Publishers back big tech antitrust bills, as long as they're excluded

Posted:
in General Discussion
A group including some of the US' largest publishers has backed the Senate Judiciary Committee's bills aimed at curbing antitrust actions -- assuming they don't get lumped in with Apple, Google, and others

U.S. Capitol Building. Credit: Alejandro Barba/Unsplash
U.S. Capitol Building. Credit: Alejandro Barba/Unsplash


As the Senate Judiciary advances its Open Markets Act, the Digital Content Next (DCN) group has written to support the move. The group, whose members range from the New York Times, to the Associated Press, also back the bill preventing Big Tech firms from giving their own businesses preferential treatment.

According to Reuters, the group wrote to Judiciary Committee Chairman Dick Durbin, a Democrat, and Senator Chuck Grassley, Republican.

"Platforms should be able to moderate their services to protect consumers, police IP theft and prevent security lapses," says the letter by DCN executives Jason Kint and Chris Pedigo. "However, some dominant platforms have leveraged their privileged status as gatekeeper to unfairly compete in other markets."

Reuters says that the members of the publishing group see Google as unfairly siphoning off ad revenues. DCN wants to see platform's abilities to do this curtailed, but its members are concerned about the bills being applied to the publishers.

DCN has not published the letter, so it's not yet known how it raises this concern about its members coming under the new regulations for large firms. However, that membership does include large-scale companies such as Disney, Warners, Vox, and the Boston Globe, that could conceivably meet the definitions of Big Tech, and certainly count as acquirers of competition.

The group has also previously criticized how Apple prevents publishers having direct access to the readers of its publications.

"Paradoxically, Apple's fees and anti-competitive practices push companies away from direct audience revenue," the group said in a 2020 release, "and toward the murky world of digital advertising where a publisher doesn't have to take a 30% haircut on all customer revenue and keeps all of the upside from its advertising earnings.

"In some ways, Apple's behavior actually works to the disadvantage of companies looking to follow their lead on consumer trust," it said at the time.

Separately, DCN has previously backed the Coalition for App Fairness in wanting App Store regulation.

Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 15
    y2any2an Posts: 196member
    Publishers have a global cartel thanks to archaic copyright laws and have the gall to ask for restraints against tech?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 15
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    edited February 2022 NoFliesOnMewatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 3 of 15
    darelrex said:
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    Retail has a much higher overhead 

    maybe if Apple charged 12% people wouldn’t care as much

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 15
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,074member
    darelrex said:
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    Retail has a much higher overhead 

    maybe if Apple charged 12% people wouldn’t care as much

    Which is why retail mark up is much more than 30%. Retail mark up on a book is around 40%. 

    But as the author, you not only have to account for the retailer mark up when setting the price of your book, you have to account for the wholesaler and/or distributor cost. Which might add another 40% of the retail price to your cost.  

    Which means that if you want to sell your book retail for $50, the book store will only pay you about $36 for it and if you go through a wholesaler it will cost you another 15% of the retail price of your book as the wholesaler has to get their cut. So now you're looking at only getting $29 per book. But if you also use a distributer to help market your book, the distributer can charge up to 30% of the retail price of the book. That might be another $15 you have to pay to get your book to the book store shelf.  So you can end up with less than $15, for every book that sells for $50.  Gee, that comes to 30/70 split. Only the author is getting to keep  the 30. 

    Here's an interesting read on how books goes from the author to the book store shelf.

    https://www.tckpublishing.com/difference-between-retail-wholesale-and-distribution/

    Selling software at retail is just as costly. 

    All of a sudden, paying Apple (or Google) a 30% commission, sounds pretty cheap.
    darelrexwatto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 5 of 15
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    davidw said:
    darelrex said:
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    Retail has a much higher overhead 

    maybe if Apple charged 12% people wouldn’t care as much

    Which is why retail mark up is much more than 30%. Retail mark up on a book is around 40%. 

    But as the author, you not only have to account for the retailer mark up when setting the price of your book, you have to account for the wholesaler and/or distributor cost. Which might add another 40% of the retail price to your cost.  

    Which means that if you want to sell your book retail for $50, the book store will only pay you about $36 for it and if you go through a wholesaler it will cost you another 15% of the retail price of your book as the wholesaler has to get their cut. So now you're looking at only getting $29 per book. But if you also use a distributer to help market your book, the distributer can charge up to 30% of the retail price of the book. That might be another $15 you have to pay to get your book to the book store shelf.  So you can end up with less than $15, for every book that sells for $50.  Gee, that comes to 30/70 split. Only the author is getting to keep  the 30. 

    Here's an interesting read on how books goes from the author to the book store shelf.

    https://www.tckpublishing.com/difference-between-retail-wholesale-and-distribution/

    Selling software at retail is just as costly. 

