FTC sues to block Nvidia's $40B acquisition of Arm

Posted:
in General Discussion edited December 2021
The Federal Trade Commission has sued to block Nvidia's $40 billion acquisition of chip design company Arm, claiming that the deal could stifle innovation and harm competition in the chip market.




According to the FTC, the proposed deal would "give one of the larges chip companies control over the computing technology and designs that rival firms rely on to develop their own competing chips." The FTC's complaint alleges that, if the deal went through, the new firm would have both the means and incentive to stifle innovation.

"Tomorrow's technologies depend on preserving today's competitive, cutting-edge chip markets," said Holly Vedova, director of the FTC's Bureau of Competition. "This proposed deal would distort Arm's incentives in chip markets and allow the combined firm to unfairly undermine Nvidia's rivals. The FTC's lawsuit should send a strong signal that we will act aggressively to protect our critical infrastructure markets from illegal vertical mergers that have far-reaching and damaging effects on future innovations."

News of Nvidia's proposed acquisition of Arm broke in September 2020. In addition to the FTC, other chipmakers -- including Qualcomm -- have voiced opposition to the deal.

Arm, which is currently owned by Japanese firm Softbank, doesn't make or market its own chips. Instead, it licenses microprocessor designs and architectures to other companies. Apple Silicon chips like the M1 or those used in iPhones, for example, are based on Arm designs.

In addition to the possibility of Nvidia stifling innovation, the FTC's lawsuit also claims that the acquisition could harm competition by giving the chipmaker access to the sensitive information shared with Arm by Nvidia's rivals.

Along with the FTC, the U.K. government has also probed the acquisition, stating that it could threaten the country's national security. Regulators in the U.K. signaled in August that they believe the deal could be anticompetitive.

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 30
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,768member
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 
    iOS_Guy8012Strangersmacxpresskillroywatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 30
    I guess the deal will end soon. With so many objections all over the world, it will not be possible to close the deal in near future. 
    GeorgeBMackillroywatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 30
    seanjseanj Posts: 269member
    Easiest option for SoftBank is simply to refloat Arm on the LSE, essentially simply reversing its acquisition.
    robabakillroywatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 30
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 

    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.
    williamlondonelijahgOutdoorAppDeveloper9secondkox2
  • Reply 5 of 30
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 
    So conversely since the FTC is suing NVIDIA to block the ARM acquisition, you are a proponent of Apple's App Store being forced to open up?
    I agree!
    elijahg9secondkox2
  • Reply 6 of 30
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 

    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.

    Waaaaaaaahhhhhh.

    Its your iPhone, but you only have a license to use the software on it. I mean, this has only been mentioned countless times over the years when talking about computers/software and ownership.
    williamlondonMacsWithPenguinsfreeassociate2blastdoorGeorgeBMacmacxpressdope_ahminekillroyrob53sdw2001
  • Reply 7 of 30
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 
    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    […] And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone. […]
    I see a solution that Apple might be okay with: customers can either run the iPhone as is, the way Apple intended, or switch out the bootloader to run another OS like Linux (Ubuntu touch or another variant) or Android …which would instantly disable access to everything in iOS such as Apple App Store first-party access, no iCloud, fingerprint reader on Touch ID iPhones stops working, Face ID is disabled, no Apple Pay, no Apple Music, etc. Then, it would just be your smartphone without Apple on it.
    edited December 2021 dope_ahminewatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 30
    I don’t see the issue with Nvidia buying ARM. If authorities are so concerned they can attach conditions to the sale. A big one would be that existing licensees are guaranteed their current agreements would continue.
    zimmermann9secondkox2
  • Reply 9 of 30
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 2,519member
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 

    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.

    Waaaaaaaahhhhhh.

    Its your iPhone, but you only have a license to use the software on it. I mean, this has only been mentioned countless times over the years when talking about computers/software and ownership.
    QFT.

    sure, it’s “your” iPhone once you buy it. So go make your own OS and enjoy!

    Meanwhile back in reality, the iPhone is just a lovely brick without the software and apple owns that software. Notice how all OS updates are free? That’s because you don’t own them, apple does. Part of the purchase price of an iPhone is a license to use that OS and its many updates. 

