Ireland plays defense as overhaul to global corporate tax rate looms

Posted:
in General Discussion edited July 2021
The Irish government is on the defensive because of a new global tax plan could threaten its status as a tax haven for multinational corporations like Apple.

Credit: Apple
Credit: Apple


Earlier in 2021, the G7 group of nations agreed to close tax loopholes leveraged by global companies by enforcing a minimum corporate tax rate of at least 15%. Now, The New York Times reports that Ireland plans to put up a fight.

The New York Times reports that Ireland is "hunkering down" to battle what could be a significant threat to its livelihood. Ireland has long lured major companies like Apple, Google, Facebook, and Twitter by offering low corporate tax rates. The country's economic boom from foreign investment since the 1990s has even gained a term, the "Celtic Tiger."

"Ireland is very much a tax haven operating in Europe, so it makes sense that Ireland will resist this as hard as they can. The Celtic Tiger is something to be proud of, and if the model is breaking they need to look like they are defending it as much as possible," said Alex Cobham, chief executive of the Tax Justice Network.

Currently, Ireland has an official corporate tax of 12.5% and a tax regime that helps multinational companies based in the country avoid paying taxes to other nations where they make a profit. This has helped Ireland garner billions of euros and create hundreds of thousands of local jobs.

Ireland has pushed back against the proposed tax overhaul. The country was among nine that did not sign on to the sweeping tax reform earlier in July, joining other low-tax nations like Barbados.

Although both tax revenue and jobs are at stake for the Irish government, the optics of fighting back could be difficult. The New York Times reports that Ireland risks looking like it wants to deprive other countries of their fair share of tax revenue.

An overhauled global tax system could cost Ireland 2 billion to 3 billion euros each year. Much of that would go to other countries. Ireland brought in roughly 12 billion euros in corporate taxes in 2020.

Ireland's finance minister declined interview requests and the opportunity to answer written questions. Major multinational corporations that have benefitted from Ireland's tax policies also declined comment to The New York Times.

If the tax overhaul is implemented, major corporations who have set up shop in Ireland aren't likely to leave right away, given the time and resources they spent making the country their European base.

For Apple, analysts believe that the proposed tax rules could "almost completely" erase benefits of prior tax reductions. However, back in January, Apple CEO Tim Cook voiced his support of a tax overhaul.

"I think logically everybody knows it needs to be rehauled, I would certainly be the last person to say that the current system or the past system was the perfect system," Cook at the time. "I'm hopeful and optimistic that they (OECD) will find something."

Keep up with everything Apple in the weekly AppleInsider Podcast -- and get a fast news update from AppleInsider Daily. Just say, "Hey, Siri," to your HomePod mini and ask for these podcasts, and our latest HomeKit Insider episode too.If you want an ad-free main AppleInsider Podcast experience, you can support the AppleInsider podcast by subscribing for $5 per month through Apple's Podcasts app, or via Patreon if you prefer any other podcast player.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 23
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member

    Although both tax revenue and jobs are at stake for the Irish government, the optics of fighting back could be difficult. The New York Times reports that Ireland risks looking like it wants to deprive other countries of their fair share of tax revenue.

    What’s not a good look is much larger countries with significantly more resources whining about Ireland’s lower tax rate being unfair.  These larger European nations have significant advantages over Ireland, which they conveniently overlook.  Ireland’s only and legitimate way to compensate for that is lower tax rates and that’s good for international competition.  Tax rate harmonization only helps the already larger countries maintain and extend their dominance.

    edited July 2021 bshankbeowulfschmidt
  • Reply 2 of 23
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    elijahggatorguy
  • Reply 3 of 23
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?
    edited July 2021 bshank
  • Reply 4 of 23
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 1,031member
    There should not be any tax havens. 

    Taxation based on local economic activity is the only fair approach. For Apple or any other company to make money and spend money in other countries, and allow those numbers to be used in another country is unfair to everyone -- it's exploitation otherwise.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 5 of 23
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?

    No, not at all -- this is definitely an OECD issue.
    Ireland was neither the first tax haven nor is it the only tax haven leading the race to the bottom.   Nor is it only the EU being impacted by this race to the bottom.  All developed countries are, including the U.S.

    That's why the U.S. is leading the way to eliminate what amounts to legalized cheating.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 6 of 23
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?

    No, not at all -- this is definitely an OECD issue.
    Ireland was neither the first tax haven nor is it the only tax haven leading the race to the bottom.   Nor is it only the EU being impacted by this race to the bottom.  All developed countries are, including the U.S.

