Apple faces higher taxes after G7 agree to global tax rate changes

124»

Comments

  • Reply 61 of 77
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,889member
    georgie01 said:
    seankill said:
    Can't believe some of you are complaining about a minimum of 15% tax? Seems almost low for one of the most profitable companies in the world.
    It’s a shame we’ve gotten to the point where 15% tax is seen by anyone as ‘low’. Low relatively, perhaps, but a government that needs even 15% is already failing with bloat and inefficiency. 

    It might be if we weren't spending 3/4's of Trillion each year on so called "Defense" (even though the last time we were invaded was what?   200 years ago?)
    baconstang
  • Reply 62 of 77
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,889member
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    crowley said:
    I wonder how many of those that insisted "Apple never did anything wrong" and that "politicians should focus on closing loopholes rather than going after Apple" are going to be singing the same tune now that politicians have worked together to close loopholes.
    Wonder no more. 

    I’ve always said that the way to fix this was to close the loopholes, rather than going after Apple.  They’ve closed the loopholes. 

    Unfortunately, you got it into your head that the problem was going after Apple. 

    Nope.

    The problem was going after JUST Apple when everyone is doing it. That’s why we said “fix the law”.  

    Now that they’ve fixed the law, the playing field has been levelled for everyone, especially the smaller outfits who can’t afford expensive tax barristers. 



    In truth the G7 coming to agreement is just a good start. There's a 140-country conference coming up in just a few months where we'll see how much influence this has on all the rest when it comes time to vote on the same worldwide proposal in front of them.

    I get the feeling that agreement may not be 100% voluntary.   Why would the Caribbean islands agree?   Their main industry is being a tax shelter.   They have little else to offer the world.

    It's my guess though that it will be large multinationals who will put the pressure on:   It sounds like they'll be paying the 15% anyway in each country in which they operate -- so they'll have little need to maintain a fake headquarters in some far away tax shelter country.   In Apple's case, if they're already paying England, Germany, France, Spain, etc... their 15% they'll have no need to maintain anything in Ireland.

    Those Caribbean and Central American countries will have to fall to back relying on money laundering and such.   Like the banksters recording their CDO's over there to keep them off of their books or Panama running fake corporations.
    edited June 6
  • Reply 63 of 77
    IreneWIreneW Posts: 225member
    larryjw said:
    elijahg said:
    crowley said:
    Maybe I will, maybe I won't.  But some people definitely won't, they'll go somewhere else, or put off that upgrade another year; 
    Which is exactly what I have done since Cook ballooned iPhone prices. I had a new iPhone every other year since the original, until the 6S. Since then I have only bought one: the X - and that was second hand. Cook's absurd pricing has caused them to lose a number of iPhone sales from a historically avid fan, and thus average revenue from me has nosedived in the latter 5 years compared to the 5 before. ASP is up, but that is meaningless. Many of my friends have switched away from iOS or are still rocking an ancient iPhone 6, and they all say it's down to the crazy prices.
    When I started my law practice back in the early '80s, I bought two printers. The fast dot-matrix printer cost me $1200. I needed a computer so purchased the Osbourne luggable computer for $1800, Z80 CPU with 64KB of memory and two floppy disks and 5" screen, all running under the CPM OS. My first large brief was 100 pages of Constitutional Law, printed on the second of my printers. The printer could print 10 characters a second max. It took 2 days to print the brief. I typed the brief on the Osbourne using the CPM equivalent of nroff and troff. 

    My first "smart" phone, circa 1995, was $1200 from Radio Shack, flip-phone from Verizon. I had no connection from my home. 

    When I was working my first job, circa 1970, at a UW-Madison lab, we needed a hard disk to run a real-time OS I had written for a PDP-8, which controlled lab equipment. It cost us $8000 for a 32K hard disk. Before that I had to write my software on a Classic Linc computer in the basement of the UW Hospital. Then dump the compiled code onto a paper-tape, walk the paper-tape back over to the lab and feed the paper-tape into the ASR-33 teletype and debug it, walking back and forth between the hospital and lab fixing coding errors. Of course, I had to work at night from 10p.m. to 6 a.m in the morning, because we were running experiments during the day. 

    You really have no idea how good you have it. 

    nadriel
  • Reply 64 of 77
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,842member
    crowley said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    crowley said:
    I wonder how many of those that insisted "Apple never did anything wrong" and that "politicians should focus on closing loopholes rather than going after Apple" are going to be singing the same tune now that politicians have worked together to close loopholes.
    Wonder no more. 

