FTC pledges to take on unlawful restrictions on right-to-repair

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 31
    OctoMonkeyOctoMonkey Posts: 207member
    avon b7 said:
    genovelle said:
    DAalseth said:
    I have to admit that I’ve changed my mind on Right to Repair. Common things, phone screens and batteries, for example, should be easy and fairly inexpensive. I understand if a particular component needs to be factory replaced for security, a touch ID button for example. But how often do those break. Common repairs though should not be tough or expensive. 
    All of these things are tied together. Even Apple with trained techs have issues dealing with the batteries in phones. If handled improperly they go into a runaway thermal reaction event that can be deadly. It has happened at Apple stores in the repair departments. The difference is they are trained to handle this and have containment devices designed to minimize risk. 

    They are also performing proper testing. The other side to this is random 3rd parties can claim they know what they are doing, perform a substandard repair that fails weeks later and know the customer’s family will attempt to sue Apple because of the resulting death of their loved one. 

    Uncertified 3rd parties can also claim to use genuine Apple parts, but then turn around and use cheap knockoffs and then blame Apple when the customer has issues down the road. 

    This is not a car. When Honda sells their Hydrogen car there are only a few places to service it. The reason is there is more to repairing it then just connecting some parts together. 
    That is where 'design for repair' comes in.

    A battery in a smartphone should not be anymore of a health hazard to a technician than a pair of scissors. 
    I can see it now...  Public service messages warning against running while holding a battery.  HAH!
    MplsP
  • Reply 22 of 31
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 832member
    Once out of warranty, you could always have your Apple product repaired by anyone. The risks and rewards are yours. 

    Right to repair under warranty is a different story. 

    What does "unlawful restriction" mean? Lot of wiggle room here. 

  • Reply 23 of 31
    mknelsonmknelson Posts: 823member
    genovelle said:
    DAalseth said:
    I have to admit that I’ve changed my mind on Right to Repair. Common things, phone screens and batteries, for example, should be easy and fairly inexpensive. I understand if a particular component needs to be factory replaced for security, a touch ID button for example. But how often do those break. Common repairs though should not be tough or expensive. 
    All of these things are tied together. Even Apple with trained techs have issues dealing with the batteries in phones. If handled improperly they go into a runaway thermal reaction event that can be deadly. It has happened at Apple stores in the repair departments. The difference is they are trained to handle this and have containment devices designed to minimize risk. 

    They are also performing proper testing. The other side to this is random 3rd parties can claim they know what they are doing, perform a substandard repair that fails weeks later and know the customer’s family will attempt to sue Apple because of the resulting death of their loved one. 

    Uncertified 3rd parties can also claim to use genuine Apple parts, but then turn around and use cheap knockoffs and then blame Apple when the customer has issues down the road. 

    This is not a car. When Honda sells their Hydrogen car there are only a few places to service it. The reason is there is more to repairing it then just connecting some parts together. 
    That too, but runaway thermals are not common.

    The real issue for techs is the way the phones are sealed to make them suitably water resistant. It's not like in the iPhone 4 days where it was all just tiny screws. You need special fixtures to easily detach and reattach the display (possibly using heat on the latest models).
  • Reply 24 of 31
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,449member
    elijahg said:
    lkrupp said:
    I think the vast majority of Apple product owners will be unaffected by this. I know for myself that I would never, EVER, use a third party repair shop to work on my Apple gear, even a battery replacement. An article elsewhere estimates Apple has lost $3.2B to counterfeit AirPods. imagine the flood of counterfeit parts going to third party repair shops as they struggle to compete against each other. It’s no different than the scam investigations of independent auto repair shops where customers are lied to garner large repair bills. It will be BUYER BEWARE on steroids for Apple owners wanting to get their gear fixed. 
    Again, complete rubbish. Third party repair shops just like authorised Apple repair shops could get parts directly from Apple, so they wouldn't be counterfeit. Counterfeit Airpods are an entirely different subject, nothing to do with repairs whatsoever, Apple is not losing money from counterfeit parts because they don't sell any parts in the first place. There is a "flood" of counterfeit parts going to third party repair shops now because genuine ones aren't available, meaning the customer will *always* have counterfeit parts if they choose to use a third party to repair their phone. Whilst Apple makes exactly $0 from those counterfeit parts, they could make money selling genuine parts to customers. Of course this would be less than the extortionate amount they charge for repairs, which is the real reason they're so anti-right to repair legalisation. It's another few $$ in Cook's ever ballooning wallet.
    Not rubbish. Some shady third party repair shops WILL continue buy counterfeit parts and charge as if they are OEM parts just to make a few extra bucks off the clueless customer. It is simple human nature motivated by greed. 
  • Reply 25 of 31
    OctoMonkeyOctoMonkey Posts: 207member
    mknelson said:
    genovelle said:
    DAalseth said:
    I have to admit that I’ve changed my mind on Right to Repair. Common things, phone screens and batteries, for example, should be easy and fairly inexpensive. I understand if a particular component needs to be factory replaced for security, a touch ID button for example. But how often do those break. Common repairs though should not be tough or expensive. 
    All of these things are tied together. Even Apple with trained techs have issues dealing with the batteries in phones. If handled improperly they go into a runaway thermal reaction event that can be deadly. It has happened at Apple stores in the repair departments. The difference is they are trained to handle this and have containment devices designed to minimize risk. 