    All of a sudden, paying Apple (or Google) a 30% commission, sounds pretty cheap.
    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 6 of 15
    crowley said:

    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    Yet somehow, Epic's Fortnite is on many different platforms. And somehow, 75% of Steam's top thousand games (80% of their top hundred) now run on Linux, not just on Windows. And somehow, anyone who doesn't like Apple's decade-and-running policies doesn't have to create an iOS version of their game at all.
    watto_cobraDetnator
  • Reply 7 of 15
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    darelrex said:
    crowley said:

    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    Yet somehow, Epic's Fortnite is on many different platforms. And somehow, 75% of Steam's top thousand games (80% of their top hundred) now run on Linux, not just on Windows. And somehow, anyone who doesn't like Apple's decade-and-running policies doesn't have to create an iOS version of their game at all.
    You missed the point, the other platforms don't use the iOS binary.  Book sellers don't insist on selling a unique version of a book that can't be read outside of the bookstore.  Hence competition.  My book collection doesn't become useless when I go to another bookstore, and I can get books from any number of independent retailers and read them as many times as I want, whenever and wherever I want.

    They don't compare.  The app software market is much more complicated than that.  And saying to app developers "hey, at least you're not book authors" is silly.  They're not cocaine dealers either.  One industry's foibles don't negate complaints about a completely different industry.

    edited February 2022 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 8 of 15
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,074member
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    darelrex said:
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    Retail has a much higher overhead 

    maybe if Apple charged 12% people wouldn’t care as much

    Which is why retail mark up is much more than 30%. Retail mark up on a book is around 40%. 

    But as the author, you not only have to account for the retailer mark up when setting the price of your book, you have to account for the wholesaler and/or distributor cost. Which might add another 40% of the retail price to your cost.  

    Which means that if you want to sell your book retail for $50, the book store will only pay you about $36 for it and if you go through a wholesaler it will cost you another 15% of the retail price of your book as the wholesaler has to get their cut. So now you're looking at only getting $29 per book. But if you also use a distributer to help market your book, the distributer can charge up to 30% of the retail price of the book. That might be another $15 you have to pay to get your book to the book store shelf.  So you can end up with less than $15, for every book that sells for $50.  Gee, that comes to 30/70 split. Only the author is getting to keep  the 30. 

    Here's an interesting read on how books goes from the author to the book store shelf.

    https://www.tckpublishing.com/difference-between-retail-wholesale-and-distribution/

    Selling software at retail is just as costly. 

    All of a sudden, paying Apple (or Google) a 30% commission, sounds pretty cheap.
    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    You are completely misunderstanding the requirements of the DRM that is on nearly all eBooks.  You don't really think that if the top ten NY Times best seller booklist was on sale at the Apple iBook Store, that some one else can't buy those same  best selling books for a Kindle on Amazon? 

    What Apple is saying (and you are completely misunderstanding) is that any iBook you create using Apple DRM iBook tools can only be sold in the Apple iBook Store. That is NOT the same as saying that the author can not create an Android version of that book and sell it on Google Book or create an Amazon Kindle version of that book and sell on Amazon.

    Amazon has the same DRM restriction. You can not buy an Amazon Kindle ebook in the Apple iBook Store. But you can buy the iBook version of the same book. (That's if the author wants to sell an iBook version.) And you can not buy that iBook version on Amazon. All because of the DRM that publishers require. 

    It's only the iBook version of the eBook, that can not be sold anywhere else because of the DRM. And for the obvious reason, iBooks do not work on any other companies devices. Why would anyone buy an iBook for their Kindle? Understand now?

    But I imagine that any eBook store can pay authors for an exclusive deal where their ebook are only available in their stores. Like they do with music, but usually for a limited time. That exclusive deal is the author's choice to make. 

    BTW- there are software that will remove the DRM on ebooks, so one can read a Kindle Book on an iPad or an iBook on a Kindle or any eBook on any device. It might not be legal but the eBook DRM removal software can easily be bought and some are free.  

    https://mapsystemsindia.com/resources/how-to-remove-drm-from-ebook.html
  • Reply 9 of 15
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,074member
    crowley said:
    darelrex said:
    crowley said:

    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    Yet somehow, Epic's Fortnite is on many different platforms. And somehow, 75% of Steam's top thousand games (80% of their top hundred) now run on Linux, not just on Windows. And somehow, anyone who doesn't like Apple's decade-and-running policies doesn't have to create an iOS version of their game at all.
    You missed the point, the other platforms don't use the iOS binary.  Book sellers don't insist on selling a unique version of a book that can't be read outside of the bookstore.  Hence competition.  My book collection doesn't become useless when I go to another bookstore, and I can get books from any number of independent retailers and read them as many times as I want, whenever and wherever I want.

    They don't compare.  The app software market is much more complicated than that.  And saying to app developers "hey, at least you're not book authors" is silly.  They're not cocaine dealers either.  One industry's foibles don't negate complaints about a completely different industry.

    https://mybookcave.com/what-is-ebook-drm-and-how-does-it-affect-you/

    It's not the iOS binary that prevent iBooks from working on other devices, it's the DRM. And it is not there because of the "bookseller", Apple.  It's the authors and publishers that insist on the DRM, if eBook stores wants to sell their eBooks.

