I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
This is a catch-22. If Apple allows macOS on the iPad Pro when in laptop mode, the potential downside is that developers have little incentive to develop apps that are touch-first and optimized for iPadOS.
I think issue, if there is one, would be the opposite: Apple is trying to get more apps on the Mac -- to feed off of the strength of the iOS App Store.
Actually, the strength of that iOS App Store is getting them in trouble as lesser players are trying to pick off a piece of that action and trying to use government and court intervention to do it.
The OS is quite a small part of the user interaction. This is the problem with devices like the Surface - they are really laptops with a touchscreen and not tablets that are designed around the requirement of being fully optimal using a finger. Jumping around parts of the OS can be manageable but as soon as a mouse-optimal app is opened, it will at some point require the use of a stylus or mouse. Most people use Surface products like laptops as the following video describes
Nice links there Marvin.
The Surface Pro video was frustrating as the YouTuber didn't go all the way and use the Surface Pro with fingers install of either a mouse or trackpad and keyboard as he was narrating the video. MS Windows' tablet mode has very similar app window management UI and software keyboard UI features as iPadOS, but looks to be implemented worse. That onscreen keyboard was nails on a chalkboard. Ugh.
In the video the reviewer mentions that lack of apps is a big issue, and I agree with him. But the few usable apps are very good, same as Window 10 tablet mode. Even Apple copies some elements, like side-by-side apps / multitasking. But like you mention, as a whole, iPadOS is better in tablet mode.
For iPad Pros, hopefully Apple stays committed to making everything on an iPad touch-first, especially the onscreen keyboard and hopefully an onscreen trackpad controlling a pointer comes soon too. They really need to continually refine the onscreen keyboard features.
And yes, my impression of Surface Pro usage is that they are all used as laptops. The ratio of keyboards to Surface Pros is likely greater than 1. Ie, for every Surface Pro, there is more than 1 keyboard for it. For iPads, maybe 20%? A large majority of iPad owners don't have a keyboard accessory.
I think most users use the keyboard + trackpad for two reasons, lack of touch optimized apps, and that keyboard + trackpad is a better option than a touchscreen for many tasks. Working with large documents or complex spreadsheets is far better with keyboard + trackpad than with touch. And that's where you see a better experience in the Surface Pro, even over the iPad + Magic Keyboard. The Surface have the advantage of having full desktop apps and better multitasking. IMO, the iPad is a better tablet device, but as soon as you add a keyboard + trackpad, the Surface Pro becomes the better device.
Yet, Apple seems to have the advantage in that they have already moved to ARM, and in a big way, and MS is still trying to figure out how to get developers to "move on" to ARM.
MS has an $8B to $10B a year business in Surface, which pales against Apple's iPad. Sure, there are a lot of third party 2 in 1's, but until MS can fully transition to ARM and at the same time, take advantage of all of that legacy x86 software, I'm not seeing much movement.
Here's a link to a take on Apple's ubiquitous M1, vs the myriad SKU's for processor variants in X86 products.
Yeah, Apple covers 90% of its Mac market with the M1...
From what I know (I'm not a developer) MS didn't need to move developers to a ARM, considering UWP apps runs in x86, ARM32 and ARM64. IMO, Apple made a better tablet than MS (specially compared to old Tablet PC's), Apple sold a lot of them and obviously developers took advantage of that.
I think most users use the keyboard + trackpad for two reasons, lack of touch optimized apps, and that keyboard + trackpad is a better option than a touchscreen for many tasks. Working with large documents or complex spreadsheets is far better with keyboard + trackpad than with touch. And that's where you see a better experience in the Surface Pro, even over the iPad + Magic Keyboard. The Surface have the advantage of having full desktop apps and better multitasking. IMO, the iPad is a better tablet device, but as soon as you add a keyboard + trackpad, the Surface Pro becomes the better device.
Application UI design is important, but the fundamental driver is likely screen size imo. Productivity scales with screen size, with people being more productive as screen size goes up. There's a point of diminishing returns, probably 25 to 30 inches, but from say 5 inches to 25 inches, most users get more productive as screen size gets larger.
For certain classes of apps, like a spreadsheet or office automation, you want a certain amount of rows and columns at readable text sizes, or certain number of rows of text in a word processor, to feel really be productive. After 30 years of computing, I don't think it is an accident that laptops have settled on about 13" as the practical minimum for screen size using modern app designs and features. There are laptops with smaller screen sizes, but they simply aren't as successful as 13" laptops. Apple's tried multiple times with 12", and those laptops never stay in the lineup. The vast majority of PC laptops are 13" or bigger. Even the Chromebooks, whose hardware is really limited by price, will eventually inch towards 13" as those displays get cheaper imo.
For tablets, they are boxed in between portability and productivity. If you want to hand hold it, it needs to be about 1.5 lb or less, and being the size of a lunch tray isn't great for handling which drives screen sizes to be smaller. Then, if you want text input, the onscreen keyboard takes half the screen, making office automation tasks less productive. Hence, what I want Apple to do is offer 2 or 3 row onscreen keyboards. This yields 1 to 1.5 inches of more vertical display space, which is huge as it increases the app display area 30 to 50% with the keyboard visible.
So, people use Surface Pros with external keyboards because they want more display area for their apps. Not necessarily that they aren't touch optimized. Touch UI is important, but I don't it overcomes limitations presented by screen size.
Going the other way, I would submit that people would be just as productive on a 30" touchscreen device using software keyboards and software trackpads versus a 30" display using keyboards and mice. A folding touch display laptop - 13" folded, 18" unfolded - would make for an interesting device. Seems OEMs aren't willing to go all the way where they provide a hardware keyboard with their dual display or folding display laptops. They need to go all the way and make touchscreen text input work on these devices. They won't be lay back devices like tablets are, but mostly PC type usage.
Conspiracy theorists cherry pick things they claim support their theory (iPad has an M1 chip!), and claim things that don’t (like continued, consistent denials from Apple that iPads and Macs will be combined) are just evidence of the conspiracy. There’s really nothing that will change their minds.
Beware of conspiracy theorists and people writing off information as conspiracy theories.
I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
This is a catch-22. If Apple allows macOS on the iPad Pro when in laptop mode, the potential downside is that developers have little incentive to develop apps that are touch-first and optimized for iPadOS.
Imagine how bad reception for the iPad would have been if changing from Landscape to Portrait required a reboot and information might be trapped in one Version of the OS not the other.
How is dual boot mac/pad any different?
