Apple has been accused of making a number of efforts to appease Beijing, including storing Chinese user data on locally owned servers
As a Canadian, I, too, would prefer that my data be on Canadian servers, not in the US. As a web app developer, I always choose Canadian hosting first. There is nothing wrong with keeping data within the borders of your own country. This should not be frowned upon.
LOL. Yeah local hosting sounds great...except when that local data is the property of a brutal authoritarian regime that has no qualms of imprisoning you, harvesting your organs, murdering you, or waging genocide against your people.
Sounds peachy.
These words read very much like the description British ambassador wrote back to the Queen when first met the Qin emperor. Chinese politics is always like this for thousand years.
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
There you go again: 'could'. They didn't actually do much at all. I could read it again and again but it won't change the facts as they stand.
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
There you go again: 'could'. They didn't actually do much at all. I could read it again and again but it won't change the facts as they stand.
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
Boy, you sure are trying to bury China's human rights violations. Will the PRC give you social credits that you can cash out in Spain?
My comments, and others as well on human rights, is certainly pertinent to the topic of the thread, which is Apple's increasing reliance on Chinese suppliers.
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
There you go again: 'could'. They didn't actually do much at all. I could read it again and again but it won't change the facts as they stand.
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
Boy, you sure are trying to bury China's human rights violations. Will the PRC give you social credits that you can cash out in Spain?
My comments, and others as well on human rights, is certainly pertinent to the topic of the thread, which is Apple's increasing reliance on Chinese suppliers.
The easiest way to bury what you are alleging against me would be to simply not reply to you.
I actually pointed some things out from a factual perspective based on my own past attempts to find real information.
I am not pro-China/US or anti-China/US. I simply prefer to be given factual information.
There isn't a lot of that available. You just linked to Amnesty, for example, which specifically states that it is impossible to know what is really going on with many situations. That didn't stop them from slipping in the habitual 'estimated one million Uyghurs' though.
It looks like you missed this too:
"Torture and other ill-treatment
A decade after dozens of detainees were held in a CIA-operated secret detention programme – authorized from 2001 to 2009 – during which systematic human rights violations were committed, including enforced disappearance, torture and other ill-treatment, no person suspected of criminal responsibility had been brought to justice for these crimes. The limited investigations conducted into those crimes were closed without charges being brought against anyone."
Or this from Brown University (links I've presented you with in the past) :
The War on Terror has involved major human rights and civil liberties violations, including detention without trial, torture, expanded US government surveillance, and racial profiling.
The US transported terror suspects to dozens of countries with more lax human rights standards, where they have faced torture or mistreatment.
The US government is conducting counterterror activities in 85 countries, vastly expanding this war across the globe.
The US 'war on terror' has cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Should Apple pull out of the US in protest? Let's get real.
You are not interested in the nuances and complexities in these situations. You are not even interested in a balanced factual view (even if that is only partial) of what is going on. You are simply anti-China. You are pushing an agenda and lost all credibility long ago as a result.
How long will it be before you bring the South China Seas into this? That is the pattern you usually follow.
This thread is about the Apple supply chain. The article touches on the political side of things but it isn't a political article. Out of hundreds of Chinese suppliers, it mentions just seven that are alleged to have used forced labour. That's right, alleged.
My original comment simply pointed out a reality. That there is very little factual information available and most of what is said and reported on tends to come from dubious sources on both sides or use wild estimates. That is unquestionable.
If real verifiable information were available then little would be 'alleged, rumoured, estimated' etc and governments and world organisations would have clear options open to them.
Currently they don't and, perhaps sadly, it might not change much either because while all this has been going on, 'business' has been the real driver. For the US with the trade war and for the EU with a seven year negotiation of a China trade deal.
That business is directly linked to the battle for technological supremacy.
For all the banner waving, human rights will be way down the list.
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
There you go again: 'could'. They didn't actually do much at all. I could read it again and again but it won't change the facts as they stand.
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
Boy, you sure are trying to bury China's human rights violations. Will the PRC give you social credits that you can cash out in Spain?
My comments, and others as well on human rights, is certainly pertinent to the topic of the thread, which is Apple's increasing reliance on Chinese suppliers.
The easiest way to bury what you are alleging against me would be to simply not reply to you.
I actually pointed some things out from a factual perspective based on my own past attempts to find real information.
I am not pro-China/US or anti-China/US. I simply prefer to be given factual information.
There isn't a lot of that available. You just linked to Amnesty, for example, which specifically states that it is impossible to know what is really going on with many situations. That didn't stop them from slipping in the habitual 'estimated one million Uyghurs' though.
It looks like you missed this too:
"Torture and other ill-treatment
A decade after dozens of detainees were held in a CIA-operated secret detention programme – authorized from 2001 to 2009 – during which systematic human rights violations were committed, including enforced disappearance, torture and other ill-treatment, no person suspected of criminal responsibility had been brought to justice for these crimes. The limited investigations conducted into those crimes were closed without charges being brought against anyone."
Or this from Brown University (links I've presented you with in the past) :
The War on Terror has involved major human rights and civil liberties violations, including detention without trial, torture, expanded US government surveillance, and racial profiling.
The US transported terror suspects to dozens of countries with more lax human rights standards, where they have faced torture or mistreatment.
The US government is conducting counterterror activities in 85 countries, vastly expanding this war across the globe.
The US 'war on terror' has cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Should Apple pull out of the US in protest? Let's get real.