    That's why the U.S. is leading the way to eliminate what amounts to legalized cheating.
    You haven’t addressed the central point that a number of large counties are trying to establish a minimum corporate tax of 15%.  Why?  Who gains from this?  Surely you can’t be suggesting that if one country has low tax rates than that is “cheating.”  Setting national tax rates is a legitimate way for nations to structure their economies and perhaps gain competitive advantage over other nations.

    Many use the terms “tax haven and loophole” without defining what they really mean in the tax code.  Having a lower tax rate than others is neither of those.  So, I don’t get what you are trying to say with “race to the bottom.”  It could equally be interpreted as an effort by those who desire greater state control over their economies to leverage a tax floor to force other nations with different priorities to structure their economies along the same lines.  

    Blanket tax harmonization will strangle the diversity of national economic structures, which will almost certainly be counterproductive to growth of the world economy over the long haul, and hit the poorest nations the hardest.  Smaller less powerful nations should rightly fear this push by an already powerful block of nations.  Ireland should stand its ground!
    edited July 2021
  • Reply 7 of 23
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?

    No, not at all -- this is definitely an OECD issue.
    Ireland was neither the first tax haven nor is it the only tax haven leading the race to the bottom.   Nor is it only the EU being impacted by this race to the bottom.  All developed countries are, including the U.S.

    That's why the U.S. is leading the way to eliminate what amounts to legalized cheating.
    You haven’t addressed the central point that a number of large counties are trying to establish a minimum corporate tax of 15%.  Why?  Who gains from this?  Surely you can’t be suggesting that if one country has low tax rates than that is “cheating.”  Setting national tax rates is a legitimate way for nations to structure their economies and perhaps gain competitive advantage over other nations.

    Many use the terms “tax haven and loophole” without defining what they really mean in the tax code.  Having a lower tax rate than others is neither of those.  So, I don’t get what you are trying to say with “race to the bottom.”  It could equally be interpreted as an effort by those who desire greater state control over their economies to leverage a tax floor to force other nations with different priorities to structure their economies along the same lines.  

    Blanket tax harmonization will strangle the diversity of national economic structures, which will almost certainly be counterproductive to growth of the world economy over the long haul, and hit the poorest nations the hardest.  Smaller less powerful nations should rightly fear this push by an already powerful block of nations.  Ireland should stand its ground!
    Who gains?   That's the wrong question.  Rather it should be "Who stops losing?"   And that is related to your other question/point of "What is a race to the bottom".

    You are obviously approaching this from the Libertarian, anti-tax point of view that, I think, can be summarized as "All taxes are bad because they take money from people and business and waste it down a black hole".

    That is simply not correct.

    Taxes are not taking money from others and funneling it down into some black hole.  Like people and corporations, governments need revenue to operate, to do what they need to do.  People get revenue primarily by receiving salaries and wages,   Businesses receive revenue through sales.   Governments receive their revenue primarily through taxation -- which has been going on since at least the Roman time.  You can debate whether they use those tax dollars wisely -- but that is a separate question.

    Essentially, Governments are there to serve both people and businesses by creating and supporting infrastructure, national defense and maintaining a stable, reliable, predictable society, etc...   The money they collect does not go down some black hole.  

    So, what is the race to the bottom?
    Janet Yellen can explain it better.   But essentially that's when one nation tries to undercut all other nations -- where it sets itself up as a tax haven where it shifts the collection of  tax dollars to itself from revenue corporations earn in other countries.    It's a race to the bottom where nations who do nothing and contribute nothing try to out-do each other taking revenue from those nations that earned it.

    This proposal ends that ability.
    It sets a minimum tax that is paid to the country where a company does its business and earns its revenue.
    In short, it puts government revenue where it belongs and stops the cheaters (like Ireland and others) who did nothing to earn it from taking it.

    It's statement to companies is simple:   "If you do business here, earn your revenue here, you pay taxes here.  No more cheating."
    edited July 2021 mariowincoelijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 8 of 23
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    So Ireland objects to its ability to act as a tax haven being compromised or eliminated?
    Janet Yellen says:   So?

    According to Reuters she said about getting every country on board:
    "We'll be trying to do that, but I should emphasise it's not essential that every country be on board," she said.

    "This agreement contains a kind of enforcement mechanism that can be used to make sure that countries that are holdouts are not able to undermine - to use tax havens that undermine the operation of this global agreement."

    The G20 members account for more than 80% of world gross domestic product, 75% of global trade and 60% of the population of the planet, including big-hitters the United States, Japan, Britain, France, Germany and India.

    In addition to European Union holdouts Ireland, Estonia and Hungary, other countries that have not signed on include Kenya, Nigeria, Sri Lanka, Barbados and St. Vincent and Grenadines."

