Tulkas, you're using the might of their military and past occurences to justify why we should love this campaign?
If the US wasn't there, the english would have been so how's that. I'm english, and no tellin what power the English would have amounted in 250 years of owning North America.
Geographic location alone doesn't account for our safety, neither though does the US, I know. But, the US is on the same side of the Atlantic and pacific as we, yet it didn't stop Japan from trying. Wouldn't have stopped Germany either. And it didn't stop 9/11.
That's why we created things like NATO and the UN, so that if you pick a fight with one country then you pick a fight with all of them, therefore you have to be one really crazy bastard to try and invade Canada, US or no US.
It all seemed to be working OK till one country ruined it. The one country which spends more per capita on defence than any other country--either because they are defending the world from evil, flash gordon style, or because the Military-Industrial complex effectively commited a coup at some point during the Cold War.
Anyway, these Businessmen, they don't need to work with other countries because they would rather spend a ridiculous amount of public money on their weapons (of mass destruction) and then find an excuse to use them to create more demand, so they ruin it for everyone and now every nation will need to build up an army to defend themselves, either from the US or from countries like Turkey that follow their lead.
You can have what the body count would be with "peace" during the same time it takes for war. I take Iraqi civilian war casualties and you take civilian casualties of UN sanctions.
Since we won't get a running tally for you, you have the following equation: 274 x #Days
Then we'll total up civilian casualties from war.
Let's see who "wins"!
You nor I will get an accurate account of the dead either way. Hidden or exaggerated numbers spun by both sides.
But it's not about "winning" . You seem to forget that it's about human lives and the will of the Iraqi people. Do you know for a fact that they want to be "liberated"? Did they ask to be liberated? Or do their opinions even matter to you?
I think we all agree here that people in iraq don't have an 'easy life' under Saddam controlled government, but..
simple thing is that this is their way of life, these people will defend their country against outside aggressor.
In eastern europe millions lived under communist governments for almost 50 years, yet it was them who ultimately caused communism to collapse.
What happened when there was an uprising against Saddam in 91?
coalition forces did nothing to help them, world watched how these movements were brutally extinguished by Iraq's military. Thousands of people were killed, but it was convinient for democratic governments to turn another way and pretend they don't see it happening.
During this time people of Iraq needed help, they were left alone. What happened in Afghanistan during Russian invasion? US supplied them with weapons and $$, but as soon as soviet forces bulled out, these people were abandoned too.
Help these people win their freedom, when they are calling for help, but not invade and do it for them.
The size of your military and for god sake, $75 billion would be made for a very sweet humanitarian package instead of blasting into. The United States has the money to win the world's iopinion through highly publicised aid campaigns and of course fairer censorship, allowing OTHER VOICES a chance to speak with policy advisors.
First, the US has always done a large portion of the world's humanitarian work, as has Canada. It hasn't made them less of a target. You can't buy world opinion.
By OTHER VOICES I assume you mean voices that agree with yours. What that has to do with whether we in Canada benefit from a large US military is beyond me.
Tulkas, you're using the might of their military and past occurences to justify why we should love this campaign?
If the US wasn't there, the english would have been so how's that. I'm english, and no tellin what power the English would have amounted in 250 years of owning North America.
Did I say that? no. I am saying the size of their military has allowed us to keep ours smaller than it would be otherwise.
That's why we created things like NATO and the UN, so that if you pick a fight with one country then you pick a fight with all of them, therefore you have to be one really crazy bastard to try and invade Canada, US or no US.
It all seemed to be working OK till one country ruined it. The one country which spends more per capita on defence than any other country--either because they are defending the world from evil, flash gordon style,
You mean the same country that helped provide the impetus to create each of those institutions? The same country and to date continues to fund each of those institutions more than any other country? The same country that provided the bulk of the military for NATO?
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Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
or because the Military-Industrial complex effectively commited a coup at some point during the Cold War.
