Hey, I applaud you! If only more people could take an oath of rationality on the topic, I would be quite happy. However, you and I both know that there is no way you can say with a straight face that there aren't 10 more to every one of you who would take the ball and run with it as far as they can given the right media "ammo", right?
I'm sure the anti-war crowd will be sure to tug on that "reality" string as hard as they can. They will endeavor to blow it far out of proportion to what it really is. It may be a "big" deal, but they will blow it out to be a "monstrous" deal. You can count on all sense of objectivity/sensibility going out of the window when you hear from these people here on out. This will make their "message" all the more vacuous, once you realize what they are attempting to do.
You're so cynical.
Attempting? It's already started. There will be plenty of folks using casualties to their political advantage, here and abroad.
besides that, there's no way the reality of "war" has set in when you have maybe 30 people dead out of a force of over 300,000.
when 10,000+ are dead, then the reality of war will have set in.
Bascially agreed. Not to diminish the losses we have had...but they have been very light. I'm sure the Pentagon presented the President with a loss assessment before we went. My guess is they figured 1,000-2,000 allied casualties. Horrible as that is, in military terms it is light.
As far as Bush, I think it is just his personality. He's a centered guy. I don't he explodes much or does much out of anger. That's good thing.
Hey, I applaud you! If only more people could take an oath of rationality on the topic, I would be quite happy. However, you and I both know that there is no way you can say with a straight face that there aren't 10 more to every one of you who would take the ball and run with it as far as they can given the right media "ammo", right?
Absolutely, and acting fanatically doesn't work as often as those people will hope, especially not in this situation. Twisting and/or exaggerating the truth to try to make other people agree with you isn't going to be worth the amount of criticism it will bring when people realize what you are doing. I am pretty sure almost everybody, regardless of their stance on this war, would agree to the following statements;
- Killing people sucks
- Being killed would suck
- Saddam Hussein does bad things and should be stopped
That's a very general way of putting it, but it breaks down a few of the issues at hand. After these issues are looked at is where it splits, and people start forming different ideas of how they should be resolved. But without trying to decide who's right or wrong, we can look at the anti-war demonstrations, pro-war demonstrations, people dying, and people fighting, for an evaluation of the reality of war. The people on both sides of the argument want the same thing, to do the best for the world.
Quote:
Originally posted by finboy
You're so cynical.
Attempting? It's already started. There will be plenty of folks using casualties to their political advantage, here and abroad.
I'm not saying that there weren't horrible things being done over there by Hussein, but you should notice that our own government (and Media) does the same thing to us.
Still, everything we've seen to this point (save one photo and some unconfirmed reports) fails to drive home the real point: that war is hell.
I'm no peace loving groupie by any stretch, but perhaps it's the constant media coverage that's turning this war into a play by play hockey game. When in fact, as you've put it, war is hell.
Quote:
I don't really know how much less desensitized you guys are; if the television ads and news breaks I see during Canadian hockey broadcasts are any indication, maybe a bit less. [Based on the people I've met and the TV I've seen (not a scientific assesment obviously)], Canada seems to be a friendlier place than the US overall, more easy-going maybe. Though I'm sure [the people in Toronto are pretty much like [those from large American cities like Chicago or New York]. [/B]
I perhaps shouldn't have generalized about Americans. While we probably a less violent society (murder rate lowers), we get our share of horrific killings in Toronto. That plus we love our hockey fights.
I'm not saying that there weren't horrible things being done over there by Hussein, but you should notice that our own government (and Media) does the same thing to us.
I think that to even mention ours and theirs in the same sentence does a grave disservice to the US, but "the same thing" isn't even close.
I think that to even mention ours and theirs in the same sentence does a grave disservice to the US, but "the same thing" isn't even close.
Oh sorry, I hope you didn't think that by 'the same thing' I meant what has been happening in Iraq. I was referring to using the numbers of casualties for political propaganda you were talking about here;
Quote:
You're so cynical.
