Apple facing another lawsuit claiming media purchase buttons are misleading

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Apple has been hit with another lawsuit accusing the company of misleading customers into believing they're purchasing -- rather than licensing -- content on iTunes.

Credit: Apple
Credit: Apple


The class action complaint, lodged Monday in the U.S. District Court for the Western District of New York, goes after the fact that Apple can remove any piece of digital content from a customer's account without prior notice. Although the lawsuit targets the iTunes store, users now purchase content on the Apple TV or Apple Music apps on Apple's modern operating systems.

As the lawsuit contends, digital content sold on Apple's services are licensed to the Cupertino tech giant and, by extension, to customers. Basically, the lawsuit says that this doesn't actually constitute a "sale" of digital goods. As such, it claims that buttons on the iTunes storefront that say "buy" or "purchase" are misleading.

"Reasonable consumers will expect that Defendant is using the words 'Buy' and 'Purchased' throughout the iTunes Store and apps in the same manner as those words are used, and understood, by the hundreds of millions of people throughout the world that speak English," the lawsuit reads. "Rather, the ugly truth is that Defendant does not own all of the Digital Content it purports to sell."

The complaint goes on to claim that a retailer like Best Buy or Target can't enter a customer's home and remove a piece of physical media. It uses this example as an argument against Apple or other tech companies reserving the right to remove digitally purchased content.

It also takes issue with the fact that Apple sells digital licenses to content for as much -- or more -- than similar retailing pricing for physical media in a store.

"Though some consumers may get lucky and never lose access to any of their paid-for media, others may one day find that their Digital Content is now gone forever," the lawsuit says. "Regardless, all consumers have overpaid for the Digital Content because they are not in fact owners of the Digital Content as represented by Defendant, despite having paid the amount of consideration typically tendered to 'Buy' the product."

This is not the first lawsuit to make a similar claim. Back in April, another class action complaint filed in a California court also alleged that the "buy" and "purchase" options on Apple services were misleading. Amazon too is facing a lawsuit along the same lines.

Apple has been accused of removing "owned" user content in the past. In previous cases, it has been either a technical or licensing issue, and generally resolved quickly.

Furthermore, Apple allows downloads of media other than 4K movies, to a Mac or iPhone. Should licenses expire for content, the downloaded content will still play.

ITunes Class Action - License Versus Purchase by Mike Wuerthele on Scribd

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 19
    adbeadbe Posts: 24member
    This case is going nowhere.  Apple are clear that you need to download your media to maintain a permanent copy, and contra to what this lawsuit insinuates, Apple obviously *does not* delete songs downloaded to local hard drives. 
    edited October 20 applguywatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 19
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,122member
    As much as I hate to say it, I can’t really disagree with this one. I’ve bought books that no longer work, because they were 32 bits. A great Ansel Adams book, and that one really annoyed me. Most of these books were written as apps which was very common a few years ago. Some still are, I think. Almost all have disappeared. I had a couple dozen. As we all know with media, particularly books, popularity varies greatly. If not enough are sold, the developer abandons them, much as publishers stop publishing them. But at least the paper copy doesn’t disappear.

    there are other reasons as well. A copyright may no longer allow a region, for example. There needs to be a way these things are grandfathered in, including something that theoretically won’t work. Somehow, these things need to be in some universal wrapper so they can be used in perpetuity.
    edited October 20 muthuk_vanalingamelijahgSolomon_Grundy
  • Reply 3 of 19
    You are buying a license.  We often forgot that because we were handed a vinyl record, or a tape, or a CD or an electronic file for our electronic player.  Those who never used physical media skipped that part.  None of this is new, and is older than we think:  I have an Edison "Standard" blue amberol cylinder, and it still amazes me that this is on the back from 1916:  


    THIS RECORD IS SOLD UPON THE CONDITION THAT IT SHALL NOT BE RE-SOLD TO OR AY ANY UNAUTHORIZED DEALER OR USED FOR DUPLICATION, AND THAT IT SHALL NOT BE SOLD, OR OFFERED FOR SALE, BY THE ORIGINAL, OR ANY SUBSEQUENT PURCHASER (EXCEPT BY AN AUTHORIZED JOBBER OR FACTOR TO AN AUTHORIZED RETAIL DEALER) FOR LESS THAN 35 CENTS IN THE UNITED STATES, NOR IN OTHER COUNTRIES FOR LESS THAN THE PRICE GIVEN IN THE CURRENT EDISON CATALOGUES OF THE COUNTRY IN WHICH IT IS SOLD: UPON ANY BREACH OF SAID CONDITION THE LICENSE TO USE AND VEND THIS 
    edited October 20 JapheyStrangeDaysSolomon_Grundyapplguywatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 19
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,638member
    jpellino said:
    You are buying a license.  We often forgot that because we were handed a vinyl record, or a tape, or a CD or an electronic file for our electronic player.  Those who never used physical media skipped that part.  None of this is new, and is older than we think:  I have an Edison "Standard" blue amberol cylinder, and it still amazes me that this is on the back from 1916:  