    The difference between your hardbound books bought at a retail book store and the digital downloaded one with DRM is that it would be very difficult and costly for you to scan every page of a book, print it and bound it, so you can give it someone else to read. You have to lend that person your copy and be without it while it's loaned out.  But it would only cost pennies to make another digital copy of the downloaded eBook without the DRM and you would still retain your copy. With DRM, you would have to lend your friend the device where you keep your eBook library, if you want to let your friend read your eBook. 

    Lose your book on the bus or anywhere else, it's gone. Lose your Kindle or iDevice or HD crash, Amazon and Apple will replace the eBooks you purchased from them.

    Go on vacation and you might only be able to bring along several books you bought, that you might want to read. With eBooks, you can bring every book you bought.

    So long as you don't close your account and be sure to leave the password with some one, your eBooks can last for generations. So long as Amazon or Apple are still in business. And if they do go out of business, most likely they will provide a way to automatically remove the DRM. But that process already exist.

    Yes, hardbound books from a retail bookstore are different from eBooks. eBooks are not for everyone but then again neither are hardbound books. And I still prefer to buy CDs, rather than to download or stream, my music. But digital downloaded music and streaming are not without their merits.   

    No one was comparing an app developer to an author. The comparison was between a publisher (author)  selling a hardbound book in a retail store and selling it in an eBook store.  As is the comparison of an app developer selling their software in an app store vs selling their software on a physical media at a retail store like Best Buy. Selling apps in an app store is way less complicated than selling software in a retail store. Over 1B potential buyers have access to an app store, that is at their finger tip, anywhere, anytime. Can you say that about a retail store? 

    It took the iTunes Music Store to take the music industry out of the Stone Ages. Unfortunately, the book publishing industry are still living in caves. With the movie industry as neighbors.     
    edited February 2022 Detnator
  • Reply 10 of 15
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    darelrex said:
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    Retail has a much higher overhead 

    maybe if Apple charged 12% people wouldn’t care as much

    Which is why retail mark up is much more than 30%. Retail mark up on a book is around 40%. 

    But as the author, you not only have to account for the retailer mark up when setting the price of your book, you have to account for the wholesaler and/or distributor cost. Which might add another 40% of the retail price to your cost.  

    Which means that if you want to sell your book retail for $50, the book store will only pay you about $36 for it and if you go through a wholesaler it will cost you another 15% of the retail price of your book as the wholesaler has to get their cut. So now you're looking at only getting $29 per book. But if you also use a distributer to help market your book, the distributer can charge up to 30% of the retail price of the book. That might be another $15 you have to pay to get your book to the book store shelf.  So you can end up with less than $15, for every book that sells for $50.  Gee, that comes to 30/70 split. Only the author is getting to keep  the 30. 

    Here's an interesting read on how books goes from the author to the book store shelf.

    https://www.tckpublishing.com/difference-between-retail-wholesale-and-distribution/

    Selling software at retail is just as costly. 

    All of a sudden, paying Apple (or Google) a 30% commission, sounds pretty cheap.
    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    You are completely misunderstanding the requirements of the DRM that is on nearly all eBooks.  You don't really think that if the top ten NY Times best seller booklist was on sale at the Apple iBook Store, that some one else can't buy those same  best selling books for a Kindle on Amazon? 

    What Apple is saying (and you are completely misunderstanding) is that any iBook you create using Apple DRM iBook tools can only be sold in the Apple iBook Store. That is NOT the same as saying that the author can not create an Android version of that book and sell it on Google Book or create an Amazon Kindle version of that book and sell on Amazon.

    Amazon has the same DRM restriction. You can not buy an Amazon Kindle ebook in the Apple iBook Store. But you can buy the iBook version of the same book. (That's if the author wants to sell an iBook version.) And you can not buy that iBook version on Amazon. All because of the DRM that publishers require. 

    It's only the iBook version of the eBook, that can not be sold anywhere else because of the DRM. And for the obvious reason, iBooks do not work on any other companies devices. Why would anyone buy an iBook for their Kindle? Understand now?

    But I imagine that any eBook store can pay authors for an exclusive deal where their ebook are only available in their stores. Like they do with music, but usually for a limited time. That exclusive deal is the author's choice to make. 

    BTW- there are software that will remove the DRM on ebooks, so one can read a Kindle Book on an iPad or an iBook on a Kindle or any eBook on any device. It might not be legal but the eBook DRM removal software can easily be bought and some are free.  

    https://mapsystemsindia.com/resources/how-to-remove-drm-from-ebook.html
    There was a conspicuous lack of an e in all your mentions of books in every previous post, while this new post barely has a book without an e or an i.  Looks like you've pivoted and moved the goalposts somewhat.  Obviously ebooks isn't what I'm talking about or what I thought we were talking about, or what you were originally talking about.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 11 of 15
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,074member
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    darelrex said:
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    Retail has a much higher overhead 

    maybe if Apple charged 12% people wouldn’t care as much

    Which is why retail mark up is much more than 30%. Retail mark up on a book is around 40%. 

    But as the author, you not only have to account for the retailer mark up when setting the price of your book, you have to account for the wholesaler and/or distributor cost. Which might add another 40% of the retail price to your cost.  