    In other words:   Ireland is welcome to take their football and go home.  Bye-bye.


    edited July 2021 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 9 of 23
    bshankbshank Posts: 255member
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?
    To give the bigger countries more money
  • Reply 10 of 23
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    bshank said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?
    To give the bigger countries more money
    Rather to keep the tax haven scammers from stealing tax dollars from the countries where the corporations actually make their money.

    muthuk_vanalingamgatorguy
  • Reply 11 of 23
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?

    No, not at all -- this is definitely an OECD issue.
    Ireland was neither the first tax haven nor is it the only tax haven leading the race to the bottom.   Nor is it only the EU being impacted by this race to the bottom.  All developed countries are, including the U.S.

    That's why the U.S. is leading the way to eliminate what amounts to legalized cheating.
    You haven’t addressed the central point that a number of large counties are trying to establish a minimum corporate tax of 15%.  Why?  Who gains from this?  Surely you can’t be suggesting that if one country has low tax rates than that is “cheating.”  Setting national tax rates is a legitimate way for nations to structure their economies and perhaps gain competitive advantage over other nations.

    Many use the terms “tax haven and loophole” without defining what they really mean in the tax code.  Having a lower tax rate than others is neither of those.  So, I don’t get what you are trying to say with “race to the bottom.”  It could equally be interpreted as an effort by those who desire greater state control over their economies to leverage a tax floor to force other nations with different priorities to structure their economies along the same lines.  

    Blanket tax harmonization will strangle the diversity of national economic structures, which will almost certainly be counterproductive to growth of the world economy over the long haul, and hit the poorest nations the hardest.  Smaller less powerful nations should rightly fear this push by an already powerful block of nations.  Ireland should stand its ground!
    Who gains?   That's the wrong question.  Rather it should be "Who stops losing?"   And that is related to your other question/point of "What is a race to the bottom".

    You are obviously approaching this from the Libertarian, anti-tax point of view that, I think, can be summarized as "All taxes are bad because they take money from people and business and waste it down a black hole".

    That is simply not correct.

    Taxes are not taking money from others and funneling it down into some black hole.  Like people and corporations, governments need revenue to operate, to do what they need to do.  People get revenue primarily by receiving salaries and wages,   Businesses receive revenue through sales.   Governments receive their revenue primarily through taxation -- which has been going on since at least the Roman time.  You can debate whether they use those tax dollars wisely -- but that is a separate question.

    Essentially, Governments are there to serve both people and businesses by creating and supporting infrastructure, national defense and maintaining a stable, reliable, predictable society, etc...   The money they collect does not go down some black hole.  

    So, what is the race to the bottom?
    Janet Yellen can explain it better.   But essentially that's when one nation tries to undercut all other nations -- where it sets itself up as a tax haven where it shifts the collection of  tax dollars to itself from revenue corporations earn in other countries.    It's a race to the bottom where nations who do nothing and contribute nothing try to out-do each other taking revenue from those nations that earned it.

    This proposal ends that ability.
    It sets a minimum tax that is paid to the country where a company does its business and earns its revenue.
    In short, it puts government revenue where it belongs and stops the cheaters (like Ireland and others) who did nothing to earn it from taking it.

    It's statement to companies is simple:   "If you do business here, earn your revenue here, you pay taxes here.  No more cheating."

    Putting aside your that rather long winded diatribe to repudiate something I did not say, “All taxes are bad,” the government of Ireland is ethically and morally bound to do what is best for its people, regardless of what outsiders might insist.  Sadly, I am unable to address your lack of economic acumen as you are entirely unprepared to hear it nor accept it from me.

    I do have a moderate libertarian bent, but I certainly acknowledge that taxes always will (must) have their place in a cohesive society.  But reasonable people can disagree about how much Government should dominate a society.  I believe it is within each nation’s sovereign right to decide what that level of Government should be, and tax it’s citizens accordingly.

  • Reply 12 of 23
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?

    No, not at all -- this is definitely an OECD issue.
    Ireland was neither the first tax haven nor is it the only tax haven leading the race to the bottom.   Nor is it only the EU being impacted by this race to the bottom.  All developed countries are, including the U.S.

    That's why the U.S. is leading the way to eliminate what amounts to legalized cheating.
    You haven’t addressed the central point that a number of large counties are trying to establish a minimum corporate tax of 15%.  Why?  Who gains from this?  Surely you can’t be suggesting that if one country has low tax rates than that is “cheating.”  Setting national tax rates is a legitimate way for nations to structure their economies and perhaps gain competitive advantage over other nations.