    THIS RECORD IS SOLD UPON THE CONDITION THAT IT SHALL NOT BE RE-SOLD TO OR AY ANY UNAUTHORIZED DEALER OR USED FOR DUPLICATION, AND THAT IT SHALL NOT BE SOLD, OR OFFERED FOR SALE, BY THE ORIGINAL, OR ANY SUBSEQUENT PURCHASER (EXCEPT BY AN AUTHORIZED JOBBER OR FACTOR TO AN AUTHORIZED RETAIL DEALER) FOR LESS THAN 35 CENTS IN THE UNITED STATES, NOR IN OTHER COUNTRIES FOR LESS THAN THE PRICE GIVEN IN THE CURRENT EDISON CATALOGUES OF THE COUNTRY IN WHICH IT IS SOLD: UPON ANY BREACH OF SAID CONDITION THE LICENSE TO USE AND VEND THIS 
    This mantra of “I bought it. it’s mine and I can do whatever I want with it” does not apply to software or copyrighted material. The gist of these lawsuits is the use of the term ‘buy’. What does that mean in terms of copyrighted electronic media. If you ‘bought’ a physical DVD/CD it would be impossible for the copyright holder to cancel the license and demand that you return the physical disc. That’s laughable. But what about a file you ‘bought’ that is stored on an Apple server?

    I don’t know how far these lawsuits will go but it’s time for all the companies providing streaming music or video to stop using the term ‘buy’. Make it perfectly clear you are only ‘buying' a limited license that can be revoked by the copyright owner. 
    Solomon_Grundywatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 19
    JapheyJaphey Posts: 996member
    jpellino said:
    You are buying a license.  We often forgot that because we were handed a vinyl record, or a tape, or a CD or an electronic file for our electronic player.  Those who never used physical media skipped that part.  None of this is new, and is older than we think:  I have an Edison "Standard" blue amberol cylinder, and it still amazes me that this is on the back from 1916:  


    THIS RECORD IS SOLD UPON THE CONDITION THAT IT SHALL NOT BE RE-SOLD TO OR AY ANY UNAUTHORIZED DEALER OR USED FOR DUPLICATION, AND THAT IT SHALL NOT BE SOLD, OR OFFERED FOR SALE, BY THE ORIGINAL, OR ANY SUBSEQUENT PURCHASER (EXCEPT BY AN AUTHORIZED JOBBER OR FACTOR TO AN AUTHORIZED RETAIL DEALER) FOR LESS THAN 35 CENTS IN THE UNITED STATES, NOR IN OTHER COUNTRIES FOR LESS THAN THE PRICE GIVEN IN THE CURRENT EDISON CATALOGUES OF THE COUNTRY IN WHICH IT IS SOLD: UPON ANY BREACH OF SAID CONDITION THE LICENSE TO USE AND VEND THIS 
    Did you use Live Photo to copy this text?
    edited October 20 watto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 19
    Dead horse beaten again and again. The publisher withdraws the movie from iTunes and makes it unavailable for download. It is the user's responsibility to download and store the purchased copy. iTunes is not customers' free eternal repository. Copyright law beats the consumer law, there is nothing to do.
    williamlondonSolomon_Grundywatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 19
    They should auto refund pulled apps & content
  • Reply 8 of 19
    This is so right. 

    They need to use this “you aren’t really ‘buying’ it” logic to many other situations. They can make billions. 

    For example, I went to a restaurant and “bought” a meal. I left it in the table and came back the next day and they refused to give it back. I own that meal that I paid for!

    Likewise, I “bought” an plane trip to Florida. Now, a few weeks later, where is that trip I bought??