Will always be better user experience for Apple to make iPadOS better and push developers to adapt. I can't see Apple going the easy way here.
After all what more does iPadOS need to do to make it easier for Mac Developers to cross-over they could make more and more default behaviour widgets to help streamline. A good thing for users either way but in the end each app has some unique interactions they need to convert to hybrid touch/mouse before they can offer an iPadPro Version that won't seem half baked.
I think most users use the keyboard + trackpad for two reasons, lack of touch optimized apps, and that keyboard + trackpad is a better option than a touchscreen for many tasks. Working with large documents or complex spreadsheets is far better with keyboard + trackpad than with touch. And that's where you see a better experience in the Surface Pro, even over the iPad + Magic Keyboard. The Surface have the advantage of having full desktop apps and better multitasking. IMO, the iPad is a better tablet device, but as soon as you add a keyboard + trackpad, the Surface Pro becomes the better device.
Application UI design is important, but the fundamental driver is likely screen size imo. Productivity scales with screen size, with people being more productive as screen size goes up. There's a point of diminishing returns, probably 25 to 30 inches, but from say 5 inches to 25 inches, most users get more productive as screen size gets larger.
For certain classes of apps, like a spreadsheet or office automation, you want a certain amount of rows and columns at readable text sizes, or certain number of rows of text in a word processor, to feel really be productive. After 30 years of computing, I don't think it is an accident that laptops have settled on about 13" as the practical minimum for screen size using modern app designs and features. There are laptops with smaller screen sizes, but they simply aren't as successful as 13" laptops. Apple's tried multiple times with 12", and those laptops never stay in the lineup. The vast majority of PC laptops are 13" or bigger. Even the Chromebooks, whose hardware is really limited by price, will eventually inch towards 13" as those displays get cheaper imo.
For tablets, they are boxed in between portability and productivity. If you want to hand hold it, it needs to be about 1.5 lb or less, and being the size of a lunch tray isn't great for handling which drives screen sizes to be smaller. Then, if you want text input, the onscreen keyboard takes half the screen, making office automation tasks less productive. Hence, what I want Apple to do is offer 2 or 3 row onscreen keyboards. This yields 1 to 1.5 inches of more vertical display space, which is huge as it increases the app display area 30 to 50% with the keyboard visible.
So, people use Surface Pros with external keyboards because they want more display area for their apps. Not necessarily that they aren't touch optimized. Touch UI is important, but I don't it overcomes limitations presented by screen size.
Going the other way, I would submit that people would be just as productive on a 30" touchscreen device using software keyboards and software trackpads versus a 30" display using keyboards and mice. A folding touch display laptop - 13" folded, 18" unfolded - would make for an interesting device. Seems OEMs aren't willing to go all the way where they provide a hardware keyboard with their dual display or folding display laptops. They need to go all the way and make touchscreen text input work on these devices. They won't be lay back devices like tablets are, but mostly PC type usage.
I understand your point, but I still think that people use keyboard in the Surface Pro because lack of apps and a better experience in documents, spreadsheets, etc. The best touch UI / keyboard the experience a real keyboard / mouse offers. At the end, even Apple had to admit that, and relase the Magic Keyboard.
I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
This is a catch-22. If Apple allows macOS on the iPad Pro when in laptop mode, the potential downside is that developers have little incentive to develop apps that are touch-first and optimized for iPadOS.
Imagine how bad reception for the iPad would have been if changing from Landscape to Portrait required a reboot and information might be trapped in one Version of the OS not the other.
How is dual boot mac/pad any different?
Will always be better user experience for Apple to make iPadOS better and push developers to adapt. I can't see Apple going the easy way here.
After all what more does iPadOS need to do to make it easier for Mac Developers to cross-over they could make more and more default behaviour widgets to help streamline. A good thing for users either way but in the end each app has some unique interactions they need to convert to hybrid touch/mouse before they can offer an iPadPro Version that won't seem half baked.
They are totally different. You are comparing two different things.
But yes, it may be better if Apple brought iPadOS up to par with MacOS (Although many seem to think that a merged OS is not a good idea). But regardlless, they do not seem likely to do that -- at least not anytime soon.
So, some sort of switching to the appropriate OS is the quickest, easiest way to providing the M1 iPad with its full potential: And, it could be as optional as Bootcamp is now: "You are in laptop mode, do you want to switch to MacOS?"
So, what is it about iPad hardware running the Mac's M1 chip that prevents or limits it from running MacOS?
What component does it lack?
Absolutely nothing. There is no reason why Apple wouldn't be able (with some effort) to get macOS running on an iPad. The same has been true since iPad came out, and isn't significantly more true now.
But Apple don't want to do that. Why would they?
Until recently -- when Apple ported MacOS to the M1 chip then replaced the A series chip in the iPad with an M1 -- it may have been theoretically possible but not really feasible because MacOS would not run on an ARM based processor. Now that both Macs and the M1 iPad run the same processor it becomes much more feasible and practical.
Apple did not take 10 years to port macOS to the ARM instruction set. They could have done it at any time. They didn't, because they didn't want macOS on the iPad. I doubt very much that anything has changed in that regard. It's always been feasible, and practicality has nothing to with it. Apple's willingness is the only thing that matters, and they have shown zero.
You're saying that Apple held back converting the Mac to an ARM style processor because they didn't want to port MacOS to the iPad?
I don't get your logic.
The idea of dual booting either MacOS or iPadOS on the iPad comes from: 1) Like a dog, "they do it because (now) they can"
2) iPadOS is so weak once you expand out of basic tablet mode.
The logic seems pretty self evident to me, so not sure what you don't get.
In answer to your "idea"
When has Apple ever done something "because it could"
No it isn't. It is exactly what Apple wants it to be. If you don't like that, Apple's message is buy something else, like a Mac.
I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
This is a catch-22. If Apple allows macOS on the iPad Pro when in laptop mode, the potential downside is that developers have little incentive to develop apps that are touch-first and optimized for iPadOS.
Imagine how bad reception for the iPad would have been if changing from Landscape to Portrait required a reboot and information might be trapped in one Version of the OS not the other.
How is dual boot mac/pad any different?
Will always be better user experience for Apple to make iPadOS better and push developers to adapt. I can't see Apple going the easy way here.
After all what more does iPadOS need to do to make it easier for Mac Developers to cross-over they could make more and more default behaviour widgets to help streamline. A good thing for users either way but in the end each app has some unique interactions they need to convert to hybrid touch/mouse before they can offer an iPadPro Version that won't seem half baked.
They are totally different. You are comparing two different things.