    They are also performing proper testing. The other side to this is random 3rd parties can claim they know what they are doing, perform a substandard repair that fails weeks later and know the customer’s family will attempt to sue Apple because of the resulting death of their loved one. 

    Uncertified 3rd parties can also claim to use genuine Apple parts, but then turn around and use cheap knockoffs and then blame Apple when the customer has issues down the road. 

    This is not a car. When Honda sells their Hydrogen car there are only a few places to service it. The reason is there is more to repairing it then just connecting some parts together. 
    That too, but runaway thermals are not common.

    The real issue for techs is the way the phones are sealed to make them suitably water resistant. It's not like in the iPhone 4 days where it was all just tiny screws. You need special fixtures to easily detach and reattach the display (possibly using heat on the latest models).
    While basic water resistant (splash) manufacturing is not difficult, complicated or expensive, submersion is another matter.  That said, very few people have a need for submersion resistance.  In my opinion, the value of water resistance is exceptionally limited is the real world.  However, it can be sold as a "feature" which "requires" the excessive manufacturing techniques which result in extremely difficult repairs.
  • Reply 26 of 31
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,314member
    lkrupp said:
    elijahg said:
    lkrupp said:
    I think the vast majority of Apple product owners will be unaffected by this. I know for myself that I would never, EVER, use a third party repair shop to work on my Apple gear, even a battery replacement. An article elsewhere estimates Apple has lost $3.2B to counterfeit AirPods. imagine the flood of counterfeit parts going to third party repair shops as they struggle to compete against each other. It’s no different than the scam investigations of independent auto repair shops where customers are lied to garner large repair bills. It will be BUYER BEWARE on steroids for Apple owners wanting to get their gear fixed. 
    Again, complete rubbish. Third party repair shops just like authorised Apple repair shops could get parts directly from Apple, so they wouldn't be counterfeit. Counterfeit Airpods are an entirely different subject, nothing to do with repairs whatsoever, Apple is not losing money from counterfeit parts because they don't sell any parts in the first place. There is a "flood" of counterfeit parts going to third party repair shops now because genuine ones aren't available, meaning the customer will *always* have counterfeit parts if they choose to use a third party to repair their phone. Whilst Apple makes exactly $0 from those counterfeit parts, they could make money selling genuine parts to customers. Of course this would be less than the extortionate amount they charge for repairs, which is the real reason they're so anti-right to repair legalisation. It's another few $$ in Cook's ever ballooning wallet.
    Not rubbish. Some shady third party repair shops WILL continue buy counterfeit parts and charge as if they are OEM parts just to make a few extra bucks off the clueless customer. It is simple human nature motivated by greed. 
    I'm sure some would try it on, but those that do would be sued for fraud if it was discovered. Just like Wallmart would if they started selling counterfeit AirPods. And unlike Airpods purchased online, repairers usually have to have a physical presence which is a lot more difficult to run away and hide from.
  • Reply 27 of 31
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,314member
    mknelson said:
    genovelle said:
    DAalseth said:
    I have to admit that I’ve changed my mind on Right to Repair. Common things, phone screens and batteries, for example, should be easy and fairly inexpensive. I understand if a particular component needs to be factory replaced for security, a touch ID button for example. But how often do those break. Common repairs though should not be tough or expensive. 
    All of these things are tied together. Even Apple with trained techs have issues dealing with the batteries in phones. If handled improperly they go into a runaway thermal reaction event that can be deadly. It has happened at Apple stores in the repair departments. The difference is they are trained to handle this and have containment devices designed to minimize risk. 