    Clearly no one is using the term “bought” fairly. Consumers like me have no idea what to expect when we “buy” things now!!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 19
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,122member
    There is not a single thin in that “license” that states that Apple, or any other entity has the right to cancel a legitimate purchase. It’s the standard license stating that while it’s yours, this is what you can and can’t do with it.

    bjt there’s a problem between “buying” a material work, such as a CD, and “buying” a digital representation of that work. When you buy a physical work, it’s understood that you are buying the media, and licensing the work itself. But when you are told you are buying a digital representation, then that meaning changes. Now, you’re being told your buying the work itself, and that’s a problem. Companies shouldn’t use the term “buy” if they mean license. The two are different terms with different meaning. Courts often regard the commonly accepted meaning as the correct one to the consumer.

    bjt I accept the concept that we can’t sell copies of what we’ve “bought”, or give them away. No problem there. But when they remove something from the catalog, and tell you it’s no longer available in the store, so that you can’t use it, even if you choose to not delete it, then that’s wrong.
    Solomon_Grundyelijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 10 of 19
    I strongly disagree with this lawsuit. Yes you are buying the content. Leasing sounds like you are making regular payments, which is not the case. If you store your CD’s at your friend’s house and your friend’s dog then destroys your CD’s then you are out of luck. It’s the same principal here. If you are storing your property on someone else’s server then you are taking your chances with that decision. Common sense ought to tell you to back up your purchases.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 19
    elijahgelijahg Posts: 2,509member
    I strongly disagree with this lawsuit. Yes you are buying the content. Leasing sounds like you are making regular payments, which is not the case. If you store your CD’s at your friend’s house and your friend’s dog then destroys your CD’s then you are out of luck. It’s the same principal here. If you are storing your property on someone else’s server then you are taking your chances with that decision. Common sense ought to tell you to back up your purchases.
    It's not leasing. It's licensing. Leasing is (usually) making regular payments.

    I think most people would assume they buy a copy of something, and it's theirs to keep. But that doesn't mean that the assumption is legally correct. Many people assume they "own" that copy, when in fact they're really selling you a license to use that item. So you aren't actually "buying" that app or song, you're licensing it. And Apple's long claimed you're "buying" the app/song/movie/tv show, which isn't legally the case.
  • Reply 12 of 19
    jimh2jimh2 Posts: 370member
    This will go no where because everyone knows how the digital world works and that is not to mention it is clearing outlined in the terms of service. If only the US had the UK legal system where frivolous suits do not exist because the loser has to pay all costs. No lawyer would put up bond money to be able to pursue questionable lawsuits.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 19
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,374member
    melgross said:
    There is not a single thin in that “license” that states that Apple, or any other entity has the right to cancel a legitimate purchase. It’s the standard license stating that while it’s yours, this is what you can and can’t do with it.

    bjt there’s a problem between “buying” a material work, such as a CD, and “buying” a digital representation of that work. When you buy a physical work, it’s understood that you are buying the media, and licensing the work itself. But when you are told you are buying a digital representation, then that meaning changes. Now, you’re being told your buying the work itself, and that’s a problem. Companies shouldn’t use the term “buy” if they mean license. The two are different terms with different meaning. Courts often regard the commonly accepted meaning as the correct one to the consumer.

    bjt I accept the concept that we can’t sell copies of what we’ve “bought”, or give them away. No problem there. But when they remove something from the catalog, and tell you it’s no longer available in the store, so that you can’t use it, even if you choose to not delete it, then that’s wrong.
    But it is not Apple or some other entity that cancels the legitimate purchase. Any license to copyrighted works purchased from Apple will always be valid so long as you stored the purchases on your device. Apple nor the copyright owner, will come to your home and remove that device. Just like Best Buy and Target will not come to your home to remove the CD/DVD/BluRay disc you bought from them. Even if the copyright owners cancel Best Buy or Target license to sell CD/DVD/BluRay disc of their work.  

    What happens is that the copyright owners can cancel Apple's license to sell their work. When this happens, Apple has no choice but to stop selling the copyrighted work and remove the work from their servers. When this happens, any purchaser that didn't download their purchases to their own device, will lose access to those purchases when they are no longer on Apple servers. Apple has no choice in the matter, as Apple is not the owner of the copyrighted works that they sell.

    But this is where Apple can get in trouble and should. When one does a backup of one's device to the iCloud, Apple do not actually copy any purchased movies or music or iBook, if they are still available for download. This way Apple saves a lot of iCloud space for the device owners. When one restore from such a backup, Apple will just re-download those purchases on to the device being restored.

