It is very distressing how litigious the U.S. is. I just feel very strongly that we should take personal responsibility. The crash was not the fault of the car. It was the fault of the driver. I still, after all of these years, think about the woman who sued McDonald’s because she spilled hot coffee on her lap. I of course believe that people should have the right to sue, but people take it way to far. If people are trespassing on my property without my consent, they should not be allowed to sue me for example.
The difference is if the company states a capability that does not exist and your family member dies using it in the manner they proclaimed. Then the company is responsible.
The company is not stating a capability. They chose a very bad marketing name. It absolutely is misleading to call their beta software Full Self Driving. However, the users of the software have to consent to the terms of use which state that the Teslas are not autonomous vehicles and the drivers are supposed to be at full attention at all times and be ready to take over at a moments notice. The people who are not taking their responsibilities seriously as a beta tester shouldn’t be using the software but I just don’t see how that is Tesla’s fault.
It is very distressing how litigious the U.S. is. I just feel very strongly that we should take personal responsibility. The crash was not the fault of the car. It was the fault of the driver. I still, after all of these years, think about the woman who sued McDonald’s because she spilled hot coffee on her lap. I of course believe that people should have the right to sue, but people take it way to far. If people are trespassing on my property without my consent, they should not be allowed to sue me for example.
You should learn more about the hot coffee facts, and not the corporate PR campaign aimed at tort reform. The coffee was extremely hot and the cup flimsy - she required hospitalization and skin grafts for the third degree burns. The damages were punitive because it turned out McDonald’s had 700 prior burn victims but never changed their protocol or cup materials to make them safer. Now they have.
So hot coffee should not be hot? I know it is hotter than usual. But if the old lady is more careful, will that incident happen in the first place?
Should knife maker not sharpen the knife before leaving factory? People expected knife if sharp when new. Same as hot coffee is hot. This is the reason why a toaster need to put a warning on so that people will not to put it in shower.
If you read the case files you would have seen that the cup that contained the coffee was practically melting because the coffee was so hot. Hot enough to weaken the cup designed for hot liquids, not extremely hot. The lady was actually the passenger in a car using the drive thru. I believe it was her son who was driving and when he slowed to stop to leave, the liquid shifted back and the cup failed and spilled its contents all over the front of the old lady. This wasn’t just a hot cup of coffee, it scaled her so bad, it took several layers of her skin off.
If the cup was made out of a more heat resistant material or the coffee wasn’t so hot this accident wouldn’t have happened.
danox said: Baller, Palm and Intel said the same about previous projects, only a few insiders at Apple know for sure what Apple is actually working on, and most probably only know a small piece at that.
are you actually equating tesla to palm and balmer? tesla is the apple of the automotive world, nokia and palm are vw, ford, gm, etc. android is the chinese automakers. check out my comment above
And Blackberry was the Tesla of the ’phone world. ;-) I do believe that it is possible to come up with ‘automobile 2.0.’ Not only possible, but a matter of great urgency. I don't think Tesla is it, it’s more like ‘automobile 1.5.’ Whether Apple will pull it off is another matter…
I’m living in Oslo, Norway and the number electrical vehicles on the streets here is extremely high. Walking the streets I can often count 20 electrical vehicles in just under a minute. Looking forward to seeing what Apple will eventually make. In true Apple spirit though, I hope they’ll try to actually solve some problems instead of just launching a fine car. Traffic jams and single driving cars needs to be addressed. Slightly larger minibus like ride sharing alternatives could be cool.
I hired a Tesla the other week to get a full experience on a longer road trip. The driving experience was great but the two sore teeth that stood out were:
1. The traffic/ vehicles that the autopilot displayed on the screen, especially for cars going in the opposite direction, were VERY incomplete. It missed more vehicles than it got right. If what’s displayed on screen is what the Autopilot truly sees I would never trust the Tesla autopilot. It feels like it could drive safely only if other drivers drive safely. In a situation where a collision needs to be avoided, and it misses a few cars, it could be fatal.
2. The range prediction didn’t seem to take current driving conditions and weather into consideration. On my first drive (500km) the weather was fine, and the range prediction seemed largely on point. I planned my charge after 250km and it was then around 40%. But on my other drive (300km) it was both windy and heavy rain, the prediction was exactly the same as in fine weather. I planned my charge after 200km and the battery was then at 3%. Nerve wrecking!