You are not interested in the nuances and complexities in these situations. You are not even interested in a balanced factual view (even if that is only partial) of what is going on. You are simply anti-China. You are pushing an agenda and lost all credibility long ago as a result.
How long will it be before you bring the South China Seas into this? That is the pattern you usually follow.
This thread is about the Apple supply chain. The article touches on the political side of things but it isn't a political article. Out of hundreds of Chinese suppliers, it mentions just seven that are alleged to have used forced labour. That's right, alleged.
My original comment simply pointed out a reality. That there is very little factual information available and most of what is said and reported on tends to come from dubious sources on both sides or use wild estimates. That is unquestionable.
If real verifiable information were available then little would be 'alleged, rumoured, estimated' etc and governments and world organisations would have clear options open to them.
Currently they don't and, perhaps sadly, it might not change much either because while all this has been going on, 'business' has been the real driver. For the US with the trade war and for the EU with a seven year negotiation of a China trade deal.
That business is directly linked to the battle for technological supremacy.
For all the banner waving, human rights will be way down the list.
LOL.
It doesn't matter what you or I actually think, but its interesting that you are so supportive of China today, given the anniversary of Tiananmen Square tomorrow.
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
There you go again: 'could'. They didn't actually do much at all. I could read it again and again but it won't change the facts as they stand.
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
Boy, you sure are trying to bury China's human rights violations. Will the PRC give you social credits that you can cash out in Spain?
My comments, and others as well on human rights, is certainly pertinent to the topic of the thread, which is Apple's increasing reliance on Chinese suppliers.
The easiest way to bury what you are alleging against me would be to simply not reply to you.
I actually pointed some things out from a factual perspective based on my own past attempts to find real information.
I am not pro-China/US or anti-China/US. I simply prefer to be given factual information.
There isn't a lot of that available. You just linked to Amnesty, for example, which specifically states that it is impossible to know what is really going on with many situations. That didn't stop them from slipping in the habitual 'estimated one million Uyghurs' though.
It looks like you missed this too:
"Torture and other ill-treatment
A decade after dozens of detainees were held in a CIA-operated secret detention programme – authorized from 2001 to 2009 – during which systematic human rights violations were committed, including enforced disappearance, torture and other ill-treatment, no person suspected of criminal responsibility had been brought to justice for these crimes. The limited investigations conducted into those crimes were closed without charges being brought against anyone."
Or this from Brown University (links I've presented you with in the past) :
The War on Terror has involved major human rights and civil liberties violations, including detention without trial, torture, expanded US government surveillance, and racial profiling.
The US transported terror suspects to dozens of countries with more lax human rights standards, where they have faced torture or mistreatment.
The US government is conducting counterterror activities in 85 countries, vastly expanding this war across the globe.
The US 'war on terror' has cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Should Apple pull out of the US in protest? Let's get real.
You are not interested in the nuances and complexities in these situations. You are not even interested in a balanced factual view (even if that is only partial) of what is going on. You are simply anti-China. You are pushing an agenda and lost all credibility long ago as a result.
How long will it be before you bring the South China Seas into this? That is the pattern you usually follow.
This thread is about the Apple supply chain. The article touches on the political side of things but it isn't a political article. Out of hundreds of Chinese suppliers, it mentions just seven that are alleged to have used forced labour. That's right, alleged.
My original comment simply pointed out a reality. That there is very little factual information available and most of what is said and reported on tends to come from dubious sources on both sides or use wild estimates. That is unquestionable.
If real verifiable information were available then little would be 'alleged, rumoured, estimated' etc and governments and world organisations would have clear options open to them.
Currently they don't and, perhaps sadly, it might not change much either because while all this has been going on, 'business' has been the real driver. For the US with the trade war and for the EU with a seven year negotiation of a China trade deal.
That business is directly linked to the battle for technological supremacy.
For all the banner waving, human rights will be way down the list.
A series of hearings begins in London on Friday aiming to gather evidence on whether the Chinese government's alleged human rights abuses in the Xinjiang region constitute a genocide.
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
There you go again: 'could'. They didn't actually do much at all. I could read it again and again but it won't change the facts as they stand.
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
Boy, you sure are trying to bury China's human rights violations. Will the PRC give you social credits that you can cash out in Spain?
My comments, and others as well on human rights, is certainly pertinent to the topic of the thread, which is Apple's increasing reliance on Chinese suppliers.
The easiest way to bury what you are alleging against me would be to simply not reply to you.
I actually pointed some things out from a factual perspective based on my own past attempts to find real information.
I am not pro-China/US or anti-China/US. I simply prefer to be given factual information.
There isn't a lot of that available. You just linked to Amnesty, for example, which specifically states that it is impossible to know what is really going on with many situations. That didn't stop them from slipping in the habitual 'estimated one million Uyghurs' though.
It looks like you missed this too:
"Torture and other ill-treatment
A decade after dozens of detainees were held in a CIA-operated secret detention programme – authorized from 2001 to 2009 – during which systematic human rights violations were committed, including enforced disappearance, torture and other ill-treatment, no person suspected of criminal responsibility had been brought to justice for these crimes. The limited investigations conducted into those crimes were closed without charges being brought against anyone."
Or this from Brown University (links I've presented you with in the past) :
The War on Terror has involved major human rights and civil liberties violations, including detention without trial, torture, expanded US government surveillance, and racial profiling.
The US transported terror suspects to dozens of countries with more lax human rights standards, where they have faced torture or mistreatment.
The US government is conducting counterterror activities in 85 countries, vastly expanding this war across the globe.