    But if between the time one backs up and one use that backup to do a restore, Apple loses the license to sell certain copyrighted works that were in the backup, the owners of the devices will no longer have access to those copyrighted work that they purchased a license for, as Apple would no longer be able to download the work they lost the license to.  Even though the purchasers did the right thing and downloaded their purchases on to their devices. That should be on Apple. If one were to back up on to iTunes on a computer, those copyrighted work would be in the computer and can be restored to a new device. They would not need to be download them again from Apple.  

    But one need to look at the advantages of "buying" downloads of digital movies or music. If one were to buy 1000 CD/DVD/BluRay disc, stored them in their garage and their garage catches on fire and burn all those physical disc. They are out of luck and have to buy all those disc again. They only own the license to those purchases, so long as they still own the physical media that that license came with. Unless they made a backup. But even then, one is not allowed to own a backup copy of copyrighted work on an original disc, if they no longer have that original disc. 

    But if one were to buy licenses of digital downloads, they can always re-download their purchases, at no cost, providing they are still available for download. And over 99% of the time, they will be. Even if the device that they downloaded their purchases to, was destroyed in a fire. Just try to convince Best Buy or Target, to replace any CD/DVD/BluRay disc that you bought from them and lost in a fire. 
    edited October 20
  • Reply 14 of 19
    croprcropr Posts: 1,053member
    davidw said:

    What happens is that the copyright owners can cancel Apple's license to sell their work. When this happens, Apple has no choice but to stop selling the copyrighted work and remove the work from their servers. When this happens, any purchaser that didn't download their purchases to their own device, will lose access to those purchases when they are no longer on Apple servers. Apple has no choice in the matter, as Apple is not the owner of the copyrighted works that they sell.
    I disagree.  Apple should of course no longer sell the work, but there is absolutely no reason why Apple cannot keep the work on its servers so consumers who legally bought the license before the cancellation took place, can continue downloading it.

    muthuk_vanalingamelijahgwilliamlondon
  • Reply 15 of 19
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,374member
    cropr said:
    davidw said:

    What happens is that the copyright owners can cancel Apple's license to sell their work. When this happens, Apple has no choice but to stop selling the copyrighted work and remove the work from their servers. When this happens, any purchaser that didn't download their purchases to their own device, will lose access to those purchases when they are no longer on Apple servers. Apple has no choice in the matter, as Apple is not the owner of the copyrighted works that they sell.
    I disagree.  Apple should of course no longer sell the work, but there is absolutely no reason why Apple cannot keep the work on its servers so consumers who legally bought the license before the cancellation took place, can continue downloading it.

    Apple would still need a license from the copyright owners to do that. 

    Unless Apple agrees to store a copy the purchase on their servers (at no charge), for the consumers that bought a license to it. In which case, if Apple sold 1M licenses of a copyrighted work. they would need to store 1M copies of it on their servers, in order for those 1M purchasers to have access to "their own" copy. Apple would not be able to store just 1 copy (or just a faction of the copies sold)  and allow 1M purchasers access to those copies. Apple would essentially be "streaming" that copy and that requires a license from the copyright owner. Which the copyright owners don't have to issue to Apple.  


    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 19
    4K is the big question mark when it comes to digital purchases. You have always been able to download HD and SD purchases to a local drive, but a 4K purchase doesn't work that way. The 4K version can only be streamed, while the download is limited to HD. What happens when the license holder removes the content from Apple's store? You paid a 4K price but can only keep the HD download. IMO, that appears to be problematic from a consumer standpoint. 
  • Reply 17 of 19
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,122member
    davidw said:
    melgross said:
    There is not a single thin in that “license” that states that Apple, or any other entity has the right to cancel a legitimate purchase. It’s the standard license stating that while it’s yours, this is what you can and can’t do with it.

    bjt there’s a problem between “buying” a material work, such as a CD, and “buying” a digital representation of that work. When you buy a physical work, it’s understood that you are buying the media, and licensing the work itself. But when you are told you are buying a digital representation, then that meaning changes. Now, you’re being told your buying the work itself, and that’s a problem. Companies shouldn’t use the term “buy” if they mean license. The two are different terms with different meaning. Courts often regard the commonly accepted meaning as the correct one to the consumer.

    bjt I accept the concept that we can’t sell copies of what we’ve “bought”, or give them away. No problem there. But when they remove something from the catalog, and tell you it’s no longer available in the store, so that you can’t use it, even if you choose to not delete it, then that’s wrong.
    But it is not Apple or some other entity that cancels the legitimate purchase. Any license to copyrighted works purchased from Apple will always be valid so long as you stored the purchases on your device. Apple nor the copyright owner, will come to your home and remove that device. Just like Best Buy and Target will not come to your home to remove the CD/DVD/BluRay disc you bought from them. Even if the copyright owners cancel Best Buy or Target license to sell CD/DVD/BluRay disc of their work.  