But yes, it may be better if Apple brought iPadOS up to par with MacOS (Although many seem to think that a merged OS is not a good idea). But regardlless, they do not seem likely to do that -- at least not anytime soon.
So, some sort of switching to the appropriate OS is the quickest, easiest way to providing the M1 iPad with its full potential: And, it could be as optional as Bootcamp is now: "You are in laptop mode, do you want to switch to MacOS?"
That would be right up there with the worst user experience ever, and there isn't a chance in hell of Apple ever doing that.
I think most users use the keyboard + trackpad for two reasons, lack of touch optimized apps, and that keyboard + trackpad is a better option than a touchscreen for many tasks. Working with large documents or complex spreadsheets is far better with keyboard + trackpad than with touch. And that's where you see a better experience in the Surface Pro, even over the iPad + Magic Keyboard. The Surface have the advantage of having full desktop apps and better multitasking. IMO, the iPad is a better tablet device, but as soon as you add a keyboard + trackpad, the Surface Pro becomes the better device.
Application UI design is important, but the fundamental driver is likely screen size imo. Productivity scales with screen size, with people being more productive as screen size goes up. There's a point of diminishing returns, probably 25 to 30 inches, but from say 5 inches to 25 inches, most users get more productive as screen size gets larger.
For certain classes of apps, like a spreadsheet or office automation, you want a certain amount of rows and columns at readable text sizes, or certain number of rows of text in a word processor, to feel really be productive. After 30 years of computing, I don't think it is an accident that laptops have settled on about 13" as the practical minimum for screen size using modern app designs and features. There are laptops with smaller screen sizes, but they simply aren't as successful as 13" laptops. Apple's tried multiple times with 12", and those laptops never stay in the lineup. The vast majority of PC laptops are 13" or bigger. Even the Chromebooks, whose hardware is really limited by price, will eventually inch towards 13" as those displays get cheaper imo.
For tablets, they are boxed in between portability and productivity. If you want to hand hold it, it needs to be about 1.5 lb or less, and being the size of a lunch tray isn't great for handling which drives screen sizes to be smaller. Then, if you want text input, the onscreen keyboard takes half the screen, making office automation tasks less productive. Hence, what I want Apple to do is offer 2 or 3 row onscreen keyboards. This yields 1 to 1.5 inches of more vertical display space, which is huge as it increases the app display area 30 to 50% with the keyboard visible.
So, people use Surface Pros with external keyboards because they want more display area for their apps. Not necessarily that they aren't touch optimized. Touch UI is important, but I don't it overcomes limitations presented by screen size.
Going the other way, I would submit that people would be just as productive on a 30" touchscreen device using software keyboards and software trackpads versus a 30" display using keyboards and mice. A folding touch display laptop - 13" folded, 18" unfolded - would make for an interesting device. Seems OEMs aren't willing to go all the way where they provide a hardware keyboard with their dual display or folding display laptops. They need to go all the way and make touchscreen text input work on these devices. They won't be lay back devices like tablets are, but mostly PC type usage.
I understand your point, but I still think that people use keyboard in the Surface Pro because lack of apps and a better experience in documents, spreadsheets, etc. The best touch UI / keyboard the experience a real keyboard / mouse offers. At the end, even Apple had to admit that, and relase the Magic Keyboard.
"had to admit", or merely took its own sweet time, and followed its existing internal roadmap?
Nothing about the iPad screams "but the competition; do something quickly".
I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
Apple doesn't consider that iPad w/keyboard to be a hybrid. They still market it as iPad + accessory, so while you may think that "Apple has a number of ways to go there", I'm thinking, any future 2 in 1 is going to be a new product. Whether that implies Mac OS, is unknown to us; maybe it will be an entirely new OS derived from Mac OS.
There is not getting away from the fact that for real productivity, a physical keyboard was needed.
Right from the very first iPad which was more of a passive (consumption) device right through to the 'Pro' models.
A major hurdle along the way was something as basic as file management which took ages to be 'half' remedied.
It doesn't matter how Apple wants to 'market' the product, devices suit different needs at different times.
A true 2in1 would be the way to go because it would increase flexibility for the user. Folding devices are another option.
As for the OS, there is no valid reason nowadays for this fragmentation from a user perspective.
One OS should be able to adapt itself to anything Apple puts out, saving developers and users time and hassle. From pro desktops through smartscreens, tablets, phones and down to car head units, earbuds and watches.
The end result should be an ecosystem that can pool hardware resources to satisfy user needs and the real gruntwork would have to be done at the IDE phase. That's a major undertaking but it should be the goal and to be honest it what I think will happen at some point.
I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
Apple doesn't consider that iPad w/keyboard to be a hybrid. They still market it as iPad + accessory, so while you may think that "Apple has a number of ways to go there", I'm thinking, any future 2 in 1 is going to be a new product. Whether that implies Mac OS, is unknown to us; maybe it will be an entirely new OS derived from Mac OS.
There is not getting away from the fact that for real productivity, a physical keyboard was needed.
Right from the very first iPad which was more of a passive (consumption) device right through to the 'Pro' models.
A major hurdle along the way was something as basic as file management which took ages to be 'half' remedied.
It doesn't matter how Apple wants to 'market' the product, devices suit different needs at different times.
A true 2in1 would be the way to go because it would increase flexibility for the user. Folding devices are another option.
As for the OS, there is no valid reason nowadays for this fragmentation from a user perspective.
One OS should be able to adapt itself to anything Apple puts out, saving developers and users time and hassle. From pro desktops through smartscreens, tablets, phones and down to car head units, earbuds and watches.
The end result should be an ecosystem that can pool hardware resources to satisfy user needs and the real gruntwork would have to be done at the IDE phase. That's a major undertaking but it should be the goal and to be honest it what I think will happen at some point.
Spouting your Huawei Gospel again; one OS to rule them all.
There isn't anything wrong with Apple's current development system for specific niches with a customized OS targeted to the hardware/screen size, and UI. It obviously works well as customer satisfaction is extremely high for Apple products.
Should Apple deliver a foldable, I expect that it to will have its own custom OS, as it should since it is different in use than either an iPad or an iPhone. That we will find out if and when it actually happens.
But 2 in 1's are also a completely different beast than Notebooks, or iPads, and should Apple actually deliver a true 2 in 1, I would expect that too would have a custom OS.
I don't really buy into your spiel, since you aren't really a daily user of anything Apple that is recent. Write once for every device will only result in less than ideal, and in many cases, a mediocre experience, for the user. I'll pass on that.