The US 'war on terror' has cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Should Apple pull out of the US in protest? Let's get real.
You are not interested in the nuances and complexities in these situations. You are not even interested in a balanced factual view (even if that is only partial) of what is going on. You are simply anti-China. You are pushing an agenda and lost all credibility long ago as a result.
How long will it be before you bring the South China Seas into this? That is the pattern you usually follow.
This thread is about the Apple supply chain. The article touches on the political side of things but it isn't a political article. Out of hundreds of Chinese suppliers, it mentions just seven that are alleged to have used forced labour. That's right, alleged.
My original comment simply pointed out a reality. That there is very little factual information available and most of what is said and reported on tends to come from dubious sources on both sides or use wild estimates. That is unquestionable.
If real verifiable information were available then little would be 'alleged, rumoured, estimated' etc and governments and world organisations would have clear options open to them.
Currently they don't and, perhaps sadly, it might not change much either because while all this has been going on, 'business' has been the real driver. For the US with the trade war and for the EU with a seven year negotiation of a China trade deal.
That business is directly linked to the battle for technological supremacy.
For all the banner waving, human rights will be way down the list.
A series of hearings begins in London on Friday aiming to gather evidence on whether the Chinese government's alleged human rights abuses in the Xinjiang region constitute a genocide.
The title even makes it clear at least: 'allegations' .
Allegations do not constitute evidence.
Then there is this:
"Dolkun Isa, the president of the World Uyghur Congress, will also give evidence. Mr Isa told the BBC that the privately-organised hearings were the only option available for investigating China's actions in Xinjiang because the two international courts which might otherwise take up a case had no plans to do so."
According to your posturing, the genocide and other human rights violations are virtually unquestionable facts with millions of people affected, yet both international courts have no plans to do anything about it. Why do you think that is? Are you suggesting they are wilfully ignoring the 'evidence'? Note that I didn't say 'alleged' here because that doesn't anywhere to fit into your thinking.
Could it be that your anti-China rhetoric simply gets the better of you?
I don't understand why, time and time again, you posts links which actually don't support what you are claiming.
I've been clear. I tried to get some information that was more or less independent and came up blank. I'm not alone in coming up blank. In fact, when you actually follow the breadcrumbs back to the sources of the claims they are often the same four or five. Again and again. The general (western) media simply picks up on it.
My stance of actually trying to get to the bottom of the numbers must seem outlandish to you.
Why bother with that when everyone already knows the truth? Haven't we been down that road a few times already?
Anyway. I'll sign off from this as I've made my point. You've made yours.
In the meantime, the US will still try to drum up more business with China and Apple will continue (at least for the time being) to depend on Chinese suppliers.
If the allegations of forced labour prove true, I'm sure Apple will take the necessary action.
I give Apple a lot of slack in its situation with China. Things aren't as simple or black and white as some people seem to think.
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
You must be confusing GeorgeBMac with Avon B7 on this topic. I just quoted the relevant portion of your post - the above sentences apply to GeorgeBMac's stance on this topic, definitely not Avon B7's. Avon has ALWAYS acknowledged that China has committed "Human Rights violations". He never denied them. But being a neutral, he asked few more VALID questions, of course against your country (USA). You have mostly skirted answering those questions, because they are uncomfortable ones to answer from US standpoint. You can go back and read those posts from Avon if you want to understand Avon's stance on this topic.
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
There you go again: 'could'. They didn't actually do much at all. I could read it again and again but it won't change the facts as they stand.
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
Boy, you sure are trying to bury China's human rights violations. Will the PRC give you social credits that you can cash out in Spain?
My comments, and others as well on human rights, is certainly pertinent to the topic of the thread, which is Apple's increasing reliance on Chinese suppliers.
The easiest way to bury what you are alleging against me would be to simply not reply to you.
I actually pointed some things out from a factual perspective based on my own past attempts to find real information.
I am not pro-China/US or anti-China/US. I simply prefer to be given factual information.
There isn't a lot of that available. You just linked to Amnesty, for example, which specifically states that it is impossible to know what is really going on with many situations. That didn't stop them from slipping in the habitual 'estimated one million Uyghurs' though.
It looks like you missed this too:
"Torture and other ill-treatment
A decade after dozens of detainees were held in a CIA-operated secret detention programme – authorized from 2001 to 2009 – during which systematic human rights violations were committed, including enforced disappearance, torture and other ill-treatment, no person suspected of criminal responsibility had been brought to justice for these crimes. The limited investigations conducted into those crimes were closed without charges being brought against anyone."
Or this from Brown University (links I've presented you with in the past) :
The War on Terror has involved major human rights and civil liberties violations, including detention without trial, torture, expanded US government surveillance, and racial profiling.
The US transported terror suspects to dozens of countries with more lax human rights standards, where they have faced torture or mistreatment.
The US government is conducting counterterror activities in 85 countries, vastly expanding this war across the globe.
The US 'war on terror' has cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Should Apple pull out of the US in protest? Let's get real.
You are not interested in the nuances and complexities in these situations. You are not even interested in a balanced factual view (even if that is only partial) of what is going on. You are simply anti-China. You are pushing an agenda and lost all credibility long ago as a result.
How long will it be before you bring the South China Seas into this? That is the pattern you usually follow.
This thread is about the Apple supply chain. The article touches on the political side of things but it isn't a political article. Out of hundreds of Chinese suppliers, it mentions just seven that are alleged to have used forced labour. That's right, alleged.