It is very distressing how litigious the U.S. is. I just feel very strongly that we should take personal responsibility. The crash was not the fault of the car. It was the fault of the driver. I still, after all of these years, think about the woman who sued McDonald’s because she spilled hot coffee on her lap. I of course believe that people should have the right to sue, but people take it way to far. If people are trespassing on my property without my consent, they should not be allowed to sue me for example.
It is very distressing how litigious the U.S. is. I just feel very strongly that we should take personal responsibility. The crash was not the fault of the car. It was the fault of the driver. I still, after all of these years, think about the woman who sued McDonald’s because she spilled hot coffee on her lap. I of course believe that people should have the right to sue, but people take it way to far. If people are trespassing on my property without my consent, they should not be allowed to sue me for example.
I'm a lawyer. I have studied that case. The public does not have all the facts if they are relying on news reports.
So what are the facts? Did McDo shower her w hot coffee?? Obviously not right? She should just bought ice coffee instead.
I’m living in Oslo, Norway and the number electrical vehicles on the streets here is extremely high. Walking the streets I can often count 20 electrical vehicles in just under a minute. Looking forward to seeing what Apple will eventually make. In true Apple spirit though, I hope they’ll try to actually solve some problems instead of just launching a fine car. Traffic jams and single driving cars needs to be addressed. Slightly larger minibus like ride sharing alternatives could be cool.
I hired a Tesla the other week to get a full experience on a longer road trip. The driving experience was great but the two sore teeth that stood out were:
1. The traffic/ vehicles that the autopilot displayed on the screen, especially for cars going in the opposite direction, were VERY incomplete. It missed more vehicles than it got right. If what’s displayed on screen is what the Autopilot truly sees I would never trust the Tesla autopilot. It feels like it could drive safely only if other drivers drive safely. In a situation where a collision needs to be avoided, and it misses a few cars, it could be fatal.
2. The range prediction didn’t seem to take current driving conditions and weather into consideration. On my first drive (500km) the weather was fine, and the range prediction seemed largely on point. I planned my charge after 250km and it was then around 40%. But on my other drive (300km) it was both windy and heavy rain, the prediction was exactly the same as in fine weather. I planned my charge after 200km and the battery was then at 3%. Nerve wrecking!
You as the driver still responsible for everything….that is why you have a license to drive and you have insurance, otherwise ride a bus.
apple is hiring but tesla is hiring more. they literally increased their AI job applicants by 100x after their (mind blowing) AI day. and they have exponentially more real world car driving data than everyone else. i really don’t know how apple will compete in the self driving technology race.
And yet, reports from owners are it is quite dumb. Like Siri dumb. Like you will die or kill people dumb. These are such early days that no one has a lock on the market.
that's not true at all. tesla does have a lock. let me explain why.
tesla is using a different method than everyone else. waymo, cruise, apple, volkswagen, ford and others are using lidar and hd, 3d, human-annotated maps. that's fine but it's VERY expensive to scale. these companies have only made these maps for small cities and a small amount of big highways. you have to pay people to annotate and clean up those maps, and keep them UPDATED as everything changes, for eternity. good luck doing that for a whole country or the whole WORLD. i should add that lidars are expensive (a waymo car costs like 400k$, partly because of the multiple lidars it requires). i should also add that these companies have hit a local maximum since ~2019. https://www.businessinsider.com/cruise-automation-reportedly-struggling-refine-self-driving-tech-2019-6
tesla uses a different approach. it only uses cameras for self driving, it uses AI computer vision to do it. that approach is better because it's cheaper and a LOT more scalable. some other companies are using this approach too (such as mobileye) but AI needs data. the most data and highest quality data will win. and tesla has that, so they are able to train their AI like no one else. not only that but their data increases exponentially, and others are falling further behind instead of catching up. another big part is their amazing dojo supercomputer. the most powerful AI supercomputer in the world, #5 overall. https://cleantechnica.com/2021/08/22/teslas-dojo-supercomputer-breaks-all-established-industry-standards-cleantechnica-deep-dive-part-1/
the article seems to ignore the "beta" part for the most part, and acts like average consumers are using the software package right now. this is not the case. check out dirty tesla or ai drivr on youtube to see fsd beta in action. it's really great, the article is definitely exaggerating. and the rate of improvement from about a year ago when it was first released is astonishing.
if you wanna learn more i would recommend watching tesla's AI day, at least the part about self driving. it was one of the most impressive tech events i've ever watched. you will definitely love it if you are a tech fan
dr know it all on youtube is also great to understand tesla's big advantage.
