US Government, NATO accuse China of Microsoft Exchange attacks

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 67
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,747member
    Also, though it’s hardly the point, I wasn’t even being political. He asked how the Chinese government can possibly take action against cyber criminals. I observed that China has police, quite effective police, and that he’s suggesting they do not.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 42 of 67
    GabyGaby Posts: 176member
    The Microsoft Exchange hack and many other attacks were caused by gangs working with the Chinese government, the Biden administration and NATO claim.

    Actually, NATO didn't claim that.   Aside from the usual crowd of the U.S., Britain and Canada, others are saying that Chinese hackers did some bad things -- but they are not attributing it to the Chinese government.

    From Reuters:

    "While a flurry of statements from Western powers represent a broad alliance, cyber experts said the lack of consequences for China beyond the U.S. indictment was conspicuous. Just a month ago, summit statements by G7 and NATO warned China and said it posed threats to the international order.

    Adam Segal, a cybersecurity expert at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York, called Monday's announcement a "successful effort to get friends and allies to attribute the action to Beijing, but not very useful without any concrete follow-up."

    Some of Monday's statements even seemed to pull their punches. While Washington and its close allies such as the United Kingdom and Canada held the Chinese state directly responsible for the hacking, others were more circumspect.

    NATO merely said that its members "acknowledge" the allegations being leveled against Beijing by the U.S., Canada, and the UK. The European Union said it was urging Chinese officials to rein in "malicious cyber activities undertaken from its territory" - a statement that left open the possibility that the Chinese government was itself innocent of directing the espionage."

    With the U.S. in full attack mode on China, it puts their allegations / assumptions into question.

    Apparently there was a hack and also a release of information to others on how to exploit it.  But there does not seem to be a consensus that it was initiated and supported by the Chinese government.

    But, regardless, if the hackers were operating independently in China, it is up to China to shut them down -- at least.
    Or, as the EU put it:
    "The European Union said it was urging Chinese officials to rein in "malicious cyber activities undertaken from its territory""



    The fact remains that in such a country as China that is so authoritarian, and with such strong firewall and censorship capabilities these cyberattacks are unlikely. When you consider that every byte incoming/outgoing is monitored, and that people are rounded up and arrested for so much as sneezing in the wrong direction, let alone for a crime so grave as expressing an opinion that doesn’t toe the party line.  It is almost impossible for even an individual to commit these crimes and harvest so much data, let alone for innumerable groups to engage in these activities and remain unknown. Which is why it’s dubious that anyone could manage without the state being actively involved. Not to mention the type of IP and tech they’re stealing is clearly beneficial to the government.  As for other countries not calling them out specifically, for one it’s called diplomacy, and secondly they’re scared shitless of being on the receiving end of china’s ire themselves. And reading between the lines of what nato and the E.U said, it’s fairly obvious that they acknowledge the Chinese state to be involved. If this were anywhere other than China or Russia, it would have been declared an act of war and they’d have gone in guns blazing. In truth sadly, I think that’s the only language they’ll understand. Because they keep nipping at people to see how far they can push and it’s not going to stop. 
    edited July 20 tmaymuthuk_vanalingamgatorguywatto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,281member
    America's loose network or private and privately controlled data hubs makes for prime hunting grounds for international hackers.   They can pick and choose which to hack based on both the value of the data and how well it is protected.   Meanwhile, our government has little or no knowledge of the data nor how it is protected.

    China though appears to be going in the opposite direction.   From Reuters:

    THE FIFTH FACTOR

    Plans for a state-controlled data market have been in the works for years.

    In a closed-door 2017 meeting, President Xi Jinping urged policymakers to research global data governance and "propose a Chinese plan" for "opening, transacting, and confirming the ownership and property protection rights for data."

    The project was supercharged in April 2020, when a State Council document declared data would be the fifth "factor of production" - on par with labour, technology, land and capital in terms of national economic resources.

    That was quickly followed by the draft Data Security Law, which mandates mass auditing of big data.


    So China sees data as a national asset -- on par with "labour, technology, land and capital" where the central government oversees it and protects it.  It sounds like they have a plan.

    Do we? 
    (Unfortunately, bluster and outrage are not a plan)



    edited July 20
  • Reply 44 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,430member
    America's loose network or private and privately controlled data hubs makes for prime hunting grounds for international hackers.   They can pick and choose which to hack based on both the value of the data and how well it is protected.   Meanwhile, our government has little or no knowledge of the data nor how it is protected.

    China though appears to be going in the opposite direction.   From Reuters:

    THE FIFTH FACTOR

    Plans for a state-controlled data market have been in the works for years.

    In a closed-door 2017 meeting, President Xi Jinping urged policymakers to research global data governance and "propose a Chinese plan" for "opening, transacting, and confirming the ownership and property protection rights for data."

    The project was supercharged in April 2020, when a State Council document declared data would be the fifth "factor of production" - on par with labour, technology, land and capital in terms of national economic resources.

    That was quickly followed by the draft Data Security Law, which mandates mass auditing of big data.


    So China sees data as a national asset -- on par with "labour, technology, land and capital" where the central government oversees it and protects it.  It sounds like they have a plan.

    Do we? 
    (Unfortunately, bluster and outrage are not a plan)



    I'm thinking that you misread what NATO stated in its actual press release;

    https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_185863.htm

    1.         We observe with increasing concern that cyber threats to the security of the Alliance are complex, destructive, coercive, and becoming ever more frequent. This has been recently illustrated by ransomware incidents and other malicious cyber activity, targeting our critical infrastructure and democratic institutions, as well as exploiting weaknesses in hardware and software supply chains.