    What happens is that the copyright owners can cancel Apple's license to sell their work. When this happens, Apple has no choice but to stop selling the copyrighted work and remove the work from their servers. When this happens, any purchaser that didn't download their purchases to their own device, will lose access to those purchases when they are no longer on Apple servers. Apple has no choice in the matter, as Apple is not the owner of the copyrighted works that they sell.

    But this is where Apple can get in trouble and should. When one does a backup of one's device to the iCloud, Apple do not actually copy any purchased movies or music or iBook, if they are still available for download. This way Apple saves a lot of iCloud space for the device owners. When one restore from such a backup, Apple will just re-download those purchases on to the device being restored.

    But if between the time one backs up and one use that backup to do a restore, Apple loses the license to sell certain copyrighted works that were in the backup, the owners of the devices will no longer have access to those copyrighted work that they purchased a license for, as Apple would no longer be able to download the work they lost the license to.  Even though the purchasers did the right thing and downloaded their purchases on to their devices. That should be on Apple. If one were to back up on to iTunes on a computer, those copyrighted work would be in the computer and can be restored to a new device. They would not need to be download them again from Apple.  

    But one need to look at the advantages of "buying" downloads of digital movies or music. If one were to buy 1000 CD/DVD/BluRay disc, stored them in their garage and their garage catches on fire and burn all those physical disc. They are out of luck and have to buy all those disc again. They only own the license to those purchases, so long as they still own the physical media that that license came with. Unless they made a backup. But even then, one is not allowed to own a backup copy of copyrighted work on an original disc, if they no longer have that original disc. 

    But if one were to buy licenses of digital downloads, they can always re-download their purchases, at no cost, providing they are still available for download. And over 99% of the time, they will be. Even if the device that they downloaded their purchases to, was destroyed in a fire. Just try to convince Best Buy or Target, to replace any CD/DVD/BluRay disc that you bought from them and lost in a fire. 
    As I said, that’s not always the case. If I buy a book in a bookstore, and the author updates it, I don’t get an updated copy. I do with electronic books. But when the publisher abandons the book because it’s not selling, I still have the book, I may not have it if it’s an electronic download. Why? I also won’t have it if Apple updates their hardware or software. This happens with apps mostly, but I’ve had it happen with books in the bookstore.

    ‘’that’s not,right, and it shouldn’t have anything to,do with licensing.
  • Reply 18 of 19
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,374member
    melgross said:
    davidw said:
    melgross said:
    There is not a single thin in that “license” that states that Apple, or any other entity has the right to cancel a legitimate purchase. It’s the standard license stating that while it’s yours, this is what you can and can’t do with it.

    bjt there’s a problem between “buying” a material work, such as a CD, and “buying” a digital representation of that work. When you buy a physical work, it’s understood that you are buying the media, and licensing the work itself. But when you are told you are buying a digital representation, then that meaning changes. Now, you’re being told your buying the work itself, and that’s a problem. Companies shouldn’t use the term “buy” if they mean license. The two are different terms with different meaning. Courts often regard the commonly accepted meaning as the correct one to the consumer.

    bjt I accept the concept that we can’t sell copies of what we’ve “bought”, or give them away. No problem there. But when they remove something from the catalog, and tell you it’s no longer available in the store, so that you can’t use it, even if you choose to not delete it, then that’s wrong.
    But it is not Apple or some other entity that cancels the legitimate purchase. Any license to copyrighted works purchased from Apple will always be valid so long as you stored the purchases on your device. Apple nor the copyright owner, will come to your home and remove that device. Just like Best Buy and Target will not come to your home to remove the CD/DVD/BluRay disc you bought from them. Even if the copyright owners cancel Best Buy or Target license to sell CD/DVD/BluRay disc of their work.  