My original comment simply pointed out a reality. That there is very little factual information available and most of what is said and reported on tends to come from dubious sources on both sides or use wild estimates. That is unquestionable.
If real verifiable information were available then little would be 'alleged, rumoured, estimated' etc and governments and world organisations would have clear options open to them.
Currently they don't and, perhaps sadly, it might not change much either because while all this has been going on, 'business' has been the real driver. For the US with the trade war and for the EU with a seven year negotiation of a China trade deal.
That business is directly linked to the battle for technological supremacy.
For all the banner waving, human rights will be way down the list.
A series of hearings begins in London on Friday aiming to gather evidence on whether the Chinese government's alleged human rights abuses in the Xinjiang region constitute a genocide.
The title even makes it clear at least: 'allegations' .
Allegations do not constitute evidence.
Then there is this:
"Dolkun Isa, the president of the World Uyghur Congress, will also give evidence. Mr Isa told the BBC that the privately-organised hearings were the only option available for investigating China's actions in Xinjiang because the two international courts which might otherwise take up a case had no plans to do so."
According to your posturing, the genocide and other human rights violations are virtually unquestionable facts with millions of people affected, yet both international courts have no plans to do anything about it. Why do you think that is? Are you suggesting they are wilfully ignoring the 'evidence'? Note that I didn't say 'alleged' here because that doesn't anywhere to fit into your thinking.
Could it be that your anti-China rhetoric simply gets the better of you?
I don't understand why, time and time again, you posts links which actually don't support what you are claiming.
I've been clear. I tried to get some information that was more or less independent and came up blank. I'm not alone in coming up blank. In fact, when you actually follow the breadcrumbs back to the sources of the claims they are often the same four or five. Again and again. The general (western) media simply picks up on it.
My stance of actually trying to get to the bottom of the numbers must seem outlandish to you.
Why bother with that when everyone already knows the truth? Haven't we been down that road a few times already?
Anyway. I'll sign off from this as I've made my point. You've made yours.
In the meantime, the US will still try to drum up more business with China and Apple will continue (at least for the time being) to depend on Chinese suppliers.
If the allegations of forced labour prove true, I'm sure Apple will take the necessary action.
I give Apple a lot of slack in its situation with China. Things aren't as simple or black and white as some people seem to think.
Evidence keeps building, in spite of the PRC's attempt to limit damage with its influence operations;
Given that the PRC will never allow an investigation, the evidence that has been, and is being, collected paints a picture that is pretty complete; that the PRC is involved in massive human rights violations.
Your posts continue to attempt to distract from that evidence, but in the end, the weight of evidence is going to be a problem for the PRC.
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
There you go again: 'could'. They didn't actually do much at all. I could read it again and again but it won't change the facts as they stand.
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
Boy, you sure are trying to bury China's human rights violations. Will the PRC give you social credits that you can cash out in Spain?
My comments, and others as well on human rights, is certainly pertinent to the topic of the thread, which is Apple's increasing reliance on Chinese suppliers.
The easiest way to bury what you are alleging against me would be to simply not reply to you.
I actually pointed some things out from a factual perspective based on my own past attempts to find real information.
I am not pro-China/US or anti-China/US. I simply prefer to be given factual information.
There isn't a lot of that available. You just linked to Amnesty, for example, which specifically states that it is impossible to know what is really going on with many situations. That didn't stop them from slipping in the habitual 'estimated one million Uyghurs' though.
It looks like you missed this too:
"Torture and other ill-treatment
A decade after dozens of detainees were held in a CIA-operated secret detention programme – authorized from 2001 to 2009 – during which systematic human rights violations were committed, including enforced disappearance, torture and other ill-treatment, no person suspected of criminal responsibility had been brought to justice for these crimes. The limited investigations conducted into those crimes were closed without charges being brought against anyone."
Or this from Brown University (links I've presented you with in the past) :
The War on Terror has involved major human rights and civil liberties violations, including detention without trial, torture, expanded US government surveillance, and racial profiling.
The US transported terror suspects to dozens of countries with more lax human rights standards, where they have faced torture or mistreatment.
The US government is conducting counterterror activities in 85 countries, vastly expanding this war across the globe.
The US 'war on terror' has cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Should Apple pull out of the US in protest? Let's get real.
You are not interested in the nuances and complexities in these situations. You are not even interested in a balanced factual view (even if that is only partial) of what is going on. You are simply anti-China. You are pushing an agenda and lost all credibility long ago as a result.
How long will it be before you bring the South China Seas into this? That is the pattern you usually follow.
This thread is about the Apple supply chain. The article touches on the political side of things but it isn't a political article. Out of hundreds of Chinese suppliers, it mentions just seven that are alleged to have used forced labour. That's right, alleged.
My original comment simply pointed out a reality. That there is very little factual information available and most of what is said and reported on tends to come from dubious sources on both sides or use wild estimates. That is unquestionable.
If real verifiable information were available then little would be 'alleged, rumoured, estimated' etc and governments and world organisations would have clear options open to them.
Currently they don't and, perhaps sadly, it might not change much either because while all this has been going on, 'business' has been the real driver. For the US with the trade war and for the EU with a seven year negotiation of a China trade deal.
That business is directly linked to the battle for technological supremacy.
For all the banner waving, human rights will be way down the list.
A series of hearings begins in London on Friday aiming to gather evidence on whether the Chinese government's alleged human rights abuses in the Xinjiang region constitute a genocide.
The title even makes it clear at least: 'allegations' .