    Which means that if you want to sell your book retail for $50, the book store will only pay you about $36 for it and if you go through a wholesaler it will cost you another 15% of the retail price of your book as the wholesaler has to get their cut. So now you're looking at only getting $29 per book. But if you also use a distributer to help market your book, the distributer can charge up to 30% of the retail price of the book. That might be another $15 you have to pay to get your book to the book store shelf.  So you can end up with less than $15, for every book that sells for $50.  Gee, that comes to 30/70 split. Only the author is getting to keep  the 30. 

    Here's an interesting read on how books goes from the author to the book store shelf.

    https://www.tckpublishing.com/difference-between-retail-wholesale-and-distribution/

    Selling software at retail is just as costly. 

    All of a sudden, paying Apple (or Google) a 30% commission, sounds pretty cheap.
    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    You are completely misunderstanding the requirements of the DRM that is on nearly all eBooks.  You don't really think that if the top ten NY Times best seller booklist was on sale at the Apple iBook Store, that some one else can't buy those same  best selling books for a Kindle on Amazon? 

    What Apple is saying (and you are completely misunderstanding) is that any iBook you create using Apple DRM iBook tools can only be sold in the Apple iBook Store. That is NOT the same as saying that the author can not create an Android version of that book and sell it on Google Book or create an Amazon Kindle version of that book and sell on Amazon.

    Amazon has the same DRM restriction. You can not buy an Amazon Kindle ebook in the Apple iBook Store. But you can buy the iBook version of the same book. (That's if the author wants to sell an iBook version.) And you can not buy that iBook version on Amazon. All because of the DRM that publishers require. 

    It's only the iBook version of the eBook, that can not be sold anywhere else because of the DRM. And for the obvious reason, iBooks do not work on any other companies devices. Why would anyone buy an iBook for their Kindle? Understand now?

    But I imagine that any eBook store can pay authors for an exclusive deal where their ebook are only available in their stores. Like they do with music, but usually for a limited time. That exclusive deal is the author's choice to make. 

    BTW- there are software that will remove the DRM on ebooks, so one can read a Kindle Book on an iPad or an iBook on a Kindle or any eBook on any device. It might not be legal but the eBook DRM removal software can easily be bought and some are free.  

    https://mapsystemsindia.com/resources/how-to-remove-drm-from-ebook.html
    There was a conspicuous lack of an e in all your mentions of books in every previous post, while this new post barely has a book without an e or an i.  Looks like you've pivoted and moved the goalposts somewhat.  Obviously ebooks isn't what I'm talking about or what I thought we were talking about, or what you were originally talking about.
    I wasn't talking about "eBooks" in my previous post. I was outlining what it takes an author to get his book on to a retail bookstore shelve. It was YOU that brought up "eBooks with your comment ....

    <"Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.">

    And then 

    >"You missed the point, the other platforms don't use the iOS binary.  Book sellers don't insist on selling a unique version of a book that can't be read outside of the bookstore."<  

    Obvious you were referring to "eBooks". Or by "bookstore own special language", did you mean something like French, Latin, Ebonics, Queens English, ect.? You were obviously referring to the DRM on eBooks, that limit what devices it will work on and thus not being sold in other eBook stores, even though you had no clue to what that "special language" was on an eBook, why its there and who put it there. What retail bookstore require an author to use "iOS binary" on a printed book, if you weren't referring to an eBook?


    It was after those comments, that I started to correct/inform you about "eBooks" and its DRM. (An iBook is an eBook sold by Apple using their FairPlay DRM. So an eBook is not necessarily an iBook.) 

    I didn't move the goal post. You picked up the ball, got confused and ran in the opposite direction. Then you stumbled and when you got up to look for the goal post, it looked like it moved farther away from you. With motion being relative, the goal post remained still and it was you that moved. (in the opposite direction.) 
    edited February 2022
  • Reply 12 of 15
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    darelrex said:
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    Retail has a much higher overhead 

    maybe if Apple charged 12% people wouldn’t care as much

    Which is why retail mark up is much more than 30%. Retail mark up on a book is around 40%. 

    But as the author, you not only have to account for the retailer mark up when setting the price of your book, you have to account for the wholesaler and/or distributor cost. Which might add another 40% of the retail price to your cost.  

    Which means that if you want to sell your book retail for $50, the book store will only pay you about $36 for it and if you go through a wholesaler it will cost you another 15% of the retail price of your book as the wholesaler has to get their cut. So now you're looking at only getting $29 per book. But if you also use a distributer to help market your book, the distributer can charge up to 30% of the retail price of the book. That might be another $15 you have to pay to get your book to the book store shelf.  So you can end up with less than $15, for every book that sells for $50.  Gee, that comes to 30/70 split. Only the author is getting to keep  the 30. 

    Here's an interesting read on how books goes from the author to the book store shelf.

    https://www.tckpublishing.com/difference-between-retail-wholesale-and-distribution/

    Selling software at retail is just as costly. 