    What happens is that the copyright owners can cancel Apple's license to sell their work. When this happens, Apple has no choice but to stop selling the copyrighted work and remove the work from their servers. When this happens, any purchaser that didn't download their purchases to their own device, will lose access to those purchases when they are no longer on Apple servers. Apple has no choice in the matter, as Apple is not the owner of the copyrighted works that they sell.

    But this is where Apple can get in trouble and should. When one does a backup of one's device to the iCloud, Apple do not actually copy any purchased movies or music or iBook, if they are still available for download. This way Apple saves a lot of iCloud space for the device owners. When one restore from such a backup, Apple will just re-download those purchases on to the device being restored.

    But if between the time one backs up and one use that backup to do a restore, Apple loses the license to sell certain copyrighted works that were in the backup, the owners of the devices will no longer have access to those copyrighted work that they purchased a license for, as Apple would no longer be able to download the work they lost the license to.  Even though the purchasers did the right thing and downloaded their purchases on to their devices. That should be on Apple. If one were to back up on to iTunes on a computer, those copyrighted work would be in the computer and can be restored to a new device. They would not need to be download them again from Apple.  

    But one need to look at the advantages of "buying" downloads of digital movies or music. If one were to buy 1000 CD/DVD/BluRay disc, stored them in their garage and their garage catches on fire and burn all those physical disc. They are out of luck and have to buy all those disc again. They only own the license to those purchases, so long as they still own the physical media that that license came with. Unless they made a backup. But even then, one is not allowed to own a backup copy of copyrighted work on an original disc, if they no longer have that original disc. 

    But if one were to buy licenses of digital downloads, they can always re-download their purchases, at no cost, providing they are still available for download. And over 99% of the time, they will be. Even if the device that they downloaded their purchases to, was destroyed in a fire. Just try to convince Best Buy or Target, to replace any CD/DVD/BluRay disc that you bought from them and lost in a fire. 
    As I said, that’s not always the case. If I buy a book in a bookstore, and the author updates it, I don’t get an updated copy. I do with electronic books. But when the publisher abandons the book because it’s not selling, I still have the book, I may not have it if it’s an electronic download. Why? I also won’t have it if Apple updates their hardware or software. This happens with apps mostly, but I’ve had it happen with books in the bookstore.

    ‘’that’s not,right, and it shouldn’t have anything to,do with licensing.
    But that doesn't happen if you were to download that iBook on to your device, so you can read that iBook offline. Like when you want to read it while on an airplane. That copy you downloaded will not get updated or deleted. In which case, it's no different that buying a book or CD/DVD/BR from Best Buy. Plus, you get the updated copy for free, if the old version is no longer available for download.

    It's more like this. When you "Buy" a digital download of copyrighted works from Apple, Apple allows you to download a copy of what you bought on to your device, for offline access. This is the same as buying a CD/DVD/BR or book from Best Buy.  But, Apple will also allow you to stream those copyrighted works online, from their servers (for free), so long as they are still available for streaming. If you download what you bought to your own device, you will always have it. If you don't and choose to just stream it from Apple's servers, (for free) then Apple offers no guarantee that you will always have access to what you bought, on their servers. Apple knows that they do not own the copyrighted works and only have a license to stream those works. A license that can be revoke by the copyright owner. But the copyright owners can not revoke the license you bought, to access their works that are on your device. 

    The biggest issue with "buying" a digital download is that you can not sell it, like you can when you buy it on a physical media. With movies at least, those digital downloads are tied to your account by way of a DRM. So in order for some one else to play those movies, they must use your account. Or remove the DRM. Which might not be legal, but there are software that will easily do it. Much like removing the DRM in music, when they came with DRM. (Not familiar with the DRM in iBooks.) .

    But that DRM is there  because the copyright owners requires it, before Apple can sell digital downloads of their works. I don't see any class action lawyers going after the movie industry because the DRM takes away some of the aspect of "Buy", when you purchase digital downloads of movies. The movie industry goal is to do away with consumers owning the physical media, that contains their copyrighted works. 4K is just the beginning. 

    We already have several generations that have never owned or heard music playing from, a vinyl album. We might already have a generation that have never owned or heard music playing from, a CD. And soon we will have a generation that have never owned or seen a movie playing from, a DVD/BR. (When was the last time you saw a brick and mortar movie rental store?) The same with Edison cylinders, 78 shellac records, reel to reel, 8-track, cassette tapes, VHS, 8mm and laser disc, when they came to an end. The newer generation, for the most part, understands the limitations of "licensing" when they "Buy" downloaded copyrighted material. And they don't care. It's the older generations that grew up owning physical CD/DVD/BluRay and books, that are doing the most complaining about how they are being "deceived" when they "Buy" digital downloads of copyrighted works.  

