The AirTag stalking problem is only partially Apple's problem, it's mostly law enforcement...

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 52
    chasm said:
    Thanks for this clear-headed article that succinctly outlines the problem and solution(s), Mike.

    It is infuriating when other media (including some Apple-oriented sites that really should know better) report stories on this and pretend as though Tile (still no anti-tracking features) has never existed. Indeed, Tile has just become a stalker's best friend -- having been bought by data collection company Life360! The anti-Apple slant of this reporting may actually be giving people the false impression that their non-Apple tracker stuff is safer/better when in fact that's the opposite!
    Apple is making an ass of itself, yet again. (Remember the recent previous incident, where they ended up with a mea culpa and pulled it? Anyone?). They had better fix this problem, yesterday, or end up with pie on their faces again.

    If you're going to sell privacy as your competitive advantage, then guess what, you'd bloody well better make that front-and-center to everything you sell, everything you do. Period.
    williamlondonOfer
  • Reply 22 of 52
    Only the stupidest of stalkers would use an Air Tag. 

    GPS cellular trackers are the smart stalkers tool.
    Wow. I don't think I've read a dumber argument in these forums in a long while: "Since there are suckier options, Apple's merely-sucky option is no big deal. Move along".
    williamlondongatorguy
  • Reply 23 of 52
    chasm said:
    Thanks for this clear-headed article that succinctly outlines the problem and solution(s), Mike.

    It is infuriating when other media (including some Apple-oriented sites that really should know better) report stories on this and pretend as though Tile (still no anti-tracking features) has never existed. Indeed, Tile has just become a stalker's best friend -- having been bought by data collection company Life360! The anti-Apple slant of this reporting may actually be giving people the false impression that their non-Apple tracker stuff is safer/better when in fact that's the opposite!
    Apple is making an ass of itself, yet again. (Remember the recent previous incident, where they ended up with a mea culpa and pulled it? Anyone?). They had better fix this problem, yesterday, or end up with pie on their faces again.

    If you're going to sell privacy as your competitive advantage, then guess what, you'd bloody well better make that front-and-center to everything you sell, everything you do. Period.
    What is the problem they need to fix yesterday?
    watto_cobramike1uraharacharlesatlasStrangeDaysjony0
  • Reply 24 of 52
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    Police are no longer there to protect either the peace or people.   They see themselves as defenders of the law and, in many cases, political ideology.

    Several decades ago people made fun of police corruption and laughed about the free donuts because they realized that they would be there to help and protect them if and when they needed it.  That is no longer the case.   There are now outside organizations separate from the police department who are training police in how to do their jobs.


    dewme
  • Reply 25 of 52
    So if I was to create some new product that could easily be used by one person to harm another I can just say that it's law enforcement's responsibility? Really? Let's bring back lawn darts!
    gatorguyMplsP
  • Reply 26 of 52
    chasm said:
    Thanks for this clear-headed article that succinctly outlines the problem and solution(s), Mike.

    It is infuriating when other media (including some Apple-oriented sites that really should know better) report stories on this and pretend as though Tile (still no anti-tracking features) has never existed. Indeed, Tile has just become a stalker's best friend -- having been bought by data collection company Life360! The anti-Apple slant of this reporting may actually be giving people the false impression that their non-Apple tracker stuff is safer/better when in fact that's the opposite!
    Apple is making an ass of itself, yet again. (Remember the recent previous incident, where they ended up with a mea culpa and pulled it? Anyone?). They had better fix this problem, yesterday, or end up with pie on their faces again.

    If you're going to sell privacy as your competitive advantage, then guess what, you'd bloody well better make that front-and-center to everything you sell, everything you do. Period.
    What is the problem they need to fix yesterday?
    Since you're apparently having trouble: protecting privacy.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 27 of 52
    chasm said:
    Thanks for this clear-headed article that succinctly outlines the problem and solution(s), Mike.

    It is infuriating when other media (including some Apple-oriented sites that really should know better) report stories on this and pretend as though Tile (still no anti-tracking features) has never existed. Indeed, Tile has just become a stalker's best friend -- having been bought by data collection company Life360! The anti-Apple slant of this reporting may actually be giving people the false impression that their non-Apple tracker stuff is safer/better when in fact that's the opposite!
    Apple is making an ass of itself, yet again. (Remember the recent previous incident, where they ended up with a mea culpa and pulled it? Anyone?). They had better fix this problem, yesterday, or end up with pie on their faces again.