I think Tesla's "camera only" approach is different than the rest of the field using LIDAR+cameras, but I see this aspect as completely separate from Tesla's AI/vision full self-driving (FSD) approach, which is to not rely entirely on pre-determined or human-curated maps for navigation. The FSD approach attempts to read the environment in real time (with map info), knowing that unplanned events (people, bicycles, road construction, accidents, altered signage, etc.) can significantly affect navigation. GM's SuperCruise is only allowed on curated highway maps right now as it is a more controlled (and smaller) environment than city streets. Look at some of the videos by Tesla's Andrej Karpathy explaining how their FSD processes and analyzes the vehicles surrounding environment in real time. Fascinating stuff, even if you don't like their approach.
Dojo is also interesting but has a very narrow application (AI training of neural nets) and appears to be for internal use only (like Apple Silicon).
Self-driving is obviously far more complicated than anyone expected, especially Musk, but I wouldn't say Tesla have a "lock" on it just yet.
I have a friend who was granted access to the FSD beta on his Model Y. He says it is quite amazing but still has some quirks. If the self-driving race ended today, Tesla probably would win, but I think the race is far from over.
apple is hiring but tesla is hiring more. they literally increased their AI job applicants by 100x after their (mind blowing) AI day. and they have exponentially more real world car driving data than everyone else. i really don’t know how apple will compete in the self driving technology race. but they’ll probably figure something out. they hired sandy munro so that was a great move. i don’t know how they’ll compete in terms of self driving tech, manufacturing tech, etc but i know they will create a beautiful car with an amazing user experience.
When did Apple hire Sandy Munro?
sorry to exactly "hire" as an employ but hire his company for help.
he got all anxious when asked about the apple car and refused to talk about that.
in another livestream q&a he got asked about apple car and he said something like "nda, next!"
Very interesting possible connection!
I'm a fan of Munro. Brutally honest on product design and manufacture from a technical point of view, especially during the early days of the Tesla Model 3 (spoiler: he bashed it) until Tesla cleaned up their design (and Munro and Musk actually discussed Tesla's progress).
Even if it were, it is so badly behind Tesla, not just on automotive, but batteries, software and ecosystem, that it'll take years to catch up (by which time Tesla will be further ahead). 'AppleCar' is essentially ending up like 'AppleTVSet.'
Even if it were, it is so badly behind Tesla, not just on automotive, but batteries, software and ecosystem, that it'll take years to catch up (by which time Tesla will be further ahead). 'AppleCar' is essentially ending up like 'AppleTVSet.'
Let's move along...
Or they could be behind like the iPhone was behind, or the Apple Watch was behind, or AppleTV original content was behind.
Even if it were, it is so badly behind Tesla, not just on automotive, but batteries, software and ecosystem, that it'll take years to catch up (by which time Tesla will be further ahead). 'AppleCar' is essentially ending up like 'AppleTVSet.'
Let's move along...
Or they could be behind like the iPhone was behind, or the Apple Watch was behind, or AppleTV original content was behind.
Yes, indeed, one has to consider that possibility. But one also has to consider the many initiatives in which Apple's plans didn't pan out in any scale (e.g., TV, home audio, routers, social media, cloud...)
My prediction -- which is as good as anyone's really, since no one has any real clue -- is that Apple abandons this in a few years. I'll be thrilled if I was wrong, and I'll be in line to buy (just recently ordered my first Tesla, December delivery).
Add: AppleTV's original content is rather badly behind. Not even close, by any objective standards.
It is very distressing how litigious the U.S. is. I just feel very strongly that we should take personal responsibility. The crash was not the fault of the car. It was the fault of the driver. I still, after all of these years, think about the woman who sued McDonald’s because she spilled hot coffee on her lap. I of course believe that people should have the right to sue, but people take it way to far. If people are trespassing on my property without my consent, they should not be allowed to sue me for example.