    Back on topic, yay FTC! This is a clear case where the government should get involved. 
    williamlondonsamrodrobabakillroyrob53olswatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 30
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,000member
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 

    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.

    Waaaaaaaahhhhhh.

    Its your iPhone, but you only have a license to use the software on it. I mean, this has only been mentioned countless times over the years when talking about computers/software and ownership.
    Well, a phone without an OS is a dead duck floating in the water and phones are sold under the legal condition of being fit to serve the purpose they are designed for.

    That makes iPhone + iOS inseparable and the notion that the phone belongs to the owner but the OS does not, a bit of a problem if that fact isn't openly made known to the purchaser in clear and simple terms.

    In the same way that carriers were obliged to unlock phones so that users could use them with other operators once contractual obligations had been met, a case could be made for users not to be tied, via software from manufacturers, to devices they own.

    'Hiding' the requirements in ToS would definitely not be enough in the EU if someone were to make a complaint on the issue. 
    muthuk_vanalingamGeorgeBMac9secondkox2
  • Reply 11 of 30
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,343member
    avon b7 said:
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 
    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.
    Waaaaaaaahhhhhh.

    Its your iPhone, but you only have a license to use the software on it. I mean, this has only been mentioned countless times over the years when talking about computers/software and ownership.
    Well, a phone without an OS is a dead duck floating in the water and phones are sold under the legal condition of being fit to serve the purpose they are designed for.

    That makes iPhone + iOS inseparable and the notion that the phone belongs to the owner but the OS does not, a bit of a problem if that fact isn't openly made known to the purchaser in clear and simple terms.

    In the same way that carriers were obliged to unlock phones so that users could use them with other operators once contractual obligations had been met, a case could be made for users not to be tied, via software from manufacturers, to devices they own.

    'Hiding' the requirements in ToS would definitely not be enough in the EU if someone were to make a complaint on the issue. 
    Is it all that different from a music CD, where the purchaser owns the physical disc, but only a license to listen to the songs, not to broadcast, modify, resell etc?  Unless the music is itself out of copyright, and therefore analogous to open source.  Customers seem to understand that just fine.

    The carrier argument was a regulatory intervention because of the bit you mention "contractual obligations being met", which meant that carriers had no ongoing justification for the hardware to be locked.  

    There's no contract to license iOS though, it's perpetually not yours, but you are also perpetually able to remove it from your iPhone and replace it with other software, if you so choose.  The fact that an alternative operating system for iPhones doesn't really exist (Android can run on it, but in a semi-functional way afaik) isn't Apple's problem.  

    I guess they could make it easier to install such a replacement OS, but if the alternative OS doesn't exist and the public appetite for it doesn't seem particularly keen, then what's the point.

    GeorgeBMac9secondkox2robabakillroywatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 30
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 

    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.
    It sounds like you should have bought a different device. Your post sounds like buying a Nintendo when you wanted a PC.
    edited December 2021 williamlondon9secondkox2robabakillroysdw2001watto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 30
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,000member
    crowley said:
    avon b7 said:
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 
    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.
    Waaaaaaaahhhhhh.

    Its your iPhone, but you only have a license to use the software on it. I mean, this has only been mentioned countless times over the years when talking about computers/software and ownership.
    Well, a phone without an OS is a dead duck floating in the water and phones are sold under the legal condition of being fit to serve the purpose they are designed for.

    That makes iPhone + iOS inseparable and the notion that the phone belongs to the owner but the OS does not, a bit of a problem if that fact isn't openly made known to the purchaser in clear and simple terms.

    In the same way that carriers were obliged to unlock phones so that users could use them with other operators once contractual obligations had been met, a case could be made for users not to be tied, via software from manufacturers, to devices they own.

    'Hiding' the requirements in ToS would definitely not be enough in the EU if someone were to make a complaint on the issue. 
    Is it all that different from a music CD, where the purchaser owns the physical disc, but only a license to listen to the songs, not to broadcast, modify, resell etc?  Unless the music is itself out of copyright, and therefore analogous to open source.  Customers seem to understand that just fine.

    The carrier argument was a regulatory intervention because of the bit you mention "contractual obligations being met", which meant that carriers had no ongoing justification for the hardware to be locked.  

