.


    TMay, you're wasting your breath with George IMHO. I don't recall him ever admitting someone else might be right and he was mistaken. Never so much as  "Thank You, I didn't know that" either as far as I know. He seems to have his own agenda and being accurate is not essential to whatever it is that he hopes to accomplish.

    Fuggedaboutit. Time is better spent on something else IMO.
    I'm done with him (for awhile), but there are folks here that believe his misinformation.
    I doubt much of it is accepted at face value. 
  • Reply 38 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:
    tzeshan said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    hexclock said:
    tzeshan said:
    tedz98 said:
    What’s amazing is the decline of chip fab capabilities in the United States. IBM used to be a big player running their own foundries. They’ve basically exited that business. Intel is falling behind and can’t compete with TSMC. AMD has lost ground. US auto manufacturers have had to slow production lines due to chip availability issues. The US really needs to find ways to improve its abilities to create wafers and chips. Chip manufacturing capabilities are no where on the Biden agenda. That has to change.
    Biden has  got to go .. that will solve much bigger problems..
    Biden inherited the problems created by Trump. Biden is in office only two months. 
    US chipmaking has been on the decline for decades. US companies have been outsourcing labor for years, so you really can't blame Trump for that, fashionable as it is.

    You can blame Trump for shutting down the Chinese chip factories that we rely on.   The shortages are mostly in the types of chips that they made.   But, we shut down the factories and then whine that we can't buy what they want to sell.  
    Bullshit, you can't blame Trump, and for once, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.

    The shortage had nothing to do with any entity or individual "shutting down the Chinese chip factories", simply because those were never shut down.

    It has everything to do with the Pandemic, that slowed the auto manufacturing industry to a crawl, forcing these companies to give up their places in line at the component manufacturers.

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/13/business/global-chip-shortages-carmakers/index.html

    "A chip shortage

    The supply chain bottleneck could end up hurting business. A much stronger than expected recovery in sales and production volumes has contributed to the crunch, but carmakers risk missing out on the demand uplift if assembly lines slow. When the pandemic forced automakers to temporarily shutter factories last year, leading semiconductor manufacturers reassigned production capacity to companies making smartphones, laptops and gaming devices.

    "With lead times of six to nine months, the semiconductor industry has not been able to scale up fast enough to meet this unexpected growth in automotive demand," parts supplier Continental (CTTAF) said in a statement sent to CNN Business on Tuesday. The bottlenecks are expected to continue "well into 2021, causing major disruptions in Continental's production." The company said that an internal task force supervised by senior management is managing the "critical situation."

    Automakers account for only about 12% of all semiconductor demand globally, putting them in relatively weak purchasing position, said Arndt Ellinghorst, a senior analyst at Bernstein.

    Bullshit, you can blame Trump for shutting down Chinese chip factories, get you head out of your ass, and do some online research, and you'll see that you are absolutely wrong.
    There you go again;

    What Trump enacted is restrictions of IP necessary for Fabs 10nm and better. That has nothing to do with current, operating fabs.

    https://www.sdxcentral.com/articles/news/trump-cuts-off-chinas-top-chipmaker/2020/12/

    "In the final throes of its presidency, the Trump Administration isn’t backing down on its tech war with China. The Wall Street Journal reported today that the U.S. Commerce Department banned the export of U.S. intellectual property related to semiconductor manufacturing over Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp’s (SMIC) alleged ties to the Chinese military.

    “Entity List restrictions are a necessary measure to ensure that China, through its national champion SMIC, is not able to leverage U.S. technologies to enable indigenous advanced technology levels to support its destabilizing military activities,” Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross told The Wall Street Journal in a statement.

    The outright ban comes months after the Commerce Department announced it would require all non-U.S. chipmakers using American equipment, intellectual property, or design software to apply for a license to sell chips to Chinese chipmakers like Huawei and SMIC.

    According to The Wall Street Journal report, SMIC along with more than 60 other Chinese companies will be added to the entity list. The list — effectively a black mark — restricts companies from exporting U.S. technologies to listed organizations without a license. However, where SMIC is concerned the Commerce Department has taken the extra step of adding a provision effectively baring the company from acquiring the technology required to produce 10-nanometer and smaller chips."

    You seem to be conflating two different issues; the shortage on components from existing fabs, and the restrictions on advanced fab tech.

    So some fucking research.

    Let me explain if you can understand. Trump and Republicans try to stop China's economic growth. But China was already the largest consumer of semiconductors. Many chip companies lowered their long time capital expenditures. But the high tech growth did not stop. 5G, AI, and auto industry keep increasing their demand for chips. Now Biden is in office, the pandemic is nearing an end, the world economy is recovering, as a result the chip industry could not satisfy the demand. 
    Again, the current shortages have nothing to do with Trump restricting technology transfer to China. That's all about future 10 nm and under foundries, but I do agree that the restrictions will have an impact on access to sub 10nm components by Chinese companies.

    Still, and I have to keep pointing this out, if the U.S. and its allies see a threat from Xi Jinping and authoritarian China, why would they allow technology transfer that would absolutely be militarized?


    Yeh, there is a threat:   They will soon overtake us as the world's leading economy.
    So some think that means attack, attack, attack
    Others see that as a sign we need to do better.

    The weird thing is that those who favor attacking China for their success are the first to trumpet the glory and the benefits of free market capitalism -- which is what China is basing their success on.  They can't admit that nor can they attack China directly, so they rely on smear campaigns.
    edited March 2021
  • Reply 39 of 39
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    According to what I've read the chip shortage is mainly to do with a massive spike in demand due to so much homeworking and telecommuting.  Supply dipped in the early days of COVID-19, but has now recovered and exceeds what it was in early 2020.  
    edited March 2021 muthuk_vanalingam
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