    All of a sudden, paying Apple (or Google) a 30% commission, sounds pretty cheap.
    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    You are completely misunderstanding the requirements of the DRM that is on nearly all eBooks.  You don't really think that if the top ten NY Times best seller booklist was on sale at the Apple iBook Store, that some one else can't buy those same  best selling books for a Kindle on Amazon? 

    What Apple is saying (and you are completely misunderstanding) is that any iBook you create using Apple DRM iBook tools can only be sold in the Apple iBook Store. That is NOT the same as saying that the author can not create an Android version of that book and sell it on Google Book or create an Amazon Kindle version of that book and sell on Amazon.

    Amazon has the same DRM restriction. You can not buy an Amazon Kindle ebook in the Apple iBook Store. But you can buy the iBook version of the same book. (That's if the author wants to sell an iBook version.) And you can not buy that iBook version on Amazon. All because of the DRM that publishers require. 

    It's only the iBook version of the eBook, that can not be sold anywhere else because of the DRM. And for the obvious reason, iBooks do not work on any other companies devices. Why would anyone buy an iBook for their Kindle? Understand now?

    But I imagine that any eBook store can pay authors for an exclusive deal where their ebook are only available in their stores. Like they do with music, but usually for a limited time. That exclusive deal is the author's choice to make. 

    BTW- there are software that will remove the DRM on ebooks, so one can read a Kindle Book on an iPad or an iBook on a Kindle or any eBook on any device. It might not be legal but the eBook DRM removal software can easily be bought and some are free.  

    https://mapsystemsindia.com/resources/how-to-remove-drm-from-ebook.html
    There was a conspicuous lack of an e in all your mentions of books in every previous post, while this new post barely has a book without an e or an i.  Looks like you've pivoted and moved the goalposts somewhat.  Obviously ebooks isn't what I'm talking about or what I thought we were talking about, or what you were originally talking about.
    I wasn't talking about "eBooks" in my previous post. I was outlining what it takes an author to get his book on to a retail bookstore shelve. It was YOU that brought up "eBooks with your comment ....

    <"Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.">

    And then 

    >"You missed the point, the other platforms don't use the iOS binary.  Book sellers don't insist on selling a unique version of a book that can't be read outside of the bookstore."<  

    Obvious you were referring to "eBooks". Or by "bookstore own special language", did you mean something like French, Latin, Ebonics, Queens English, ect.? You were obviously referring to the DRM on eBooks, that limit what devices it will work on and thus not being sold in other eBook stores, even though you had no clue to what that "special language" was on an eBook, why its there and who put it there. What retail bookstore require an author to use "iOS binary" on a printed book, if you weren't referring to an eBook?
    Then you've massively misunderstood me.  I'm saying that bookstores don't have their own special language, where the analogy is to Objective-C, Swift, and the iOS API that apps are written in.  Other app platforms do have such restrictions, that's why the comparison is deeply flawed.  You've taken me completely backwards.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 13 of 15
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,074member
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    darelrex said:
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    Retail has a much higher overhead 

    maybe if Apple charged 12% people wouldn’t care as much

    Which is why retail mark up is much more than 30%. Retail mark up on a book is around 40%. 

    But as the author, you not only have to account for the retailer mark up when setting the price of your book, you have to account for the wholesaler and/or distributor cost. Which might add another 40% of the retail price to your cost.  

    Which means that if you want to sell your book retail for $50, the book store will only pay you about $36 for it and if you go through a wholesaler it will cost you another 15% of the retail price of your book as the wholesaler has to get their cut. So now you're looking at only getting $29 per book. But if you also use a distributer to help market your book, the distributer can charge up to 30% of the retail price of the book. That might be another $15 you have to pay to get your book to the book store shelf.  So you can end up with less than $15, for every book that sells for $50.  Gee, that comes to 30/70 split. Only the author is getting to keep  the 30. 

    Here's an interesting read on how books goes from the author to the book store shelf.

    https://www.tckpublishing.com/difference-between-retail-wholesale-and-distribution/

    Selling software at retail is just as costly. 

    All of a sudden, paying Apple (or Google) a 30% commission, sounds pretty cheap.
    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    You are completely misunderstanding the requirements of the DRM that is on nearly all eBooks.  You don't really think that if the top ten NY Times best seller booklist was on sale at the Apple iBook Store, that some one else can't buy those same  best selling books for a Kindle on Amazon? 

    What Apple is saying (and you are completely misunderstanding) is that any iBook you create using Apple DRM iBook tools can only be sold in the Apple iBook Store. That is NOT the same as saying that the author can not create an Android version of that book and sell it on Google Book or create an Amazon Kindle version of that book and sell on Amazon.

    Amazon has the same DRM restriction. You can not buy an Amazon Kindle ebook in the Apple iBook Store. But you can buy the iBook version of the same book. (That's if the author wants to sell an iBook version.) And you can not buy that iBook version on Amazon. All because of the DRM that publishers require. 

    It's only the iBook version of the eBook, that can not be sold anywhere else because of the DRM. And for the obvious reason, iBooks do not work on any other companies devices. Why would anyone buy an iBook for their Kindle? Understand now?