Conspiracy theorists cherry pick things they claim support their theory (iPad has an M1 chip!), and claim things that don’t (like continued, consistent denials from Apple that iPads and Macs will be combined) are just evidence of the conspiracy. There’s really nothing that will change their minds.
Beware of conspiracy theorists and people writing off information as conspiracy theories.
They are the REAL evil twins...
Boy, howdy. That presents a logical conundrum, doesn’t it?
Implementing these functions doesn’t seem like a big deal.
Would it detract from the experience giving the option of either enabling touchscreens on Mac or running macOS on iPad?
Some would have raised concerns on implementing trackpad support on iPad since it is a “tablet” and therefore not a computer. “If you wanted a trackpad on an iPad, buy a Mac.”
I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
Apple doesn't consider that iPad w/keyboard to be a hybrid. They still market it as iPad + accessory, so while you may think that "Apple has a number of ways to go there", I'm thinking, any future 2 in 1 is going to be a new product. Whether that implies Mac OS, is unknown to us; maybe it will be an entirely new OS derived from Mac OS.
There is not getting away from the fact that for real productivity, a physical keyboard was needed.
Right from the very first iPad which was more of a passive (consumption) device right through to the 'Pro' models.
A major hurdle along the way was something as basic as file management which took ages to be 'half' remedied.
It doesn't matter how Apple wants to 'market' the product, devices suit different needs at different times.
A true 2in1 would be the way to go because it would increase flexibility for the user. Folding devices are another option.
As for the OS, there is no valid reason nowadays for this fragmentation from a user perspective.
One OS should be able to adapt itself to anything Apple puts out, saving developers and users time and hassle. From pro desktops through smartscreens, tablets, phones and down to car head units, earbuds and watches.
The end result should be an ecosystem that can pool hardware resources to satisfy user needs and the real gruntwork would have to be done at the IDE phase. That's a major undertaking but it should be the goal and to be honest it what I think will happen at some point.
Spouting your Huawei Gospel again; one OS to rule them all.
There isn't anything wrong with Apple's current development system for specific niches with a customized OS targeted to the hardware/screen size, and UI. It obviously works well as customer satisfaction is extremely high for Apple products.
Should Apple deliver a foldable, I expect that it to will have its own custom OS, as it should since it is different in use than either an iPad or an iPhone. That we will find out if and when it actually happens.
But 2 in 1's are also a completely different beast than Notebooks, or iPads, and should Apple actually deliver a true 2 in 1, I would expect that too would have a custom OS.
I don't really buy into your spiel, since you aren't really a daily user of anything Apple that is recent. Write once for every device will only result in less than ideal, and in many cases, a mediocre experience, for the user. I'll pass on that.
My current home daily drivers are a MBP and a MBA. Old, but pretty functional.
I was talking about the concept rather than any real product. Yes, Huawei is going to bring that idea to real products soon and there will be teething issues for sure. It's impossible to hit the ground running with something so complex but from a purely conceptual perspective there are good arguments for a universal system pulling in functionality from available devices and simplifying the development process for developers.
You are glossing over the current real failings in Apple's current setup and we are talking about supposedly very mature systems. File management for example. Until relatively recently it was a royal pain to manage such simple items as email attachments on Apple mobile devices. Physical keyboards have been performing better for tablet work in productivity terms, for example. And with good reason.
On paper, a lot has been said about HarmonyOS but even you should be able to see that virtualised hardware and various distributed technologies make more sense if you truly want collaboration between devices (moreso when smart IoT devices are already here).
Apparently, a major problem on car head units for example was the landscape vs portrait issue. I don't drive so that was never of much interest to me but HarmonyOS has reportedly solved that and has been on the market for over a year now. Now, it's self driving technology is shipping on cars together with HarmonyOS.
For sure all eyes will be on that at its roll out on high memory mobile devices very soon and I have been told that at some point it will make the jump to desktop/laptop systems too.
That's where I expect Apple to end up too at some point.
I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
Apple doesn't consider that iPad w/keyboard to be a hybrid. They still market it as iPad + accessory, so while you may think that "Apple has a number of ways to go there", I'm thinking, any future 2 in 1 is going to be a new product. Whether that implies Mac OS, is unknown to us; maybe it will be an entirely new OS derived from Mac OS.
There is not getting away from the fact that for real productivity, a physical keyboard was needed.
Right from the very first iPad which was more of a passive (consumption) device right through to the 'Pro' models.
A major hurdle along the way was something as basic as file management which took ages to be 'half' remedied.
It doesn't matter how Apple wants to 'market' the product, devices suit different needs at different times.
A true 2in1 would be the way to go because it would increase flexibility for the user. Folding devices are another option.
As for the OS, there is no valid reason nowadays for this fragmentation from a user perspective.
One OS should be able to adapt itself to anything Apple puts out, saving developers and users time and hassle. From pro desktops through smartscreens, tablets, phones and down to car head units, earbuds and watches.
The end result should be an ecosystem that can pool hardware resources to satisfy user needs and the real gruntwork would have to be done at the IDE phase. That's a major undertaking but it should be the goal and to be honest it what I think will happen at some point.
Spouting your Huawei Gospel again; one OS to rule them all.
There isn't anything wrong with Apple's current development system for specific niches with a customized OS targeted to the hardware/screen size, and UI. It obviously works well as customer satisfaction is extremely high for Apple products.
Should Apple deliver a foldable, I expect that it to will have its own custom OS, as it should since it is different in use than either an iPad or an iPhone. That we will find out if and when it actually happens.
But 2 in 1's are also a completely different beast than Notebooks, or iPads, and should Apple actually deliver a true 2 in 1, I would expect that too would have a custom OS.
I don't really buy into your spiel, since you aren't really a daily user of anything Apple that is recent. Write once for every device will only result in less than ideal, and in many cases, a mediocre experience, for the user. I'll pass on that.
My current home daily drivers are a MBP and a MBA. Old, but pretty functional.
I was talking about the concept rather than any real product. Yes, Huawei is going to bring that idea to real products soon and there will be teething issues for sure. It's impossible to hit the ground running with something so complex but from a purely conceptual perspective there are good arguments for a universal system pulling in functionality from available devices and simplifying the development process for developers.
You are glossing over the current real failings in Apple's current setup and we are talking about supposedly very mature systems. File management for example. Until relatively recently it was a royal pain to manage such simple items as email attachments on Apple mobile devices. Physical keyboards have been performing better for tablet work in productivity terms, for example. And with good reason.