    I’ve always said that the way to fix this was to close the loopholes, rather than going after Apple.  They’ve closed the loopholes. 

    Unfortunately, you got it into your head that the problem was going after Apple. 

    Nope.

    The problem was going after JUST Apple when everyone is doing it. That’s why we said “fix the law”.  

    Now that they’ve fixed the law, the playing field has been levelled for everyone, especially the smaller outfits who can’t afford expensive tax barristers. 
    Care to point out where I “got it into (my) head that the problem was going after Apple”?

    Stop making stuff up please.
    My bad. I worded  What I should have said was:

    You seem to have got it into your head that our problem is going after Apple. The problem is going after JUST Apple. 

    As I said, my bad … because you don’t have a problem with anyone going after JUST Apple, whether it’s justified or not. 

    edited June 6 watto_cobra
  • Reply 65 of 77
    GeorgeBMac said:
    It might be if we weren't spending 3/4's of Trillion each year on so called "Defense" (even though the last time we were invaded was what?   200 years ago?)

    According to the CBO https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57170 for FY 2020
    • Discretionary spending is only about 24% or $1.6T of a total of budget of $6.6T. That includes defense spending.
    • Mandatory spending is 70% of the budget or $4.6T. Includes Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, COVID relief and a boatload of other social programs - many of which are not self funded like Social Security. 
    • Defense spending is about 11% of the overall budget at $711B. 
    • Defense spending as a % of GDP has actually declined since 2008. 

    We are currently running a $3.2T deficit. You can eliminate defense spending (and don’t forget it’s overall impact on jobs in the economy and tax revenues) and still be running a deficit. 

    Which means taxes would still go up to support programs. 

    edited June 6
  • Reply 66 of 77
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,288member
    Rayz2016 said:
    crowley said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    crowley said:
    I wonder how many of those that insisted "Apple never did anything wrong" and that "politicians should focus on closing loopholes rather than going after Apple" are going to be singing the same tune now that politicians have worked together to close loopholes.
    Wonder no more. 

    I’ve always said that the way to fix this was to close the loopholes, rather than going after Apple.  They’ve closed the loopholes. 

    Unfortunately, you got it into your head that the problem was going after Apple. 

    Nope.

    The problem was going after JUST Apple when everyone is doing it. That’s why we said “fix the law”.  

    Now that they’ve fixed the law, the playing field has been levelled for everyone, especially the smaller outfits who can’t afford expensive tax barristers. 
    Care to point out where I “got it into (my) head that the problem was going after Apple”?

    Stop making stuff up please.
    My bad. I worded  What I should have said was:

    You seem to have got it into your head that our problem is going after Apple. The problem is going after JUST Apple. 

    As I said, my bad … because you don’t have a problem with anyone going after JUST Apple, whether it’s justified or not. 
    Can’t make head nor tail of that. You should probably pay less regard to what’s in my head and what problems I have with other people’s problems because you’re not making much sense.
    nadrielelijahg
  • Reply 67 of 77
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,889member
    GeorgeBMac said:
    It might be if we weren't spending 3/4's of Trillion each year on so called "Defense" (even though the last time we were invaded was what?   200 years ago?)

    According to the CBO https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57170 for FY 2020
    • Discretionary spending is only about 24% or $1.6T of a total of budget of $6.6T. That includes defense spending.
    • Mandatory spending is 70% of the budget or $4.6T. Includes Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, COVID relief and a boatload of other social programs - many of which are not self funded like Social Security. 
    • Defense spending is about 11% of the overall budget at $711B. 
    • Defense spending as a % of GDP has actually declined since 2008. 

    We are currently running a $3.2T deficit. You can eliminate defense spending (and don’t forget it’s overall impact on jobs in the economy and tax revenues) and still be running a deficit. 

    Which means taxes would still go up to support programs. 


    How to lie with facts....
    ....  Yeh, so you compare it to a period when money is being poured into the economy to bring it back from its crash as well as throwing in some self funded programs.....

    3/4's of a Trillion year after year after year is still 3/4's of trillion year after year after year -- no matter how much you marginalize it.
    baconstangdanox
  • Reply 68 of 77
    Wow... a lot of childish posts! Even more than we commonly find.