    There's no contract to license iOS though, it's perpetually not yours, but you are also perpetually able to remove it from your iPhone and replace it with other software, if you so choose.  The fact that an alternative operating system for iPhones doesn't really exist (Android can run on it, but in a semi-functional way afaik) isn't Apple's problem.  

    I guess they could make it easier to install such a replacement OS, but if the alternative OS doesn't exist and the public appetite for it doesn't seem particularly keen, then what's the point.

    The CD analogy isn't an adequate fit for this situation. Audio CDs are bought 'as is' and do not require anything other than industry standard equipment to play the music. They aren't devices which are subject to changes in functionality over time and the 'software' required to play them hardcoded into player devices.

    There is no licence per se involved with music CD contents (at least not one that has to be accepted on use). Music CDs can, and are, played in public and on the radio but there are special licences for those cases (not with the CD itself but rather with the different companies managing the rights of the artists themselves.

    In terms of other usage (depending on where you live and the different types of legislation) ripping or copying CDs is perfectly legal as long as you aren't doing it for personal financial gain. It's one of the reasons for example why you really can't buy hard disks, CD-R/RW or any storage media in Spain without paying a fee on top of the base price for precisely that usage. That fee can be reclaimed if you can prove that the disk was never used for copying content covered by certain digital rights.

    However, the point wasn't so much a case of comparison or analogies but rather the notification to the user of the existence of clauses in ToS and if they can be considered valid notification methods. 

    We have already seen a ruling from the top EU courts on Spanish mortgage 'floor clauses' that made it crystal clear that including a clause (even with it still being a 'legal' clause in itself) in a mortgage contract was not enough (even if the clause was read out to the person signing the contract by public notary) and that the banks had to be able to demonstrate that the person signing the contract was aware of the implications and that the limitations had been spelt out in clear and simple terms for the consumer. 

    That decision cost the Spanish banks billions. 

    If someone were to bring the subject of Apple's OS restrictions up in the context of iPhone purchases and ownership, I think Apple could very likely find itself in a similar situation to the banks. 'Hiding' the relevant clauses in the ToS might not be deemed sufficient. 

    9secondkox2darkvader
  • Reply 14 of 30
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,089member
    deleted ...
    edited December 2021
  • Reply 15 of 30
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,089member
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 

    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.

    Be careful what you ask for.  You might get it.

    By enabling anything from anywhere to run on an iPhone you WILL end up with this real life example:

    How to spot the software that could be spying on you

    "Stalkerware is commercially available software that's used to spy on another person via their device - usually a phone - without their consent.

    It can allow the user to view someone else's messages, location, photos, files, and even eavesdrop on conversations in the phone's vicinity.
    ...

    "It's often linked to the most violent cases - because it is such a powerful tool of coercive control," she adds.

    Research suggests that proliferation of stalkerware is a growing problem: A study by Norton Labs found that the number of devices indicating that they had stalkerware installed rose by 63% between September 2020 and May 2021."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-59390778

    -------------------

    This spyware evolved from parental control apps that Apple suppressed -- braving the out cry of angry parents no longer able to track their kids, where they went, who they interacted with and what they said.

    If you like this stuff then go buy an Android. 
    Myself, I'll trade a little so called "freedom" for safety, security and privacy.





    maximarawatto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 30
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,089member
    I'm pleased and surprised that the FTC is taking the high road on this.
    NVIDIA purchasing ARM would make it a U.S. corporation subject to U.S. trade sanctions -- so we could decide which countries are able to produce goods using ARM technology (under the guise of "national security").
    maximarawatto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 30
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 

    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.

    Waaaaaaaahhhhhh.

    Its your iPhone, but you only have a license to use the software on it. I mean, this has only been mentioned countless times over the years when talking about computers/software and ownership.
    So you are saying it's not really your iPhone if Apple can tell you what you can run on it in a license they never showed you before you bought it and no one ever reads? Putting things in license agreements that say you don't really own what you bought never do well when litigated. How many people has Apple sued for jailbreaking their own iPhones? I am guessing that number is somewhere around zero. This is because Apple knows that if it ever did go after someone for violating their precious license agreement that it is the license agreement that would get rejected.
    muthuk_vanalingamdarkvader
  • Reply 18 of 30
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 

    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.
    @darkvader ;
    What are you complaining about? There is no one disagreeing with you. It’s YOUR phone, so do what the heck YOU want with it. Throw it into a wall if YOU want. WE don’t care, and Apple doesn’t care.