    But I imagine that any eBook store can pay authors for an exclusive deal where their ebook are only available in their stores. Like they do with music, but usually for a limited time. That exclusive deal is the author's choice to make. 

    BTW- there are software that will remove the DRM on ebooks, so one can read a Kindle Book on an iPad or an iBook on a Kindle or any eBook on any device. It might not be legal but the eBook DRM removal software can easily be bought and some are free.  

    https://mapsystemsindia.com/resources/how-to-remove-drm-from-ebook.html
    There was a conspicuous lack of an e in all your mentions of books in every previous post, while this new post barely has a book without an e or an i.  Looks like you've pivoted and moved the goalposts somewhat.  Obviously ebooks isn't what I'm talking about or what I thought we were talking about, or what you were originally talking about.
    I wasn't talking about "eBooks" in my previous post. I was outlining what it takes an author to get his book on to a retail bookstore shelve. It was YOU that brought up "eBooks with your comment ....

    <"Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.">

    And then 

    >"You missed the point, the other platforms don't use the iOS binary.  Book sellers don't insist on selling a unique version of a book that can't be read outside of the bookstore."<  

    Obvious you were referring to "eBooks". Or by "bookstore own special language", did you mean something like French, Latin, Ebonics, Queens English, ect.? You were obviously referring to the DRM on eBooks, that limit what devices it will work on and thus not being sold in other eBook stores, even though you had no clue to what that "special language" was on an eBook, why its there and who put it there. What retail bookstore require an author to use "iOS binary" on a printed book, if you weren't referring to an eBook?
    Then you've massively misunderstood me.  I'm saying that bookstores don't have their own special language, where the analogy is to Objective-C, Swift, and the iOS API that apps are written in.  Other app platforms do have such restrictions, that's why the comparison is deeply flawed.  You've taken me completely backwards.
    There is no "special language" for eBooks. It's an open standard. eBooks are more like digital downloaded music, where near all downloaded music are either in MP3 or ACC. eBooks are the same way. The standard "language" (format) is ePub. Then each eBook store wrap their own DRM around it, so it will only work on their own specific devices. It's the publishers and authors that demand the DRM. eBooks can also come DRM free. That's why once you remove the DRM, the eBook can be read on nearly every eBook reader, no matter which eBook store you bought it from. At one time, Kindle was the odd one out. But ePub can easily be converted to MOBI, the format that was once required to work on a Kindle. No harder than converting ACC to MP3 or vice versa.  

    Authors do not to need to know different "languages" to submit their work to different eBook stores. They only need to use ePub. And there are many companies that sell software programs for this purpose. I don't know where you got the idea that authors need to learn Swift, Objective C, iOS API, or any other programming language, in order to  submit their books to an eBook store.      

    https://www.ingramspark.com/blog/how-to-create-complex-full-color-ebooks

    And guess what, Apple provide a free way for authors to convert their word documents in Pages, into an ePub file. Though its very basic. 

    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202066

    or for better and more profession result, use MS Word and buy special software to do the conversion.

    https://www.janefriedman.com/word-epub/
    edited February 2022
  • Reply 14 of 15
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    darelrex said:
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    Retail has a much higher overhead 

    maybe if Apple charged 12% people wouldn’t care as much

    Which is why retail mark up is much more than 30%. Retail mark up on a book is around 40%. 

    But as the author, you not only have to account for the retailer mark up when setting the price of your book, you have to account for the wholesaler and/or distributor cost. Which might add another 40% of the retail price to your cost.  

    Which means that if you want to sell your book retail for $50, the book store will only pay you about $36 for it and if you go through a wholesaler it will cost you another 15% of the retail price of your book as the wholesaler has to get their cut. So now you're looking at only getting $29 per book. But if you also use a distributer to help market your book, the distributer can charge up to 30% of the retail price of the book. That might be another $15 you have to pay to get your book to the book store shelf.  So you can end up with less than $15, for every book that sells for $50.  Gee, that comes to 30/70 split. Only the author is getting to keep  the 30. 

    Here's an interesting read on how books goes from the author to the book store shelf.

    https://www.tckpublishing.com/difference-between-retail-wholesale-and-distribution/

    Selling software at retail is just as costly. 

    All of a sudden, paying Apple (or Google) a 30% commission, sounds pretty cheap.
    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    You are completely misunderstanding the requirements of the DRM that is on nearly all eBooks.  You don't really think that if the top ten NY Times best seller booklist was on sale at the Apple iBook Store, that some one else can't buy those same  best selling books for a Kindle on Amazon? 

    What Apple is saying (and you are completely misunderstanding) is that any iBook you create using Apple DRM iBook tools can only be sold in the Apple iBook Store. That is NOT the same as saying that the author can not create an Android version of that book and sell it on Google Book or create an Amazon Kindle version of that book and sell on Amazon.

    Amazon has the same DRM restriction. You can not buy an Amazon Kindle ebook in the Apple iBook Store. But you can buy the iBook version of the same book. (That's if the author wants to sell an iBook version.) And you can not buy that iBook version on Amazon. All because of the DRM that publishers require. 