    2.         We condemn such malicious cyber activities which are designed to destabilize and harm Euro-Atlantic security and disrupt the daily lives of our citizens. We use NATO as a platform for political consultations, to share concerns about malicious cyber activities, to exchange national approaches and responses, as well as to consider possible collective responses. Reaffirming NATO’s defensive mandate, the Alliance is determined to employ the full range of capabilities, as applicable, at all times to actively deter, defend against, and counter the full spectrum of cyber threats, in accordance with international law. NATO will continue to adapt to the evolving cyber threat landscape, which is affected by both state and non-state actors, including state-sponsored. We remain committed to uphold strong national cyber defences, including through full implementation of NATO’s Cyber Defence Pledge.

    3.         We stand in solidarity with all those who have been affected by recent malicious cyber activities including the Microsoft Exchange Server compromise. Such malicious cyber activities undermine security, confidence and stability in cyberspace. We acknowledge national statements by Allies, such as Canada, the United Kingdom, and the United States, attributing responsibility for the Microsoft Exchange Server compromise to the People’s Republic of China. In line with our recent Brussels Summit Communiqué, we call on all States, including China, to uphold their international commitments and obligations and to act responsibly in the international system, including in cyberspace. We also reiterate our willingness to maintain a constructive dialogue with China based on our interests, on areas of relevance to the Alliance such as cyber threats, and on common challenges.  

    4.         We promote a free, open, peaceful and secure cyberspace, and pursue efforts to enhance stability and reduce the risk of conflict by promoting respect for international law and the voluntary norms of responsible state behaviour in cyberspace, as recognized by all member states of the United Nations. We are working together as an Alliance and with like-minded partners to address these challenges. All States have an important role to play in promoting and upholding these voluntary norms of responsible state behaviour.


    Seems that what China is best at, is uniting the West against China itself, and its authoritarian pals, and fucking up its COVID Diplomacy plans.

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/China-s-vaccine-diplomacy-fails-to-win-ASEAN-support-survey

    Japan was the most trusted country in the region, with 67.1% saying they expected it to act for the global good. The U.S. and the EU both saw marked increases in perceptions of their trustworthiness compared with the previous year, with 48.3% and 51% of respondents, respectively, saying they expected them to act in the global interest.

    "The region's trust deficit in China is trending upwards. China is the only major power that has increased its negative ratings, from 60.4% in 2020 to 63.0% in 2021. China's predominant economic and political influence in the region has created more awe than affection," the report says. "The majority worry that such economic heft, combined with China's military power, could be used to threaten their country's interest and sovereignty."


    https://www.axios.com/china-covid-vaccine-fail-spread-d2a4e465-ef82-4225-9cc0-4fc9b57f8501.html

    Multiple countries that eagerly inoculated their people with China's COVID vaccines face devastating new case surges.

    Why it matters: This revelation undermines China’s vaccine diplomacy, which Beijing has prioritized in the developing world to win influence and commercial deals.

    • China loved the contrast with the U.S., which has been slow in allocating surplus vaccines abroad.
    • Now, developing countries are likely to look increasingly to the West, and not to Beijing, for vaccines.

    "In the Seychelles, Chile, Bahrain and Mongolia, 50 to 68 percent of the populations have been fully inoculated, outpacing the United States," the N.Y. Times reports.

    • "All four ranked among the top 10 countries with the worst Covid outbreaks as recently as last week." 
    • "And all four are mostly using shots made by two Chinese vaccine makers, Sinopharm and Sinovac Biotech."
    Remember when you were all in on China's Vax? I do.


    The response that I gleaned from that NATO statement is what is called "a shot across the bow", 

    As may be expected, a shot across the bow is derived from a very real naval war tactic from the 1800s that was commonly used in the British navy. A ship may fire a harmless cannon shot across the end of an opposing ship to signal willingness to engage in a battle unless the ship under fire surrenders.
    China has been warned. I have no idea what will happen next, but it's apparent that China has control over individuals within its own borders. Sure looks like China is providing State support to, if not State sponsored, hackers.

    I'll make more popcorn.


    edited July 20 Gabywatto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 67
    https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/u-s-says-china-to-blame-for-microsoft-exchange-email-hack/

    Dmitri Alperovitch (Russian: Дмитрий Михайлович Альперович; born 1980) is a Russian-born American computer security industry executive.
    The puzzle is solved. 

    But even he admitted that this may not have been a government sponsored operation.
    The DOJ indictment accuses four local Hainan government official of stealing business secrets to facilitate Chinese companies to do trade with US. LOL This looks nothing like the malicious Ransomware. Or the plot of erasing your Western Digital storage device. But China haters always make China look like evil and associate everything to CCP. I think Biden administration unlike the Republicans is doing things scientifically by being very clear what really happened. This is what I said many time here truths should be based on facts instead of conspiracy theory. 
  • Reply 46 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,430member
    https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/u-s-says-china-to-blame-for-microsoft-exchange-email-hack/

    Dmitri Alperovitch (Russian: Дмитрий Михайлович Альперович; born 1980) is a Russian-born American computer security industry executive.
    The puzzle is solved. 

    But even he admitted that this may not have been a government sponsored operation.
    The DOJ indictment accuses four local Hainan government official of stealing business secrets to facilitate Chinese companies to do trade with US. LOL This looks nothing like the malicious Ransomware. Or the plot of erasing your Western Digital storage device. But China haters always make China look like evil and associate everything to CCP. I think Biden administration unlike the Republicans is doing things scientifically by being very clear what really happened. This is what I said many time here truths should be based on facts instead of conspiracy theory. 
    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four-chinese-nationals-working-ministry-state-security-charged-global-computer-intrusion

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Monday, July 19, 2021

    Four Chinese Nationals Working with the Ministry of State Security Charged with Global Computer Intrusion Campaign Targeting Intellectual Property and Confidential Business Information, Including Infectious Disease Research

    Indictment Alleges Three Defendants Were Officers in the Hainan State Security Department (HSSD), a provincial arm of China’s Ministry of State Security (MSS)


    The conspiracy’s hacking campaign targeted victims in the United States, Austria, Cambodia, Canada, Germany, Indonesia, Malaysia, Norway, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Switzerland and the United Kingdom. Targeted industries included, among others, aviation, defense, education, government, health care, biopharmaceutical and maritime. Stolen trade secrets and confidential business information included, among other things, sensitive technologies used for submersibles and autonomous vehicles, specialty chemical formulas, commercial aircraft servicing, proprietary genetic-sequencing technology and data, and foreign information to support China’s efforts to secure contracts for state-owned enterprises within the targeted country (e.g., large-scale high-speed railway development projects). At research institutes and universities, the conspiracy targeted infectious-disease research related to Ebola, MERS, HIV/AIDS, Marburg and tularemia.