    Many use the terms “tax haven and loophole” without defining what they really mean in the tax code.  Having a lower tax rate than others is neither of those.  So, I don’t get what you are trying to say with “race to the bottom.”  It could equally be interpreted as an effort by those who desire greater state control over their economies to leverage a tax floor to force other nations with different priorities to structure their economies along the same lines.  

    Blanket tax harmonization will strangle the diversity of national economic structures, which will almost certainly be counterproductive to growth of the world economy over the long haul, and hit the poorest nations the hardest.  Smaller less powerful nations should rightly fear this push by an already powerful block of nations.  Ireland should stand its ground!
    Who gains?   That's the wrong question.  Rather it should be "Who stops losing?"   And that is related to your other question/point of "What is a race to the bottom".

    You are obviously approaching this from the Libertarian, anti-tax point of view that, I think, can be summarized as "All taxes are bad because they take money from people and business and waste it down a black hole".

    That is simply not correct.

    Taxes are not taking money from others and funneling it down into some black hole.  Like people and corporations, governments need revenue to operate, to do what they need to do.  People get revenue primarily by receiving salaries and wages,   Businesses receive revenue through sales.   Governments receive their revenue primarily through taxation -- which has been going on since at least the Roman time.  You can debate whether they use those tax dollars wisely -- but that is a separate question.

    Essentially, Governments are there to serve both people and businesses by creating and supporting infrastructure, national defense and maintaining a stable, reliable, predictable society, etc...   The money they collect does not go down some black hole.  

    So, what is the race to the bottom?
    Janet Yellen can explain it better.   But essentially that's when one nation tries to undercut all other nations -- where it sets itself up as a tax haven where it shifts the collection of  tax dollars to itself from revenue corporations earn in other countries.    It's a race to the bottom where nations who do nothing and contribute nothing try to out-do each other taking revenue from those nations that earned it.

    This proposal ends that ability.
    It sets a minimum tax that is paid to the country where a company does its business and earns its revenue.
    In short, it puts government revenue where it belongs and stops the cheaters (like Ireland and others) who did nothing to earn it from taking it.

    It's statement to companies is simple:   "If you do business here, earn your revenue here, you pay taxes here.  No more cheating."

    Putting aside your that rather long winded diatribe to repudiate something I did not say, “All taxes are bad,” the government of Ireland is ethically and morally bound to do what is best for its people, regardless of what outsiders might insist.  Sadly, I am unable to address your lack of economic acumen as you are entirely unprepared to hear it nor accept it from me.

    I do have a moderate libertarian bent, but I certainly acknowledge that taxes always will (must) have their place in a cohesive society.  But reasonable people can disagree about how much Government should dominate a society.  I believe it is within each nation’s sovereign right to decide what that level of Government should be, and tax it’s citizens accordingly.

    "Ethically and morally" mean the same thing, and are pretty meaningless terms in an area like a government's approach to corporate taxation.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 13 of 23
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?

    No, not at all -- this is definitely an OECD issue.
    Ireland was neither the first tax haven nor is it the only tax haven leading the race to the bottom.   Nor is it only the EU being impacted by this race to the bottom.  All developed countries are, including the U.S.

    That's why the U.S. is leading the way to eliminate what amounts to legalized cheating.
    You haven’t addressed the central point that a number of large counties are trying to establish a minimum corporate tax of 15%.  Why?  Who gains from this?  Surely you can’t be suggesting that if one country has low tax rates than that is “cheating.”  Setting national tax rates is a legitimate way for nations to structure their economies and perhaps gain competitive advantage over other nations.

    Many use the terms “tax haven and loophole” without defining what they really mean in the tax code.  Having a lower tax rate than others is neither of those.  So, I don’t get what you are trying to say with “race to the bottom.”  It could equally be interpreted as an effort by those who desire greater state control over their economies to leverage a tax floor to force other nations with different priorities to structure their economies along the same lines.  

    Blanket tax harmonization will strangle the diversity of national economic structures, which will almost certainly be counterproductive to growth of the world economy over the long haul, and hit the poorest nations the hardest.  Smaller less powerful nations should rightly fear this push by an already powerful block of nations.  Ireland should stand its ground!
    Who gains?   That's the wrong question.  Rather it should be "Who stops losing?"   And that is related to your other question/point of "What is a race to the bottom".

    You are obviously approaching this from the Libertarian, anti-tax point of view that, I think, can be summarized as "All taxes are bad because they take money from people and business and waste it down a black hole".

    That is simply not correct.