    If you're going to sell privacy as your competitive advantage, then guess what, you'd bloody well better make that front-and-center to everything you sell, everything you do. Period.
    What is the problem they need to fix yesterday?
    Since you're apparently having trouble: protecting privacy.
    Don't be a dick.
    Stabitha_ChristieXedGeorgeBMacmike1charlesatlasStrangeDaysroundaboutnowjony0
  • Reply 28 of 52
    chasm said:
    Thanks for this clear-headed article that succinctly outlines the problem and solution(s), Mike.

    It is infuriating when other media (including some Apple-oriented sites that really should know better) report stories on this and pretend as though Tile (still no anti-tracking features) has never existed. Indeed, Tile has just become a stalker's best friend -- having been bought by data collection company Life360! The anti-Apple slant of this reporting may actually be giving people the false impression that their non-Apple tracker stuff is safer/better when in fact that's the opposite!
    Apple is making an ass of itself, yet again. (Remember the recent previous incident, where they ended up with a mea culpa and pulled it? Anyone?). They had better fix this problem, yesterday, or end up with pie on their faces again.

    If you're going to sell privacy as your competitive advantage, then guess what, you'd bloody well better make that front-and-center to everything you sell, everything you do. Period.
    What is the problem they need to fix yesterday?
    Since you're apparently having trouble: protecting privacy.
    I was genuinely curious what you thought the specific issue was and still haven’t the foggiest idea as “Protecting privacy” is fairly vague. Normally I’m willing to put effort into understanding people’s perspectives but given the personal attack I don’t imagine this will ever result in a product conversation. Best of luck to you. 
    williamlondoncrowleyStrangeDaysstompyroundaboutnowjony0
  • Reply 29 of 52
    XedXed Posts: 2,461member
    chasm said:
    Thanks for this clear-headed article that succinctly outlines the problem and solution(s), Mike.

    It is infuriating when other media (including some Apple-oriented sites that really should know better) report stories on this and pretend as though Tile (still no anti-tracking features) has never existed. Indeed, Tile has just become a stalker's best friend -- having been bought by data collection company Life360! The anti-Apple slant of this reporting may actually be giving people the false impression that their non-Apple tracker stuff is safer/better when in fact that's the opposite!
    Apple is making an ass of itself, yet again. (Remember the recent previous incident, where they ended up with a mea culpa and pulled it? Anyone?). They had better fix this problem, yesterday, or end up with pie on their faces again.

    If you're going to sell privacy as your competitive advantage, then guess what, you'd bloody well better make that front-and-center to everything you sell, everything you do. Period.
    What is the problem they need to fix yesterday?
    Since you're apparently having trouble: protecting privacy.
    I was genuinely curious what you thought the specific issue was and still haven’t the foggiest idea as “Protecting privacy” is fairly vague. Normally I’m willing to put effort into understanding people’s perspectives but given the personal attack I don’t imagine this will ever result in a product conversation. Best of luck to you. 
    Considering that Apple is the only one that tries to protect people from potential stalkers, even going so far as to include this protection on Android OS, I guess he’s talking about Apple Not protecting the skullduggery of stalkers. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    williamlondonmike1StrangeDays
  • Reply 30 of 52
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,889member
    This is not an absolution of Apple's responsibility in deterring stalking, and we think that Apple has a moral obligation to go a bit farther. 
    Exactly - If a product is being used for illegal or harmful purposes, a manufacturer has an obligation to prevent that to the extent possible.

    Apple Insider said: any producer of location-tracking devices should be required to implement anti-stalking features.  the1maximus said: It would be nice that if in the Find My app, you can detect the location of a stalking tag. That way if one was planted, it can easily be retrieved, deactivated and brought to law enforcement.  Yes to both of these. It seems that Apple could easily link an AirTag to an AppleID. If it were being used illicitly, the police could get a warrant and identify the owner.

    Is Apple getting singled out here? Yes, but it's a bit simplistic to ignore the other factors at play. Apple is one of the biggest tech companies in the world, so the introduction of AirTags instantly made the technology far more available and Apple's 'tracking network' is also orders of magnitude larger so suddenly tracking tags moved from a niche market to a mainstream product. And saying "Tile doesn't do it so Apple shouldn't have to either" is beside the point. They both should.