    But don’t for a second think you can do whatever you want with Apple’s iOS. Because you for sure never bought that. If Apple says you are allowed to modify parts of it, by for ex installing certain apps inside of it, then that’s because they allow you to. The same thing goes for any other software from any other developer on YOUR smart phone or YOUR computer. When was the last time you complained about the rules Facebook set up regarding Facebook-installable apps? Or plugins for MS Office? Or skins in Fortnite?

    iOS comes preinstalled on YOUR iPhone, but if you don’t like the way it works, and the way Apple lets you use it, then you are free to install any other OS of your choice on YOUR iPhone. Heck, YOU could even make one YOURself. Just don’t expect anybody to assist you in that. It’s YOUR choice, YOUR device freedom, and YOUR consequences.

    Can you stop whining about nothing now, and get back on topic? You know, nVidia vs ARM etc.
    edited December 2021 williamlondonzimmermannrobabasdw2001watto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 30
    crowleycrowley Posts: 9,343member
    avon b7 said:
    crowley said:
    avon b7 said:
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 
    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.
    Waaaaaaaahhhhhh.

    Its your iPhone, but you only have a license to use the software on it. I mean, this has only been mentioned countless times over the years when talking about computers/software and ownership.
    Well, a phone without an OS is a dead duck floating in the water and phones are sold under the legal condition of being fit to serve the purpose they are designed for.

    That makes iPhone + iOS inseparable and the notion that the phone belongs to the owner but the OS does not, a bit of a problem if that fact isn't openly made known to the purchaser in clear and simple terms.

    In the same way that carriers were obliged to unlock phones so that users could use them with other operators once contractual obligations had been met, a case could be made for users not to be tied, via software from manufacturers, to devices they own.

    'Hiding' the requirements in ToS would definitely not be enough in the EU if someone were to make a complaint on the issue. 
    Is it all that different from a music CD, where the purchaser owns the physical disc, but only a license to listen to the songs, not to broadcast, modify, resell etc?  Unless the music is itself out of copyright, and therefore analogous to open source.  Customers seem to understand that just fine.

    The carrier argument was a regulatory intervention because of the bit you mention "contractual obligations being met", which meant that carriers had no ongoing justification for the hardware to be locked.  

    There's no contract to license iOS though, it's perpetually not yours, but you are also perpetually able to remove it from your iPhone and replace it with other software, if you so choose.  The fact that an alternative operating system for iPhones doesn't really exist (Android can run on it, but in a semi-functional way afaik) isn't Apple's problem.  

    I guess they could make it easier to install such a replacement OS, but if the alternative OS doesn't exist and the public appetite for it doesn't seem particularly keen, then what's the point.

    The CD analogy isn't an adequate fit for this situation. Audio CDs are bought 'as is' and do not require anything other than industry standard equipment to play the music. They aren't devices which are subject to changes in functionality over time and the 'software' required to play them hardcoded into player devices.

    There is no licence per se involved with music CD contents (at least not one that has to be accepted on use). Music CDs can, and are, played in public and on the radio but there are special licences for those cases (not with the CD itself but rather with the different companies managing the rights of the artists themselves.

    In terms of other usage (depending on where you live and the different types of legislation) ripping or copying CDs is perfectly legal as long as you aren't doing it for personal financial gain. It's one of the reasons for example why you really can't buy hard disks, CD-R/RW or any storage media in Spain without paying a fee on top of the base price for precisely that usage. That fee can be reclaimed if you can prove that the disk was never used for copying content covered by certain digital rights.

    However, the point wasn't so much a case of comparison or analogies but rather the notification to the user of the existence of clauses in ToS and if they can be considered valid notification methods. 

    We have already seen a ruling from the top EU courts on Spanish mortgage 'floor clauses' that made it crystal clear that including a clause (even with it still being a 'legal' clause in itself) in a mortgage contract was not enough (even if the clause was read out to the person signing the contract by public notary) and that the banks had to be able to demonstrate that the person signing the contract was aware of the implications and that the limitations had been spelt out in clear and simple terms for the consumer. 