If anyone is asserting themselves as superior its you and THATS the problem. Thats why I argue with you.
"The United States is important, Canada is not" and saying that "we belong" (as if you yourself have the right to say where 30 000 000 people belong) under the shadow [of the US].
I am not necessarily superior to you but my nation is superior to yours, undoubtedly. Which is why I say the US is important while Canada is not.
You whine about how our government official dared question your government while your government lambasts and demeans ours on a regular basis.
Who started the thread, DMB? My how you squeal and whine when the shoe is on the other foot. If you want to start a thread attacking America you had better get used to the idea of me coming in and stomping on you (if the case calls for it). If you're not prepared to have people criticize you when you say stupid things it might be best for you to scream at your wall instead of posting the thoughts for the world to see.
satchmo:
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You nor I will get an accurate account of the dead either way. Hidden or exaggerated numbers spun by both sides.
You can have what Iraq says. Surely they wouldn't play down the number of civilian casualties, would they?
I've got a lot of catching up to do. In 7 days sanctions kill 1,918 people, I'm not even to 100 civilian casualties yet in my dirty dirty warmongering! Let's see if the siege of Baghdad evens things up, eh?
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You seem to forget that it's about human lives...
Those who promote the deadly and bloody containment policy over the ouster of Saddam Hussein foreget that it's about human lives. If you gave one shit about human life in Iraq you would be supporting the coalition troops looking to end Hussein's regime and the UN oppression of the Iraqi people.
But you don't care, you're anti-Bush/war first. All other considerations are merely bullets for your weapon.
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...and the will of the Iraqi people.
Pray tell, Tulkas, what IS the will of the Iraqi people?
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Do you know for a fact that they want to be "liberated"? Did they ask to be liberated? Or do their opinions even matter to you?
I know for a fact that plenty of Iraqis are pro-war. Absolute fact. All of them? Of course not.
I am not necessarily superior to you but my nation is superior to yours, undoubtedly. Which is why I say the US is important while Canada is not.
Well, rat, I normally agree with alot of what you have to post, but I will disagree with you here. While in some ways the US is superior to Canada (military, economy-though ours is doing better right now), we are superior in other ways. We have more equal (read better) health care and social programs. We, while believing in the right of everyone to better themselves and get ahead, aren't as willing to let others fall behind. We, as a nation, are usually more open to other viewpoints, and usually go in for diplomacy more than the US. Having said all that, I also recoqnise the reasons for many of our benefits derive from having the US as a neighbour. We can promote diplomacy, because we aren't seen as a belligerent military power. Now, that' s partly because we have you to balance that. We have better health care, because we can better afford to, since we aren't paying for a monster size military. Again, because we don't have to with the US beside us.
Regardless, superiority is a very subjective position. Any nation can always point to areas where they excel and where another might not, so it becomes a moot point.
Back on track with the thread. I agree with you about this thread. Why is DMB so pissed about an American ambassador commenting on his views, when his views were regarding a natural resources minister discussing his views, (well outside of his area of responsibility I might add) and stating them as official govenment position. Even the Canadian media is only playing this up as a concern because the ambassador spoke publically and the Canadian govenment would have preferred his views to be discuss with them privately.
Huh, what? You talking to me? Must have someone else.
I was thinking "I have never heard that name before" about yours when I typed that. Just a slip. *hugs*
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we are superior in other ways. We have more equal (read better) health care and social programs.
Because you can afford to do so because you don't have to provide for your defense or the world's. You aren't expected to really contribute anything to the world, so you just spend it on yourself. You are lucky to be able to do so. It would be nice if we had the same luxury.
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We, while believing in the right of everyone to better themselves and get ahead, aren't as willing to let others fall behind.
Read above.
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We, as a nation, are usually more open to other viewpoints,
A generalized statement that could never be proven. And contradicted by a mountain of anecdotal evidence. "Damn Americans, I hate those bastards." (Carolyn Parrish).