    It is so much worse when you actually have the original source.

    The indictment;

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1412916/download

    The Wanted Poster;

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1412921/download

    On May 28, 2021, a federal grand jury in the United States District Court for the Southern District of California returned an indictment against four People’s Republic of China (PRC) citizens for their alleged roles in a long running campaign of computer network operations targeting trade secrets, intellectual property, and other high value information from companies, universities, research institutes, and governmental entities in the United States and abroad, as well as multiple foreign governments. The indictment alleges that Zhu Yunmin, Wu Shurong, Ding Xiaoyang, and Cheng Qingmin targeted the following sectors: aerospace/aviation, biomedical, defense industrial base, healthcare, manufacturing, maritime, research institutes, transportation (rail and shipping), and virus research from 2012 to 2018, on behalf of the PRC Ministry of State Security. Additionally, the indictment alleges the use of front companies by the PRC Ministry of State Security to conduct cyber espionage.



    edited July 20
  • Reply 47 of 67
    tmay said:
    https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/u-s-says-china-to-blame-for-microsoft-exchange-email-hack/

    Dmitri Alperovitch (Russian: Дмитрий Михайлович Альперович; born 1980) is a Russian-born American computer security industry executive.
    The puzzle is solved. 

    But even he admitted that this may not have been a government sponsored operation.
    The DOJ indictment accuses four local Hainan government official of stealing business secrets to facilitate Chinese companies to do trade with US. LOL This looks nothing like the malicious Ransomware. Or the plot of erasing your Western Digital storage device. But China haters always make China look like evil and associate everything to CCP. I think Biden administration unlike the Republicans is doing things scientifically by being very clear what really happened. This is what I said many time here truths should be based on facts instead of conspiracy theory. 
    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four-chinese-nationals-working-ministry-state-security-charged-global-computer-intrusion

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Monday, July 19, 2021

    Four Chinese Nationals Working with the Ministry of State Security Charged with Global Computer Intrusion Campaign Targeting Intellectual Property and Confidential Business Information, Including Infectious Disease Research

    Indictment Alleges Three Defendants Were Officers in the Hainan State Security Department (HSSD), a provincial arm of China’s Ministry of State Security (MSS)

    It is so much worse when you actually have the original source.

    The indictment;

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1412916/download

    The Wanted Poster;

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1412921/download

    On May 28, 2021, a federal grand jury in the United States District Court for the Southern District of California returned an indictment against four People’s Republic of China (PRC) citizens for their alleged roles in a long running campaign of computer network operations targeting trade secrets, intellectual property, and other high value information from companies, universities, research institutes, and governmental entities in the United States and abroad, as well as multiple foreign governments. The indictment alleges that Zhu Yunmin, Wu Shurong, Ding Xiaoyang, and Cheng Qingmin targeted the following sectors: aerospace/aviation, biomedical, defense industrial base, healthcare, manufacturing, maritime, research institutes, transportation (rail and shipping), and virus research from 2012 to 2018, on behalf of the PRC Ministry of State Security. Additionally, the indictment alleges the use of front companies by the PRC Ministry of State Security to conduct cyber espionage.



    I believe every country that has the capability is doing this including US government. 
  • Reply 48 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,430member
    tmay said:
    https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/u-s-says-china-to-blame-for-microsoft-exchange-email-hack/

    Dmitri Alperovitch (Russian: Дмитрий Михайлович Альперович; born 1980) is a Russian-born American computer security industry executive.
    The puzzle is solved. 

    But even he admitted that this may not have been a government sponsored operation.
    The DOJ indictment accuses four local Hainan government official of stealing business secrets to facilitate Chinese companies to do trade with US. LOL This looks nothing like the malicious Ransomware. Or the plot of erasing your Western Digital storage device. But China haters always make China look like evil and associate everything to CCP. I think Biden administration unlike the Republicans is doing things scientifically by being very clear what really happened. This is what I said many time here truths should be based on facts instead of conspiracy theory. 
    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four-chinese-nationals-working-ministry-state-security-charged-global-computer-intrusion

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Monday, July 19, 2021

    Four Chinese Nationals Working with the Ministry of State Security Charged with Global Computer Intrusion Campaign Targeting Intellectual Property and Confidential Business Information, Including Infectious Disease Research

    Indictment Alleges Three Defendants Were Officers in the Hainan State Security Department (HSSD), a provincial arm of China’s Ministry of State Security (MSS)

    It is so much worse when you actually have the original source.

    The indictment;

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1412916/download

    The Wanted Poster;

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1412921/download

    On May 28, 2021, a federal grand jury in the United States District Court for the Southern District of California returned an indictment against four People’s Republic of China (PRC) citizens for their alleged roles in a long running campaign of computer network operations targeting trade secrets, intellectual property, and other high value information from companies, universities, research institutes, and governmental entities in the United States and abroad, as well as multiple foreign governments. The indictment alleges that Zhu Yunmin, Wu Shurong, Ding Xiaoyang, and Cheng Qingmin targeted the following sectors: aerospace/aviation, biomedical, defense industrial base, healthcare, manufacturing, maritime, research institutes, transportation (rail and shipping), and virus research from 2012 to 2018, on behalf of the PRC Ministry of State Security. Additionally, the indictment alleges the use of front companies by the PRC Ministry of State Security to conduct cyber espionage.



