waveparticle said: Decades of social movements in US has destroyed American's ability to operate manufacturing plant. The management are tied by human rights and spend way too much time on social issues of the workers. The people and the movement behind it are trying all they can to export this ideology to China and many other countries. But this is against capitalism which Taiwanese actually become better on execution.
Yes, China is very good at "execution". Most people celebrate human rights and the social issues of workers. Workers aren't slaves! Treating them fairly and paying them properly generally results in better productivity and quality.
He said Taiwan was better on execution, not China. Taiwan nearly ties the US on the Freedom Index. But you are correct that communist China is evil.
So, here we go again. A non-American company is buying a Lordstown Motors manufacturing plant along with a 4% share. I'm sure Tesla has foreign investors (yes/no?) but I still call them an American company. I have to wonder whether anything coming out of Lordstown will qualify for any EV credits since it appears most of the manufacturing will be performed by a foreign company even though the plant is located in the US.
Such nonsense. If the manufacturing plant is in Ohio, the last time I checked, Ohio is in the US. Therefore all work will be done by American workers.
No company does manufacturing. Companies, foreign and local, are concepts — they don’t do anything.
Hopefully Foxconn has better luck with that plant than GM did. They built that plant to great fanfare back in 1966 and, the best, most successful car that came out of it was the Chevy Vega...
Decades of social movements in US has destroyed American's ability to operate manufacturing plant. The management are tied by human rights and spend way too much time on social issues of the workers. The people and the movement behind it are trying all they can to export this ideology to China and many other countries. But this is against capitalism which Taiwanese actually become better on execution.
Meaningless tosh. Read the history of labour movements. Read also, what happened to US manufacturing since Reagan. The world is bigger than just the US and China; even if that is the full extent of your world.
Agreed - I’m quite thankful for the 40-hour work week, weekends, child labor laws, etc etc…All introduced to the world as part of the labor movement, a check & balance against the extremely wealthy executive class that owned production and basically owned workers.
Yes, that's all good stuff. But, as we have seen over the past half century, it only works where the U.S. operates as a closed system building and consuming all by itself, on its own, without global competition.
On a global scale, it's all free market capitalism where the weak get eaten and only the best survive.
In the case of Lordstown: They tried competing against better, cheaper Japanese cars with the likes of the Chevy Vega. They lost.
If you want shorter hours and higher pay scales you have to compensate for it with better technology and production practices or you won't be competitive and will become one of those that get eaten up in that survival of the fittest thing.
We have yet to see how Foxconn plans to approach that: will they have dormitories of low paid workers? Or, will they pay American style wages and benefits and make up for it with better technology and production techniques? Or, maybe a combination of both?
One thing we know: They will be competing amdst international competition where only the best survive.
Decades of social movements in US has destroyed American's ability to operate manufacturing plant. The management are tied by human rights and spend way too much time on social issues of the workers. The people and the movement behind it are trying all they can to export this ideology to China and many other countries. But this is against capitalism which Taiwanese actually become better on execution.
Meaningless tosh. Read the history of labour movements. Read also, what happened to US manufacturing since Reagan. The world is bigger than just the US and China; even if that is the full extent of your world.
Agreed - I’m quite thankful for the 40-hour work week, weekends, child labor laws, etc etc…All introduced to the world as part of the labor movement, a check & balance against the extremely wealthy executive class that owned production and basically owned workers.
Yes, that's all good stuff. But, as we have seen over the past half century, it only works where the U.S. operates as a closed system building and consuming all by itself, on its own, without global competition.
On a global scale, it's all free market capitalism where the weak get eaten and only the best survive.
In the case of Lordstown: They tried competing against better, cheaper Japanese cars with the likes of the Chevy Vega. They lost.
If you want shorter hours and higher pay scales you have to compensate for it with better technology and production practices or you won't be competitive and will become one of those that get eaten up in that survival of the fittest thing.
We have yet to see how Foxconn plans to approach that: will they have dormitories of low paid workers? Or, will they pay American style wages and benefits and make up for it with better technology and production techniques? Or, maybe a combination of both?
One thing we know: They will be competing amdst international competition where only the best survive.
Your bent against capitalism is curious as the Japanese themselves are also capitalist. What hobbles the US version is this mad fiduciary duty to the shareholders that appears to trump all other stakeholder rights. It’s enshrined into US law and it needs to be undone. The only problem is that you’d have to fight every lobbyist on Wall Street to make it happen.
Lucid Motors is getting very close to shipping their sedans. An American company with American manufacturing.
Not at all certain what your point is here. Lucid famously took an investment of $1B from the Saudi government (not a VC), and when the company goes public the Saudis will own 2/3 of the company stock.
Not saying anything is wrong with, but referring to Lucid as American through and through is more than a stretch.