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and usually go in for diplomacy more than the US.
What other choice do you have? Can you enforce your will on anyone? Of course not.
This isn't honor or sacrifice, it's the way it works.
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I also recoqnise the reasons for many of our benefits derive from having the US as a neighbour. We can promote diplomacy, because we aren't seen as a belligerent military power. Now, that' s partly because we have you to balance that. We have better health care, because we can better afford to, since we aren't paying for a monster size military. Again, because we don't have to with the US beside us.
I'm glad we understand each other.
So to reiterate: The United States is superior to Canada. The US is important, Canada is not.
I love you guys, but you don't matter. Just be nice and do what you're going to do, tell your pinhead politicians to shut the yaps and not bash America and we'll get along great.
I'm sorry if I'm not blowing you, but I'm not too keen on artificially inflating the importance of unimportant nations that spit on my nation right now. Before 9/11 it was cute when other nations bashed us. Now it just pisses me off.
Whe they HELL do you expect everyone in the US to say "oh, what a wonderful and vital nation Canada" is when you're representatives are calling us bastards, our president a moron and you won't help us? Grow a national nutsack already.
If you gave one shit about human life in Iraq you would be supporting the coalition troops looking to end Hussein's regime and the UN oppression of the Iraqi people.
But you don't care, you're anti-Bush/war first. All other considerations are merely bullets for your weapon.
And we're to believe that the U.S. is so concerned about human life in Iraq?
The problem with the American position is that they can't seem to make up their mind on why they're at war with Iraq. First it's to destroy weapons of mass destruction (none found yet), then it's to liberate Iraqi's from a evil dictatorship, then it's to protect the American homeland from future acts of terrorism.
No, I'm not anti-Bush. I simply believe that this war won't produce the results that he and pro-war supporters think they will. In the end, nothing much will have changed. And in the meanwhile, killing thousands of lives...Iraqi and American lives.
So to reiterate: The United States is superior to Canada. The US is important, Canada is not.
I love you guys, but you don't matter. Just be nice and do what you're going to do, tell your pinhead politicians to shut the yaps and not bash America and we'll get along great.
I'm sorry if I'm not blowing you, but I'm not too keen on artificially inflating the importance of unimportant nations that spit on my nation right now. Before 9/11 it was cute when other nations bashed us. Now it just pisses me off.
Whe they HELL do you expect everyone in the US to say "oh, what a wonderful and vital nation Canada" is when you're representatives are calling us bastards, our president a moron and you won't help us? Grow a national nutsack already.
... my nation is superior to yours, undoubtedly. Which is why I say the US is important while Canada is not.
Undoubtedly (and unqualified)... that's a stupid thing to say, groverat. How could you possibly back that up? Your conclusion couldn't follow from that even if it were true.You have no personal stake in Canadian-American relations, so you can afford to give this so little thought. Paul Celucci, however, is responsible for diplomacy with the consumer of 22.4% of US exports.
Tulkas, I didn't mean "OTHER VOICES" as those that agree with. I'd expect you'd have higher standards for me. Guess I'll have to prove you wrong. I meant other voices, other than Paul Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Cheney the men virtually behind this move and regime change, and PNAC.
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my nation is superior to yours
When you mean superior you could be correct in many things but one nation is never entirely superior to another. I laugh at your arrogance.
I had a point about Celluci being that he is an Ambassador which gives him particular duty but I think you lost that in between your "superior" ears. We've been through the proceedings as you know, and we decided not to join and you know why too. And it was perfectly okay. As for Daliwal, public opinion of Bush himself is low, he's (as I said but guess you forgot that too) representing public opinion. We all know Bush has his faults like anyone else but he's quite outspoken on issues of moral "clarity" and he had a DUTY to follow through UN because OH YAH, you forgot that too, a country must go through UN proceedings so that the world balance of interests and power does not tip.
This is for everyone's good and everyone is whom we must include here on earth since as SUPERIOR as your beloved home of the free may be, there's a world much LARGER and all together more important outside of it.