    I believe every country that has the capability is doing this including US government. 
     
    So you agree with the charges then?
    edited July 20
  • Reply 49 of 67
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/u-s-says-china-to-blame-for-microsoft-exchange-email-hack/

    Dmitri Alperovitch (Russian: Дмитрий Михайлович Альперович; born 1980) is a Russian-born American computer security industry executive.
    The puzzle is solved. 

    But even he admitted that this may not have been a government sponsored operation.
    The DOJ indictment accuses four local Hainan government official of stealing business secrets to facilitate Chinese companies to do trade with US. LOL This looks nothing like the malicious Ransomware. Or the plot of erasing your Western Digital storage device. But China haters always make China look like evil and associate everything to CCP. I think Biden administration unlike the Republicans is doing things scientifically by being very clear what really happened. This is what I said many time here truths should be based on facts instead of conspiracy theory. 
    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four-chinese-nationals-working-ministry-state-security-charged-global-computer-intrusion

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Monday, July 19, 2021

    Four Chinese Nationals Working with the Ministry of State Security Charged with Global Computer Intrusion Campaign Targeting Intellectual Property and Confidential Business Information, Including Infectious Disease Research

    Indictment Alleges Three Defendants Were Officers in the Hainan State Security Department (HSSD), a provincial arm of China’s Ministry of State Security (MSS)

    It is so much worse when you actually have the original source.

    The indictment;

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1412916/download

    The Wanted Poster;

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1412921/download

    On May 28, 2021, a federal grand jury in the United States District Court for the Southern District of California returned an indictment against four People’s Republic of China (PRC) citizens for their alleged roles in a long running campaign of computer network operations targeting trade secrets, intellectual property, and other high value information from companies, universities, research institutes, and governmental entities in the United States and abroad, as well as multiple foreign governments. The indictment alleges that Zhu Yunmin, Wu Shurong, Ding Xiaoyang, and Cheng Qingmin targeted the following sectors: aerospace/aviation, biomedical, defense industrial base, healthcare, manufacturing, maritime, research institutes, transportation (rail and shipping), and virus research from 2012 to 2018, on behalf of the PRC Ministry of State Security. Additionally, the indictment alleges the use of front companies by the PRC Ministry of State Security to conduct cyber espionage.



    I believe every country that has the capability is doing this including US government. 
     
    So you agree with the charges then? I have already said in post 45. 
  • Reply 50 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,430member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    https://ktla.com/news/nationworld/u-s-says-china-to-blame-for-microsoft-exchange-email-hack/

    Dmitri Alperovitch (Russian: Дмитрий Михайлович Альперович; born 1980) is a Russian-born American computer security industry executive.
    The puzzle is solved. 

    But even he admitted that this may not have been a government sponsored operation.
    The DOJ indictment accuses four local Hainan government official of stealing business secrets to facilitate Chinese companies to do trade with US. LOL This looks nothing like the malicious Ransomware. Or the plot of erasing your Western Digital storage device. But China haters always make China look like evil and associate everything to CCP. I think Biden administration unlike the Republicans is doing things scientifically by being very clear what really happened. This is what I said many time here truths should be based on facts instead of conspiracy theory. 
    https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/four-chinese-nationals-working-ministry-state-security-charged-global-computer-intrusion

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Monday, July 19, 2021

    Four Chinese Nationals Working with the Ministry of State Security Charged with Global Computer Intrusion Campaign Targeting Intellectual Property and Confidential Business Information, Including Infectious Disease Research

    Indictment Alleges Three Defendants Were Officers in the Hainan State Security Department (HSSD), a provincial arm of China’s Ministry of State Security (MSS)

    It is so much worse when you actually have the original source.

    The indictment;

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1412916/download

    The Wanted Poster;

    https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1412921/download

    On May 28, 2021, a federal grand jury in the United States District Court for the Southern District of California returned an indictment against four People’s Republic of China (PRC) citizens for their alleged roles in a long running campaign of computer network operations targeting trade secrets, intellectual property, and other high value information from companies, universities, research institutes, and governmental entities in the United States and abroad, as well as multiple foreign governments. The indictment alleges that Zhu Yunmin, Wu Shurong, Ding Xiaoyang, and Cheng Qingmin targeted the following sectors: aerospace/aviation, biomedical, defense industrial base, healthcare, manufacturing, maritime, research institutes, transportation (rail and shipping), and virus research from 2012 to 2018, on behalf of the PRC Ministry of State Security. Additionally, the indictment alleges the use of front companies by the PRC Ministry of State Security to conduct cyber espionage.



    I believe every country that has the capability is doing this including US government. 
     
    So you agree with the charges then? I have already said in post 45. 
     

    So, I'm guessing you don't believe any of these indictments, and you think Biden is going to go easier on the PRC?

    BTW, it's okay to out yourself as a citizen of the PRC. I'm so used to PRC trolls around here anyway.
    edited July 20
  • Reply 51 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,281member
    tmay said:
    America's loose network or private and privately controlled data hubs makes for prime hunting grounds for international hackers.   They can pick and choose which to hack based on both the value of the data and how well it is protected.   Meanwhile, our government has little or no knowledge of the data nor how it is protected.

    China though appears to be going in the opposite direction.   From Reuters:

    THE FIFTH FACTOR

    Plans for a state-controlled data market have been in the works for years.

    In a closed-door 2017 meeting, President Xi Jinping urged policymakers to research global data governance and "propose a Chinese plan" for "opening, transacting, and confirming the ownership and property protection rights for data."

    The project was supercharged in April 2020, when a State Council document declared data would be the fifth "factor of production" - on par with labour, technology, land and capital in terms of national economic resources.

    That was quickly followed by the draft Data Security Law, which mandates mass auditing of big data.