    I won't hold my breath waiting people to act their age on the internet—or grow up at all. Here are my 2 cents:

    1. Apple management has a fiduciary duty to their shareholders to maximize profits. That includes avoiding taxes if (and when) possible. Only an uneducated child would see hypocrisy here. This is playing with big boy rules. Nothing more, nothing less.
    2. Every CFO from a big company worth their salt know that tax schemes like "double Irish with a Dutch sandwich" won't last forever. Given time even glacial moving (more like impacted colon) major legislative bodies would address this issue to level the playing field. Loopholes like those are always uncertainties in the long run, and are potentially legal quagmires (like it had become). Stability and predictability are great market boosters, and consumer electronics are no exception.

    So give us a break with comments like: "Apple should close shop on country A"; or "raise prices (as a punitive measure) on country B"; and finishing with "that'll show them!". Apple is a company managed by adults, not by Twitter trending hashtags.
    baconstangelijahgfastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 69 of 77
    danoxdanox Posts: 561member
    Biden. LOL

    You’d think our leaders would stand up for our corporations. But you’d think wrong I suppose. 


    Apple doesn’t need help they are winning, long Apple….
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 70 of 77
    bestkeptsecretbestkeptsecret Posts: 4,014member
    crowley said:
    I wonder how many of those that insisted "Apple never did anything wrong" and that "politicians should focus on closing loopholes rather than going after Apple" are going to be singing the same tune now that politicians have worked together to close loopholes.
    My guess is that they will sing the same tune now. Apple tries to pay all the taxes it legally should and will continue to do so even if the taxes are raised.
    Why do you think the people who insisted that Apple never did anything wrong and that politicians should focus on closing the loopholes would say otherwise now?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 71 of 77
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,288member
    crowley said:
    I wonder how many of those that insisted "Apple never did anything wrong" and that "politicians should focus on closing loopholes rather than going after Apple" are going to be singing the same tune now that politicians have worked together to close loopholes.
    My guess is that they will sing the same tune now. Apple tries to pay all the taxes it legally should and will continue to do so even if the taxes are raised.
    Why do you think the people who insisted that Apple never did anything wrong and that politicians should focus on closing the loopholes would say otherwise now?
    A hunch that many of those who blamed politicians for tax loopholes will also blame politicians for overtaxation, overreach, and over everything else.  And that they will always see Apple as the victim.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 72 of 77
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,477member
    KTR said:
    reroll said:
    Apple should close shop in all those money grabbing countries. That’ll teach them!
    Or raise their prices by %15 to cover their respective taxes

    That assumes that their taxable income is their entire gross sales income (it isn’t) and that they’re currently paying 0% (they’re not).
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 73 of 77
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,477member
    elijahg said:
    crowley said:
    Maybe I will, maybe I won't.  But some people definitely won't, they'll go somewhere else, or put off that upgrade another year; 
    Which is exactly what I have done since Cook ballooned iPhone prices. I had a new iPhone every other year since the original, until the 6S. Since then I have only bought one: the X - and that was second hand. Cook's absurd pricing has caused them to lose a number of iPhone sales from a historically avid fan, and thus average revenue from me has nosedived in the latter 5 years compared to the 5 before. ASP is up, but that is meaningless. Many of my friends have switched away from iOS or are still rocking an ancient iPhone 6, and they all say it's down to the crazy prices.
    elijahg said:
    lkrupp said:
    crowley said:
    Maybe I will, maybe I won't.  But some people definitely won't, they'll go somewhere else, or put off that upgrade another year; Apple aren't immune to price sensitivity.  Price rises will mean Apple loses sales, especially if competitors don't raise prices.

    So while Apple may raise prices, I'd be very surprised if they accommodate the complete tax increase, rather than absorbing some of it into a reduced markup.

    They're not that stupid.
    Apparently you and others here have been waiting for the ‘overpriced’ rebellion to take hold with people walking away with their wallets.  It hasn’t and there’s not much chance it ever will, especially after 45 years of overpriced Apple gear selling in droves.
    Well, "apparently" it has. iPhone sales are largely flat since 2016, excepting 2020 as that's an anomaly year with more tech purchases due to the pandemic. Also what do you think the arguably biggest reason 1990's Apple almost went bust if it wasn't prices? Macs were double the cost of equivalent spec PCs back then, which is nigh on where they are again now, albeit without the crap OS.
    You’re delusional. Even if sales are flat, the lack of growth there is hardly a problem if you look at how much fucking money they rake in quarter after quarter, despite your meaningless anecdotes about your friends and yourself. The low end new iPhones are barely more expensive than your 6s was factoring inflation, or you could always buy the previous year’s model for cheaper. 