You refuse to accept past mistakes of your country that caused many civilians deaths, you never accept that sorry would ever be needed, you blast me about spitting on your politicians when they're trying to force their ideals on the rest of the world (SRC:PNAC).
No I don't expect the US to say anything in fact why didn't Celluci do just that? You're characterising me as wanting the US to love the hell out us and such but I never said that did I?
Yah sorry about the whole hating certain of your politician's aspirations to spread US ideology across the globe...I don't know maybe you love your politicians, I hate mine. I can udnerstand why you're undies are so tight about this whole needing to make sure I know where my place is, under the foot of your country...you can't accept being equal can you? You've got to be the best...its the American way.
Nonsense. It's called 'Chequebook Diplomacy' and it happens all the time.
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Pray tell, Tulkas, what IS the will of the Iraqi people?
I posit the 'will of the Iraqi People' is autonomy. That is why some Iraqis greet American troops with open arms, as they believe this invasion of their land by westerners will leed to their 'freedom' aka autonomy. I call these people the "Fools".
Then there are the other Iraqis, who greet American troops with bullets, grenades and missiles. They believe American invasion will lead to rule by yet another tyrant, whether that tyrant be America itself, or a Hussein-style dictator backed by America. Let's calls this group the 'Pragmatic Realists'.
Is that fair? They have been living under the tyranny and sanctioning (directed at disabling the tyrant's power)...I might be pretty happy if I didn't have any access to news and thought these peoepl were here to save me.
And we're to believe that the U.S. is so concerned about human life in Iraq?
Yes. Do you even pay attention to how we're waging war?
Please tell me of another time such superior power was used so hesitantly and precisely in history. Please.
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The problem with the American position is that they can't seem to make up their mind on why they're at war with Iraq.
No, that's been constant. Bush wanted Saddam neutralized and the UN wasn't willing to do it. So he's doing it. It's really that simple.
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First it's to destroy weapons of mass destruction (none found yet), then it's to liberate Iraqi's from a evil dictatorship, then it's to protect the American homeland from future acts of terrorism.
Or all 3 at the same time in addition to neutralizing Saddam.
He could've disarmed and avoided war (had 12 years to do so).
He could've left and avoided war (had 48 hours to do so).
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No, I'm not anti-Bush. I simply believe that this war won't produce the results that he and pro-war supporters think they will. In the end, nothing much will have changed. And in the meanwhile, killing thousands of lives...Iraqi and American lives.
Tell me, Tulkas, what did "peaceful" means of enforcing law against Hussein by the UN get? Hmm? 1.2 million dead Iraqis directly caused by the sanctions AND FOR WHAT?
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DMB:
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You refuse to accept past mistakes of your country that caused many civilians deaths
That's an idiotic lie.
We pushed for hard UN Sanctions that have done nothing but kill Iraqis. We've done plenty of other things around the world that weren't very nice. I'm more than willing to address the bad things the US has done.
I know you want to believe I'm just blind and think that America does no wrong, but that's not the case. I can think that America does bad things and still realize that Canada has no importance. I can do both.
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you never accept that sorry would ever be needed
You know a lot about me all of the sudden.
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you blast me about spitting on your politicians when they're trying to force their ideals on the rest of the world (SRC:PNAC).
Who ISN'T trying to "force" their ideals on the rest of the world? What a stupid thing to say.
-
Canada can do whatever Canada wants. Be pro-war, be anti-war, whatever. That's fine. Just try to keep from insulting us and bashing us for maybe 20 seconds. Keep it to one incident a month if you can.
Tell me, Tulkas, what did "peaceful" means of enforcing law against Hussein by the UN get? Hmm? 1.2 million dead Iraqis directly caused by the sanctions AND FOR WHAT?
Hmmm? Me again? You got me on your mind for some reason?