    Taxes are not taking money from others and funneling it down into some black hole.  Like people and corporations, governments need revenue to operate, to do what they need to do.  People get revenue primarily by receiving salaries and wages,   Businesses receive revenue through sales.   Governments receive their revenue primarily through taxation -- which has been going on since at least the Roman time.  You can debate whether they use those tax dollars wisely -- but that is a separate question.

    Essentially, Governments are there to serve both people and businesses by creating and supporting infrastructure, national defense and maintaining a stable, reliable, predictable society, etc...   The money they collect does not go down some black hole.  

    So, what is the race to the bottom?
    Janet Yellen can explain it better.   But essentially that's when one nation tries to undercut all other nations -- where it sets itself up as a tax haven where it shifts the collection of  tax dollars to itself from revenue corporations earn in other countries.    It's a race to the bottom where nations who do nothing and contribute nothing try to out-do each other taking revenue from those nations that earned it.

    This proposal ends that ability.
    It sets a minimum tax that is paid to the country where a company does its business and earns its revenue.
    In short, it puts government revenue where it belongs and stops the cheaters (like Ireland and others) who did nothing to earn it from taking it.

    It's statement to companies is simple:   "If you do business here, earn your revenue here, you pay taxes here.  No more cheating."

    Putting aside your that rather long winded diatribe to repudiate something I did not say, “All taxes are bad,” the government of Ireland is ethically and morally bound to do what is best for its people, regardless of what outsiders might insist.  Sadly, I am unable to address your lack of economic acumen as you are entirely unprepared to hear it nor accept it from me.

    I do have a moderate libertarian bent, but I certainly acknowledge that taxes always will (must) have their place in a cohesive society.  But reasonable people can disagree about how much Government should dominate a society.  I believe it is within each nation’s sovereign right to decide what that level of Government should be, and tax it’s citizens accordingly.


    Your claim that tax havens like Ireland are "ethically and morally bound to" raise revenue as best they can could also be used to justify robbing banks -- so it just doesn't hold up under scrutiny.  And, like bank robbers, their little operation is being shut down and they'll have to make their money the honest way:  work for it. 

    As for economic training, I have apparently more than you do -- including in Libertarian economics.   At the time that I received it I believed it.  It made logical sense.  Now I'm older and wiser and see that it simply does not serve society well.  I see its deficiencies.
    mariowincomuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 14 of 23
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?

    No, not at all -- this is definitely an OECD issue.
    Ireland was neither the first tax haven nor is it the only tax haven leading the race to the bottom.   Nor is it only the EU being impacted by this race to the bottom.  All developed countries are, including the U.S.

    That's why the U.S. is leading the way to eliminate what amounts to legalized cheating.
    You haven’t addressed the central point that a number of large counties are trying to establish a minimum corporate tax of 15%.  Why?  Who gains from this?  Surely you can’t be suggesting that if one country has low tax rates than that is “cheating.”  Setting national tax rates is a legitimate way for nations to structure their economies and perhaps gain competitive advantage over other nations.

    Many use the terms “tax haven and loophole” without defining what they really mean in the tax code.  Having a lower tax rate than others is neither of those.  So, I don’t get what you are trying to say with “race to the bottom.”  It could equally be interpreted as an effort by those who desire greater state control over their economies to leverage a tax floor to force other nations with different priorities to structure their economies along the same lines.  

    Blanket tax harmonization will strangle the diversity of national economic structures, which will almost certainly be counterproductive to growth of the world economy over the long haul, and hit the poorest nations the hardest.  Smaller less powerful nations should rightly fear this push by an already powerful block of nations.  Ireland should stand its ground!
    Who gains?   That's the wrong question.  Rather it should be "Who stops losing?"   And that is related to your other question/point of "What is a race to the bottom".

    You are obviously approaching this from the Libertarian, anti-tax point of view that, I think, can be summarized as "All taxes are bad because they take money from people and business and waste it down a black hole".

    That is simply not correct.

    Taxes are not taking money from others and funneling it down into some black hole.  Like people and corporations, governments need revenue to operate, to do what they need to do.  People get revenue primarily by receiving salaries and wages,   Businesses receive revenue through sales.   Governments receive their revenue primarily through taxation -- which has been going on since at least the Roman time.  You can debate whether they use those tax dollars wisely -- but that is a separate question.

    Essentially, Governments are there to serve both people and businesses by creating and supporting infrastructure, national defense and maintaining a stable, reliable, predictable society, etc...   The money they collect does not go down some black hole.  

    So, what is the race to the bottom?
    Janet Yellen can explain it better.   But essentially that's when one nation tries to undercut all other nations -- where it sets itself up as a tax haven where it shifts the collection of  tax dollars to itself from revenue corporations earn in other countries.    It's a race to the bottom where nations who do nothing and contribute nothing try to out-do each other taking revenue from those nations that earned it.