On paper, a lot has been said about HarmonyOS but even you should be able to see that virtualised hardware and various distributed technologies make more sense if you truly want collaboration between devices (moreso when smart IoT devices are already here).
Apparently, a major problem on car head units for example was the landscape vs portrait issue. I don't drive so that was never of much interest to me but HarmonyOS has reportedly solved that and has been on the market for over a year now. Now, it's self driving technology is shipping on cars together with HarmonyOS.
For sure all eyes will be on that at its roll out on high memory mobile devices very soon and I have been told that at some point it will make the jump to desktop/laptop systems too.
That's where I expect Apple to end up too at some point.
You really need to stop postulating about how great Harmony OS will be, and how uniquely easy it will be for developers, and wait for it to be delivered, because what I am seeing is not what you are.
I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
Apple doesn't consider that iPad w/keyboard to be a hybrid. They still market it as iPad + accessory, so while you may think that "Apple has a number of ways to go there", I'm thinking, any future 2 in 1 is going to be a new product. Whether that implies Mac OS, is unknown to us; maybe it will be an entirely new OS derived from Mac OS.
There is not getting away from the fact that for real productivity, a physical keyboard was needed.
Right from the very first iPad which was more of a passive (consumption) device right through to the 'Pro' models.
A major hurdle along the way was something as basic as file management which took ages to be 'half' remedied.
It doesn't matter how Apple wants to 'market' the product, devices suit different needs at different times.
A true 2in1 would be the way to go because it would increase flexibility for the user. Folding devices are another option.
As for the OS, there is no valid reason nowadays for this fragmentation from a user perspective.
One OS should be able to adapt itself to anything Apple puts out, saving developers and users time and hassle. From pro desktops through smartscreens, tablets, phones and down to car head units, earbuds and watches.
The end result should be an ecosystem that can pool hardware resources to satisfy user needs and the real gruntwork would have to be done at the IDE phase. That's a major undertaking but it should be the goal and to be honest it what I think will happen at some point.
Spouting your Huawei Gospel again; one OS to rule them all.
There isn't anything wrong with Apple's current development system for specific niches with a customized OS targeted to the hardware/screen size, and UI. It obviously works well as customer satisfaction is extremely high for Apple products.
Should Apple deliver a foldable, I expect that it to will have its own custom OS, as it should since it is different in use than either an iPad or an iPhone. That we will find out if and when it actually happens.
But 2 in 1's are also a completely different beast than Notebooks, or iPads, and should Apple actually deliver a true 2 in 1, I would expect that too would have a custom OS.
I don't really buy into your spiel, since you aren't really a daily user of anything Apple that is recent. Write once for every device will only result in less than ideal, and in many cases, a mediocre experience, for the user. I'll pass on that.
My current home daily drivers are a MBP and a MBA. Old, but pretty functional.
I was talking about the concept rather than any real product. Yes, Huawei is going to bring that idea to real products soon and there will be teething issues for sure. It's impossible to hit the ground running with something so complex but from a purely conceptual perspective there are good arguments for a universal system pulling in functionality from available devices and simplifying the development process for developers.
You are glossing over the current real failings in Apple's current setup and we are talking about supposedly very mature systems. File management for example. Until relatively recently it was a royal pain to manage such simple items as email attachments on Apple mobile devices. Physical keyboards have been performing better for tablet work in productivity terms, for example. And with good reason.
On paper, a lot has been said about HarmonyOS but even you should be able to see that virtualised hardware and various distributed technologies make more sense if you truly want collaboration between devices (moreso when smart IoT devices are already here).
Apparently, a major problem on car head units for example was the landscape vs portrait issue. I don't drive so that was never of much interest to me but HarmonyOS has reportedly solved that and has been on the market for over a year now. Now, it's self driving technology is shipping on cars together with HarmonyOS.
For sure all eyes will be on that at its roll out on high memory mobile devices very soon and I have been told that at some point it will make the jump to desktop/laptop systems too.
That's where I expect Apple to end up too at some point.
You really need to stop postulating about how great Harmony OS will be, and how uniquely easy it will be for developers, and wait for it to be delivered, because what I am seeing is not what you are.
Isn't that exactly what I said? Where did I say the deployed system would be great?
For this discussion I am speaking from a conceptual perspective as Apple doesn't have anything like what HarmonyOS is aiming for - yet.
And as I said, when HarmonyOS arrives on high memory devices it will need to mature (just like every other OS before it) but that doesn't mean the conceptual advantages suddenly vanish.
Stick to the conceptual side if things for the moment.
I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
Apple doesn't consider that iPad w/keyboard to be a hybrid. They still market it as iPad + accessory, so while you may think that "Apple has a number of ways to go there", I'm thinking, any future 2 in 1 is going to be a new product. Whether that implies Mac OS, is unknown to us; maybe it will be an entirely new OS derived from Mac OS.
There is not getting away from the fact that for real productivity, a physical keyboard was needed.
Right from the very first iPad which was more of a passive (consumption) device right through to the 'Pro' models.
A major hurdle along the way was something as basic as file management which took ages to be 'half' remedied.
It doesn't matter how Apple wants to 'market' the product, devices suit different needs at different times.
A true 2in1 would be the way to go because it would increase flexibility for the user. Folding devices are another option.
As for the OS, there is no valid reason nowadays for this fragmentation from a user perspective.
One OS should be able to adapt itself to anything Apple puts out, saving developers and users time and hassle. From pro desktops through smartscreens, tablets, phones and down to car head units, earbuds and watches.
The end result should be an ecosystem that can pool hardware resources to satisfy user needs and the real gruntwork would have to be done at the IDE phase. That's a major undertaking but it should be the goal and to be honest it what I think will happen at some point.
Spouting your Huawei Gospel again; one OS to rule them all.
There isn't anything wrong with Apple's current development system for specific niches with a customized OS targeted to the hardware/screen size, and UI. It obviously works well as customer satisfaction is extremely high for Apple products.
Should Apple deliver a foldable, I expect that it to will have its own custom OS, as it should since it is different in use than either an iPad or an iPhone. That we will find out if and when it actually happens.
But 2 in 1's are also a completely different beast than Notebooks, or iPads, and should Apple actually deliver a true 2 in 1, I would expect that too would have a custom OS.
I don't really buy into your spiel, since you aren't really a daily user of anything Apple that is recent. Write once for every device will only result in less than ideal, and in many cases, a mediocre experience, for the user. I'll pass on that.
My current home daily drivers are a MBP and a MBA. Old, but pretty functional.