Comments
If the US wasn't there, the english would have been so how's that. I'm english, and no tellin what power the English would have amounted in 250 years of owning North America.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Geographic location alone doesn't account for our safety, neither though does the US, I know. But, the US is on the same side of the Atlantic and pacific as we, yet it didn't stop Japan from trying. Wouldn't have stopped Germany either. And it didn't stop 9/11.
That's why we created things like NATO and the UN, so that if you pick a fight with one country then you pick a fight with all of them, therefore you have to be one really crazy bastard to try and invade Canada, US or no US.
It all seemed to be working OK till one country ruined it. The one country which spends more per capita on defence than any other country--either because they are defending the world from evil, flash gordon style, or because the Military-Industrial complex effectively commited a coup at some point during the Cold War.
Anyway, these Businessmen, they don't need to work with other countries because they would rather spend a ridiculous amount of public money on their weapons (of mass destruction) and then find an excuse to use them to create more demand, so they ruin it for everyone and now every nation will need to build up an army to defend themselves, either from the US or from countries like Turkey that follow their lead.
And some people thank them for it.
Originally posted by groverat
I'll make a deal with you.
You can have what the body count would be with "peace" during the same time it takes for war. I take Iraqi civilian war casualties and you take civilian casualties of UN sanctions.
Since we won't get a running tally for you, you have the following equation: 274 x #Days
Then we'll total up civilian casualties from war.
Let's see who "wins"!
You nor I will get an accurate account of the dead either way. Hidden or exaggerated numbers spun by both sides.
But it's not about "winning" . You seem to forget that it's about human lives and the will of the Iraqi people. Do you know for a fact that they want to be "liberated"? Did they ask to be liberated? Or do their opinions even matter to you?
simple thing is that this is their way of life, these people will defend their country against outside aggressor.
In eastern europe millions lived under communist governments for almost 50 years, yet it was them who ultimately caused communism to collapse.
What happened when there was an uprising against Saddam in 91?
coalition forces did nothing to help them, world watched how these movements were brutally extinguished by Iraq's military. Thousands of people were killed, but it was convinient for democratic governments to turn another way and pretend they don't see it happening.
During this time people of Iraq needed help, they were left alone. What happened in Afghanistan during Russian invasion? US supplied them with weapons and $$, but as soon as soviet forces bulled out, these people were abandoned too.
Help these people win their freedom, when they are calling for help, but not invade and do it for them.
Originally posted by DigitalMonkeyBoy
Tulkas,
The size of your military and for god sake, $75 billion would be made for a very sweet humanitarian package instead of blasting into. The United States has the money to win the world's iopinion through highly publicised aid campaigns and of course fairer censorship, allowing OTHER VOICES a chance to speak with policy advisors.
First, the US has always done a large portion of the world's humanitarian work, as has Canada. It hasn't made them less of a target. You can't buy world opinion.
By OTHER VOICES I assume you mean voices that agree with yours. What that has to do with whether we in Canada benefit from a large US military is beyond me.
Originally posted by DigitalMonkeyBoy
Tulkas, you're using the might of their military and past occurences to justify why we should love this campaign?
If the US wasn't there, the english would have been so how's that. I'm english, and no tellin what power the English would have amounted in 250 years of owning North America.
Did I say that? no. I am saying the size of their military has allowed us to keep ours smaller than it would be otherwise.
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
That's why we created things like NATO and the UN, so that if you pick a fight with one country then you pick a fight with all of them, therefore you have to be one really crazy bastard to try and invade Canada, US or no US.
It all seemed to be working OK till one country ruined it. The one country which spends more per capita on defence than any other country--either because they are defending the world from evil, flash gordon style,
You mean the same country that helped provide the impetus to create each of those institutions? The same country and to date continues to fund each of those institutions more than any other country? The same country that provided the bulk of the military for NATO?
Originally posted by stupider...likeafox
or because the Military-Industrial complex effectively commited a coup at some point during the Cold War.