You should learn more about the hot coffee facts, and not the corporate PR campaign aimed at tort reform. The coffee was extremely hot and the cup flimsy - she required hospitalization and skin grafts for the third degree burns. The damages were punitive because it turned out McDonald’s had 700 prior burn victims but never changed their protocol or cup materials to make them safer. Now they have.
So hot coffee should not be hot? I know it is hotter than usual. But if the old lady is more careful, will that incident happen in the first place?
Should knife maker not sharpen the knife before leaving factory? People expected knife if sharp when new. Same as hot coffee is hot. This is the reason why a toaster need to put a warning on so that people will not to put it in shower.
Yes knives should be sharp, but this case was more akin to selling lawn darts as toys for families and children. McDonald’s was handing customers coffee that was just below boiling. Nobody drinks coffee that hot. Presumably they were doing that so it would stay hot longer and reduce complaints about cold coffee later. The risk is that near-boiling temperatures make flimsy disposable cups less rigid, and can cause severe burns when those cups fail. McDonald’s had hundreds of complaints about that, but didn’t do anything to change. So this lady sued to get them to change so future customers wouldn’t be severely burned.
Yes, there are frivolous lawsuits, but this was not one of them.
It is very distressing how litigious the U.S. is. I just feel very strongly that we should take personal responsibility. The crash was not the fault of the car. It was the fault of the driver. I still, after all of these years, think about the woman who sued McDonald’s because she spilled hot coffee on her lap. I of course believe that people should have the right to sue, but people take it way to far. If people are trespassing on my property without my consent, they should not be allowed to sue me for example.
I'm a lawyer. I have studied that case. The public does not have all the facts if they are relying on news reports.
So what are the facts? Did McDo shower her w hot coffee?? Obviously not right? She should just bought ice coffee instead.
McDonalds were not sued for spilling the coffee on the lady, they were sued for selling coffee at an unreasonable and dangerous temperature, so much so that the lady required multiple surgeries and skin grafts to repair the damage the coffee caused. Have you never spilt a drink? I have, and I've even spilt coffee on myself before, it wasn’t pleasant and I was a bit sore but I didn’t require the removal of tissue from one part of my body to repair another because of it. Coffee does not need to be served at temperatures that can melt human skin, McDonalds were putting people at risk to save a buck, at odds with the rest of the coffee industry.
The judgement in the case was that the lady was 20% at fault for spilling the coffee, with McDonalds 80% at fault because of the unreasonable and dangerous temperature of the coffee.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the USA doesn't have a large number of frivolous lawsuits, but this very much was not one of them.
This is as funny as it gets. Just go to Zoox and find that very senior engineer who was telling Apple managers to do proper automated testing on macOS. You did not like him and get rid of him. Well he is now in Zoox, but also put work in GM autonomous car before.
Even if it were, it is so badly behind Tesla, not just on automotive, but batteries, software and ecosystem, that it'll take years to catch up (by which time Tesla will be further ahead). 'AppleCar' is essentially ending up like 'AppleTVSet.'
Let's move along...
Or they could be behind like the iPhone was behind, or the Apple Watch was behind, or AppleTV original content was behind.
Yes, indeed, one has to consider that possibility. But one also has to consider the many initiatives in which Apple's plans didn't pan out in any scale (e.g., TV, home audio, routers, social media, cloud...)
My prediction -- which is as good as anyone's really, since no one has any real clue -- is that Apple abandons this in a few years. I'll be thrilled if I was wrong, and I'll be in line to buy (just recently ordered my first Tesla, December delivery).
Add: AppleTV's original content is rather badly behind. Not even close, by any objective standards.
TV is only behind to you because you made up some metric in your head. For all we know they’re meeting their internal goals.
Pan out in scale? Routers, really? Nobody cares about their limited toe-dipping in social media. Cloud… okay whatever. These examples are ridiculous considering the scale of Titan as it’s known, and that’s just what we know.