    That decision cost the Spanish banks billions. 

    If someone were to bring the subject of Apple's OS restrictions up in the context of iPhone purchases and ownership, I think Apple could very likely find itself in a similar situation to the banks. 'Hiding' the relevant clauses in the ToS might not be deemed sufficient. 
    I doubt it.  You'd have to prove reasonable expectation, and Apple's reputation as a walled garden, and a large part of the history of mobile devices and embedded operating systems would work against you.  In addition, I'm not even sure that the ToS of iOS even says that you can't install software from other sources, it's just not something that Apple makes easy.  Your points about mortgages were about explicit legal barriers, whereas what iOS provides is more of an obstacle to the user path to doing something.  If the user jailbreaks their device they can install whatever they want.  Even if there is a license clause and it gets struck down, I'm not sure how much that will effect Apple providing an "official" path to sideloading or alternate app stores.

    And your point about CD and licenses is confused.  If you concede that you need special licensing for doing certain things then you accept that there is another license for doing anything else.  Your purchase of a music CD does not include a public or broadcast license, therefore it includes a more restricted license.  Your purchase of an iOS device does not mean that you can alter, package and resell iOS as your own work and no reasonable person would expect that, so it is clearly licensed.
  • Reply 20 of 30
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 2,684member
    darkvader said:
    rob53 said:
    If this acquisition is allowed it makes no sense why Apple’s App Store is being forced to open up. Apple has every right to run its products the way it wants to. Nvidia owning ARM affects multiple computing companies not just its own. 

    Nvidia owning ARM is a terrible idea, and should be stopped.

    And that has NOTHING AT ALL to do with Apple and their app store.  Apple has NO right to run MY iPhone the way it wants.  It's MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  And because it's MY iPhone and not Apple's iPhone, Apple should not be allowed to have any say whatsoever about what software I choose to run on MY iPhone.  If you want to only get software through Apple's app store on YOUR iPhone, that's your right.  But neither you nor Apple should have the ability to stop me from getting software from any source of my choosing.

    And the same thing goes for in-app purchases.  MY iPhone, not Apple's iPhone.  It's only Apple's until they sell it.  Then it's MINE, not Apple's any more.  It's well past time for Apple's app store monopoly to be busted.
    @darkvader ;
    What are you complaining about? There is no one disagreeing with you. It’s YOUR phone, so do what the heck YOU want with it. Throw it into a wall if YOU want. WE don’t care, and Apple doesn’t care.

    But don’t for a second think you can do whatever you want with Apple’s iOS. Because you for sure never bought that. If Apple says you are allowed to modify parts of it, by for ex installing certain apps inside of it, then that’s because they allow you to. The same thing goes for any other software from any other developer on YOUR smart phone or YOUR computer. When was the last time you complained about the rules Facebook set up regarding Facebook-installable apps? Or plugins for MS Office? Or skins in Fortnite?

    iOS comes preinstalled on YOUR iPhone, but if you don’t like the way it works, and the way Apple lets you use it, then you are free to install any other OS of your choice on YOUR iPhone. Heck, YOU could even make one YOURself. Just don’t expect anybody to assist you in that. It’s YOUR choice, YOUR device freedom, and YOUR consequences.

    Can you stop whining about nothing now, and get back on topic? You know, nVidia vs ARM etc.
    What he really wants is to be able to dictate to Apple what its operating system is allowed to do and what Apple's App Store Guidelines can contain. E.g. he wants to be able to run bitcoin mining even though that can physically damage the phone, but he doesn't want his warranty voided by his physical abuse of the phone in this way. I'm not sure who he wants to be able to control Apple's terms and licenses. Perhaps politicians, perhaps judges, perhaps referendums - he won't say. But notice that Apple is the only company he wants to be able to control. He never explains his principles and show how his desires would impact any other company besides Apple. He's just an Apple panboi. Look up "pan" for its verb meaning if you don't know what it means. 

    verb (pans, panned, panning[with object informal criticize (someone or something) severelythe movie was panned by the critics.


    robabadope_ahminewatto_cobra
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