Oh, heres comes the JFK conspiracy theory!
Originally posted by DigitalMonkeyBoy
If anyone is asserting themselves as superior its you and THATS the problem. Thats why I argue with you.
"The United States is important, Canada is not" and saying that "we belong" (as if you yourself have the right to say where 30 000 000 people belong) under the shadow [of the US].
I am not necessarily superior to you but my nation is superior to yours, undoubtedly. Which is why I say the US is important while Canada is not.
You whine about how our government official dared question your government while your government lambasts and demeans ours on a regular basis.
Who started the thread, DMB? My how you squeal and whine when the shoe is on the other foot. If you want to start a thread attacking America you had better get used to the idea of me coming in and stomping on you (if the case calls for it). If you're not prepared to have people criticize you when you say stupid things it might be best for you to scream at your wall instead of posting the thoughts for the world to see.
satchmo:
You nor I will get an accurate account of the dead either way. Hidden or exaggerated numbers spun by both sides.
You can have what Iraq says. Surely they wouldn't play down the number of civilian casualties, would they?
I've got a lot of catching up to do. In 7 days sanctions kill 1,918 people, I'm not even to 100 civilian casualties yet in my dirty dirty warmongering! Let's see if the siege of Baghdad evens things up, eh?
You seem to forget that it's about human lives...
Those who promote the deadly and bloody containment policy over the ouster of Saddam Hussein foreget that it's about human lives. If you gave one shit about human life in Iraq you would be supporting the coalition troops looking to end Hussein's regime and the UN oppression of the Iraqi people.
But you don't care, you're anti-Bush/war first. All other considerations are merely bullets for your weapon.
...and the will of the Iraqi people.
Pray tell, Tulkas, what IS the will of the Iraqi people?
Do you know for a fact that they want to be "liberated"? Did they ask to be liberated? Or do their opinions even matter to you?
I know for a fact that plenty of Iraqis are pro-war. Absolute fact. All of them? Of course not.
Read.
It's a little more complicated for them than simply be pro/anti-war.
I can tell you one thing, there's nothing they want more than the removal of UN-imposed economic barriers.
Originally posted by groverat
Pray tell, Tulkas, what IS the will of the Iraqi people?
Huh, what? You talking to me? Must have someone else.
Originally posted by groverat
I am not necessarily superior to you but my nation is superior to yours, undoubtedly. Which is why I say the US is important while Canada is not.
Well, rat, I normally agree with alot of what you have to post, but I will disagree with you here. While in some ways the US is superior to Canada (military, economy-though ours is doing better right now), we are superior in other ways. We have more equal (read better) health care and social programs. We, while believing in the right of everyone to better themselves and get ahead, aren't as willing to let others fall behind. We, as a nation, are usually more open to other viewpoints, and usually go in for diplomacy more than the US. Having said all that, I also recoqnise the reasons for many of our benefits derive from having the US as a neighbour. We can promote diplomacy, because we aren't seen as a belligerent military power. Now, that' s partly because we have you to balance that. We have better health care, because we can better afford to, since we aren't paying for a monster size military. Again, because we don't have to with the US beside us.
Regardless, superiority is a very subjective position. Any nation can always point to areas where they excel and where another might not, so it becomes a moot point.
Back on track with the thread. I agree with you about this thread. Why is DMB so pissed about an American ambassador commenting on his views, when his views were regarding a natural resources minister discussing his views, (well outside of his area of responsibility I might add) and stating them as official govenment position. Even the Canadian media is only playing this up as a concern because the ambassador spoke publically and the Canadian govenment would have preferred his views to be discuss with them privately.
Some people just was an excuse to dis the US.
this:
I am not necessarily superior to you but my nation is superior to yours, undoubtedly. Which is why I say the US is important while Canada is not.
is just wrong, man...
IMHO
Huh, what? You talking to me? Must have someone else.
I was thinking "I have never heard that name before" about yours when I typed that. Just a slip. *hugs*
we are superior in other ways. We have more equal (read better) health care and social programs.
