5G expansion will cause 'catastrophic' economic crisis, airlines claim

Posted:
in General Discussion
The CEOs of major U.S. airlines like Delta and United complained on Tuesday that the planned rollout of 5G C-Band spectrum on Wednesday will cause "catastrophic disruption" to the economy -- and strand Americans overseas.

Airlines warn of problems from C-Band 5G spectrum
Airlines warn of problems from C-Band 5G spectrum


AT&T and Verizon are set to deploy new C-Band 5G spectrum on Wednesday, following a two-week pause after being asked by the Federal Aviation Administration to delay the rollout. According to the FAA, the spectrum could interfere with certain aircraft cockpit systems.

On Tuesday, the chief executives of eleven passenger airline and cargo carriers said that the rollout could cause "chaos" and "potentially strand tens of thousands of Americans overseas" because it would render a significant number of aircraft unusable, Reuters has reported.

"Unless our major hubs are cleared to fly, the vast majority of the traveling and shipping public will essentially be grounded," the letter reads, adding later that "the nation's commerce will grind to a halt."

Late on Monday, airlines were said to be considering whether to begin cancelling some flights scheduled to arrive on Wednesday.

The major concern from the FAA and airlines is that the 5G C-Band spectrum -- which is well-suited to aid in the expansion of 5G service -- could cause issues with sensitive aircraft components like altimeters or systems that aid in low-visibility operations.

However, AT&T and Verizon have countered those arguments. The carriers say that the C-Band spectrum is already used in countries like France with no reports of aircraft interference.

"The laws of physics are the same in the United States and France," the CEOs of AT&T and Verizon said in a January letter. "If U.S. airlines are permitted to operate flights every day in France, then the same operating conditions should allow them to do so in the United States."

The letter from the airlines was sent to senior government officials like Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg, FAA Administrator Steve Dickson, and Federal Communications Commission Chair Jessica Rosenworcel.

Read on AppleInsider
«1

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 35
    genovellegenovelle Posts: 1,357member
    The carriers are using Europe as a shield but never remember to mention the fact that European carriers using 5G do so a much lower power ratings that they are here. 
    retrogustoapplguy
  • Reply 2 of 35
    “Catastrophic Disruption”
    HAHHAAHAHHAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!
    Nice try, airlines. This 'prediction' has about as much chance of happening as with all the planes falling out of the skies back on January 1, 2000.
    longpathbaconstang
  • Reply 3 of 35
    If there's such a danger, the airlines/FAA should take their case to court and get an injunction, not just issue press releases.
    longpathrob53SoundJudgmenturaharabaconstanganantksundaramjony0
  • Reply 4 of 35
    Military experience with millimeter wave radar says otherwise and such radars pump out a lot more energy than a smartphone. If what they are alleging was true, civilian planes would be crashing every time a military helicopter illuminated it with its radar. Strangely, I can’t find a single instance of this ever occurring. Could it be that like many bureaucrats, they are fear mongering to maintain and grow their power? No, it couldn’t be that…
    edited January 18 SoundJudgmentviclauyycbaconstangdewmeanantksundaram
  • Reply 5 of 35
    genovelle said:
    The carriers are using Europe as a shield but never remember to mention the fact that European carriers using 5G do so a much lower power ratings that they are here. 
    Both are tiny compared to millimeter wave radar used for years by militaries on multiple continents. Perhaps you can find an example of such radar crashing a civilian aircraft; but, I couldn’t. Please, by all means, if you can find such an example, share it here.
    SoundJudgmentviclauyycdewmeanantksundaram
  • Reply 6 of 35
    longpath said:
    Military experience with millimeter wave radar says otherwise and such radars pump out a lot more energy than a smartphone. If what they are alleging was true, civilian planes would be crashing every time a military helicopter illuminated it with its radar. Strangely, I can’t find a single instance of this ever occurring. Could it be that like many bureaucrats, they are fear mongering to maintain and grow their power? No, it couldn’t be that…
    US government is very inept in science. Numerous state department employees complained about the Havana syndrome. And Blinken said he still has no foggiest idea how it happened. They only know to blame foreign nations they considered as adversary. 