    I listened to a podcast a while ago that talked about social and legal implications of technology and how companies need to actually spend some effort thinking about how their product could potentially be misused and design to mitigate those issues. Apple clearly thought about this ahead of time. They weren't negligent but it 
    sounds like they still didn't completely anticipate every nefarious use.
    edited January 2022 gatorguyOfer
  • Reply 31 of 52
    XedXed Posts: 2,461member
    MplsP said:
    This is not an absolution of Apple's responsibility in deterring stalking, and we think that Apple has a moral obligation to go a bit farther. 
    Exactly - If a product is being used for illegal or harmful purposes, a manufacturer has an obligation to prevent that to the extent possible.

    any producer of location-tracking devices should be required to implement anti-stalking features. 
    It would be nice that if in the Find My app, you can detect the location of a stalking tag. That way if one was planted, it can easily be retrieved, deactivated and brought to law enforcement. 
    Yes to both of these. It seems that Apple could easily link an AirTag to an AppleID. If it were being used illicitly, the police could get a warrant and identify the owner.

    Is Apple getting singled out here? Yes, but it's a bit simplistic to ignore the other factors at play. Apple is one of the biggest tech companies in the world, so the introduction of AirTags instantly made the technology far more available and Apple's 'tracking network' is also orders of magnitude larger so suddenly tracking tags moved from a niche market to a mainstream product. And saying "Tile doesn't do it so Apple shouldn't have to either" is beside the point. They both should.

    I listened to a podcast a while ago that talked about social and legal implications of technology and how companies need to actually spend some effort thinking about how their product could potentially be misused and design to mitigate those issues. Apple clearly thought about this ahead of time. They weren't negligent but it sounds like they still didn't completely anticipate every nefarious use.
    How do you accurately consider every nefarious use and then proactively find reasonable countermeasures for them? Do you think you could?

    As previously mentioned, since these are designed to be away from your person it’s easy for someone to bogart and deactivate your tag thus making it useless as a way or finding a lost item. While I would love for people doing good to be able to quickly find nefarious trackers and deactivate them, how easy do you wish to make it for those doing harm to also be able to also find and disable trackers?

    Like all things in life (especially with technology) a balance must be met. If you have a solution that moves Apple even one step in the right direction then by all means send Tim Cook a well crafted email, but don’t put on blinkers to devise a solution to ‘a’ problem without considering the potential fallout. If you do, you’ll end up in the camp that thinks that Apple has a responsibly to build a backdoor into their OSes for law enforcement.
    edited January 2022 stompyGeorgeBMacroundaboutnow
  • Reply 32 of 52
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,778member
    stevebobs said:
    We have got ourselves some apple lovers here. While I agree that the media probably wants to make a story of this more than investigate the matter, this device apple made is dangerous. It leverages the entire apple ecosystem! You know, those 1 billion devices. What other device can tap into that? It's $30. Discreet. It has been shown that it's firmware can be hacked. Apple has released several new security measures since it came out. Why?? Cause it's so freaking easy to use it to track people. All I gotta do is go to Target. Yah it's tied to my ID but if I'm a stalker I don't care. Don't blame this on law enforcement. They were blindsided by a tracker expertly crafted by one the world's most capable companies. Wtf, mate? 
    You lost bro? This is an Apple site. See, it's right in the URL. 

    No, this device Apple made is not particularly dangerous, no more than any other tool. Where was your concern for Tiles? Or all the generic GPS trackers on Amazon? Oh yeah, you weren't concerned until Apple.
    edited January 2022 williamlondonGeorgeBMacroundaboutnowjony0
  • Reply 33 of 52
    stompystompy Posts: 407member
    stevebobs said:
    Xed said:
    stevebobs said:
    We have got ourselves some apple lovers here. While I agree that the media probably wants to make a story of this more than investigate the matter, this device apple made is dangerous. It leverages the entire apple ecosystem! You know, those 1 billion devices. What other device can tap into that? It's $30. Discreet. It has been shown that it's firmware can be hacked. Apple has released several new security measures since it came out. Why?? Cause it's so freaking easy to use it to track people. All I gotta do is go to Target. Yah it's tied to my ID but if I'm a stalker I don't care. Don't blame this on law enforcement. They were blindsided by a tracker expertly crafted by one the world's most capable companies. Wtf, mate? 
    Apple includes an anti-stalking feature to their AirTags = Apple bad
    No one else has this feature despite cheap and simple easy to track people without their knowledge has existed for long time = It's still Apple's fault

    🙄
    I mean I'm not super passionate about this argument. I don't know if actual criminals will ever figure out a way to gainfully jailbreak airtags.