    This proposal ends that ability.
    It sets a minimum tax that is paid to the country where a company does its business and earns its revenue.
    In short, it puts government revenue where it belongs and stops the cheaters (like Ireland and others) who did nothing to earn it from taking it.

    It's statement to companies is simple:   "If you do business here, earn your revenue here, you pay taxes here.  No more cheating."

    Putting aside your that rather long winded diatribe to repudiate something I did not say, “All taxes are bad,” the government of Ireland is ethically and morally bound to do what is best for its people, regardless of what outsiders might insist.  Sadly, I am unable to address your lack of economic acumen as you are entirely unprepared to hear it nor accept it from me.

    I do have a moderate libertarian bent, but I certainly acknowledge that taxes always will (must) have their place in a cohesive society.  But reasonable people can disagree about how much Government should dominate a society.  I believe it is within each nation’s sovereign right to decide what that level of Government should be, and tax it’s citizens accordingly.


    And, according to the AP, Yellen has again attacked the tax havens telling them they'll have to compete instead of cheat:
    "“This deal will end the race to the bottom,” she said at a news conference after the end of the meeting in Venice.

    “Instead of asking the question: ‘Who can offer the lowest tax rate?,’ it will allow all of our countries to compete on the basis of economic fundamentals – on the skill of our workforces, our capacity to innovate, and the strength of our legal and economic institutions.”

    “And this deal will give our nations the ability to raise the necessary funding for important public goods like infrastructure, R&D, and education.”


    Isn't that the essence of capitalism?  Where the best do best?


    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 15 of 23
    bshankbshank Posts: 255member
    bshank said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?
    To give the bigger countries more money
    Rather to keep the tax haven scammers from stealing tax dollars from the countries where the corporations actually make their money.

    Indirect subsidy for EU companies due to their conglomeration of countries that make innovation impossible so you need Apple’s money to make unrivaled innovation like Spotify to give people like Daniel Ek the ego trip he’s seeking
    edited July 2021
  • Reply 16 of 23
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    bshank said:
    bshank said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?
    To give the bigger countries more money
    Rather to keep the tax haven scammers from stealing tax dollars from the countries where the corporations actually make their money.

    Indirect subsidy for EU companies due to their conglomeration of countries that make innovation impossible so you need Apple’s money to make unrivaled innovation like Spotify to give people like Daniel Ek the ego trip he’s seeking
    So how much innovation goes on in the tax havens?   In fact, how much of anything good or productive goes on in the tax havens?

    None?
    That's why they need to steal tax dollars from the countries where companies like Google make their money.
    Those countries are parasites feeding off of others.

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 17 of 23
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member
    crowley said:
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?

    No, not at all -- this is definitely an OECD issue.
    Ireland was neither the first tax haven nor is it the only tax haven leading the race to the bottom.   Nor is it only the EU being impacted by this race to the bottom.  All developed countries are, including the U.S.

    That's why the U.S. is leading the way to eliminate what amounts to legalized cheating.
    You haven’t addressed the central point that a number of large counties are trying to establish a minimum corporate tax of 15%.  Why?  Who gains from this?  Surely you can’t be suggesting that if one country has low tax rates than that is “cheating.”  Setting national tax rates is a legitimate way for nations to structure their economies and perhaps gain competitive advantage over other nations.

    Many use the terms “tax haven and loophole” without defining what they really mean in the tax code.  Having a lower tax rate than others is neither of those.  So, I don’t get what you are trying to say with “race to the bottom.”  It could equally be interpreted as an effort by those who desire greater state control over their economies to leverage a tax floor to force other nations with different priorities to structure their economies along the same lines.  

    Blanket tax harmonization will strangle the diversity of national economic structures, which will almost certainly be counterproductive to growth of the world economy over the long haul, and hit the poorest nations the hardest.  Smaller less powerful nations should rightly fear this push by an already powerful block of nations.  Ireland should stand its ground!
    Who gains?   That's the wrong question.  Rather it should be "Who stops losing?"   And that is related to your other question/point of "What is a race to the bottom".

    You are obviously approaching this from the Libertarian, anti-tax point of view that, I think, can be summarized as "All taxes are bad because they take money from people and business and waste it down a black hole".

    That is simply not correct.

    Taxes are not taking money from others and funneling it down into some black hole.  Like people and corporations, governments need revenue to operate, to do what they need to do.  People get revenue primarily by receiving salaries and wages,   Businesses receive revenue through sales.   Governments receive their revenue primarily through taxation -- which has been going on since at least the Roman time.  You can debate whether they use those tax dollars wisely -- but that is a separate question.