    My nephew and niece, (in their early 20's), knows exactly what they are doing when they "Buy" digital download of movies and music and accepts its limits. I helped my nephew pack when he moved to L.A. and he didn't bring one CD with him (not that he owns a lot of CDs to begin with) and has never bought a movie on DVD or BluRay (he does own CD/DVD/BR of software and games). He doesn't even own a player that hooks up to a TV, for those. Even though his computer, iPhone and iPad (along with his Apple TV box.) has access to tons of music and movies. To him, CD/DVD/BR (of movies and music) are like floppy discs.       
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 19
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,122member
    davidw said:
    melgross said:
    davidw said:
    melgross said:
    There is not a single thin in that “license” that states that Apple, or any other entity has the right to cancel a legitimate purchase. It’s the standard license stating that while it’s yours, this is what you can and can’t do with it.

    bjt there’s a problem between “buying” a material work, such as a CD, and “buying” a digital representation of that work. When you buy a physical work, it’s understood that you are buying the media, and licensing the work itself. But when you are told you are buying a digital representation, then that meaning changes. Now, you’re being told your buying the work itself, and that’s a problem. Companies shouldn’t use the term “buy” if they mean license. The two are different terms with different meaning. Courts often regard the commonly accepted meaning as the correct one to the consumer.

    bjt I accept the concept that we can’t sell copies of what we’ve “bought”, or give them away. No problem there. But when they remove something from the catalog, and tell you it’s no longer available in the store, so that you can’t use it, even if you choose to not delete it, then that’s wrong.
    But it is not Apple or some other entity that cancels the legitimate purchase. Any license to copyrighted works purchased from Apple will always be valid so long as you stored the purchases on your device. Apple nor the copyright owner, will come to your home and remove that device. Just like Best Buy and Target will not come to your home to remove the CD/DVD/BluRay disc you bought from them. Even if the copyright owners cancel Best Buy or Target license to sell CD/DVD/BluRay disc of their work.  

    What happens is that the copyright owners can cancel Apple's license to sell their work. When this happens, Apple has no choice but to stop selling the copyrighted work and remove the work from their servers. When this happens, any purchaser that didn't download their purchases to their own device, will lose access to those purchases when they are no longer on Apple servers. Apple has no choice in the matter, as Apple is not the owner of the copyrighted works that they sell.

    But this is where Apple can get in trouble and should. When one does a backup of one's device to the iCloud, Apple do not actually copy any purchased movies or music or iBook, if they are still available for download. This way Apple saves a lot of iCloud space for the device owners. When one restore from such a backup, Apple will just re-download those purchases on to the device being restored.

    But if between the time one backs up and one use that backup to do a restore, Apple loses the license to sell certain copyrighted works that were in the backup, the owners of the devices will no longer have access to those copyrighted work that they purchased a license for, as Apple would no longer be able to download the work they lost the license to.  Even though the purchasers did the right thing and downloaded their purchases on to their devices. That should be on Apple. If one were to back up on to iTunes on a computer, those copyrighted work would be in the computer and can be restored to a new device. They would not need to be download them again from Apple.  

    But one need to look at the advantages of "buying" downloads of digital movies or music. If one were to buy 1000 CD/DVD/BluRay disc, stored them in their garage and their garage catches on fire and burn all those physical disc. They are out of luck and have to buy all those disc again. They only own the license to those purchases, so long as they still own the physical media that that license came with. Unless they made a backup. But even then, one is not allowed to own a backup copy of copyrighted work on an original disc, if they no longer have that original disc. 

    But if one were to buy licenses of digital downloads, they can always re-download their purchases, at no cost, providing they are still available for download. And over 99% of the time, they will be. Even if the device that they downloaded their purchases to, was destroyed in a fire. Just try to convince Best Buy or Target, to replace any CD/DVD/BluRay disc that you bought from them and lost in a fire. 
    As I said, that’s not always the case. If I buy a book in a bookstore, and the author updates it, I don’t get an updated copy. I do with electronic books. But when the publisher abandons the book because it’s not selling, I still have the book, I may not have it if it’s an electronic download. Why? I also won’t have it if Apple updates their hardware or software. This happens with apps mostly, but I’ve had it happen with books in the bookstore.