Good catch there! Definitely wrong about Lucid's ownership. However, Lucid is a company that is HQed in the USA, its DDTE in the USA, has its plant in the USA and is staffed by Americans, no? My point is really to counter the continuing notion that the USA doesn't manufacture anything and doesn't have the skills to do so. This notions comes up every single time China comes up.
Maybe there should be more manufacturing of computers in the USA. If the USA wants it to happen, they already know what to do. They did it for the auto companies. They can do it for computers. Just mandate that some majority percentage of a computer or consumer electronic has to be USA sourced and made. That it hasn't been done yet should probably tell you that people are happy with what they are buying.
It's most certainly not a problem at an individual company level. Foxconn buying this plant from Lordstown is a net good. If they didn't, it would basically be closed down as Lordstown has some very long odds to even make it now that Ford and Tesla are only running behind Rivian by a year or so. GM is surely to follow now that Ford is in the game with an EV truck. Then, there are a lot of startups going for the truck startups.
If one of these USA EV startups want to contract manufacture their vehicle at this now Foxconn plant? That's a huge win. Railing against China this, China that is misplaced.
Lordstown cannot make it by itself is because of lack of capital? Why US venture capital would not buy it or fund it? Maybe US venture capitol don't believe Lordstown will make it? Why Foxconn thinks it can? These are the fundamental questions that Baiden administration should try to find out the correct answer and solution. Every thing else is just talk, talk.
Decades of social movements in US has destroyed American's ability to operate manufacturing plant. The management are tied by human rights and spend way too much time on social issues of the workers. The people and the movement behind it are trying all they can to export this ideology to China and many other countries. But this is against capitalism which Taiwanese actually become better on execution.
Meaningless tosh. Read the history of labour movements. Read also, what happened to US manufacturing since Reagan. The world is bigger than just the US and China; even if that is the full extent of your world.
Agreed - I’m quite thankful for the 40-hour work week, weekends, child labor laws, etc etc…All introduced to the world as part of the labor movement, a check & balance against the extremely wealthy executive class that owned production and basically owned workers.
Yes, that's all good stuff. But, as we have seen over the past half century, it only works where the U.S. operates as a closed system building and consuming all by itself, on its own, without global competition.
On a global scale, it's all free market capitalism where the weak get eaten and only the best survive.
In the case of Lordstown: They tried competing against better, cheaper Japanese cars with the likes of the Chevy Vega. They lost.
If you want shorter hours and higher pay scales you have to compensate for it with better technology and production practices or you won't be competitive and will become one of those that get eaten up in that survival of the fittest thing.
We have yet to see how Foxconn plans to approach that: will they have dormitories of low paid workers? Or, will they pay American style wages and benefits and make up for it with better technology and production techniques? Or, maybe a combination of both?
One thing we know: They will be competing amdst international competition where only the best survive.
Your bent against capitalism is curious as the Japanese themselves are also capitalist. What hobbles the US version is this mad fiduciary duty to the shareholders that appears to trump all other stakeholder rights. It’s enshrined into US law and it needs to be undone. The only problem is that you’d have to fight every lobbyist on Wall Street to make it happen.
LOL... How am I "against capitalism"?
If you read what I wrote, you would see it is a treatise on free market capitalism. It's just that, unlike most in the U.S. i recognize that, long term, the global market place operates under free market capitalist rules (whether the country is capitalist or socialist). And I recognize that in free market capitalism, it comes down to survival of the fittest: the ones that do it best and cheapest. And, these days that ain't us.
What I am against is delusional capitalism where someone thinks that because this country or this company has "always" been on top that it will stay on top. How many countries that were rich & powerful 100 years ago are rich and powerful today? Likewise, how many companies that were on the S&P 500 in 1970 are still on it?
But, I agree with you that what "hobbles the US version is this mad fiduciary duty to the shareholders that appears to trump all other stakeholder rights." -- except I would say it is not the only thing, but one of the things. A company (as well as a country) must invest wisely in itself to become and stay competitive -- but it takes more than that.
Lucid Motors is getting very close to shipping their sedans. An American company with American manufacturing.
Not at all certain what your point is here. Lucid famously took an investment of $1B from the Saudi government (not a VC), and when the company goes public the Saudis will own 2/3 of the company stock.
Not saying anything is wrong with, but referring to Lucid as American through and through is more than a stretch.
Good catch there! Definitely wrong about Lucid's ownership. However, Lucid is a company that is HQed in the USA, its DDTE in the USA, has its plant in the USA and is staffed by Americans, no? My point is really to counter the continuing notion that the USA doesn't manufacture anything and doesn't have the skills to do so. This notions comes up every single time China comes up.
Maybe there should be more manufacturing of computers in the USA. If the USA wants it to happen, they already know what to do. They did it for the auto companies. They can do it for computers. Just mandate that some majority percentage of a computer or consumer electronic has to be USA sourced and made. That it hasn't been done yet should probably tell you that people are happy with what they are buying.