Attempting? It's already started. There will be plenty of folks using casualties to their political advantage, here and abroad.
I wasn't trying to compare our government to Iraq's.
I of course do not believe that they planted these, but, I could imagine such a world where that sort of thing could happen . . . after all, we are out on a limb, financially and foriegn policy wise . . . it sure would sew up some of the problems right-nicely
but we would or couldn't do that without getting caught in a big way and then eventually looking like insane maniacs
Well things are going along pretty much like I thought they would. This isn't going to be a quick and easy brush with war like some said. Have you seen the stock market lately? Oh well.
Well things are going along pretty much like I thought they would. This isn't going to be a quick and easy brush with war like some said. Have you seen the stock market lately? Oh well.
On the contrary, you should give some credit that the pro-Iraq war crowd is content with the notion that the operation will take as long as it takes, as long as it isn't long on the order of years. The only people who were thinking it would be a "quick and easy brush" are generally the assertions of what the anti-war crowd think the pro-war crowd are thinking (just like they "predicted" the US would be carpet bombing Iraq, indiscriminantly mowing down unarmed civilians, and their assumptions that the "other side" believe what they do because they lack the concept of the darkside of war, etc, etc, etc). In fact it is ironic to imagine that the anti-war crowd "have it all figured out", but the day the operation sees a few setbacks and limited casualties, they are hysterically chanting, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling! I knew it!" It's almost like you are hoping for tragedy just to affirm your own positions (a might bit "sick", if you ask me).
Yes, the stock market is down, but I guess that blows away your theory that Bush wanted a war just to pump up the economy. It was also "up" just prior to that. If you know anything about the market, you know that watching for day to day fluctuations as indications of larger trends is just about pointless.
If you know anything about the market, you know that watching for day to day fluctuations as indications of larger trends is just about pointless.
Wasn't it you in a recent thread that linked to graphs about how the NYSE or the Dow was rising because of the certainty the war was bringing? Why quote it to support you in one thread when you know in all honesty that it doesn't support your case?
I believe this war was a calamitous mistake: in its timing, the manner in which it was sold to us and the world . . these may seem unimportant when you think about the reasons for the war, but what they mean is that all of the reasons (the destruction of WMD, Terrorism etc) will be greatly undermined by what appears to almost everybody except those directly behind the war and the people in the war . . . all of which are seen as aggressors and ideological dupes by the rest of the world, as naked aggression and Impirialism.
I think that we assumed Iraqis would welcome us: we are arrogant and sheltered and don't understand that part of the world . . . Iraqis are fierce proud warriors and tribes men . . . they actually respect cruelty . . . Saddam imprisoned his own son for three months and had him tortured . . . this isn't only a Saddam kind of thing this is part of the background of the tribal creed for many of the once nomadic peoples that now make up Iraq.
They feel invaded, Hell!, they ARE invaded . . the residents of Bagdad are not going to dance in the streets . . . maybe a few but the 4.5 millionpeople are armed and waiting and take great pride in being able to suffer through adversity and fight guerilla style . . . its in their history
Mark my words, a big sandstorm is coming and the Marines are going to wait it out . . . my bet is is that the Iraqis, who live with sandstorms and have done so for centuries will fell right at home and will use the opportunity . .
I hope I am wrong . . .
by the way, I was against the war, but now that it has started all I want is for the US to win as fast as possible . . . they cannot just stop now, it is too late for that, they have to win and win decisivley.
Wasn't it you in a recent thread that linked to graphs about how the NYSE or the Dow was rising because of the certainty the war was bringing? Why quote it to support you in one thread when you know in all honesty that it doesn't support your case?
The stock market was climbing the last few days, it was just today that it fell.
I believe this war was a calamitous mistake: in its timing, the manner in which it was sold to us and the world . . these may seem unimportant when you think about the reasons for the war, but what they mean is that all of the reasons (the destruction of WMD, Terrorism etc) will be greatly undermined by what appears to almost everybody except those directly behind the war and the people in the war . . . all of which are seen as aggressors and ideological dupes by the rest of the world, as naked aggression and Impirialism.