    ‘’that’s not,right, and it shouldn’t have anything to,do with licensing.
    But that doesn't happen if you were to download that iBook on to your device, so you can read that iBook offline. Like when you want to read it while on an airplane. That copy you downloaded will not get updated or deleted. In which case, it's no different that buying a book or CD/DVD/BR from Best Buy. Plus, you get the updated copy for free, if the old version is no longer available for download.

    It's more like this. When you "Buy" a digital download of copyrighted works from Apple, Apple allows you to download a copy of what you bought on to your device, for offline access. This is the same as buying a CD/DVD/BR or book from Best Buy.  But, Apple will also allow you to stream those copyrighted works online, from their servers (for free), so long as they are still available for streaming. If you download what you bought to your own device, you will always have it. If you don't and choose to just stream it from Apple's servers, (for free) then Apple offers no guarantee that you will always have access to what you bought, on their servers. Apple knows that they do not own the copyrighted works and only have a license to stream those works. A license that can be revoke by the copyright owner. But the copyright owners can not revoke the license you bought, to access their works that are on your device. 

    The biggest issue with "buying" a digital download is that you can not sell it, like you can when you buy it on a physical media. With movies at least, those digital downloads are tied to your account by way of a DRM. So in order for some one else to play those movies, they must use your account. Or remove the DRM. Which might not be legal, but there are software that will easily do it. Much like removing the DRM in music, when they came with DRM. (Not familiar with the DRM in iBooks.) .

    But that DRM is there  because the copyright owners requires it, before Apple can sell digital downloads of their works. I don't see any class action lawyers going after the movie industry because the DRM takes away some of the aspect of "Buy", when you purchase digital downloads of movies. The movie industry goal is to do away with consumers owning the physical media, that contains their copyrighted works. 4K is just the beginning. 

    We already have several generations that have never owned or heard music playing from, a vinyl album. We might already have a generation that have never owned or heard music playing from, a CD. And soon we will have a generation that have never owned or seen a movie playing from, a DVD/BR. (When was the last time you saw a brick and mortar movie rental store?) The same with Edison cylinders, 78 shellac records, reel to reel, 8-track, cassette tapes, VHS, 8mm and laser disc, when they came to an end. The newer generation, for the most part, understands the limitations of "licensing" when they "Buy" downloaded copyrighted material. And they don't care. It's the older generations that grew up owning physical CD/DVD/BluRay and books, that are doing the most complaining about how they are being "deceived" when they "Buy" digital downloads of copyrighted works.  

    My nephew and niece, (in their early 20's), knows exactly what they are doing when they "Buy" digital download of movies and music and accepts its limits. I helped my nephew pack when he moved to L.A. and he didn't bring one CD with him (not that he owns a lot of CDs to begin with) and has never bought a movie on DVD or BluRay (he does own CD/DVD/BR of software and games). He doesn't even own a player that hooks up to a TV, for those. Even though his computer, iPhone and iPad (along with his Apple TV box.) has access to tons of music and movies. To him, CD/DVD/BR (of movies and music) are like floppy discs.       
    Thank you, but I understand how this works. And you are wrong. Books have been deleted from the book store, and deleted from thecomputer, if you’re connected to the internet. As I said, if books are an app, and many have been, and still are, and aren’t supported by the developer any more, you can’t use them. When you tap on them you’re told that the app has to be updated by the developer, then you can choose to keep the now non working book/app, or can delete it. Sometimes you’re told that it’s no longer in the App Store, and it won’t work. You can then again keep the non working software, or delete it. This has happened to me numerous times.

    the problem of whether you’re buying something, or licensing it with some caveats, should be spelled out. Since we’re not buying physical media, and as a result, licensing the work, but are being told that that we are buying an instance of the work itself, then it should be inviolate. Apple is in control of the hardware it plays on, the OS it runs under, and the specs as to how it needs to be programmed. As a result, Apple has a lot of power here. When an entity somewhere withdraws permission to sell a work in some region, as happens more than you think, then those who have already bought it should still be allowed to have a working copy, in perpetuity. We don’t. When someone buys an app that a book, or magazine in 32 bits, then Apple should figure out a way to put that into a 64 bit wrapper so that we, who have upgrade to 64 bits, at Apple’s urging, can still read them. I’ve lost several hundred dollars of that book apps because of that. There’s nothing you can say that can excuse it.
    muthuk_vanalingamelijahg
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