It's most certainly not a problem at an individual company level. Foxconn buying this plant from Lordstown is a net good. If they didn't, it would basically be closed down as Lordstown has some very long odds to even make it now that Ford and Tesla are only running behind Rivian by a year or so. GM is surely to follow now that Ford is in the game with an EV truck. Then, there are a lot of startups going for the truck startups.
If one of these USA EV startups want to contract manufacture their vehicle at this now Foxconn plant? That's a huge win. Railing against China this, China that is misplaced.
Lordstown cannot make it by itself is because of lack of capital? Why US venture capital would not buy it or fund it? Maybe US venture capitol don't believe Lordstown will make it? Why Foxconn thinks it can? These are the fundamental questions that Baiden administration should try to find out the correct answer and solution. Every thing else is just talk, talk.
Lordstown’s CEO and CFO resigned or were fired about 3 months ago. The company also acknowledges that they inflated the number of potential customers or preorders they have. There is also an SEC investigation.
I think investors had a sense that the company wasn’t on the up and up before all the above went down, and Lordstown’s funding dried up.
For Foxconn, if this all happens, they get a factory, a factory in the USA, and more car manufacturing experience. $230m is a small price to pay.
If Lordstown actually wants to ship, they need $2.3b, not $0.23b. May even need to be double that as it looks like nothing has been done with the factory. Lordstown still needs to design and have built the tooling that need to build their vehicles. Don’t think that’s happening within a year. And I bet a lot their battery supply chain is effectively at zero too.
Their window looks to be gone IMO. Rivian is starting to ship. Ford is not that far behind. And, Tesla has 2m CyberTruck pre-orders. GM should surely be able to jury rig an EV truck well before Lordstown too. Their only hope is to specialize.
Lucid Motors is getting very close to shipping their sedans. An American company with American manufacturing.
Not at all certain what your point is here. Lucid famously took an investment of $1B from the Saudi government (not a VC), and when the company goes public the Saudis will own 2/3 of the company stock.
Not saying anything is wrong with, but referring to Lucid as American through and through is more than a stretch.
Good catch there! Definitely wrong about Lucid's ownership. However, Lucid is a company that is HQed in the USA, its DDTE in the USA, has its plant in the USA and is staffed by Americans, no? My point is really to counter the continuing notion that the USA doesn't manufacture anything and doesn't have the skills to do so. This notions comes up every single time China comes up.
Maybe there should be more manufacturing of computers in the USA. If the USA wants it to happen, they already know what to do. They did it for the auto companies. They can do it for computers. Just mandate that some majority percentage of a computer or consumer electronic has to be USA sourced and made. That it hasn't been done yet should probably tell you that people are happy with what they are buying.
It's most certainly not a problem at an individual company level. Foxconn buying this plant from Lordstown is a net good. If they didn't, it would basically be closed down as Lordstown has some very long odds to even make it now that Ford and Tesla are only running behind Rivian by a year or so. GM is surely to follow now that Ford is in the game with an EV truck. Then, there are a lot of startups going for the truck startups.
If one of these USA EV startups want to contract manufacture their vehicle at this now Foxconn plant? That's a huge win. Railing against China this, China that is misplaced.
Lordstown cannot make it by itself is because of lack of capital? Why US venture capital would not buy it or fund it? Maybe US venture capitol don't believe Lordstown will make it? Why Foxconn thinks it can? These are the fundamental questions that Baiden administration should try to find out the correct answer and solution. Every thing else is just talk, talk.
Lordstown’s CEO and CFO resigned or were fired about 3 months ago. The company also acknowledges that they inflated the number of potential customers or preorders they have. There is also an SEC investigation.
I think investors had a sense that the company wasn’t on the up and up before all the above went down, and Lordstown’s funding dried up.
For Foxconn, if this all happens, they get a factory, a factory in the USA, and more car manufacturing experience. $230m is a small price to pay.
If Lordstown actually wants to ship, they need $2.3b, not $0.23b. May even need to be double that as it looks like nothing has been done with the factory. Lordstown still needs to design and have built the tooling that need to build their vehicles. Don’t think that’s happening within a year. And I bet a lot their battery supply chain is effectively at zero too.
Their window looks to be gone IMO. Rivian is starting to ship. Ford is not that far behind. And, Tesla has 2m CyberTruck pre-orders. GM should surely be able to jury rig an EV truck well before Lordstown too. Their only hope is to specialize.
This description is very clear and adequate. Thanks.
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Their window looks to be gone IMO. Rivian is starting to ship. Ford is not that far behind. And, Tesla has 2m CyberTruck pre-orders. GM should surely be able to jury rig an EV truck well before Lordstown too. Their only hope is to specialize.