    They are also performing proper testing. The other side to this is random 3rd parties can claim they know what they are doing, perform a substandard repair that fails weeks later and know the customer’s family will attempt to sue Apple because of the resulting death of their loved one. 

    Uncertified 3rd parties can also claim to use genuine Apple parts, but then turn around and use cheap knockoffs and then blame Apple when the customer has issues down the road. 

    This is not a car. When Honda sells their Hydrogen car there are only a few places to service it. The reason is there is more to repairing it then just connecting some parts together. 
    That too, but runaway thermals are not common.

    The real issue for techs is the way the phones are sealed to make them suitably water resistant. It's not like in the iPhone 4 days where it was all just tiny screws. You need special fixtures to easily detach and reattach the display (possibly using heat on the latest models).
    Then third party techs just tell the customer the phone will no longer be waterproof. I've changed the battery in my iPhone X and using the supplied gasket re-sealed it with no special equipment.
  • Reply 28 of 31
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,328member
    I am more inclined to require full manufacturer support for a minimum of 10 years - much like automobile manufacturers.  This would be both hardware and software / firmware.  If a company decides to go with some proprietary interface, they should be required to provide support for 15 years minimum.  If companies don't like the idea of providing support for that long, just require them to release any and all information required to allow the aftermarket to provide the support.  I am all for technological innovation, but I do get weary of forced obsolescence.
    That might be realistic for products like a car or a refrigerator or air compressor or generator or washer/dryer, but not for consumer grade electronic devices that for the most part, problems that arises are electronic in nature and not mechanical or electrical.  Now of days, most electronic shops troubleshoot it down to which board have the problem and replace the whole board. The labor cost would be immense if they have to troubleshoot it down to the SMD component on that board and replace that component.  

    You think Blackberry should still carry parts to repair a 10 or 15 year old Blackberry phone? Have you seen how much a mobile phone that sold for  $200 to $500 10 years ago, goes for now? Maybe $35, if refurbished.  eBay is full of electronic devices that cost hundreds of dollars just 10 years ago and selling for less than $30 today.

    Who is going to pay for the labor to repair those, let alone for original factory parts?  An original $599 iPad can be had for about $30 now. And they are now 10 years old. (I still have mine and still use it.)  The same with consumer line digital cameras, game consoles and flat screen TV's, BlueRay players, TV boxes, etc.. After 10 years, the money is more often better spent on a new or newer used one, than on repairs. Who in their right mind would spend $40 (parts and labor) to repair a $70 10 year old DVD player, when a new  BR/DVD combo player can be bought for less than $50. 

    For most consumer grade electronics, even after 5 years and they are still working and functional, they might no longer be worth repairing. Specially at a repair shop, using  original factory parts. Might be worth repairing as a DIY project with third party parts or paying little for a "donor", to strip for its parts. 

    My wife 6 year old iPhone 5s cost $499 in 2015 and now sells used for less than $50 on eBay. I did replace the battery about a year ago with a $10 one off eBay. But that was an easy DIY project and worth the $10 (and 30 minutes of my time.), even if it was not an original Apple battery. How much you think this iPhone will be worth when it's 10 years old? It probably won't be worth for me to even spend $10 to replace the battery. For $10, I could probably buy a used iPhone 6s by then. 

    It is not forced obsolescence if it makes more economical sense for the consumer to buy a use or newer use one, than it would to pay for the cost of repairing it at a third party shop, using original factory parts. Remember, just because auto manufacturers must keep parts in stock for 10 years, it doesn't mean that the parts will still cost what it did 10 years ago. Specially if the parts are for an auto that didn't sell well or was used only on a few models for a couple of years and not in great demand.