Allegations do not constitute evidence.
Then there is this:
"Dolkun Isa, the president of the World Uyghur Congress, will also give evidence. Mr Isa told the BBC that the privately-organised hearings were the only option available for investigating China's actions in Xinjiang because the two international courts which might otherwise take up a case had no plans to do so."
According to your posturing, the genocide and other human rights violations are virtually unquestionable facts with millions of people affected, yet both international courts have no plans to do anything about it. Why do you think that is? Are you suggesting they are wilfully ignoring the 'evidence'? Note that I didn't say 'alleged' here because that doesn't anywhere to fit into your thinking.
Could it be that your anti-China rhetoric simply gets the better of you?
I don't understand why, time and time again, you posts links which actually don't support what you are claiming.
I've been clear. I tried to get some information that was more or less independent and came up blank. I'm not alone in coming up blank. In fact, when you actually follow the breadcrumbs back to the sources of the claims they are often the same four or five. Again and again. The general (western) media simply picks up on it.
My stance of actually trying to get to the bottom of the numbers must seem outlandish to you.
Why bother with that when everyone already knows the truth? Haven't we been down that road a few times already?
Anyway. I'll sign off from this as I've made my point. You've made yours.
In the meantime, the US will still try to drum up more business with China and Apple will continue (at least for the time being) to depend on Chinese suppliers.
If the allegations of forced labour prove true, I'm sure Apple will take the necessary action.
I give Apple a lot of slack in its situation with China. Things aren't as simple or black and white as some people seem to think.
Evidence keeps building, in spite of the PRC's attempt to limit damage with its influence operations;
Given that the PRC will never allow an investigation, the evidence that has been, and is being, collected paints a picture that is pretty complete; that the PRC is involved in massive human rights violations.
Your posts continue to attempt to distract from that evidence, but in the end, the weight of evidence is going to be a problem for the PRC.
Human rights has two metric scale, one is western, the other is Chinese. You use western scale to measure human rights in China. LOL
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
There you go again: 'could'. They didn't actually do much at all. I could read it again and again but it won't change the facts as they stand.
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
Boy, you sure are trying to bury China's human rights violations. Will the PRC give you social credits that you can cash out in Spain?
My comments, and others as well on human rights, is certainly pertinent to the topic of the thread, which is Apple's increasing reliance on Chinese suppliers.
The easiest way to bury what you are alleging against me would be to simply not reply to you.
I actually pointed some things out from a factual perspective based on my own past attempts to find real information.
I am not pro-China/US or anti-China/US. I simply prefer to be given factual information.
There isn't a lot of that available. You just linked to Amnesty, for example, which specifically states that it is impossible to know what is really going on with many situations. That didn't stop them from slipping in the habitual 'estimated one million Uyghurs' though.
It looks like you missed this too:
"Torture and other ill-treatment
A decade after dozens of detainees were held in a CIA-operated secret detention programme – authorized from 2001 to 2009 – during which systematic human rights violations were committed, including enforced disappearance, torture and other ill-treatment, no person suspected of criminal responsibility had been brought to justice for these crimes. The limited investigations conducted into those crimes were closed without charges being brought against anyone."
Or this from Brown University (links I've presented you with in the past) :
The War on Terror has involved major human rights and civil liberties violations, including detention without trial, torture, expanded US government surveillance, and racial profiling.
The US transported terror suspects to dozens of countries with more lax human rights standards, where they have faced torture or mistreatment.
The US government is conducting counterterror activities in 85 countries, vastly expanding this war across the globe.
The US 'war on terror' has cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Should Apple pull out of the US in protest? Let's get real.
You are not interested in the nuances and complexities in these situations. You are not even interested in a balanced factual view (even if that is only partial) of what is going on. You are simply anti-China. You are pushing an agenda and lost all credibility long ago as a result.
How long will it be before you bring the South China Seas into this? That is the pattern you usually follow.
This thread is about the Apple supply chain. The article touches on the political side of things but it isn't a political article. Out of hundreds of Chinese suppliers, it mentions just seven that are alleged to have used forced labour. That's right, alleged.
My original comment simply pointed out a reality. That there is very little factual information available and most of what is said and reported on tends to come from dubious sources on both sides or use wild estimates. That is unquestionable.
If real verifiable information were available then little would be 'alleged, rumoured, estimated' etc and governments and world organisations would have clear options open to them.
Currently they don't and, perhaps sadly, it might not change much either because while all this has been going on, 'business' has been the real driver. For the US with the trade war and for the EU with a seven year negotiation of a China trade deal.
That business is directly linked to the battle for technological supremacy.
For all the banner waving, human rights will be way down the list.
A series of hearings begins in London on Friday aiming to gather evidence on whether the Chinese government's alleged human rights abuses in the Xinjiang region constitute a genocide.
The title even makes it clear at least: 'allegations' .
Allegations do not constitute evidence.
Then there is this:
"Dolkun Isa, the president of the World Uyghur Congress, will also give evidence. Mr Isa told the BBC that the privately-organised hearings were the only option available for investigating China's actions in Xinjiang because the two international courts which might otherwise take up a case had no plans to do so."
According to your posturing, the genocide and other human rights violations are virtually unquestionable facts with millions of people affected, yet both international courts have no plans to do anything about it. Why do you think that is? Are you suggesting they are wilfully ignoring the 'evidence'? Note that I didn't say 'alleged' here because that doesn't anywhere to fit into your thinking.
Could it be that your anti-China rhetoric simply gets the better of you?