I think that we assumed Iraqis would welcome us: we are arrogant and sheltered and don't understand that part of the world . . . Iraqis are fierce proud warriors and tribes men . . . they actually respect cruelty . . . Saddam imprisoned his own son for three months and had him tortured . . . this isn't only a Saddam kind of thing this is part of the background of the tribal creed for many of the once nomadic peoples that now make up Iraq.
They feel invaded, Hell!, they ARE invaded . . the residents of Bagdad are not going to dance in the streets . . . maybe a few but the 4.5 millionpeople are armed and waiting and take great pride in being able to suffer through adversity and fight guerilla style . . . its in their history
Mark my words, a big sandstorm is coming and the Marines are going to wait it out . . . my bet is that the Iraqis, who live with sandstorms and have done so for centuries will fell right at home and will use the opportunity . .
I hope I am wrong . . .
by the way, I was against the war, but now that it has started all I want is for the US to win as fast as possible . . . they cannot just stop now, it is too late for that, they have to win and win decisivley.
I would just add that the reality that is setting in is that the whole world does not get the same propaganda that we create for ourselves
they don't know that if they are attacked by the Americans then they are getting attacked by the "Good Guys"
They might hate Saddam but long before Saddam they hated teh English, and fought them fiercely for years, and also they hated Jews . . . and everybody in that region sees our every move as just another manner of supporting Israel
The reality that is setting in is that we may have blundered
we may have raced up to Baghdad thinking they would throw down there arms when we approached
and we may have therefore left ourselves exposed and thin
I hope I'm just yelling about a falling sky: merely chirping "the Sky is Falling"
but I can't help thinking about the hubris of the Space Shuttle and our over confident adoration of all things technological
I think that we assumed Iraqis would welcome us: we are arrogant and sheltered and don't understand that part of the world . . . Iraqis are fierce proud warriors and tribes men . . . they actually respect cruelty . . . Saddam imprisoned his own son for three months and had him tortured . . . this isn't only a Saddam kind of thing this is part of the background of the tribal creed for many of the once nomadic peoples that now make up Iraq.
They feel invaded, Hell!, they ARE invaded . . the residents of Bagdad are not going to dance in the streets . . . maybe a few but the 4.5 millionpeople are armed and waiting and take great pride in being able to suffer through adversity and fight guerilla style . . . its in their history
Mark my words, a big sandstorm is coming and the Marines are going to wait it out . . . my bet is that the Iraqis, who live with sandstorms and have done so for centuries will fell right at home and will use the opportunity . .
I hope I am wrong . . .
by the way, I was against the war, but now that it has started all I want is for the US to win as fast as possible . . . they cannot just stop now, it is too late for that, they have to win and win decisivley.
I would just add that the reality that is setting in is that the whole world does not get the same propaganda that we create for ourselves
they don't know that if they are attacked by the Americans then they are getting attacked by the "Good Guys"
They might hate Saddam but long before Saddam they hated the English, and fought them fiercely for years, and also, they hated Jews . . . and everybody in that region sees our every move as just another manner of supporting Israel
The reality that is setting in is that we may have blundered
we may have raced up to Baghdad thinking they would throw down there arms when we approached
and we may have therefore left ourselves exposed and thin
our flanks wide open for reaming
we are sheltered and over-civilized: we cry foul when people not dressed in combat gear shoot at us, as if they weren't playing by the rules of some "Good-guy / Bad-guy" game . . .
I hope I'm just yelling about a falling sky: merely chirping "the Sky is Falling"
but I can't help thinking about the hubris of the Space Shuttle and our over confident adoration of all things technological
Comments
Originally posted by Randycat99
I'm sure the anti-war crowd will be sure to tug on that "reality" string as hard as they can. They will endeavor to blow it far out of proportion to what it really is. It may be a "big" deal, but they will blow it out to be a "monstrous" deal. You can count on all sense of objectivity/sensibility going out of the window when you hear from these people here on out. This will make their "message" all the more vacuous, once you realize what they are attempting to do.