    So China sees data as a national asset -- on par with "labour, technology, land and capital" where the central government oversees it and protects it.  It sounds like they have a plan.

    Do we? 
    (Unfortunately, bluster and outrage are not a plan)



    I'm thinking that you misread what NATO stated in its actual press release;

    ....
    I'll make more popcorn.


    Funny, the post you're responding to never mentioned anything about NATO.  But it sure set you off...

  • Reply 52 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,281member
    tmay said:
    America's loose network or private and privately controlled data hubs makes for prime hunting grounds for international hackers.   They can pick and choose which to hack based on both the value of the data and how well it is protected.   Meanwhile, our government has little or no knowledge of the data nor how it is protected.

    China though appears to be going in the opposite direction.   From Reuters:

    THE FIFTH FACTOR

    Plans for a state-controlled data market have been in the works for years.

    In a closed-door 2017 meeting, President Xi Jinping urged policymakers to research global data governance and "propose a Chinese plan" for "opening, transacting, and confirming the ownership and property protection rights for data."

    The project was supercharged in April 2020, when a State Council document declared data would be the fifth "factor of production" - on par with labour, technology, land and capital in terms of national economic resources.

    That was quickly followed by the draft Data Security Law, which mandates mass auditing of big data.


    So China sees data as a national asset -- on par with "labour, technology, land and capital" where the central government oversees it and protects it.  It sounds like they have a plan.

    Do we? 
    (Unfortunately, bluster and outrage are not a plan)



    I'm thinking that you misread what NATO stated in its actual press release;

    ....

    I'll make more popcorn.


    Funny, the post you responded to neither said nor suggested anything about NATO.   But it triggered you to go on another "I hate China", "China is evil" rampage -- again...

    Sorry.

  • Reply 53 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,430member
    tmay said:
    America's loose network or private and privately controlled data hubs makes for prime hunting grounds for international hackers.   They can pick and choose which to hack based on both the value of the data and how well it is protected.   Meanwhile, our government has little or no knowledge of the data nor how it is protected.

    China though appears to be going in the opposite direction.   From Reuters:

    THE FIFTH FACTOR

    Plans for a state-controlled data market have been in the works for years.

    In a closed-door 2017 meeting, President Xi Jinping urged policymakers to research global data governance and "propose a Chinese plan" for "opening, transacting, and confirming the ownership and property protection rights for data."

    The project was supercharged in April 2020, when a State Council document declared data would be the fifth "factor of production" - on par with labour, technology, land and capital in terms of national economic resources.

    That was quickly followed by the draft Data Security Law, which mandates mass auditing of big data.


    So China sees data as a national asset -- on par with "labour, technology, land and capital" where the central government oversees it and protects it.  It sounds like they have a plan.

    Do we? 
    (Unfortunately, bluster and outrage are not a plan)



    I'm thinking that you misread what NATO stated in its actual press release;

    ....

    I'll make more popcorn.


    Funny, the post you responded to neither said nor suggested anything about NATO.   But it triggered you to go on another "I hate China", "China is evil" rampage -- again...

    Sorry.

    You came into this conversation rather late, so go back much earlier. 

    If I'm going to be blamed for anything, it should be for adding information derogative to your Wholesome China narrative;'

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/20/world/asia/china-biden.html?referringSource=articleShare

    So, Biden has angered China.

    Ouch!

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-21/japan-ambassador-yamagami-australia-china/100312044

    Japan's ambassador in Canberra has firmly backed the Federal Government's approach to China, saying he "applauds" the way Australia has resisted economic pressure from Beijing.

    Shingo Yamagami also rejected suggestions that Japan has managed ties with the emerging superpower more skilfully than Australia, saying his government was "struggling every day" to manage its relationship with China.

    Speaking to the National Press Club in Canberra, Mr Yamagami said the relationship between Japan and Australia had undergone an "astonishing" transformation and the two countries now shared close strategic ties.

    He made a clear reference to the series of trade sanctions which China's government has imposed on Australia as the two countries continue to clash over the COVID-19 outbreak, human rights abuses, foreign investment and cyber-attacks.

    "Australia is not walking alone," he said.

    "I applaud the way Australia has faced up to tremendous pressures in a consistent, principled and resilient manner. 

    "Japan fully supports Australia's efforts to solve the ongoing disputes through dialogue in accordance with international laws."



    another Ouch!
    edited July 21
  • Reply 54 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,281member
    It's scary how our nation can be brought to its knees so easily.   And nobody -- except the nation and its people pay a price.   Corporations protect themselves -- but not our data and infrastructure that depend on them.

    In the scheme of things, this was a minor blip.  But it shows what is possible.

    Several major websites briefly go down in widespread internet outage

    Published Thu, Jul 22 202112:18 PM EDTUpdated 1 Min Ago

    Akamai, a CDN, which helps data move around the internet, said on its website earlier on Thursday that it was investigating “an emerging issue with the Edge DNS service.”

    Oracle, a cloud service provider, had also pointed to Akamai as the source of the issue which impacted some Oracle cloud properties. But Oracle said resources within its own cloud service are not impacted by the incident.

    The Domain Name System is like a phone book for websites. The technology figures out the right IP addresses to use when people try to go to individual websites. The Edge DNS service from Akamai takes care of this work for apps and websites and protects against distributed denial-of service, or DDoS, attacks.



  • Reply 55 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,430member
    tmay said:
    America's loose network or private and privately controlled data hubs makes for prime hunting grounds for international hackers.   They can pick and choose which to hack based on both the value of the data and how well it is protected.   Meanwhile, our government has little or no knowledge of the data nor how it is protected.

    China though appears to be going in the opposite direction.   From Reuters:

    THE FIFTH FACTOR

    Plans for a state-controlled data market have been in the works for years.