    The biggest tech company in the world Apple is nothing like the almost dead Apple of the 90s, and it’s ridiculous on all levels to even suggest there’s a correlation there. 

    “Historically avid fan” who constantly trashes them here lol cry me a river 
    watto_cobrabaconstang
  • Reply 74 of 77
    fastasleepfastasleep Posts: 5,477member
    Peza said:
    reroll said:
    Apple should close shop in all those money grabbing countries. That’ll teach them!
    Hahahahahahaha I hope they was sarcasm? Considering it would effectively mean Apple closing it's entire business. 

    This is a great move, you can have a single store in London pay the same tax as Amazon does on its entire global earning due to their tax dodging...
    Hardly fair in the slightest. But I also fear these companies will just pass the costs directly onto the consumer. 
    The UK already has a flat corporate tax rate of 19%, dumbass. The point of this agreement is to make companies like Amazon pay more in international jurisdictions where the corporate tax rate is less than 15%.
    watto_cobrabaconstang
  • Reply 75 of 77
    croprcropr Posts: 1,046member
    lkrupp said:
    crowley said:
    I wonder how many of those that insisted "Apple never did anything wrong" and that "politicians should focus on closing loopholes rather than going after Apple" are going to be singing the same tune now that politicians have worked together to close loopholes.
    Get ready for higher prices for your Apple gear. The end user winds up paying those taxes just like the middle class always winds up paying for every dollar the government spends. That’s how the world works, or didn’t you know that.
    Not necessarily.     Taxes for companies are paid on the profit they make on all products and services combined, including the profit/loss of acquisitions. The taxes are due long after the sales have been made, typically in the next year,   It is very difficult for a large company like Apple, offering multiple products and services, to estimate upfront the tax it will pay.

    The profit generated from the products and services can be impacted by too many external factors or by a changed mix of products. The impact of planned acquisitions is impossible to estimate correctly, because acquisitions can be delayed or not allowed by the authorities.    In most countries losses from previous years can be subtracted from the profits, blurring the picture as well.  On top of that there are market dynamics.   If a company increases the prices of a product but others companies don't follow, some customers will change supplier.     

    Just to give an idea. Suppose this G7 tax would have been applicable in 2020 and companies would have wanted to increase the prices starting January 2020.  How on earth could anyone calculate by the end of 2019 how much the prices should increase, totally unaware of the Covid 19 pandemic?


    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 76 of 77
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,023member
    So how does Big Tech US react? Very positively as I would have expected. 15% is so very manageable and puts to rest a whole lotta possible tax evasion/avoidance lawsuits.

    - Amazon said the agreement “marks a welcome step forward” in efforts to “bring stability to the international tax system.

    - Nick Clegg, Facebook’s vice president for global affairs, welcomed the G-7 deal and said the social networking giant “has long called for reform of the global tax rules.... We want the international tax reform process to succeed and recognize this could mean Facebook paying more tax, and in different places.” 

    - Google says the company
     strongly supported the initiative and hoped for a “balanced and durable” agreement.

    Apple has not commented as far as I know.
    edited June 7 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 77 of 77
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 9,889member
    crowley said:
    crowley said:
    I wonder how many of those that insisted "Apple never did anything wrong" and that "politicians should focus on closing loopholes rather than going after Apple" are going to be singing the same tune now that politicians have worked together to close loopholes.
    My guess is that they will sing the same tune now. Apple tries to pay all the taxes it legally should and will continue to do so even if the taxes are raised.
    Why do you think the people who insisted that Apple never did anything wrong and that politicians should focus on closing the loopholes would say otherwise now?
    A hunch that many of those who blamed politicians for tax loopholes will also blame politicians for overtaxation, overreach, and over everything else.  And that they will always see Apple as the victim.

    Yeh, it's what happens when one starts with an ideology and then backs into the facts to support the opinion.

    It's become very popular lately.

    The truth:  
    Yes, every CEO is supposed to be loyal to and support his company
    Every president and Treasury Secretary are supposed to be loyal to and support their country.

    But, in the end, both company and country do best when they support each other and both do well:  it's not a zero sum, win/lose game.

    People like Warren Buffet understand how it works and support higher taxes -- enough to let a government fulfill its obligations to its people and to its corporations.
Sign In or Register to comment.