I don't understand why, time and time again, you posts links which actually don't support what you are claiming.
I've been clear. I tried to get some information that was more or less independent and came up blank. I'm not alone in coming up blank. In fact, when you actually follow the breadcrumbs back to the sources of the claims they are often the same four or five. Again and again. The general (western) media simply picks up on it.
My stance of actually trying to get to the bottom of the numbers must seem outlandish to you.
Why bother with that when everyone already knows the truth? Haven't we been down that road a few times already?
Anyway. I'll sign off from this as I've made my point. You've made yours.
In the meantime, the US will still try to drum up more business with China and Apple will continue (at least for the time being) to depend on Chinese suppliers.
If the allegations of forced labour prove true, I'm sure Apple will take the necessary action.
I give Apple a lot of slack in its situation with China. Things aren't as simple or black and white as some people seem to think.
Evidence keeps building, in spite of the PRC's attempt to limit damage with its influence operations;
Given that the PRC will never allow an investigation, the evidence that has been, and is being, collected paints a picture that is pretty complete; that the PRC is involved in massive human rights violations.
Your posts continue to attempt to distract from that evidence, but in the end, the weight of evidence is going to be a problem for the PRC.
Human rights has two metric scale, one is western, the other is Chinese. You use western scale to measure human rights in China. LOL
China is a signatory on the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, so there is only one "standard".
"Additionally, there have been concerns about human rights abuses in China,"
Here we go again. The same disinformation campaign used against Iraq ( "we got proof including eyeswittness of Iraqi WMD"), Syria, , Libya etc. First the disinformation campaign to demonize the country, then USA supplied 'liberation' groups (often terrorists organizations) , and the disintegration of the region.
At least hundreds of thousands dead in Iraq , millions of refugees in Syria etc and the playbook is used again.
(In various resolutions practically all the countries condemning China are Western except Japan which has a frayed history with China and which was arm twisted by USA as member of the Quad defense collective, and some USA influenced islands like the Marshall islands.
At least 54 countries have given SUPPORT to China over Xinjiang including the majority of MUSLIM countries including Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan, Yemen, Palestine, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Morocco, South Sudan, etc. Except for Japan and the aforementioned USA influenced islands not one ASIAN country has condemned China over Xinjiang .
Few people believe, after events in Palestines etc, the west cares about muslims in Xinjiang except as a China containment policy. )
Containment and disruption policy ? Don't believe me? Go watch this video where USA official describe years ago the USA strategic objective in Xinjiang.
Here come the pro-China astroturfers. Yeah no, China's abysmal human rights record is conspiracy theory, it's fact. Even the UN has come to this conclusion:
...I spent a couple weeks studying in China, both inland and with Uyghurs in Xinjiang. While that doesn't make me an expert, it did give me more firsthand accounts than most people arguing online will ever get. The Chinese people are great, the CCP is not. Pretending it's just a vast international conspiracy against China immediately identifies you.
Common sense needs to be applied here.
First link. What conclusion did the UN reach?
That was three years ago. Nothing since then? which seems very strange. As is the fact that the '1 million' number' seems to balloon to '2 million' at the drop of a hat depending on the news source.
I also tried to dig into this and came up with nothing of note. Just extreme swings depending on who the source was.
If anything, the piece that most caught my attention was from the Grey Zone (hardly an unbiased source IMO) which dug into who was 'pulling the strings' in most of the groups critical of China. That angle could be verified to a degree (there have been open letters from Nobel Laureates criticising HRW for example). Then, when you look below the surface you realise that much of the news articles on the subject from the mainstream press are actually feeding off the claims of those groups and individuals and throwing words like 'suspected, rumoured, alleged' into the soup to cover themselves.
The highest number I could find that was an estimate in itself was 200,000. Beyond that, nothing.
I think it's impossible to believe any of the claims. From whichever side they come from.
"The European Parliament halted progress Thursday on a landmark commercial agreement with China, citing the “totalitarian threat” from Beijing because of its record on human rights and its sanctions against Europeans who have been critical of the Chinese government.
By an overwhelming majority, members of Parliament passed a resolution refusing to ratify the so-called Comprehensive Agreement on Investment until China lifts sanctions on prominent European critics of Beijing. The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong.
“The human rights situation in China is at its worst since the Tiananmen Square massacre,” the resolution said, accusing China of detaining more than one million people, mostly Muslim Uyghursin Xinjiang province, a charge the Chinese government has denied.
The sanctions against members of the European Parliament who have been critical of Beijing, as well as several scholars and research organizations, “constitute an attack against the European Union and its Parliament as a whole, the heart of European democracy and values, as well as an attack against freedom of research,” the resolution said."
You seem unable to admit that China is violating human rights, committing genocide (see UN human rights charter that the PRC is a signatory on), nor that China is a "totalitarian threat".
I haven't been able to figure out why the PRC has you in its back pocket, yet here you are, arguing against an ever increasing mountain of evidence.
Looks like they disagreed so much that they didn't do much at all. Literally.
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
Read again, the statement that I linked.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
There you go again: 'could'. They didn't actually do much at all. I could read it again and again but it won't change the facts as they stand.
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
Boy, you sure are trying to bury China's human rights violations. Will the PRC give you social credits that you can cash out in Spain?
My comments, and others as well on human rights, is certainly pertinent to the topic of the thread, which is Apple's increasing reliance on Chinese suppliers.
The easiest way to bury what you are alleging against me would be to simply not reply to you.