    In a closed-door 2017 meeting, President Xi Jinping urged policymakers to research global data governance and "propose a Chinese plan" for "opening, transacting, and confirming the ownership and property protection rights for data."

    The project was supercharged in April 2020, when a State Council document declared data would be the fifth "factor of production" - on par with labour, technology, land and capital in terms of national economic resources.

    That was quickly followed by the draft Data Security Law, which mandates mass auditing of big data.


    So China sees data as a national asset -- on par with "labour, technology, land and capital" where the central government oversees it and protects it.  It sounds like they have a plan.

    Do we? 
    (Unfortunately, bluster and outrage are not a plan)



    I'm thinking that you misread what NATO stated in its actual press release;

    ....

    I'll make more popcorn.


    Funny, the post you responded to neither said nor suggested anything about NATO.   But it triggered you to go on another "I hate China", "China is evil" rampage -- again...

    Sorry.

    Hey, look what your PRC pal's have been up to;

    https://www.propublica.org/article/operation-fox-hunt-how-china-exports-repression-using-a-network-of-spies-hidden-in-plain-sight

    On the hunt again, the cop from Wuhan rolled into New Jersey on a secret reconnaissance mission.

    Hu Ji watched the suburban landscape glide past the highway. He was in his early 40s, about 6-foot-1, smooth and confident-looking. His cases had led from Fiji to France to Mexico, making headlines back home. The work was riskier here; in fact, it was illegal. But he knew the turf. He’d identified himself as a Chinese police officer on his tourist visa, and the Americans hadn’t given him any trouble. Sometimes, it was best to hide in plain sight.

    Hu’s driver took an exit into a wooded subdivision, cruising by big homes set back from the two-lane road that wound through one of the country’s wealthiest enclaves. The driver was a new recruit, a boyish-looking Chinese immigrant in his late 20s who lived in Queens and called himself Johnny. Johnny’s uncle in Houston had been a target of Hu’s covert team. Two months earlier, they had “persuaded” the uncle, a former chief accountant for a provincial aviation agency, to return to China to stand trial for alleged crimes. Hu had essentially offered a brutal deal to Johnny and his relatives: If you want to help your family, help us destroy someone else’s.

    So in September 2016, Johnny became an indentured spy. He’d already done surveillance to prepare for this visit. Stopping the car, Johnny pointed out the location. The cop surveyed the large lawn, the trees flanking a brick path, the two-story house behind bushes.

    Don’t tell anyone you brought me here, he said.

    But, but, peace loving....
    edited July 22
  • Reply 56 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,281member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    America's loose network or private and privately controlled data hubs makes for prime hunting grounds for international hackers.   They can pick and choose which to hack based on both the value of the data and how well it is protected.   Meanwhile, our government has little or no knowledge of the data nor how it is protected.

    China though appears to be going in the opposite direction.   From Reuters:

    THE FIFTH FACTOR

    Plans for a state-controlled data market have been in the works for years.

    In a closed-door 2017 meeting, President Xi Jinping urged policymakers to research global data governance and "propose a Chinese plan" for "opening, transacting, and confirming the ownership and property protection rights for data."

    The project was supercharged in April 2020, when a State Council document declared data would be the fifth "factor of production" - on par with labour, technology, land and capital in terms of national economic resources.

    That was quickly followed by the draft Data Security Law, which mandates mass auditing of big data.


    So China sees data as a national asset -- on par with "labour, technology, land and capital" where the central government oversees it and protects it.  It sounds like they have a plan.

    Do we? 
    (Unfortunately, bluster and outrage are not a plan)



    I'm thinking that you misread what NATO stated in its actual press release;

    ....

    I'll make more popcorn.


    Funny, the post you responded to neither said nor suggested anything about NATO.   But it triggered you to go on another "I hate China", "China is evil" rampage -- again...

    Sorry.

    Hey, look what your PRC pal's have been up to;

    https://www.propublica.org/article/operation-fox-hunt-how-china-exports-repression-using-a-network-of-spies-hidden-in-plain-sight

    On the hunt again, the cop from Wuhan rolled into New Jersey on a secret reconnaissance mission.

    Hu Ji watched the suburban landscape glide past the highway. He was in his early 40s, about 6-foot-1, smooth and confident-looking. His cases had led from Fiji to France to Mexico, making headlines back home. The work was riskier here; in fact, it was illegal. But he knew the turf. He’d identified himself as a Chinese police officer on his tourist visa, and the Americans hadn’t given him any trouble. Sometimes, it was best to hide in plain sight.

    Hu’s driver took an exit into a wooded subdivision, cruising by big homes set back from the two-lane road that wound through one of the country’s wealthiest enclaves. The driver was a new recruit, a boyish-looking Chinese immigrant in his late 20s who lived in Queens and called himself Johnny. Johnny’s uncle in Houston had been a target of Hu’s covert team. Two months earlier, they had “persuaded” the uncle, a former chief accountant for a provincial aviation agency, to return to China to stand trial for alleged crimes. Hu had essentially offered a brutal deal to Johnny and his relatives: If you want to help your family, help us destroy someone else’s.

    So in September 2016, Johnny became an indentured spy. He’d already done surveillance to prepare for this visit. Stopping the car, Johnny pointed out the location. The cop surveyed the large lawn, the trees flanking a brick path, the two-story house behind bushes.

    Don’t tell anyone you brought me here, he said.

    But, but, peace loving....

    You seem to be trying to turn ai into an extension and tool of your hate of anything and everything Chinese.
  • Reply 57 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,430member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    America's loose network or private and privately controlled data hubs makes for prime hunting grounds for international hackers.   They can pick and choose which to hack based on both the value of the data and how well it is protected.   Meanwhile, our government has little or no knowledge of the data nor how it is protected.

    China though appears to be going in the opposite direction.   From Reuters:

    THE FIFTH FACTOR

    Plans for a state-controlled data market have been in the works for years.

