Epic Games admits its own developer agreements ban rule-breakers

AppleInsider

Epic Games doesn't tolerate rule-breakers on its platforms, Apple argued in the Epic v. Apple trial, drawing parallels to the actions that led to "Fortnite" being removed from the App Store.

Credit: Epic Games

Epic Games Technical Director Andrew Grant was on the stand Wednesday, explaining why a game like "Fortnite" couldn't be delivered as a web application.

During his testimony, however, Apple's lawyers began a line of questioning to establish that, much like Apple, Epic has developer agreements within Unreal Engine and actively enforces rules on games like "Fortnite."

For example, Apple's lawyers asked Grant whether people who cheat within "Fortnite" can be permanently banned. Grant answered yes, according to an account from The Verge reporter Adi Robertson.

The lawyer continued, asking Grant whether Epic's brand was dependent on people having a good experience within "Fortnite" and that everyone is "on the same level playing field."

"If the integrity of the game falls apart, and people believe the rules no longer apply to them, then people may no longer be inclined to play the game," Apple's lawyers continued, claiming that this could lead to a "downward spiral" of the platform.

Without directly stating it, Apple is drawing comparisons to Epic's move that led to the removal of "Fortnite" from the App Store. Epic Games in a hot fix patch implemented a direct payment system that bypassed Apple's in-app purchases platform. That was a clear violation of Apple's developer guidelines.

At another point, Apple's lawyers characterized Epic Games implementing its secretive hot fix as "dishonest" and "acting without integrity." Grant responded by saying he doesn't know what to do with that characterization.

Earlier in the day, lawyers for Apple and Epic argued about the differences and similarities between iPhone and game consoles. Apple issued a warning to the likes of Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo in its opening statement, saying that a ruling against iOS could precipitate similar action against platforms like PlayStation and Xbox.

Epic called on Lori Wright, Microsoft's head of Xbox business development, to the stand to argue that consoles are highly specialized devices purpose-built for gaming, while iPhone is more of a general purpose product. Epic hammered home the fact that console makers need to appease developers because they sell hardware at a loss, unlike Apple.

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silvergold84

Epic, Sony , Xbox, android.. everybody ask 30% on their stores. Epic itself don’t admit break rules. So .. Apple have right! It’s their store! They offer the only one real alternative to the people: everybody else use Android with the same os and the same opportunity to download and install trash from online. The only different is iOS. My iPhone is powerful and secure that any android, I like to keep it in this way like Apple is doing now. 

ihatescreennames

AppleInsider said:

At another point, Apple's lawyers characterized Epic Games implementing its secretive hot fix as "dishonest" and "acting without integrity." Grant responded by saying he doesn't know what to do with that characterization.

What Grant means is he doesn’t know how to respond to that without either looking really bad or lying.

anantksundaram

Is this guy an idiot, or just playing one in a courtroom?

fordee

Epic called on Lori Wright, Microsoft's head of Xbox business development, to the stand to argue that consoles are highly specialized devices purpose-built for gaming, while iPhone is more of a general purpose product. Epic hammered home the fact that console makers need to appease developers because they sell hardware at a loss, unlike Apple. 

Who cares if an iPhone is a general purpose product. As far as Epic is concerned, it is a games machine. I.e., the same as Xbox or Switch, and those platforms are tightly controlled.

mcdave

silvergold84 said:

Epic, Sony , Xbox, android.. everybody ask 30% on their stores. Epic itself don’t admit break rules. So .. Apple have right! It’s their store! They offer the only one real alternative to the people: everybody else use Android with the same os and the same opportunity to download and install trash from online. The only different is iOS. My iPhone is powerful and secure that any android, I like to keep it in this way like Apple is doing now. 

Tim Sweeney doesn’t care about our customer experience. Tim Sweeney cares about Tim Sweeney getting his own way.

pichael

What I find really interesting about this “fact” that games consoles are sold at a loss idea is the actual fact that Nintendo only ever sold the Wii U at a loss. Every other console they released is sold to a profit. I wonder if Apple’s layers will bring that up? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20095125.amp

xyzzy01

silvergold84 said:

Epic, Sony , Xbox, android.. everybody ask 30% on their stores. Epic itself don’t admit break rules. So .. Apple have right! It’s their store! They offer the only one real alternative to the people: everybody else use Android with the same os and the same opportunity to download and install trash from online. The only different is iOS. My iPhone is powerful and secure that any android, I like to keep it in this way like Apple is doing now. 