You're so cynical.
Attempting? It's already started. There will be plenty of folks using casualties to their political advantage, here and abroad.
Originally posted by alcimedes
besides that, there's no way the reality of "war" has set in when you have maybe 30 people dead out of a force of over 300,000.
when 10,000+ are dead, then the reality of war will have set in.
Bascially agreed. Not to diminish the losses we have had...but they have been very light. I'm sure the Pentagon presented the President with a loss assessment before we went. My guess is they figured 1,000-2,000 allied casualties. Horrible as that is, in military terms it is light.
As far as Bush, I think it is just his personality. He's a centered guy. I don't he explodes much or does much out of anger. That's good thing.
Originally posted by Randycat99
Hey, I applaud you! If only more people could take an oath of rationality on the topic, I would be quite happy. However, you and I both know that there is no way you can say with a straight face that there aren't 10 more to every one of you who would take the ball and run with it as far as they can given the right media "ammo", right?
Absolutely, and acting fanatically doesn't work as often as those people will hope, especially not in this situation. Twisting and/or exaggerating the truth to try to make other people agree with you isn't going to be worth the amount of criticism it will bring when people realize what you are doing. I am pretty sure almost everybody, regardless of their stance on this war, would agree to the following statements;
- Killing people sucks
- Being killed would suck
- Saddam Hussein does bad things and should be stopped
That's a very general way of putting it, but it breaks down a few of the issues at hand. After these issues are looked at is where it splits, and people start forming different ideas of how they should be resolved. But without trying to decide who's right or wrong, we can look at the anti-war demonstrations, pro-war demonstrations, people dying, and people fighting, for an evaluation of the reality of war. The people on both sides of the argument want the same thing, to do the best for the world.
Originally posted by finboy
You're so cynical.
Attempting? It's already started. There will be plenty of folks using casualties to their political advantage, here and abroad.
I'm not saying that there weren't horrible things being done over there by Hussein, but you should notice that our own government (and Media) does the same thing to us.
Originally posted by Moogs
Still, everything we've seen to this point (save one photo and some unconfirmed reports) fails to drive home the real point: that war is hell.
I'm no peace loving groupie by any stretch, but perhaps it's the constant media coverage that's turning this war into a play by play hockey game. When in fact, as you've put it, war is hell.
I don't really know how much less desensitized you guys are; if the television ads and news breaks I see during Canadian hockey broadcasts are any indication, maybe a bit less. [Based on the people I've met and the TV I've seen (not a scientific assesment obviously)], Canada seems to be a friendlier place than the US overall, more easy-going maybe. Though I'm sure [the people in Toronto are pretty much like [those from large American cities like Chicago or New York]. [/B]
I perhaps shouldn't have generalized about Americans. While we probably a less violent society (murder rate lowers), we get our share of horrific killings in Toronto. That plus we love our hockey fights.
Originally posted by iBrowse
I'm not saying that there weren't horrible things being done over there by Hussein, but you should notice that our own government (and Media) does the same thing to us.
I think that to even mention ours and theirs in the same sentence does a grave disservice to the US, but "the same thing" isn't even close.
Originally posted by finboy
I think that to even mention ours and theirs in the same sentence does a grave disservice to the US, but "the same thing" isn't even close.
Oh sorry, I hope you didn't think that by 'the same thing' I meant what has been happening in Iraq. I was referring to using the numbers of casualties for political propaganda you were talking about here;
You're so cynical.
Attempting? It's already started. There will be plenty of folks using casualties to their political advantage, here and abroad.
I wasn't trying to compare our government to Iraq's.
May the war end swiftly.
Originally posted by Randycat99
The US must have "planted" it, right?