    Essentially, Governments are there to serve both people and businesses by creating and supporting infrastructure, national defense and maintaining a stable, reliable, predictable society, etc...   The money they collect does not go down some black hole.  

    So, what is the race to the bottom?
    Janet Yellen can explain it better.   But essentially that's when one nation tries to undercut all other nations -- where it sets itself up as a tax haven where it shifts the collection of  tax dollars to itself from revenue corporations earn in other countries.    It's a race to the bottom where nations who do nothing and contribute nothing try to out-do each other taking revenue from those nations that earned it.

    This proposal ends that ability.
    It sets a minimum tax that is paid to the country where a company does its business and earns its revenue.
    In short, it puts government revenue where it belongs and stops the cheaters (like Ireland and others) who did nothing to earn it from taking it.

    It's statement to companies is simple:   "If you do business here, earn your revenue here, you pay taxes here.  No more cheating."

    Putting aside your that rather long winded diatribe to repudiate something I did not say, “All taxes are bad,” the government of Ireland is ethically and morally bound to do what is best for its people, regardless of what outsiders might insist.  Sadly, I am unable to address your lack of economic acumen as you are entirely unprepared to hear it nor accept it from me.

    I do have a moderate libertarian bent, but I certainly acknowledge that taxes always will (must) have their place in a cohesive society.  But reasonable people can disagree about how much Government should dominate a society.  I believe it is within each nation’s sovereign right to decide what that level of Government should be, and tax it’s citizens accordingly.

    "Ethically and morally" mean the same thing, and are pretty meaningless terms in an area like a government's approach to corporate taxation.
    They do not mean the same thing.

    “Immoral refers to a violation of certain standards that govern human behaviour and conduct.

    Unethical, on the other hand, involves the non-conformity to certain standards that guide a particular role, group or profession.

    Immoral is deeper, in the sense that is based on an individual’s personal and/or spiritual beliefs and what he/she considers to be moral/immoral.

    Unethical, however, traditionally governs the conduct or behaviour of individuals belonging to a particular group or profession.”


  • Reply 18 of 23
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    George, you've nailed a position that we both agree on, and your series of posts on the subject are well-argued and logical. I too started out fairly Libertarian, but real life had to throw in a monkeywrench. So in this case we're on the same page. 

    Yes, pigs do fly!
    muthuk_vanalingamGeorgeBMac
  • Reply 19 of 23
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    JWSC said:
    crowley said:
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?

    No, not at all -- this is definitely an OECD issue.
    Ireland was neither the first tax haven nor is it the only tax haven leading the race to the bottom.   Nor is it only the EU being impacted by this race to the bottom.  All developed countries are, including the U.S.

    That's why the U.S. is leading the way to eliminate what amounts to legalized cheating.
    You haven’t addressed the central point that a number of large counties are trying to establish a minimum corporate tax of 15%.  Why?  Who gains from this?  Surely you can’t be suggesting that if one country has low tax rates than that is “cheating.”  Setting national tax rates is a legitimate way for nations to structure their economies and perhaps gain competitive advantage over other nations.

    Many use the terms “tax haven and loophole” without defining what they really mean in the tax code.  Having a lower tax rate than others is neither of those.  So, I don’t get what you are trying to say with “race to the bottom.”  It could equally be interpreted as an effort by those who desire greater state control over their economies to leverage a tax floor to force other nations with different priorities to structure their economies along the same lines.  

    Blanket tax harmonization will strangle the diversity of national economic structures, which will almost certainly be counterproductive to growth of the world economy over the long haul, and hit the poorest nations the hardest.  Smaller less powerful nations should rightly fear this push by an already powerful block of nations.  Ireland should stand its ground!
    Who gains?   That's the wrong question.  Rather it should be "Who stops losing?"   And that is related to your other question/point of "What is a race to the bottom".

    You are obviously approaching this from the Libertarian, anti-tax point of view that, I think, can be summarized as "All taxes are bad because they take money from people and business and waste it down a black hole".

    That is simply not correct.

    Taxes are not taking money from others and funneling it down into some black hole.  Like people and corporations, governments need revenue to operate, to do what they need to do.  People get revenue primarily by receiving salaries and wages,   Businesses receive revenue through sales.   Governments receive their revenue primarily through taxation -- which has been going on since at least the Roman time.  You can debate whether they use those tax dollars wisely -- but that is a separate question.