I was talking about the concept rather than any real product. Yes, Huawei is going to bring that idea to real products soon and there will be teething issues for sure. It's impossible to hit the ground running with something so complex but from a purely conceptual perspective there are good arguments for a universal system pulling in functionality from available devices and simplifying the development process for developers.
You are glossing over the current real failings in Apple's current setup and we are talking about supposedly very mature systems. File management for example. Until relatively recently it was a royal pain to manage such simple items as email attachments on Apple mobile devices. Physical keyboards have been performing better for tablet work in productivity terms, for example. And with good reason.
On paper, a lot has been said about HarmonyOS but even you should be able to see that virtualised hardware and various distributed technologies make more sense if you truly want collaboration between devices (moreso when smart IoT devices are already here).
Apparently, a major problem on car head units for example was the landscape vs portrait issue. I don't drive so that was never of much interest to me but HarmonyOS has reportedly solved that and has been on the market for over a year now. Now, it's self driving technology is shipping on cars together with HarmonyOS.
For sure all eyes will be on that at its roll out on high memory mobile devices very soon and I have been told that at some point it will make the jump to desktop/laptop systems too.
That's where I expect Apple to end up too at some point.
You really need to stop postulating about how great Harmony OS will be, and how uniquely easy it will be for developers, and wait for it to be delivered, because what I am seeing is not what you are.
Isn't that exactly what I said? Where did I say the deployed system would be great?
For this discussion I am speaking from a conceptual perspective as Apple doesn't have anything like what HarmonyOS is aiming for - yet.
And as I said, when HarmonyOS arrives on high memory devices it will need to mature (just like every other OS before it) but that doesn't mean the conceptual advantages suddenly vanish.
Stick to the conceptual side if things for the moment.
In the past, you waxed poetic about how great Harmony OS was, not will be.
The practical side of things is that Harmony OS is today, much a pipe dream. Show me, don't tell me, what it will do, because its just marketing to this point in time.
I don't know man. This feels like typical Apple: deny, deny, deny the thing. Right up until the moment they introduce the thing. I just feel like MacOS has been slowly but surely iOSified (iPadOSified if you will) more and more. Could I just be reinforcing my preconceived notions with non-coincidental coincidences? Probably. Likely.
It hasn’t tho. They’ve added a couple things on the surface, like the notifications center. But fundamentally Mac computing is a different use case and user experience.
They’ve been saying this perfectly clearly for years now. Does that mean there will never be a next-thing? No. But Jos was clear, just like Craig was clear.
You really like using that graphic huh? As for the OS unification, I freely admit I could be wrong and admitted as much in the comment you quoted. The clarity of their statements means little in this circumstance though. Previous declarations about different things were just as emphatic, right up to the point they weren't. As I said, it's just a feeling. It's not a prognostication or anything grand. If it turns out I'm wrong, no big deal. If it turns out I'm right I'm an omniscient all seeing God. I can live with either outcome.
They weren't nearly as emphatic. And the market around them changed in some cases. So if another company like MS, or Samsung produced a hybrid device that was actually useful then they would think about it. For now they clearly mean what they have said. Its not like they are not trying to make cross ( Apple) platform coding easier, they are working full belt on that, SwiftUI being the most portable. In the middle of these efforts they are clearly saying - no merging.
And the history of the operating systems that Apple produces is one of divergence, not convergence. From OS X, to iOS, iPad Os, watchOS and tvOS.
George is absolutely correct on this topic. He is NOT asking for merging the iOS and MacOS. He is simply expecting 2 different OSes to run in same hardware which is very much capable of doing that (M1 iPad Pro) in different scenarios, based on user selection. There is NOTHING out of ordinary in that ask from George. It is a perfectly valid expectation.
IF Apple does not take this path, the ONLY reason would be shareholder's interest - i.e. sell 2 devices to customers to increase revenue instead of selling 1 device which is capable of performing both the functions (tablet & laptop) equally well. If that is the decision that Apple takes, then that would be a bad move on the part of Apple. We will have to wait and see which way they go.
No, it's not a "perfectly valid expectation." Apple designs their hardware and operating systems concurrently as single units. They don't create generic hardware to run whatever you want to put on it. This is why their devices work as well as they do. Slapping MacOS into an iPad because some guy on a message board insists that it ought to work ok is ridiculous. It's not about greedily selling two devices instead of one. It's about not selling mismatched devices that undermine their entire business model just because some small segment of the market can't get past their fantasy narrative of "what Apple should do."
Or a different merging of a car and Truck would be the SUV which Are extremely popular with Americans.
Australia has UTE's, which are analogous to the car with beds, like the Ford Ranchero, and Chevrolet El Camino, and there are some SUV's that have this, but it isn't the defining feature.
Regarding the OP, I doubt that Apple will even consider a 2 in 1 until long after they have fully transition to Apple Silicon, and if it does happen, it will be new product category sitting between Mac Book Air/Mac Book Pro's, and the iPad. Heck, I'd expect an Folding iPhone Pro with USB4 long before a 2 in 1, and I'd be skeptical if that will ever happen either.
That's a nice way of stating that Mac OS will never run on an iPad. iPad is best in its class, tablets, and Apple won't want to risk that.
Apple already has a 2 in 1. It's the iPad Pro with its Magic Keyboard. The trouble is they have not upgraded the OS to be as powerful as that of MacOS or Windows. But that is a very fixable problem and they seem to be working on it -- chugging along slowly but steadily.
But, as has been pointed out, they now also have the option of switching to MacOS when the device is in laptop mode and then back to iPadOS when it's in tablet mode.
Apple has a number of ways to go there.
Apple doesn't consider that iPad w/keyboard to be a hybrid. They still market it as iPad + accessory, so while you may think that "Apple has a number of ways to go there", I'm thinking, any future 2 in 1 is going to be a new product. Whether that implies Mac OS, is unknown to us; maybe it will be an entirely new OS derived from Mac OS.
There is not getting away from the fact that for real productivity, a physical keyboard was needed.
Right from the very first iPad which was more of a passive (consumption) device right through to the 'Pro' models.
A major hurdle along the way was something as basic as file management which took ages to be 'half' remedied.
It doesn't matter how Apple wants to 'market' the product, devices suit different needs at different times.
A true 2in1 would be the way to go because it would increase flexibility for the user. Folding devices are another option.
As for the OS, there is no valid reason nowadays for this fragmentation from a user perspective.
One OS should be able to adapt itself to anything Apple puts out, saving developers and users time and hassle. From pro desktops through smartscreens, tablets, phones and down to car head units, earbuds and watches.