    They don't know how to blame themselves. Twenty years ago I read news article that when the President is visiting some places, some garage doors in residential area will open anonymously due to the radio waves emitted by security equipment. 
  • Reply 7 of 35
    This is fun to watch. It is the overinflated promises of 5G vs the head in the sand attitude of the aviation industry.
    lkrupp
  • Reply 8 of 35
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,716member
    An explanation by a long time ATP, and the RTCA 274-20 report;

    https://www.rtca.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/SC-239-5G-Interference-Assessment-Report_274-20-PMC-2073_accepted_changes.pdf




    I'm reasonably certain that the posters above don't have an understanding of the problem, so here's your opportunity to learn.


    edited January 18 emig647larryjwStrangeDaysMplsPapplguyjony0
  • Reply 9 of 35
    mfrydmfryd Posts: 139member
    longpath said:
    Military experience with millimeter wave radar says otherwise and such radars pump out a lot more energy than a smartphone. If what they are alleging was true, civilian planes would be crashing every time a military helicopter illuminated it with its radar. Strangely, I can’t find a single instance of this ever occurring. Could it be that like many bureaucrats, they are fear mongering to maintain and grow their power? No, it couldn’t be that…
    It's not a fair comparison.  First of all, the issue is not so much the emissions from the smartphones, but the emissions from the cellular towers.

    Secondly, no one is suggesting that the 5G signals will cause planes to "fall out of the sky".  The fear is that the 5G will interfere with the highly precise altimeters used for landing.   These altimeters are a critical part of the process when landing in many IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) situations.   If a plane is cruising along at 30,000 feet, interference with this altimeter isn't critical.

    Now, I am not commenting on whether or not the 5G cellular service is actually a problem for the planes.  I am merely pointing out that experience with military helicopter radar is not applicable to this situation.
    tmayMplsPmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 10 of 35
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 911member
    Why are the airlines arguing "could" and Verizon and AT&T arguing "will not"?

    This is "simple" physics, maybe engineering. The answer is clear -- perform the experiments. 

    It's not a matter for the courts, FAA, or FCC. It's not a matter of policy or subject to argument -- just a matter of exact science. 
    viclauyycdewmeanantksundaram
  • Reply 11 of 35
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,716member
    larryjw said:
    Why are the airlines arguing "could" and Verizon and AT&T arguing "will not"?

    This is "simple" physics, maybe engineering. The answer is clear -- perform the experiments. 

    It's not a matter for the courts, FAA, or FCC. It's not a matter of policy or subject to argument -- just a matter of exact science. 
    The RTCA has performed "simulations" for the aviation industry, but crickets from the telecom industry.
  • Reply 12 of 35

    Airlines and manufactures are arguing that the science proves that under test conditions it’s possible for this interference to happen.

    The 5G people are arguing that real world trials say it’s very unlikely to happen.

    As nothing is “no risk” it’s a question of what is the acceptable risk, which is a large variable and subject to opinion.

    It’s more a question of liability than science, the air industry could do with offloading some of their expensive risks onto the rich TEC industry.

    Good to be able to blame a plane falling out of the sky on something other than pilot error or design flaw.

    patchythepirate
  • Reply 13 of 35
    rob53rob53 Posts: 2,919member
    It would be easy to test the airlines’ issues with 5G. Simply install test equipment on the planes and around the airports to monitor activity on this band. Airlines, like the military, want something nobody else can use so they don’t have to do any real world testing and can use marginally designed hardware (in other words cheap stuff). I’m sure AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile are equipped and ready to do thus testing. 
    SoundJudgmentviclauyycanantksundaram
  • Reply 14 of 35
    I'm surprised by how many folks here are siding with the telcos on this one. These companies have a long history of absolutely making up anything to forward their agenda and their bottom lines.

    It's true that the aviation industry is also motivated by money, but unlike telcos they also have to take passenger safety very seriously. And does anyone here remember the other science-driven industry that objected to hasty 5G rollouts, the weather forecasters? 

    I think the claims of telcos should be taken with extreme skepticism. 
    tmayStrangeDayspatchythepirateMplsPmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 15 of 35
    Why is it only ATT and Verizon are mentioned. I live about a mike from PIE and am using full bars of TMO 5G U/C, so does this mean TMO is using different 5G technology and is not being targeted/called out by US airlines.
    dhawkins541
  • Reply 16 of 35
    mfryd said:
    longpath said:
    Military experience with millimeter wave radar says otherwise and such radars pump out a lot more energy than a smartphone. If what they are alleging was true, civilian planes would be crashing every time a military helicopter illuminated it with its radar. Strangely, I can’t find a single instance of this ever occurring. Could it be that like many bureaucrats, they are fear mongering to maintain and grow their power? No, it couldn’t be that…
    It's not a fair comparison.  First of all, the issue is not so much the emissions from the smartphones, but the emissions from the cellular towers.