Because you can afford to do so because you don't have to provide for your defense or the world's. You aren't expected to really contribute anything to the world, so you just spend it on yourself. You are lucky to be able to do so. It would be nice if we had the same luxury.
We, while believing in the right of everyone to better themselves and get ahead, aren't as willing to let others fall behind.
Read above.
We, as a nation, are usually more open to other viewpoints,
A generalized statement that could never be proven. And contradicted by a mountain of anecdotal evidence. "Damn Americans, I hate those bastards." (Carolyn Parrish).
and usually go in for diplomacy more than the US.
What other choice do you have? Can you enforce your will on anyone? Of course not.
This isn't honor or sacrifice, it's the way it works.
I also recoqnise the reasons for many of our benefits derive from having the US as a neighbour. We can promote diplomacy, because we aren't seen as a belligerent military power. Now, that' s partly because we have you to balance that. We have better health care, because we can better afford to, since we aren't paying for a monster size military. Again, because we don't have to with the US beside us.
I'm glad we understand each other.
So to reiterate: The United States is superior to Canada. The US is important, Canada is not.
I love you guys, but you don't matter. Just be nice and do what you're going to do, tell your pinhead politicians to shut the yaps and not bash America and we'll get along great.
I'm sorry if I'm not blowing you, but I'm not too keen on artificially inflating the importance of unimportant nations that spit on my nation right now. Before 9/11 it was cute when other nations bashed us. Now it just pisses me off.
Whe they HELL do you expect everyone in the US to say "oh, what a wonderful and vital nation Canada" is when you're representatives are calling us bastards, our president a moron and you won't help us? Grow a national nutsack already.
If you gave one shit about human life in Iraq you would be supporting the coalition troops looking to end Hussein's regime and the UN oppression of the Iraqi people.
But you don't care, you're anti-Bush/war first. All other considerations are merely bullets for your weapon.
And we're to believe that the U.S. is so concerned about human life in Iraq?
The problem with the American position is that they can't seem to make up their mind on why they're at war with Iraq. First it's to destroy weapons of mass destruction (none found yet), then it's to liberate Iraqi's from a evil dictatorship, then it's to protect the American homeland from future acts of terrorism.
No, I'm not anti-Bush. I simply believe that this war won't produce the results that he and pro-war supporters think they will. In the end, nothing much will have changed. And in the meanwhile, killing thousands of lives...Iraqi and American lives.
Originally posted by groverat
So to reiterate: The United States is superior to Canada. The US is important, Canada is not.
I love you guys, but you don't matter. Just be nice and do what you're going to do, tell your pinhead politicians to shut the yaps and not bash America and we'll get along great.
I'm sorry if I'm not blowing you, but I'm not too keen on artificially inflating the importance of unimportant nations that spit on my nation right now. Before 9/11 it was cute when other nations bashed us. Now it just pisses me off.
Whe they HELL do you expect everyone in the US to say "oh, what a wonderful and vital nation Canada" is when you're representatives are calling us bastards, our president a moron and you won't help us? Grow a national nutsack already.
I love sarcasm.
... my nation is superior to yours, undoubtedly. Which is why I say the US is important while Canada is not.
Undoubtedly (and unqualified)... that's a stupid thing to say, groverat. How could you possibly back that up? Your conclusion couldn't follow from that even if it were true.You have no personal stake in Canadian-American relations, so you can afford to give this so little thought. Paul Celucci, however, is responsible for diplomacy with the consumer of 22.4% of US exports.
my nation is superior to yours
When you mean superior you could be correct in many things but one nation is never entirely superior to another. I laugh at your arrogance.
I had a point about Celluci being that he is an Ambassador which gives him particular duty but I think you lost that in between your "superior" ears.
This is for everyone's good and everyone is whom we must include here on earth since as SUPERIOR as your beloved home of the free may be, there's a world much LARGER and all together more important outside of it.