The end result should be an ecosystem that can pool hardware resources to satisfy user needs and the real gruntwork would have to be done at the IDE phase. That's a major undertaking but it should be the goal and to be honest it what I think will happen at some point.
Spouting your Huawei Gospel again; one OS to rule them all.
There isn't anything wrong with Apple's current development system for specific niches with a customized OS targeted to the hardware/screen size, and UI. It obviously works well as customer satisfaction is extremely high for Apple products.
Should Apple deliver a foldable, I expect that it to will have its own custom OS, as it should since it is different in use than either an iPad or an iPhone. That we will find out if and when it actually happens.
But 2 in 1's are also a completely different beast than Notebooks, or iPads, and should Apple actually deliver a true 2 in 1, I would expect that too would have a custom OS.
I don't really buy into your spiel, since you aren't really a daily user of anything Apple that is recent. Write once for every device will only result in less than ideal, and in many cases, a mediocre experience, for the user. I'll pass on that.
My current home daily drivers are a MBP and a MBA. Old, but pretty functional.
I was talking about the concept rather than any real product. Yes, Huawei is going to bring that idea to real products soon and there will be teething issues for sure. It's impossible to hit the ground running with something so complex but from a purely conceptual perspective there are good arguments for a universal system pulling in functionality from available devices and simplifying the development process for developers.
You are glossing over the current real failings in Apple's current setup and we are talking about supposedly very mature systems. File management for example. Until relatively recently it was a royal pain to manage such simple items as email attachments on Apple mobile devices. Physical keyboards have been performing better for tablet work in productivity terms, for example. And with good reason.
On paper, a lot has been said about HarmonyOS but even you should be able to see that virtualised hardware and various distributed technologies make more sense if you truly want collaboration between devices (moreso when smart IoT devices are already here).
Apparently, a major problem on car head units for example was the landscape vs portrait issue. I don't drive so that was never of much interest to me but HarmonyOS has reportedly solved that and has been on the market for over a year now. Now, it's self driving technology is shipping on cars together with HarmonyOS.
For sure all eyes will be on that at its roll out on high memory mobile devices very soon and I have been told that at some point it will make the jump to desktop/laptop systems too.
That's where I expect Apple to end up too at some point.
You really need to stop postulating about how great Harmony OS will be, and how uniquely easy it will be for developers, and wait for it to be delivered, because what I am seeing is not what you are.
Isn't that exactly what I said? Where did I say the deployed system would be great?
For this discussion I am speaking from a conceptual perspective as Apple doesn't have anything like what HarmonyOS is aiming for - yet.
And as I said, when HarmonyOS arrives on high memory devices it will need to mature (just like every other OS before it) but that doesn't mean the conceptual advantages suddenly vanish.
Stick to the conceptual side if things for the moment.
In the past, you waxed poetic about how great Harmony OS was, not will be.
The practical side of things is that Harmony OS is today, much a pipe dream. Show me, don't tell me, what it will do, because its just marketing to this point in time.
Forget the deployed product. Forget the marketing.
Focus on the conceptual angle. Why is that so beyond you? Are you saying you can't see the advantages?
In terms of product, it is running on routers, TVs, smart monitors, watches, cars etc. In terms of what it can do, I suggest you watch the three hour HDC technical keynote (from September 2020) on HarmonyOS 2.0 with real world demos of hardware virtualisation, distributed capabilities etc. Not marketing.
It is not my style to 'wax poetic' about anything. Feel free to quote me. I'm a realist and prefer to wait and see how things develop. However, I am not automatically 'anti' anything until it has had a chance to show its worth. That is what makes us different.
I think most users use the keyboard + trackpad for two reasons, lack of touch optimized apps, and that keyboard + trackpad is a better option than a touchscreen for many tasks. Working with large documents or complex spreadsheets is far better with keyboard + trackpad than with touch. And that's where you see a better experience in the Surface Pro, even over the iPad + Magic Keyboard. The Surface have the advantage of having full desktop apps and better multitasking. IMO, the iPad is a better tablet device, but as soon as you add a keyboard + trackpad, the Surface Pro becomes the better device.
Application UI design is important, but the fundamental driver is likely screen size imo. Productivity scales with screen size, with people being more productive as screen size goes up. There's a point of diminishing returns, probably 25 to 30 inches, but from say 5 inches to 25 inches, most users get more productive as screen size gets larger.
For certain classes of apps, like a spreadsheet or office automation, you want a certain amount of rows and columns at readable text sizes, or certain number of rows of text in a word processor, to feel really be productive. After 30 years of computing, I don't think it is an accident that laptops have settled on about 13" as the practical minimum for screen size using modern app designs and features. There are laptops with smaller screen sizes, but they simply aren't as successful as 13" laptops. Apple's tried multiple times with 12", and those laptops never stay in the lineup. The vast majority of PC laptops are 13" or bigger. Even the Chromebooks, whose hardware is really limited by price, will eventually inch towards 13" as those displays get cheaper imo.
For tablets, they are boxed in between portability and productivity. If you want to hand hold it, it needs to be about 1.5 lb or less, and being the size of a lunch tray isn't great for handling which drives screen sizes to be smaller. Then, if you want text input, the onscreen keyboard takes half the screen, making office automation tasks less productive. Hence, what I want Apple to do is offer 2 or 3 row onscreen keyboards. This yields 1 to 1.5 inches of more vertical display space, which is huge as it increases the app display area 30 to 50% with the keyboard visible.
So, people use Surface Pros with external keyboards because they want more display area for their apps. Not necessarily that they aren't touch optimized. Touch UI is important, but I don't it overcomes limitations presented by screen size.
Going the other way, I would submit that people would be just as productive on a 30" touchscreen device using software keyboards and software trackpads versus a 30" display using keyboards and mice. A folding touch display laptop - 13" folded, 18" unfolded - would make for an interesting device. Seems OEMs aren't willing to go all the way where they provide a hardware keyboard with their dual display or folding display laptops. They need to go all the way and make touchscreen text input work on these devices. They won't be lay back devices like tablets are, but mostly PC type usage.
I understand your point, but I still think that people use keyboard in the Surface Pro because lack of apps and a better experience in documents, spreadsheets, etc. The best touch UI / keyboard the experience a real keyboard / mouse offers. At the end, even Apple had to admit that, and relase the Magic Keyboard.
Apple’s El Camino.