There’s no evidence they ever seriously intended to release an actual TV set, no matter how many times Gene Munster bleated on about that.
danox said: Baller, Palm and Intel said the same about previous projects, only a few insiders at Apple know for sure what Apple is actually working on, and most probably only know a small piece at that.
are you actually equating tesla to palm and balmer? tesla is the apple of the automotive world, nokia and palm are vw, ford, gm, etc. android is the chinese automakers. check out my comment above
And Blackberry was the Tesla of the ’phone world. ;-) I do believe that it is possible to come up with ‘automobile 2.0.’ Not only possible, but a matter of great urgency. I don't think Tesla is it, it’s more like ‘automobile 1.5.’ Whether Apple will pull it off is another matter…
apple was the tesla of the phone world. while i strongly believe no one is catching up to tesla in terms of technology (and even if they do, tesla will surpass again as they have done time and time again), i can imagine a revolution in the user experience and design (mainly interior) of the car. tesla has already done it, but it could be even more radical. but no one moves as fast as tesla, so even if someone does it, tesla won’t stand still
I’m living in Oslo, Norway and the number electrical vehicles on the streets here is extremely high. Walking the streets I can often count 20 electrical vehicles in just under a minute. Looking forward to seeing what Apple will eventually make. In true Apple spirit though, I hope they’ll try to actually solve some problems instead of just launching a fine car. Traffic jams and single driving cars needs to be addressed. Slightly larger minibus like ride sharing alternatives could be cool.
I hired a Tesla the other week to get a full experience on a longer road trip. The driving experience was great but the two sore teeth that stood out were:
1. The traffic/ vehicles that the autopilot displayed on the screen, especially for cars going in the opposite direction, were VERY incomplete. It missed more vehicles than it got right. If what’s displayed on screen is what the Autopilot truly sees I would never trust the Tesla autopilot. It feels like it could drive safely only if other drivers drive safely. In a situation where a collision needs to be avoided, and it misses a few cars, it could be fatal.
2. The range prediction didn’t seem to take current driving conditions and weather into consideration. On my first drive (500km) the weather was fine, and the range prediction seemed largely on point. I planned my charge after 250km and it was then around 40%. But on my other drive (300km) it was both windy and heavy rain, the prediction was exactly the same as in fine weather. I planned my charge after 200km and the battery was then at 3%. Nerve wrecking!
weird because on fsd beta videos the visualization of cars was perfect. maybe there’s a hardware problem or it had an old version. statistically, autopilot is safer than human drivers
apple is hiring but tesla is hiring more. they literally increased their AI job applicants by 100x after their (mind blowing) AI day. and they have exponentially more real world car driving data than everyone else. i really don’t know how apple will compete in the self driving technology race.
And yet, reports from owners are it is quite dumb. Like Siri dumb. Like you will die or kill people dumb. These are such early days that no one has a lock on the market.
that's not true at all. tesla does have a lock. let me explain why.
tesla is using a different method than everyone else. waymo, cruise, apple, volkswagen, ford and others are using lidar and hd, 3d, human-annotated maps. that's fine but it's VERY expensive to scale. these companies have only made these maps for small cities and a small amount of big highways. you have to pay people to annotate and clean up those maps, and keep them UPDATED as everything changes, for eternity. good luck doing that for a whole country or the whole WORLD. i should add that lidars are expensive (a waymo car costs like 400k$, partly because of the multiple lidars it requires). i should also add that these companies have hit a local maximum since ~2019. https://www.businessinsider.com/cruise-automation-reportedly-struggling-refine-self-driving-tech-2019-6
tesla uses a different approach. it only uses cameras for self driving, it uses AI computer vision to do it. that approach is better because it's cheaper and a LOT more scalable. some other companies are using this approach too (such as mobileye) but AI needs data. the most data and highest quality data will win. and tesla has that, so they are able to train their AI like no one else. not only that but their data increases exponentially, and others are falling further behind instead of catching up. another big part is their amazing dojo supercomputer. the most powerful AI supercomputer in the world, #5 overall. https://cleantechnica.com/2021/08/22/teslas-dojo-supercomputer-breaks-all-established-industry-standards-cleantechnica-deep-dive-part-1/
the article seems to ignore the "beta" part for the most part, and acts like average consumers are using the software package right now. this is not the case. check out dirty tesla or ai drivr on youtube to see fsd beta in action. it's really great, the article is definitely exaggerating. and the rate of improvement from about a year ago when it was first released is astonishing.
if you wanna learn more i would recommend watching tesla's AI day, at least the part about self driving. it was one of the most impressive tech events i've ever watched. you will definitely love it if you are a tech fan
dr know it all on youtube is also great to understand tesla's big advantage.