You refuse to accept past mistakes of your country that caused many civilians deaths, you never accept that sorry would ever be needed, you blast me about spitting on your politicians when they're trying to force their ideals on the rest of the world (SRC:PNAC).
No I don't expect the US to say anything in fact why didn't Celluci do just that? You're characterising me as wanting the US to love the hell out us and such but I never said that did I?
Yah sorry about the whole hating certain of your politician's aspirations to spread US ideology across the globe...I don't know maybe you love your politicians, I hate mine. I can udnerstand why you're undies are so tight about this whole needing to make sure I know where my place is, under the foot of your country...you can't accept being equal can you? You've got to be the best...its the American way.
You can't buy world opinion.
Nonsense. It's called 'Chequebook Diplomacy' and it happens all the time.
Pray tell, Tulkas, what IS the will of the Iraqi people?
I posit the 'will of the Iraqi People' is autonomy. That is why some Iraqis greet American troops with open arms, as they believe this invasion of their land by westerners will leed to their 'freedom' aka autonomy. I call these people the "Fools".
Then there are the other Iraqis, who greet American troops with bullets, grenades and missiles. They believe American invasion will lead to rule by yet another tyrant, whether that tyrant be America itself, or a Hussein-style dictator backed by America. Let's calls this group the 'Pragmatic Realists'.
I call these people the "Fools".
Is that fair? They have been living under the tyranny and sanctioning (directed at disabling the tyrant's power)...I might be pretty happy if I didn't have any access to news and thought these peoepl were here to save me.
Originally posted by satchmo
And we're to believe that the U.S. is so concerned about human life in Iraq?
Yes. Do you even pay attention to how we're waging war?
Please tell me of another time such superior power was used so hesitantly and precisely in history. Please.
The problem with the American position is that they can't seem to make up their mind on why they're at war with Iraq.
No, that's been constant. Bush wanted Saddam neutralized and the UN wasn't willing to do it. So he's doing it. It's really that simple.
First it's to destroy weapons of mass destruction (none found yet), then it's to liberate Iraqi's from a evil dictatorship, then it's to protect the American homeland from future acts of terrorism.
Or all 3 at the same time in addition to neutralizing Saddam.
He could've disarmed and avoided war (had 12 years to do so).
He could've left and avoided war (had 48 hours to do so).
No, I'm not anti-Bush. I simply believe that this war won't produce the results that he and pro-war supporters think they will. In the end, nothing much will have changed. And in the meanwhile, killing thousands of lives...Iraqi and American lives.
Tell me, Tulkas, what did "peaceful" means of enforcing law against Hussein by the UN get? Hmm? 1.2 million dead Iraqis directly caused by the sanctions AND FOR WHAT?
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DMB:
You refuse to accept past mistakes of your country that caused many civilians deaths
That's an idiotic lie.
We pushed for hard UN Sanctions that have done nothing but kill Iraqis. We've done plenty of other things around the world that weren't very nice. I'm more than willing to address the bad things the US has done.
I know you want to believe I'm just blind and think that America does no wrong, but that's not the case. I can think that America does bad things and still realize that Canada has no importance. I can do both.
you never accept that sorry would ever be needed
You know a lot about me all of the sudden.
you blast me about spitting on your politicians when they're trying to force their ideals on the rest of the world (SRC:PNAC).
Who ISN'T trying to "force" their ideals on the rest of the world? What a stupid thing to say.
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Canada can do whatever Canada wants. Be pro-war, be anti-war, whatever. That's fine. Just try to keep from insulting us and bashing us for maybe 20 seconds. Keep it to one incident a month if you can.
Originally posted by groverat
Tell me, Tulkas, what did "peaceful" means of enforcing law against Hussein by the UN get? Hmm? 1.2 million dead Iraqis directly caused by the sanctions AND FOR WHAT?
Hmmm? Me again? You got me on your mind for some reason?