I actually pointed some things out from a factual perspective based on my own past attempts to find real information.
I am not pro-China/US or anti-China/US. I simply prefer to be given factual information.
There isn't a lot of that available. You just linked to Amnesty, for example, which specifically states that it is impossible to know what is really going on with many situations. That didn't stop them from slipping in the habitual 'estimated one million Uyghurs' though.
It looks like you missed this too:
"Torture and other ill-treatment
A decade after dozens of detainees were held in a CIA-operated secret detention programme – authorized from 2001 to 2009 – during which systematic human rights violations were committed, including enforced disappearance, torture and other ill-treatment, no person suspected of criminal responsibility had been brought to justice for these crimes. The limited investigations conducted into those crimes were closed without charges being brought against anyone."
Or this from Brown University (links I've presented you with in the past) :
The War on Terror has involved major human rights and civil liberties violations, including detention without trial, torture, expanded US government surveillance, and racial profiling.
The US transported terror suspects to dozens of countries with more lax human rights standards, where they have faced torture or mistreatment.
The US government is conducting counterterror activities in 85 countries, vastly expanding this war across the globe.
The US 'war on terror' has cost hundreds of thousands of civilian lives.
Should Apple pull out of the US in protest? Let's get real.
You are not interested in the nuances and complexities in these situations. You are not even interested in a balanced factual view (even if that is only partial) of what is going on. You are simply anti-China. You are pushing an agenda and lost all credibility long ago as a result.
How long will it be before you bring the South China Seas into this? That is the pattern you usually follow.
This thread is about the Apple supply chain. The article touches on the political side of things but it isn't a political article. Out of hundreds of Chinese suppliers, it mentions just seven that are alleged to have used forced labour. That's right, alleged.
My original comment simply pointed out a reality. That there is very little factual information available and most of what is said and reported on tends to come from dubious sources on both sides or use wild estimates. That is unquestionable.
If real verifiable information were available then little would be 'alleged, rumoured, estimated' etc and governments and world organisations would have clear options open to them.
Currently they don't and, perhaps sadly, it might not change much either because while all this has been going on, 'business' has been the real driver. For the US with the trade war and for the EU with a seven year negotiation of a China trade deal.
That business is directly linked to the battle for technological supremacy.
For all the banner waving, human rights will be way down the list.
A series of hearings begins in London on Friday aiming to gather evidence on whether the Chinese government's alleged human rights abuses in the Xinjiang region constitute a genocide.
The title even makes it clear at least: 'allegations' .
Allegations do not constitute evidence.
Then there is this:
"Dolkun Isa, the president of the World Uyghur Congress, will also give evidence. Mr Isa told the BBC that the privately-organised hearings were the only option available for investigating China's actions in Xinjiang because the two international courts which might otherwise take up a case had no plans to do so."
According to your posturing, the genocide and other human rights violations are virtually unquestionable facts with millions of people affected, yet both international courts have no plans to do anything about it. Why do you think that is? Are you suggesting they are wilfully ignoring the 'evidence'? Note that I didn't say 'alleged' here because that doesn't anywhere to fit into your thinking.
Could it be that your anti-China rhetoric simply gets the better of you?
I don't understand why, time and time again, you posts links which actually don't support what you are claiming.
I've been clear. I tried to get some information that was more or less independent and came up blank. I'm not alone in coming up blank. In fact, when you actually follow the breadcrumbs back to the sources of the claims they are often the same four or five. Again and again. The general (western) media simply picks up on it.
My stance of actually trying to get to the bottom of the numbers must seem outlandish to you.
Why bother with that when everyone already knows the truth? Haven't we been down that road a few times already?
Anyway. I'll sign off from this as I've made my point. You've made yours.
In the meantime, the US will still try to drum up more business with China and Apple will continue (at least for the time being) to depend on Chinese suppliers.
If the allegations of forced labour prove true, I'm sure Apple will take the necessary action.
I give Apple a lot of slack in its situation with China. Things aren't as simple or black and white as some people seem to think.
Evidence keeps building, in spite of the PRC's attempt to limit damage with its influence operations;
Given that the PRC will never allow an investigation, the evidence that has been, and is being, collected paints a picture that is pretty complete; that the PRC is involved in massive human rights violations.
Your posts continue to attempt to distract from that evidence, but in the end, the weight of evidence is going to be a problem for the PRC.
Human rights has two metric scale, one is western, the other is Chinese. You use western scale to measure human rights in China. LOL
China is a signatory on the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, so there is only one "standard".
Comments
They suspended progress on the EU-China trade deal (which was ongoing through the whole Uyghur issue btw) and 'sanctioned' just four Chinese officials. You read that right. Four Chinese officials.
Of course, the deal is far from dead.
To be able to go any further, real evidence would have to be put on the table. That seems very scarce at the moment in spite of your claims.
The last paragraph isn't even about the Uyghurs at all but the tot-for-tat response from the Chinese against the EU. Why even bother putting that in there?
Yours is a perfect example of why all the blustering claims should be taken with extreme caution. You are pushing a case born from your own at-China bias.
"The members of Parliament also warned that they could refuse to endorse the agreement because of China’s treatment of Muslim minorities and its suppression of democracy in Hong Kong."
That seems like a warning to the PRC, not a negotiating strategy for trade.
As for evidence, which isn't at all scarce, as you have claimed, I'll leave that to the members of the EU, since you seem unable to be convinced, one way or the other.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/26/europe/european-union-china-trade-intl-cmd/index.html
If anything like real evidence were to appear, that 'could' would automatically be converted into a 'would' right?