    In a closed-door 2017 meeting, President Xi Jinping urged policymakers to research global data governance and "propose a Chinese plan" for "opening, transacting, and confirming the ownership and property protection rights for data."

    The project was supercharged in April 2020, when a State Council document declared data would be the fifth "factor of production" - on par with labour, technology, land and capital in terms of national economic resources.

    That was quickly followed by the draft Data Security Law, which mandates mass auditing of big data.


    So China sees data as a national asset -- on par with "labour, technology, land and capital" where the central government oversees it and protects it.  It sounds like they have a plan.

    Do we? 
    (Unfortunately, bluster and outrage are not a plan)



    I'm thinking that you misread what NATO stated in its actual press release;

    ....

    I'll make more popcorn.


    Funny, the post you responded to neither said nor suggested anything about NATO.   But it triggered you to go on another "I hate China", "China is evil" rampage -- again...

    Sorry.

    Hey, look what your PRC pal's have been up to;

    https://www.propublica.org/article/operation-fox-hunt-how-china-exports-repression-using-a-network-of-spies-hidden-in-plain-sight

    On the hunt again, the cop from Wuhan rolled into New Jersey on a secret reconnaissance mission.

    Hu Ji watched the suburban landscape glide past the highway. He was in his early 40s, about 6-foot-1, smooth and confident-looking. His cases had led from Fiji to France to Mexico, making headlines back home. The work was riskier here; in fact, it was illegal. But he knew the turf. He’d identified himself as a Chinese police officer on his tourist visa, and the Americans hadn’t given him any trouble. Sometimes, it was best to hide in plain sight.

    Hu’s driver took an exit into a wooded subdivision, cruising by big homes set back from the two-lane road that wound through one of the country’s wealthiest enclaves. The driver was a new recruit, a boyish-looking Chinese immigrant in his late 20s who lived in Queens and called himself Johnny. Johnny’s uncle in Houston had been a target of Hu’s covert team. Two months earlier, they had “persuaded” the uncle, a former chief accountant for a provincial aviation agency, to return to China to stand trial for alleged crimes. Hu had essentially offered a brutal deal to Johnny and his relatives: If you want to help your family, help us destroy someone else’s.

    So in September 2016, Johnny became an indentured spy. He’d already done surveillance to prepare for this visit. Stopping the car, Johnny pointed out the location. The cop surveyed the large lawn, the trees flanking a brick path, the two-story house behind bushes.

    Don’t tell anyone you brought me here, he said.

    But, but, peace loving....

    You seem to be trying to turn ai into an extension and tool of your hate of anything and everything Chinese.
    You postings appear to be an actual extension of the PRC.

    I have never implied, or stated, that I hate everything Chinese. You decided to label me a China hater because you can't argue facts to counter China's Militarism, and Authoritarianism.

    Sad..
    gatorguy
  • Reply 58 of 67
    6502 said:
    Microsoft OS is the worst OS in the world. Why these people don't know this fact? IBM PC users have been buying anti-virus software for decades. This is a necessity for Windows users. Why? Because hackers have been inflicting harm on IBM PC users. Do we execute them? I have not users any anti-virus on my Macs. I have received many spam emails trying to steal from me. Do we execute the senders? 
    IBM got out of the PC business 16 years ago. Windows 10 is actually quite usable. I don't use any anti-virus software except for the built-in Windows Defender.

    "I don't use any anti-virus software except for the built in".
    You must love Microsoft a lot to browse the internet and install appslications utilities etc from the internet using only Defender.
    For the rest of the world reading this thread, that is bad advice.  You are taking demonstrably and quantifiably taking a significant risk relying on Defender only. 
    I've been using Defender alone for as long as it's been a thing on Windows.  I've never had a virus or Trojan on any of the multiple machines on which this has been the case.

    Windows Defender is perfectly adequate for most people with the sense to understand how such things get onto a machine, which is damned near everybody I've spent 10 minutes explaining it to.

    No virus/trojan protection is adequate at all for people who don't use common sense about it.
    tmaymuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 59 of 67
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,281member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    America's loose network or private and privately controlled data hubs makes for prime hunting grounds for international hackers.   They can pick and choose which to hack based on both the value of the data and how well it is protected.   Meanwhile, our government has little or no knowledge of the data nor how it is protected.

    China though appears to be going in the opposite direction.   From Reuters:

    THE FIFTH FACTOR

    Plans for a state-controlled data market have been in the works for years.

    In a closed-door 2017 meeting, President Xi Jinping urged policymakers to research global data governance and "propose a Chinese plan" for "opening, transacting, and confirming the ownership and property protection rights for data."

    The project was supercharged in April 2020, when a State Council document declared data would be the fifth "factor of production" - on par with labour, technology, land and capital in terms of national economic resources.

    That was quickly followed by the draft Data Security Law, which mandates mass auditing of big data.


    So China sees data as a national asset -- on par with "labour, technology, land and capital" where the central government oversees it and protects it.  It sounds like they have a plan.

    Do we? 
    (Unfortunately, bluster and outrage are not a plan)



    I'm thinking that you misread what NATO stated in its actual press release;

    ....

    I'll make more popcorn.


    Funny, the post you responded to neither said nor suggested anything about NATO.   But it triggered you to go on another "I hate China", "China is evil" rampage -- again...

    Sorry.

    Hey, look what your PRC pal's have been up to;

    https://www.propublica.org/article/operation-fox-hunt-how-china-exports-repression-using-a-network-of-spies-hidden-in-plain-sight

    On the hunt again, the cop from Wuhan rolled into New Jersey on a secret reconnaissance mission.

    Hu Ji watched the suburban landscape glide past the highway. He was in his early 40s, about 6-foot-1, smooth and confident-looking. His cases had led from Fiji to France to Mexico, making headlines back home. The work was riskier here; in fact, it was illegal. But he knew the turf. He’d identified himself as a Chinese police officer on his tourist visa, and the Americans hadn’t given him any trouble. Sometimes, it was best to hide in plain sight.