    It's only the iBook version of the eBook, that can not be sold anywhere else because of the DRM. And for the obvious reason, iBooks do not work on any other companies devices. Why would anyone buy an iBook for their Kindle? Understand now?

    But I imagine that any eBook store can pay authors for an exclusive deal where their ebook are only available in their stores. Like they do with music, but usually for a limited time. That exclusive deal is the author's choice to make. 

    BTW- there are software that will remove the DRM on ebooks, so one can read a Kindle Book on an iPad or an iBook on a Kindle or any eBook on any device. It might not be legal but the eBook DRM removal software can easily be bought and some are free.  

    https://mapsystemsindia.com/resources/how-to-remove-drm-from-ebook.html
    There was a conspicuous lack of an e in all your mentions of books in every previous post, while this new post barely has a book without an e or an i.  Looks like you've pivoted and moved the goalposts somewhat.  Obviously ebooks isn't what I'm talking about or what I thought we were talking about, or what you were originally talking about.
    I wasn't talking about "eBooks" in my previous post. I was outlining what it takes an author to get his book on to a retail bookstore shelve. It was YOU that brought up "eBooks with your comment ....

    <"Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.">

    And then 

    >"You missed the point, the other platforms don't use the iOS binary.  Book sellers don't insist on selling a unique version of a book that can't be read outside of the bookstore."<  

    Obvious you were referring to "eBooks". Or by "bookstore own special language", did you mean something like French, Latin, Ebonics, Queens English, ect.? You were obviously referring to the DRM on eBooks, that limit what devices it will work on and thus not being sold in other eBook stores, even though you had no clue to what that "special language" was on an eBook, why its there and who put it there. What retail bookstore require an author to use "iOS binary" on a printed book, if you weren't referring to an eBook?
    Then you've massively misunderstood me.  I'm saying that bookstores don't have their own special language, where the analogy is to Objective-C, Swift, and the iOS API that apps are written in.  Other app platforms do have such restrictions, that's why the comparison is deeply flawed.  You've taken me completely backwards.
    There is no "special language" for eBooks. It's an open standard. eBooks are more like digital downloaded music, where near all downloaded music are either in MP3 or ACC. eBooks are the same way. The standard "language" (format) is ePub. Then each eBook store wrap their own DRM around it, so it will only work on their own specific devices. It's the publishers and authors that demand the DRM. eBooks can also come DRM free. That's why once you remove the DRM, the eBook can be read on nearly every eBook reader, no matter which eBook store you bought it from. At one time, Kindle was the odd one out. But ePub can easily be converted to MOBI, the format that was once required to work on a Kindle. No harder than converting ACC to MP3 or vice versa.  

    Authors do not to need to know different "languages" to submit their work to different eBook stores. They only need to use ePub. And there are many companies that sell software programs for this purpose. I don't know where you got the idea that authors need to learn Swift, Objective C, iOS API, or any other programming language, in order to  submit their books to an eBook store.      

    https://www.ingramspark.com/blog/how-to-create-complex-full-color-ebooks

    And guess what, Apple provide a free way for authors to convert their word documents in Pages, into an ePub file. Though its very basic. 

    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202066

    or for better and more profession result, use MS Word and buy special software to do the conversion.

    https://www.janefriedman.com/word-epub/
    Why are you still talking about ebooks?  The point was never about ebooks, and I've made this very clear to you.

    The entire point here is that brick and mortar book stores are very different from a software app store, and because of those differences comparing their overheads is a useless exercise.  

    Gabbing about conversion between ebook formats might be very interesting (actually, not really), but it's totally irrelevant.
    edited February 2022 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 15 of 15
    DetnatorDetnator Posts: 287member
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    crowley said:
    davidw said:
    darelrex said:
    Once upon a time, you went to a bookstore and bought a book, and if you paid cash, then nobody knew who bought the book. If you used a credit card (and maybe also a frequent-buyer card), then the bookstore knew who bought the book, but the publisher still didn't. What's wrong with it being that way today? Whine, whine, whine.

    Also: "30% haircut" is weasel-words designed to make it sound like some kind of lethal decapitation that ought to be banned. It's called a markup. If you need $5, then set your store price to $7, and Apple will keep about $2 of that. It's not rocket science; retail markup has been around for decades before Apple even existed, and it never chopped anyone's head off.
    Retail has a much higher overhead 

    maybe if Apple charged 12% people wouldn’t care as much

    Which is why retail mark up is much more than 30%. Retail mark up on a book is around 40%. 

    But as the author, you not only have to account for the retailer mark up when setting the price of your book, you have to account for the wholesaler and/or distributor cost. Which might add another 40% of the retail price to your cost.  

    Which means that if you want to sell your book retail for $50, the book store will only pay you about $36 for it and if you go through a wholesaler it will cost you another 15% of the retail price of your book as the wholesaler has to get their cut. So now you're looking at only getting $29 per book. But if you also use a distributer to help market your book, the distributer can charge up to 30% of the retail price of the book. That might be another $15 you have to pay to get your book to the book store shelf.  So you can end up with less than $15, for every book that sells for $50.  Gee, that comes to 30/70 split. Only the author is getting to keep  the 30. 