    Secondly, no one is suggesting that the 5G signals will cause planes to "fall out of the sky".  The fear is that the 5G will interfere with the highly precise altimeters used for landing.   These altimeters are a critical part of the process when landing in many IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) situations.   If a plane is cruising along at 30,000 feet, interference with this altimeter isn't critical.

    Now, I am not commenting on whether or not the 5G cellular service is actually a problem for the planes.  I am merely pointing out that experience with military helicopter radar is not applicable to this situation.
    5G towers have shorter effective range than 4G. The strength of 5G signals could be made very small for landing aircraft. If the aircraft try to land on top of a 5G tower, this is another story. 
    viclauyycbaconstang
  • Reply 17 of 35
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,017member
    longpath said:
    Military experience with millimeter wave radar says otherwise and such radars pump out a lot more energy than a smartphone. If what they are alleging was true, civilian planes would be crashing every time a military helicopter illuminated it with its radar. Strangely, I can’t find a single instance of this ever occurring. Could it be that like many bureaucrats, they are fear mongering to maintain and grow their power? No, it couldn’t be that…
    These are private company, commercial airline executives. By definition not bureaucrats. Nor are they growing or maintaining power, as they don't govern. They're CEOs responsible for safety of their aircraft and the profits tied to that safety.
    edited January 18 tmayMplsPbaconstangapplguymuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 18 of 35
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,716member


    and;

    https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-major-us-airline-ceos-urge-action-avoid-catastrophic-5g-flight-2022-01-17/

    The airlines added that flight restrictions will not be limited to poor weather operations.

    "Multiple modern safety systems on aircraft will be deemed unusable causing a much larger problem than what we knew... Airplane manufacturers have informed us that there are huge swaths of the operating fleet that may need to be indefinitely grounded."

    One area of concern is whether some or all Boeing 777s will be unable to land at some key U.S. airports after 5G service starts, as well as some Boeing cargo planes, airline officials told Reuters.

    The airlines urged action to ensure "5G is deployed except when towers are too close to airport runways until the FAA can determine how that can be safely accomplished without catastrophic disruption."

    The FAA said on Sunday it had cleared an estimated 45% of the U.S. commercial airplane fleet to perform low-visibility landings at many airports where 5G C-band will be deployed and they expect to issue more approvals before Wednesday. The airlines noted on Monday that the list did not include many large airports.

    Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.co
    and yet another story;

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43917/the-5g-fiasco-from-an-airline-pilots-point-of-view
    edited January 18
  • Reply 19 of 35
    tmay said:


    and;

    https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-major-us-airline-ceos-urge-action-avoid-catastrophic-5g-flight-2022-01-17/

    The airlines added that flight restrictions will not be limited to poor weather operations.

    "Multiple modern safety systems on aircraft will be deemed unusable causing a much larger problem than what we knew... Airplane manufacturers have informed us that there are huge swaths of the operating fleet that may need to be indefinitely grounded."

    One area of concern is whether some or all Boeing 777s will be unable to land at some key U.S. airports after 5G service starts, as well as some Boeing cargo planes, airline officials told Reuters.

    The airlines urged action to ensure "5G is deployed except when towers are too close to airport runways until the FAA can determine how that can be safely accomplished without catastrophic disruption."

    The FAA said on Sunday it had cleared an estimated 45% of the U.S. commercial airplane fleet to perform low-visibility landings at many airports where 5G C-band will be deployed and they expect to issue more approvals before Wednesday. The airlines noted on Monday that the list did not include many large airports.

    Register now for FREE unlimited access to Reuters.co
    and yet another story;

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43917/the-5g-fiasco-from-an-airline-pilots-point-of-view
    This is pseudoscience. Why can't Boeing do a real test and show us the data? They just talk and talk. 
    anantksundaram
  • Reply 20 of 35
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,853member
    This is clearly nothing but a technique to distract from the thousands of staffing-driven flight cancellations.  There is no evidence that this band of 5G interferes with aircraft systems.  None.  Heck, there was more evidence that my flip phone from 20 years ago or something. And that wasn’t much.  
    kingofsomewherehot
Sign In or Register to comment.