    Essentially, Governments are there to serve both people and businesses by creating and supporting infrastructure, national defense and maintaining a stable, reliable, predictable society, etc...   The money they collect does not go down some black hole.  

    So, what is the race to the bottom?
    Janet Yellen can explain it better.   But essentially that's when one nation tries to undercut all other nations -- where it sets itself up as a tax haven where it shifts the collection of  tax dollars to itself from revenue corporations earn in other countries.    It's a race to the bottom where nations who do nothing and contribute nothing try to out-do each other taking revenue from those nations that earned it.

    This proposal ends that ability.
    It sets a minimum tax that is paid to the country where a company does its business and earns its revenue.
    In short, it puts government revenue where it belongs and stops the cheaters (like Ireland and others) who did nothing to earn it from taking it.

    It's statement to companies is simple:   "If you do business here, earn your revenue here, you pay taxes here.  No more cheating."

    Putting aside your that rather long winded diatribe to repudiate something I did not say, “All taxes are bad,” the government of Ireland is ethically and morally bound to do what is best for its people, regardless of what outsiders might insist.  Sadly, I am unable to address your lack of economic acumen as you are entirely unprepared to hear it nor accept it from me.

    I do have a moderate libertarian bent, but I certainly acknowledge that taxes always will (must) have their place in a cohesive society.  But reasonable people can disagree about how much Government should dominate a society.  I believe it is within each nation’s sovereign right to decide what that level of Government should be, and tax it’s citizens accordingly.

    "Ethically and morally" mean the same thing, and are pretty meaningless terms in an area like a government's approach to corporate taxation.
    They do not mean the same thing.

    “Immoral refers to a violation of certain standards that govern human behaviour and conduct.

    Unethical, on the other hand, involves the non-conformity to certain standards that guide a particular role, group or profession.

    Immoral is deeper, in the sense that is based on an individual’s personal and/or spiritual beliefs and what he/she considers to be moral/immoral.

    Unethical, however, traditionally governs the conduct or behaviour of individuals belonging to a particular group or profession.”

    As I said, ethics and morals are pretty meaningless terms in an area like a government's approach to corporate taxation.  As they concern principle they are tantamount to the same thing, especially since in this context neither of them necessarily confer a duty to do what is best for its people (a subjective idea anyway).

    Governments do not have morals because they aren't people.  As a group of people their morals will have flex and variation, and do not necessarily confer a need to do "
    what is best for its people" so the concept is meaningless.

    Governments only have definitive professional ethics in the form of whatever oath their members swear, which has variation across jurisdictions and does not confer a necessary ethical responsibility to do "
    what is best for its people" unless that is in the text of the oath (it often isn't).  Codes Of Conduct may have some influence, but are unlikely to stipulate that the member will do what is best for its people because such a concept is so nebulous.  You might argue that political norms confer some other responsibility, but that is very debateable, and almost certainly unenforceable.  

    And coming back to the principal context, this is about corporate taxation.  There are no ethics or morals that have any reasonable sway over this area.  Libertarianism is not an ethical framework, it's a political ideology. 
  • Reply 20 of 23
    bshankbshank Posts: 255member
    bshank said:
    bshank said:
    JWSC said:
    Sorry Ireland.   The race you're leading to the bottom is coming to an end.

    You'll have to survive on your abilities rather than undercutting the countries that actually produce the revenue you're taking as taxes for yourself.

    So sorry!
    This is really an EU rather than OECD issue.  Tax laws reflect the fundamental choices of different EU countries in important areas of public expenditure, such as education, health and pensions. They influence private consumption, savings and the financial choices of businesses. This is why the power to raise taxes and set tax rates lies with national governments within the EU.  This has been a fundamental tenet of the EU since the inception of the Common Market.  So why the call for tax harmonization all of a sudden?

    Accusations of “unfair” and “tax evasion” emanate from the much larger EU countries that have more lavish government social expenditures.  That is their sovereign choice.  But Ireland must also be permitted it’s own choices, otherwise, what is the point of being in the EU at all?
    To give the bigger countries more money
    Rather to keep the tax haven scammers from stealing tax dollars from the countries where the corporations actually make their money.

    Indirect subsidy for EU companies due to their conglomeration of countries that make innovation impossible so you need Apple’s money to make unrivaled innovation like Spotify to give people like Daniel Ek the ego trip he’s seeking
    So how much innovation goes on in the tax havens?   In fact, how much of anything good or productive goes on in the tax havens?

    None?
    That's why they need to steal tax dollars from the countries where companies like Google make their money.
    Those countries are parasites feeding off of others.

    Margarethe Vestager needs to feed Baby Ek. This is all it unfortunately. 
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