    edited July 22
  • Reply 29 of 31
    hammeroftruthhammeroftruth Posts: 1,081member
    elijahg said:
    lkrupp said:
    elijahg said:
    lkrupp said:
    I think the vast majority of Apple product owners will be unaffected by this. I know for myself that I would never, EVER, use a third party repair shop to work on my Apple gear, even a battery replacement. An article elsewhere estimates Apple has lost $3.2B to counterfeit AirPods. imagine the flood of counterfeit parts going to third party repair shops as they struggle to compete against each other. It’s no different than the scam investigations of independent auto repair shops where customers are lied to garner large repair bills. It will be BUYER BEWARE on steroids for Apple owners wanting to get their gear fixed. 
    Again, complete rubbish. Third party repair shops just like authorised Apple repair shops could get parts directly from Apple, so they wouldn't be counterfeit. Counterfeit Airpods are an entirely different subject, nothing to do with repairs whatsoever, Apple is not losing money from counterfeit parts because they don't sell any parts in the first place. There is a "flood" of counterfeit parts going to third party repair shops now because genuine ones aren't available, meaning the customer will *always* have counterfeit parts if they choose to use a third party to repair their phone. Whilst Apple makes exactly $0 from those counterfeit parts, they could make money selling genuine parts to customers. Of course this would be less than the extortionate amount they charge for repairs, which is the real reason they're so anti-right to repair legalisation. It's another few $$ in Cook's ever ballooning wallet.
    Not rubbish. Some shady third party repair shops WILL continue buy counterfeit parts and charge as if they are OEM parts just to make a few extra bucks off the clueless customer. It is simple human nature motivated by greed. 
    I'm sure some would try it on, but those that do would be sued for fraud if it was discovered. Just like Wallmart would if they started selling counterfeit AirPods. And unlike Airpods purchased online, repairers usually have to have a physical presence which is a lot more difficult to run away and hide from.
    Actually, it is a full time job for someone at Apple to chase down all of the counterfeit parts that are trying to be passed off as genuine. Just look at the report Apple came out with that showed most of Amazon’s lightning cables are
    all counterfeit and dangerous because they could damage the iPhone. 

    The problem Apple has with right to repair is that the iPhone isn’t that easy to repair, unless you have someone that’s a whiz at handling very small components and knows how to use ESD safe environments and tools. The Apple stores are getting better at repairing devices, but they don’t do logic board repairs. So yeah you could replace a screen or rear camera, and a battery, but the battery is delicate and doesn’t have much protection. If you accidentally puncture it, you will have a thermal event. When you have a lithium ion battery fire, the fumes are more dangerous than the fire. 

    Apple will have to vet more 3rd party repair shops, and when that happens, don’t get upset when they all decide to collude in repair prices. You will end up back at Apple because they’re the only ones who will replace your device if they break it during a repair. 
  • Reply 30 of 31
    ajmasajmas Posts: 579member
    Once companies are forced to consider “right to repair” as a business requirement, that they can’t push back against, they’ll probably look for ways to make it work. 

    Businesses will typically push back against changes that will cost them money, but once they can’t push back, then they’ll find ways to make it economical to themselves. 

    Hopefully the right to repair will also help reduce certified repair costs, but that is probably wishful thinking?
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 31 of 31
    crowleycrowley Posts: 8,712member
    lkrupp said:
    elijahg said:
    lkrupp said:
    I think the vast majority of Apple product owners will be unaffected by this. I know for myself that I would never, EVER, use a third party repair shop to work on my Apple gear, even a battery replacement. An article elsewhere estimates Apple has lost $3.2B to counterfeit AirPods. imagine the flood of counterfeit parts going to third party repair shops as they struggle to compete against each other. It’s no different than the scam investigations of independent auto repair shops where customers are lied to garner large repair bills. It will be BUYER BEWARE on steroids for Apple owners wanting to get their gear fixed. 
    Again, complete rubbish. Third party repair shops just like authorised Apple repair shops could get parts directly from Apple, so they wouldn't be counterfeit. Counterfeit Airpods are an entirely different subject, nothing to do with repairs whatsoever, Apple is not losing money from counterfeit parts because they don't sell any parts in the first place. There is a "flood" of counterfeit parts going to third party repair shops now because genuine ones aren't available, meaning the customer will *always* have counterfeit parts if they choose to use a third party to repair their phone. Whilst Apple makes exactly $0 from those counterfeit parts, they could make money selling genuine parts to customers. Of course this would be less than the extortionate amount they charge for repairs, which is the real reason they're so anti-right to repair legalisation. It's another few $$ in Cook's ever ballooning wallet.
    Not rubbish. Some shady third party repair shops WILL continue buy counterfeit parts and charge as if they are OEM parts just to make a few extra bucks off the clueless customer. It is simple human nature motivated by greed. 
    So don't go to shady repair shops?  Go to ones with good word of mouth where you can talk to the repairers and get a feel for whether they'll do a good job.
    muthuk_vanalingam
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