First: Epic charges only 12%, not 30%. They also drop the fee for using their engine if you sell through them - that is another 5% which you don't have to pay.

Second: In the context of Android, you clearly have a choice - you don't have to pay the 30% - you can sideload the app, or even install another app store. "Oh, but then my customers won't find my app or install it" - great, you've now proven that there is value to being in that store and can absolutely get off your high horse and follow the terms and conditions.

While in general I loathe Epic - both their general business modell (F2P ruins gaming) and their blatant violation of the terms - I think Apple trying to get a cut out of everything is  problematic. Especially so when it comes to markets which they themselves have enterered, e.g. music streaming. Using a dominant position - cell phones is a duopoly - to gain benefits in a separate market is not good.

A modern cell phone is a general purpose platform, just like a computer - it's just more portable.  How would we like it if Microsoft wanted a cut of all economic activity on their platform, or Apple on Mac? It's not like providing APIs is a ground breaking and unique value for a cell phone, those exist on all platforms - which is what they initially wanted to earn their money from.

foregoneconclusion

pichael said:

What I find really interesting about this “fact” that games consoles are sold at a loss idea is the actual fact that Nintendo only ever sold the Wii U at a loss. Every other console they released is sold to a profit. I wonder if Apple’s layers will bring that up? https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20095125.amp

I think the PS3/360 generation was also the last one for Sony/MS where they were willing to take large losses at launch. The subsequent generations were designed to be relatively close to breaking even at launch. Basically, the goal became to start turning a profit on hardware sometime during the 2nd year of manufacturing. 

foregoneconclusion

xyzzy01 said: First: Epic charges only 12%, not 30%. They also drop the fee for using their engine if you sell through them - that is another 5% which you don't have to pay.

Epic has two tiers: 12% (they don't handle transactions like the App Store does) and 25% (they do handle transactions like the App Store does).

foregoneconclusion

xyzzy01 said: Second: In the context of Android, you clearly have a choice - you don't have to pay the 30% - you can sideload the app, or even install another app store. "Oh, but then my customers won't find my app or install it" - great, you've now proven that there is value to being in that store and can absolutely get off your high horse and follow the terms and conditions.

From a consumer perspective (not a developer perspective), it's already known that Android mobile users prefer the Play Store approach. So arguing that side loading etc. should be forced onto iOS is not really a consumer based argument. That's a problem from the anti-trust side of things since consumers are supposed to be the focus with those kinds of issues. 

glennh

Really!

Here are a few facts and thoughts about this whole trial and the constant entitled AppStore griping:

How about if you do not like the rules, you pay for the licenses, patents, R&D and manufacturing of your own devices and the software that consumers will buy.

Just because my store is bigger and my consumers are richer, I don’t have to let you hang out and make a living in my store or from my customers!

If by chance, I do decide to let you hang out in my store and make a living, here are my rules. If you don’t like MY RULES which as a private entity I can make as arbitrary as I wish, you can go hangout and  make a living elsewhere!

As an Apple Shareholder, I did not think anyone making money in the AppStore is entitled to have access to “my” customers, software, hardware or IP without paying me for my return on investment!

And YES, the risk you take by being in my store is the fact that I can and will make my own products at a discount to compete with yours while making my products more attractive to my customers!  

Lastly, if you do not like any of the fore mentioned  thoughts and facts, you can sell your wares and goods else where. It’s a FREE country but my store is not! Welcome to Business 101 and REAL LIFE! 

GeorgeBMac

So, what's the big deal?  Isn't that how things work these days:

"I make the rules.  You follow the rules.  But I will break them whenever I want and then blame you".

Integrity is so old fashioned.   It's like wearing bell bottoms & tie-dye.

StrangeDays

Epic has a platform itself and they won’t let you sell random mods thru it without getting a piece, right? Case closed. 

Beats

To the morons who defended Epic,

Even Epic doesn’t agree with you.