I think Tesla's "camera only" approach is different than the rest of the field using LIDAR+cameras, but I see this aspect as completely separate from Tesla's AI/vision full self-driving (FSD) approach, which is to not rely entirely on pre-determined or human-curated maps for navigation. The FSD approach attempts to read the environment in real time (with map info), knowing that unplanned events (people, bicycles, road construction, accidents, altered signage, etc.) can significantly affect navigation. GM's SuperCruise is only allowed on curated highway maps right now as it is a more controlled (and smaller) environment than city streets. Look at some of the videos by Tesla's Andrej Karpathy explaining how their FSD processes and analyzes the vehicles surrounding environment in real time. Fascinating stuff, even if you don't like their approach.
Dojo is also interesting but has a very narrow application (AI training of neural nets) and appears to be for internal use only (like Apple Silicon).
Self-driving is obviously far more complicated than anyone expected, especially Musk, but I wouldn't say Tesla have a "lock" on it just yet.
I have a friend who was granted access to the FSD beta on his Model Y. He says it is quite amazing but still has some quirks. If the self-driving race ended today, Tesla probably would win, but I think the race is far from over.
agree on almost everything. elon did say that they will license dojo to other companies making self driving software i disagree on the part that tesla doesn’t have a lock on it. not only do they have a lock on it but they will be EXTENDING their lead due to extending their lead in DATA collection. CRITICALLY important yes it does have some quirks but the rate of improvement is astonishing. just look at videos from a year ago when it was first released and recent ones
Even if it were, it is so badly behind Tesla, not just on automotive, but batteries, software and ecosystem, that it'll take years to catch up (by which time Tesla will be further ahead). 'AppleCar' is essentially ending up like 'AppleTVSet.'
Let's move along...
Or they could be behind like the iPhone was behind, or the Apple Watch was behind, or AppleTV original content was behind.
you don’t know enough about tesla to say this, and how far ahead they are
Comments
And Blackberry was the Tesla of the ’phone world. ;-)
I do believe that it is possible to come up with ‘automobile 2.0.’ Not only possible, but a matter of great urgency. I don't think Tesla is it, it’s more like ‘automobile 1.5.’ Whether Apple will pull it off is another matter…
I hired a Tesla the other week to get a full experience on a longer road trip. The driving experience was great but the two sore teeth that stood out were:
1. The traffic/ vehicles that the autopilot displayed on the screen, especially for cars going in the opposite direction, were VERY incomplete. It missed more vehicles than it got right. If what’s displayed on screen is what the Autopilot truly sees I would never trust the Tesla autopilot. It feels like it could drive safely only if other drivers drive safely. In a situation where a collision needs to be avoided, and it misses a few cars, it could be fatal.
2. The range prediction didn’t seem to take current driving conditions and weather into consideration. On my first drive (500km) the weather was fine, and the range prediction seemed largely on point. I planned my charge after 250km and it was then around 40%. But on my other drive (300km) it was both windy and heavy rain, the prediction was exactly the same as in fine weather. I planned my charge after 200km and the battery was then at 3%. Nerve wrecking!
Even if it were, it is so badly behind Tesla, not just on automotive, but batteries, software and ecosystem, that it'll take years to catch up (by which time Tesla will be further ahead). 'AppleCar' is essentially ending up like 'AppleTVSet.'
Let's move along...
The judgement in the case was that the lady was 20% at fault for spilling the coffee, with McDonalds 80% at fault because of the unreasonable and dangerous temperature of the coffee.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the USA doesn't have a large number of frivolous lawsuits, but this very much was not one of them.
while i strongly believe no one is catching up to tesla in terms of technology (and even if they do, tesla will surpass again as they have done time and time again), i can imagine a revolution in the user experience and design (mainly interior) of the car. tesla has already done it, but it could be even more radical.
but no one moves as fast as tesla, so even if someone does it, tesla won’t stand still
i disagree on the part that tesla doesn’t have a lock on it. not only do they have a lock on it but they will be EXTENDING their lead due to extending their lead in DATA collection. CRITICALLY important
yes it does have some quirks but the rate of improvement is astonishing. just look at videos from a year ago when it was first released and recent ones