I of course do not believe that they planted these, but, I could imagine such a world where that sort of thing could happen . . . after all, we are out on a limb, financially and foriegn policy wise . . . it sure would sew up some of the problems right-nicely
but we would or couldn't do that without getting caught in a big way and then eventually looking like insane maniacs
so, no we of course wouldn't plant evidence
and I'm not being toungue-in-cheek either
"Oh, Saddam killing his people by the thousands WOULD be a perfect propaganda tool for Bush... FICTION!"
Originally posted by Outsider
100 acre chemical weapons complex? How could the UN inspectors miss this?
Maybe this is why?
Originally posted by jimmac
Well things are going along pretty much like I thought they would. This isn't going to be a quick and easy brush with war like some said. Have you seen the stock market lately? Oh well.
On the contrary, you should give some credit that the pro-Iraq war crowd is content with the notion that the operation will take as long as it takes, as long as it isn't long on the order of years. The only people who were thinking it would be a "quick and easy brush" are generally the assertions of what the anti-war crowd think the pro-war crowd are thinking (just like they "predicted" the US would be carpet bombing Iraq, indiscriminantly mowing down unarmed civilians, and their assumptions that the "other side" believe what they do because they lack the concept of the darkside of war, etc, etc, etc). In fact it is ironic to imagine that the anti-war crowd "have it all figured out", but the day the operation sees a few setbacks and limited casualties, they are hysterically chanting, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling! I knew it!" It's almost like you are hoping for tragedy just to affirm your own positions (a might bit "sick", if you ask me).
Yes, the stock market is down, but I guess that blows away your theory that Bush wanted a war just to pump up the economy. It was also "up" just prior to that. If you know anything about the market, you know that watching for day to day fluctuations as indications of larger trends is just about pointless.
Originally posted by Randycat99
If you know anything about the market, you know that watching for day to day fluctuations as indications of larger trends is just about pointless.
Wasn't it you in a recent thread that linked to graphs about how the NYSE or the Dow was rising because of the certainty the war was bringing? Why quote it to support you in one thread when you know in all honesty that it doesn't support your case?
Originally posted by Randycat99
[B]
boy you sure have them all figured out . . . .
I believe this war was a calamitous mistake: in its timing, the manner in which it was sold to us and the world . . these may seem unimportant when you think about the reasons for the war, but what they mean is that all of the reasons (the destruction of WMD, Terrorism etc) will be greatly undermined by what appears to almost everybody except those directly behind the war and the people in the war . . . all of which are seen as aggressors and ideological dupes by the rest of the world, as naked aggression and Impirialism.
I think that we assumed Iraqis would welcome us: we are arrogant and sheltered and don't understand that part of the world . . . Iraqis are fierce proud warriors and tribes men . . . they actually respect cruelty . . . Saddam imprisoned his own son for three months and had him tortured . . . this isn't only a Saddam kind of thing this is part of the background of the tribal creed for many of the once nomadic peoples that now make up Iraq.
They feel invaded, Hell!, they ARE invaded . . the residents of Bagdad are not going to dance in the streets . . . maybe a few but the 4.5 millionpeople are armed and waiting and take great pride in being able to suffer through adversity and fight guerilla style . . . its in their history
Mark my words, a big sandstorm is coming and the Marines are going to wait it out . . . my bet is is that the Iraqis, who live with sandstorms and have done so for centuries will fell right at home and will use the opportunity . .
I hope I am wrong . . .
by the way, I was against the war, but now that it has started all I want is for the US to win as fast as possible . . . they cannot just stop now, it is too late for that, they have to win and win decisivley.
Originally posted by bunge
Wasn't it you in a recent thread that linked to graphs about how the NYSE or the Dow was rising because of the certainty the war was bringing? Why quote it to support you in one thread when you know in all honesty that it doesn't support your case?
The stock market was climbing the last few days, it was just today that it fell.
Originally posted by pfflam
boy you sure have them all figured out . . . .