    But one thing to consider, I have no idea how or where I could buy a good stalking device. Like I know tile is an alternative but I think we airtags and the kind of devices this thread is referring to are much more capable. 

    But buying an airtag is easy. Yah dedicated criminals had access to these tools for a long time. But your regular dumb, jealous, angry, or resentful average person wants convenience. Airtags give them incredible convenience. Yah anybody can make em. But only apple has the ubiqituous network that enables such accurate tracking. 

    Are these trackers convenient enough for you?
    williamlondon
  • Reply 34 of 52
    nicholfdnicholfd Posts: 824member
    Maybe Apple should ‘tie’ the AirTags to a verified Apple ID. That way it should be an easier way to track back the perp ?
    Maybe you should learn more before you post - they are tied to an Apple ID, or you can't use them!

    As far as a "verified" Apple ID" - what does that even mean? 
  • Reply 35 of 52
    nicholfdnicholfd Posts: 824member
    So if I was to create some new product that could easily be used by one person to harm another I can just say that it's law enforcement's responsibility? Really? Let's bring back lawn darts!
    As usually - WTF does this have to do with this article?  

    You could create any new product that could be used to bludgeon anyone to death - should all "new" products be banned?

    It'd be really nice if you would just GTFO of here.
    roundaboutnowwilliamlondon
  • Reply 36 of 52
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    MplsP said:
    This is not an absolution of Apple's responsibility in deterring stalking, and we think that Apple has a moral obligation to go a bit farther. 
    Exactly - If a product is being used for illegal or harmful purposes, a manufacturer has an obligation to prevent that to the extent possible.

    ....
    A manufacturer has an obligation to prevent its product from being used for harmful or illegal purposes?
    Actually, that argument was addressed with guns and the answer was quite the opposite:  The manufacturer bears zero responsibility, none, for any and all harm their product produces.   And, that is explicitly directed at products (handguns, assault weapons, etc.) designed exclusively for harmful or illegal purposes.

    That is stupidity at its finest.  But it is the law of our land.
    As Churchill said:  "Americans always do the right thing -- after they try everything else."
    muthuk_vanalingamroundaboutnowdewmejony0
  • Reply 37 of 52
    Fred257 said:
    As a victim myself of malignant narcissist psychopaths there are no modern laws on the books that can keep up with manipulators. AirTags are a problem but manipulators use so many different ways to stalk you most people have no idea. If you get a restraining order they can ask or hire someone else to stalk you. Technology is just one of many ways stalkers can find out where you are. Laws need to change. 
    Laws don’t stop cops from being lazy fvckers.
    edited January 2022 williamlondon
  • Reply 38 of 52
    22july201322july2013 Posts: 3,553member
    Do modern chop shops have Faraday cages around them?
  • Reply 39 of 52
    nicholfd said:
    So if I was to create some new product that could easily be used by one person to harm another I can just say that it's law enforcement's responsibility? Really? Let's bring back lawn darts!
    As usually - WTF does this have to do with this article?  

    You could create any new product that could be used to bludgeon anyone to death - should all "new" products be banned?

    It'd be really nice if you would just GTFO of here.
    Agreed, never met anyone so wrong about everything who still refuses to understand that one issue with his posts and unashamedly and unapologetically still posts shit, every time.
  • Reply 40 of 52
    y2any2an Posts: 184member
    This is really passing the buck, and it applies to anyone offering a tracking device, not just Apple. Tags create new vectors for stalking and other nefarious activities and manufacturers have a responsibility to make safe products. Transferring that to the police (often overstretched in any case) places a cost burden on them without any compensation. This simply doesn’t work. Technical solutions need to be created such as immediate alerting of potential stalking and suppression of data to the tag owner until there is a positive action to confirm the tracking is ok. Less convenient for the tag owner, but rightfully so. 
    williamlondon
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