If a future MBP adds on HDMI and drops the TouchBar (not the TouchID key) then I believe that Apple will be creating a MergedOS that could run on both M# series based Macs and iPP (even if they continue to say the hardware lines are different) over the next 3 -5 years.
I don’t expect them to ever admit that because of the Osborne Effect.
this won’t be the first time they have admitted a mistake and much later changed direction. Case in point the TrashCan MacPro. That took 6 years for them to correct.
Comments
For certain classes of apps, like a spreadsheet or office automation, you want a certain amount of rows and columns at readable text sizes, or certain number of rows of text in a word processor, to feel really be productive. After 30 years of computing, I don't think it is an accident that laptops have settled on about 13" as the practical minimum for screen size using modern app designs and features. There are laptops with smaller screen sizes, but they simply aren't as successful as 13" laptops. Apple's tried multiple times with 12", and those laptops never stay in the lineup. The vast majority of PC laptops are 13" or bigger. Even the Chromebooks, whose hardware is really limited by price, will eventually inch towards 13" as those displays get cheaper imo.
For tablets, they are boxed in between portability and productivity. If you want to hand hold it, it needs to be about 1.5 lb or less, and being the size of a lunch tray isn't great for handling which drives screen sizes to be smaller. Then, if you want text input, the onscreen keyboard takes half the screen, making office automation tasks less productive. Hence, what I want Apple to do is offer 2 or 3 row onscreen keyboards. This yields 1 to 1.5 inches of more vertical display space, which is huge as it increases the app display area 30 to 50% with the keyboard visible.
So, people use Surface Pros with external keyboards because they want more display area for their apps. Not necessarily that they aren't touch optimized. Touch UI is important, but I don't it overcomes limitations presented by screen size.
Going the other way, I would submit that people would be just as productive on a 30" touchscreen device using software keyboards and software trackpads versus a 30" display using keyboards and mice. A folding touch display laptop - 13" folded, 18" unfolded - would make for an interesting device. Seems OEMs aren't willing to go all the way where they provide a hardware keyboard with their dual display or folding display laptops. They need to go all the way and make touchscreen text input work on these devices. They won't be lay back devices like tablets are, but mostly PC type usage.
They are the REAL evil twins...
In answer to your "idea"
"had to admit", or merely took its own sweet time, and followed its existing internal roadmap?
Nothing about the iPad screams "but the competition; do something quickly".
Right from the very first iPad which was more of a passive (consumption) device right through to the 'Pro' models.
A major hurdle along the way was something as basic as file management which took ages to be 'half' remedied.
It doesn't matter how Apple wants to 'market' the product, devices suit different needs at different times.
A true 2in1 would be the way to go because it would increase flexibility for the user. Folding devices are another option.
As for the OS, there is no valid reason nowadays for this fragmentation from a user perspective.
One OS should be able to adapt itself to anything Apple puts out, saving developers and users time and hassle. From pro desktops through smartscreens, tablets, phones and down to car head units, earbuds and watches.
The end result should be an ecosystem that can pool hardware resources to satisfy user needs and the real gruntwork would have to be done at the IDE phase. That's a major undertaking but it should be the goal and to be honest it what I think will happen at some point.
There isn't anything wrong with Apple's current development system for specific niches with a customized OS targeted to the hardware/screen size, and UI. It obviously works well as customer satisfaction is extremely high for Apple products.
Should Apple deliver a foldable, I expect that it to will have its own custom OS, as it should since it is different in use than either an iPad or an iPhone. That we will find out if and when it actually happens.
But 2 in 1's are also a completely different beast than Notebooks, or iPads, and should Apple actually deliver a true 2 in 1, I would expect that too would have a custom OS.
I don't really buy into your spiel, since you aren't really a daily user of anything Apple that is recent. Write once for every device will only result in less than ideal, and in many cases, a mediocre experience, for the user. I'll pass on that.
Would it detract from the experience giving the option of either enabling touchscreens on Mac or running macOS on iPad?
Some would have raised concerns on implementing trackpad support on iPad since it is a “tablet” and therefore not a computer. “If you wanted a trackpad on an iPad, buy a Mac.”
I was talking about the concept rather than any real product. Yes, Huawei is going to bring that idea to real products soon and there will be teething issues for sure. It's impossible to hit the ground running with something so complex but from a purely conceptual perspective there are good arguments for a universal system pulling in functionality from available devices and simplifying the development process for developers.
https://medium.com/huawei-developers/harmonyos-4bfe31c99be7
You are glossing over the current real failings in Apple's current setup and we are talking about supposedly very mature systems. File management for example. Until relatively recently it was a royal pain to manage such simple items as email attachments on Apple mobile devices. Physical keyboards have been performing better for tablet work in productivity terms, for example. And with good reason.
On paper, a lot has been said about HarmonyOS but even you should be able to see that virtualised hardware and various distributed technologies make more sense if you truly want collaboration between devices (moreso when smart IoT devices are already here).
Apparently, a major problem on car head units for example was the landscape vs portrait issue. I don't drive so that was never of much interest to me but HarmonyOS has reportedly solved that and has been on the market for over a year now. Now, it's self driving technology is shipping on cars together with HarmonyOS.
For sure all eyes will be on that at its roll out on high memory mobile devices very soon and I have been told that at some point it will make the jump to desktop/laptop systems too.
That's where I expect Apple to end up too at some point.
For this discussion I am speaking from a conceptual perspective as Apple doesn't have anything like what HarmonyOS is aiming for - yet.
And as I said, when HarmonyOS arrives on high memory devices it will need to mature (just like every other OS before it) but that doesn't mean the conceptual advantages suddenly vanish.
Stick to the conceptual side if things for the moment.
The practical side of things is that Harmony OS is today, much a pipe dream. Show me, don't tell me, what it will do, because its just marketing to this point in time.
Focus on the conceptual angle. Why is that so beyond you? Are you saying you can't see the advantages?
In terms of product, it is running on routers, TVs, smart monitors, watches, cars etc. In terms of what it can do, I suggest you watch the three hour HDC technical keynote (from September 2020) on HarmonyOS 2.0 with real world demos of hardware virtualisation, distributed capabilities etc. Not marketing.
It is not my style to 'wax poetic' about anything. Feel free to quote me. I'm a realist and prefer to wait and see how things develop. However, I am not automatically 'anti' anything until it has had a chance to show its worth. That is what makes us different.
I don’t expect them to ever admit that because of the Osborne Effect.
this won’t be the first time they have admitted a mistake and much later changed direction. Case in point the TrashCan MacPro. That took 6 years for them to correct.