I believe this war was a calamitous mistake: in its timing, the manner in which it was sold to us and the world . . these may seem unimportant when you think about the reasons for the war, but what they mean is that all of the reasons (the destruction of WMD, Terrorism etc) will be greatly undermined by what appears to almost everybody except those directly behind the war and the people in the war . . . all of which are seen as aggressors and ideological dupes by the rest of the world, as naked aggression and Impirialism.
I think that we assumed Iraqis would welcome us: we are arrogant and sheltered and don't understand that part of the world . . . Iraqis are fierce proud warriors and tribes men . . . they actually respect cruelty . . . Saddam imprisoned his own son for three months and had him tortured . . . this isn't only a Saddam kind of thing this is part of the background of the tribal creed for many of the once nomadic peoples that now make up Iraq.
They feel invaded, Hell!, they ARE invaded . . the residents of Bagdad are not going to dance in the streets . . . maybe a few but the 4.5 millionpeople are armed and waiting and take great pride in being able to suffer through adversity and fight guerilla style . . . its in their history
Mark my words, a big sandstorm is coming and the Marines are going to wait it out . . . my bet is that the Iraqis, who live with sandstorms and have done so for centuries will fell right at home and will use the opportunity . .
I hope I am wrong . . .
by the way, I was against the war, but now that it has started all I want is for the US to win as fast as possible . . . they cannot just stop now, it is too late for that, they have to win and win decisivley.
I would just add that the reality that is setting in is that the whole world does not get the same propaganda that we create for ourselves
they don't know that if they are attacked by the Americans then they are getting attacked by the "Good Guys"
They might hate Saddam but long before Saddam they hated teh English, and fought them fiercely for years, and also they hated Jews . . . and everybody in that region sees our every move as just another manner of supporting Israel
The reality that is setting in is that we may have blundered
we may have raced up to Baghdad thinking they would throw down there arms when we approached
and we may have therefore left ourselves exposed and thin
I hope I'm just yelling about a falling sky: merely chirping "the Sky is Falling"
but I can't help thinking about the hubris of the Space Shuttle and our over confident adoration of all things technological
Originally posted by pfflam
I think that we assumed Iraqis would welcome us: we are arrogant and sheltered and don't understand that part of the world . . . Iraqis are fierce proud warriors and tribes men . . . they actually respect cruelty . . . Saddam imprisoned his own son for three months and had him tortured . . . this isn't only a Saddam kind of thing this is part of the background of the tribal creed for many of the once nomadic peoples that now make up Iraq.
They feel invaded, Hell!, they ARE invaded . . the residents of Bagdad are not going to dance in the streets . . . maybe a few but the 4.5 millionpeople are armed and waiting and take great pride in being able to suffer through adversity and fight guerilla style . . . its in their history
Mark my words, a big sandstorm is coming and the Marines are going to wait it out . . . my bet is that the Iraqis, who live with sandstorms and have done so for centuries will fell right at home and will use the opportunity . .
I hope I am wrong . . .
by the way, I was against the war, but now that it has started all I want is for the US to win as fast as possible . . . they cannot just stop now, it is too late for that, they have to win and win decisivley.
I would just add that the reality that is setting in is that the whole world does not get the same propaganda that we create for ourselves
they don't know that if they are attacked by the Americans then they are getting attacked by the "Good Guys"
They might hate Saddam but long before Saddam they hated the English, and fought them fiercely for years, and also, they hated Jews . . . and everybody in that region sees our every move as just another manner of supporting Israel
The reality that is setting in is that we may have blundered
we may have raced up to Baghdad thinking they would throw down there arms when we approached
and we may have therefore left ourselves exposed and thin
our flanks wide open for reaming
we are sheltered and over-civilized: we cry foul when people not dressed in combat gear shoot at us, as if they weren't playing by the rules of some "Good-guy / Bad-guy" game . . .
I hope I'm just yelling about a falling sky: merely chirping "the Sky is Falling"
but I can't help thinking about the hubris of the Space Shuttle and our over confident adoration of all things technological