    Here's an interesting read on how books goes from the author to the book store shelf.

    https://www.tckpublishing.com/difference-between-retail-wholesale-and-distribution/

    Selling software at retail is just as costly. 

    All of a sudden, paying Apple (or Google) a 30% commission, sounds pretty cheap.
    Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.

    You are completely misunderstanding the requirements of the DRM that is on nearly all eBooks.  You don't really think that if the top ten NY Times best seller booklist was on sale at the Apple iBook Store, that some one else can't buy those same  best selling books for a Kindle on Amazon? 

    What Apple is saying (and you are completely misunderstanding) is that any iBook you create using Apple DRM iBook tools can only be sold in the Apple iBook Store. That is NOT the same as saying that the author can not create an Android version of that book and sell it on Google Book or create an Amazon Kindle version of that book and sell on Amazon.

    Amazon has the same DRM restriction. You can not buy an Amazon Kindle ebook in the Apple iBook Store. But you can buy the iBook version of the same book. (That's if the author wants to sell an iBook version.) And you can not buy that iBook version on Amazon. All because of the DRM that publishers require. 

    It's only the iBook version of the eBook, that can not be sold anywhere else because of the DRM. And for the obvious reason, iBooks do not work on any other companies devices. Why would anyone buy an iBook for their Kindle? Understand now?

    But I imagine that any eBook store can pay authors for an exclusive deal where their ebook are only available in their stores. Like they do with music, but usually for a limited time. That exclusive deal is the author's choice to make. 

    BTW- there are software that will remove the DRM on ebooks, so one can read a Kindle Book on an iPad or an iBook on a Kindle or any eBook on any device. It might not be legal but the eBook DRM removal software can easily be bought and some are free.  

    https://mapsystemsindia.com/resources/how-to-remove-drm-from-ebook.html
    There was a conspicuous lack of an e in all your mentions of books in every previous post, while this new post barely has a book without an e or an i.  Looks like you've pivoted and moved the goalposts somewhat.  Obviously ebooks isn't what I'm talking about or what I thought we were talking about, or what you were originally talking about.
    I wasn't talking about "eBooks" in my previous post. I was outlining what it takes an author to get his book on to a retail bookstore shelve. It was YOU that brought up "eBooks with your comment ....

    <"Last time I checked, bookstores don't have rules that you can't sell your book, which is written in the bookstore's own special language, at any other bookstores.

    Such comparisons don't really apply.">

    And then 

    >"You missed the point, the other platforms don't use the iOS binary.  Book sellers don't insist on selling a unique version of a book that can't be read outside of the bookstore."<  

    Obvious you were referring to "eBooks". Or by "bookstore own special language", did you mean something like French, Latin, Ebonics, Queens English, ect.? You were obviously referring to the DRM on eBooks, that limit what devices it will work on and thus not being sold in other eBook stores, even though you had no clue to what that "special language" was on an eBook, why its there and who put it there. What retail bookstore require an author to use "iOS binary" on a printed book, if you weren't referring to an eBook?
    Then you've massively misunderstood me.  I'm saying that bookstores don't have their own special language, where the analogy is to Objective-C, Swift, and the iOS API that apps are written in.  Other app platforms do have such restrictions, that's why the comparison is deeply flawed.  You've taken me completely backwards.
    There is no "special language" for eBooks. It's an open standard. eBooks are more like digital downloaded music, where near all downloaded music are either in MP3 or ACC. eBooks are the same way. The standard "language" (format) is ePub. Then each eBook store wrap their own DRM around it, so it will only work on their own specific devices. It's the publishers and authors that demand the DRM. eBooks can also come DRM free. That's why once you remove the DRM, the eBook can be read on nearly every eBook reader, no matter which eBook store you bought it from. At one time, Kindle was the odd one out. But ePub can easily be converted to MOBI, the format that was once required to work on a Kindle. No harder than converting ACC to MP3 or vice versa.  

    Authors do not to need to know different "languages" to submit their work to different eBook stores. They only need to use ePub. And there are many companies that sell software programs for this purpose. I don't know where you got the idea that authors need to learn Swift, Objective C, iOS API, or any other programming language, in order to  submit their books to an eBook store.      

    https://www.ingramspark.com/blog/how-to-create-complex-full-color-ebooks

    And guess what, Apple provide a free way for authors to convert their word documents in Pages, into an ePub file. Though its very basic. 

    https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202066

    or for better and more profession result, use MS Word and buy special software to do the conversion.

    https://www.janefriedman.com/word-epub/
    Why are you still talking about ebooks?  The point was never about ebooks, and I've made this very clear to you.

    The entire point here is that brick and mortar book stores are very different from a software app store, and because of those differences comparing their overheads is a useless exercise.  

    Gabbing about conversion between ebook formats might be very interesting (actually, not really), but it's totally irrelevant.
    So you are comparing physical books to software apps?

    If so, ummm..  why? That seems odd to me so davidw’s misunderstanding is not particularly out there. 

    But maybe I’m misunderstanding also. 
    edited March 2022
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