    Hu’s driver took an exit into a wooded subdivision, cruising by big homes set back from the two-lane road that wound through one of the country’s wealthiest enclaves. The driver was a new recruit, a boyish-looking Chinese immigrant in his late 20s who lived in Queens and called himself Johnny. Johnny’s uncle in Houston had been a target of Hu’s covert team. Two months earlier, they had “persuaded” the uncle, a former chief accountant for a provincial aviation agency, to return to China to stand trial for alleged crimes. Hu had essentially offered a brutal deal to Johnny and his relatives: If you want to help your family, help us destroy someone else’s.

    So in September 2016, Johnny became an indentured spy. He’d already done surveillance to prepare for this visit. Stopping the car, Johnny pointed out the location. The cop surveyed the large lawn, the trees flanking a brick path, the two-story house behind bushes.

    Don’t tell anyone you brought me here, he said.

    But, but, peace loving....

    You seem to be trying to turn ai into an extension and tool of your hate of anything and everything Chinese.
    You postings appear to be an actual extension of the PRC.

    I have never implied, or stated, that I hate everything Chinese. You decided to label me a China hater because you can't argue facts to counter China's Militarism, and Authoritarianism.

    Sad..


    If you believe that you are more deluded than I thought -- although I noticed you parsed your words pretty carefully there...
  • Reply 60 of 67
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,430member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    America's loose network or private and privately controlled data hubs makes for prime hunting grounds for international hackers.   They can pick and choose which to hack based on both the value of the data and how well it is protected.   Meanwhile, our government has little or no knowledge of the data nor how it is protected.

    China though appears to be going in the opposite direction.   From Reuters:

    THE FIFTH FACTOR

    Plans for a state-controlled data market have been in the works for years.

    In a closed-door 2017 meeting, President Xi Jinping urged policymakers to research global data governance and "propose a Chinese plan" for "opening, transacting, and confirming the ownership and property protection rights for data."

    The project was supercharged in April 2020, when a State Council document declared data would be the fifth "factor of production" - on par with labour, technology, land and capital in terms of national economic resources.

    That was quickly followed by the draft Data Security Law, which mandates mass auditing of big data.


    So China sees data as a national asset -- on par with "labour, technology, land and capital" where the central government oversees it and protects it.  It sounds like they have a plan.

    Do we? 
    (Unfortunately, bluster and outrage are not a plan)



    I'm thinking that you misread what NATO stated in its actual press release;

    ....

    I'll make more popcorn.


    Funny, the post you responded to neither said nor suggested anything about NATO.   But it triggered you to go on another "I hate China", "China is evil" rampage -- again...

    Sorry.

    Hey, look what your PRC pal's have been up to;

    https://www.propublica.org/article/operation-fox-hunt-how-china-exports-repression-using-a-network-of-spies-hidden-in-plain-sight

    On the hunt again, the cop from Wuhan rolled into New Jersey on a secret reconnaissance mission.

    Hu Ji watched the suburban landscape glide past the highway. He was in his early 40s, about 6-foot-1, smooth and confident-looking. His cases had led from Fiji to France to Mexico, making headlines back home. The work was riskier here; in fact, it was illegal. But he knew the turf. He’d identified himself as a Chinese police officer on his tourist visa, and the Americans hadn’t given him any trouble. Sometimes, it was best to hide in plain sight.

    Hu’s driver took an exit into a wooded subdivision, cruising by big homes set back from the two-lane road that wound through one of the country’s wealthiest enclaves. The driver was a new recruit, a boyish-looking Chinese immigrant in his late 20s who lived in Queens and called himself Johnny. Johnny’s uncle in Houston had been a target of Hu’s covert team. Two months earlier, they had “persuaded” the uncle, a former chief accountant for a provincial aviation agency, to return to China to stand trial for alleged crimes. Hu had essentially offered a brutal deal to Johnny and his relatives: If you want to help your family, help us destroy someone else’s.

    So in September 2016, Johnny became an indentured spy. He’d already done surveillance to prepare for this visit. Stopping the car, Johnny pointed out the location. The cop surveyed the large lawn, the trees flanking a brick path, the two-story house behind bushes.

    Don’t tell anyone you brought me here, he said.

    But, but, peace loving....

    You seem to be trying to turn ai into an extension and tool of your hate of anything and everything Chinese.
    You postings appear to be an actual extension of the PRC.

    I have never implied, or stated, that I hate everything Chinese. You decided to label me a China hater because you can't argue facts to counter China's Militarism, and Authoritarianism.

    Sad..


    If you believe that you are more deluded than I thought -- although I noticed you parsed your words pretty carefully there...
    Oh now you've done it again. You made me post more anti-PRC links;


    NEW: China has built enough space to detain 1 million Muslims. After locating the network of camps in Xinjiang last year, we got China’s prison building regs and began to reverse engineer what they had built.

    https://project2049.net/2021/07/22/hostile-harbors-taiwans-ports-and-pla-invasion-plans/
    The scale of an all-out Taiwan (Republic of China, ROC) invasion by the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) military—the People’s Liberation Army (PLA)—defies human comprehension and would likely eclipse any historical comparison. In this important contribution to the field, Senior Director Ian Easton analyzes Chinese military studies frameworks and internal PLA documents to answer pressing questions that will help Taiwan and the United States both understand and better plan for potential crisis scenarios. He highlights the centrality of ROC port facilities—and Taiwan’s ability to defend them—in the PLA’s potential invasion plans for Taiwan, illustrating likely operational strategies explored by PLA leadership. In addition to postulating ports likely targeted in a PLA invasion, he provides recommendations that the Taiwanese government could undertake to ensure its port infrastructure security, as well as recommendations for the United States on how to be a supportive partner to Taiwan in that effort.
    edited July 23
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