Think about it.
The EU negotiated with China the whole time this was going on. Xi was also welcomed into the EU. The 'sanctions' by the EU were not against China. The were against just four individuals. Trump praised Xi. Apple still does huge amounts of business with China.
The US-China trade war was started to bring in yet more trade with China.
Where were human rights and genocide claims while all this 'business' was going on? Clearly not front and foremost.
To bring them front and foremost, real quantifiable evidence would help.
In the meantime, some people are making wild claims and trying to pass them off as fact which doesn't really help either.
Why not try to get back to the topic of the thread now?
My comments, and others as well on human rights, is certainly pertinent to the topic of the thread, which is Apple's increasing reliance on Chinese suppliers.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/13/china-in-darkest-period-for-human-rights-since-tiananmen-says-rights-group
Of course, you will state emphatically that Human Rights Watch isn't a reliable source, so here's another;
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/china/report-china/
And of course, a link specifically about companies with supply chains in China, and how they resist discussion of human rights violations.
https://www.triplepundit.com/story/2021/human-rights-abuses-uyghurs/719946
The easiest way to bury what you are alleging against me would be to simply not reply to you.
I actually pointed some things out from a factual perspective based on my own past attempts to find real information.
I am not pro-China/US or anti-China/US. I simply prefer to be given factual information.
There isn't a lot of that available. You just linked to Amnesty, for example, which specifically states that it is impossible to know what is really going on with many situations. That didn't stop them from slipping in the habitual 'estimated one million Uyghurs' though.
It looks like you missed this too:
"Torture and other ill-treatment
A decade after dozens of detainees were held in a CIA-operated secret detention programme – authorized from 2001 to 2009 – during which systematic human rights violations were committed, including enforced disappearance, torture and other ill-treatment, no person suspected of criminal responsibility had been brought to justice for these crimes. The limited investigations conducted into those crimes were closed without charges being brought against anyone."
Or this from Brown University (links I've presented you with in the past) :
The US government is conducting counterterror activities in 85 countries, vastly expanding this war across the globe.
Should Apple pull out of the US in protest? Let's get real.
You are not interested in the nuances and complexities in these situations. You are not even interested in a balanced factual view (even if that is only partial) of what is going on. You are simply anti-China. You are pushing an agenda and lost all credibility long ago as a result.
How long will it be before you bring the South China Seas into this? That is the pattern you usually follow.
This thread is about the Apple supply chain. The article touches on the political side of things but it isn't a political article. Out of hundreds of Chinese suppliers, it mentions just seven that are alleged to have used forced labour. That's right, alleged.
My original comment simply pointed out a reality. That there is very little factual information available and most of what is said and reported on tends to come from dubious sources on both sides or use wild estimates. That is unquestionable.
If real verifiable information were available then little would be 'alleged, rumoured, estimated' etc and governments and world organisations would have clear options open to them.
Currently they don't and, perhaps sadly, it might not change much either because while all this has been going on, 'business' has been the real driver. For the US with the trade war and for the EU with a seven year negotiation of a China trade deal.
That business is directly linked to the battle for technological supremacy.
For all the banner waving, human rights will be way down the list.
It doesn't matter what you or I actually think, but its interesting that you are so supportive of China today, given the anniversary of Tiananmen Square tomorrow.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57318564
Gathering even more evidence.
It changes nothing about what I said.
The title even makes it clear at least: 'allegations' .
Allegations do not constitute evidence.
Then there is this:
"Dolkun Isa, the president of the World Uyghur Congress, will also give evidence. Mr Isa told the BBC that the privately-organised hearings were the only option available for investigating China's actions in Xinjiang because the two international courts which might otherwise take up a case had no plans to do so."
According to your posturing, the genocide and other human rights violations are virtually unquestionable facts with millions of people affected, yet both international courts have no plans to do anything about it. Why do you think that is? Are you suggesting they are wilfully ignoring the 'evidence'? Note that I didn't say 'alleged' here because that doesn't anywhere to fit into your thinking.
Could it be that your anti-China rhetoric simply gets the better of you?
I don't understand why, time and time again, you posts links which actually don't support what you are claiming.
I've been clear. I tried to get some information that was more or less independent and came up blank. I'm not alone in coming up blank. In fact, when you actually follow the breadcrumbs back to the sources of the claims they are often the same four or five. Again and again. The general (western) media simply picks up on it.
My stance of actually trying to get to the bottom of the numbers must seem outlandish to you.
Why bother with that when everyone already knows the truth? Haven't we been down that road a few times already?
Anyway. I'll sign off from this as I've made my point. You've made yours.
In the meantime, the US will still try to drum up more business with China and Apple will continue (at least for the time being) to depend on Chinese suppliers.
If the allegations of forced labour prove true, I'm sure Apple will take the necessary action.
I give Apple a lot of slack in its situation with China. Things aren't as simple or black and white as some people seem to think.
Glad you were able to see what I have tried to put over (whether you agree with it or not).
I believe counterpoints are necessary to bring balance into things although I usually try to steer clear of politics. It's not my forte.
The problem is that certain elements of technology have become tightly interwoven with politics over the last few years.
Given that the PRC will never allow an investigation, the evidence that has been, and is being, collected paints a picture that is pretty complete; that the PRC is involved in massive human rights violations.
Your posts continue to attempt to distract from that evidence, but in the end, the weight of evidence is going to be a problem for the PRC.
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights