Hmmm. I wrote a slightly huffy reply, and then looked under the Options tab in Energy Saver ... and sure enough, there's the Processor performance option.
Mea culpa.
Nonetheless, think about how you adjust your screen brightness manually now (if you use a PB), not just for light, but also to eke out a bit more battery time. Now if you've got a new 17-incher, your PB adjusts this for you, improving transparency and battery life in one hit.
Think of something similar with the CPU and related components. Given the apparent flexibility of the GX bus, it might be feasible for your 970-based PB to adjust performance on the fly over a broad range of clockspeeds, based on parameters like heat & fan activity as well as CPU load. I'm pretty sure that Energy Saver doesn't do that!
" Rumors have been flourishing in recent days about the next round of Powerbooks being the first to sport IBM's PowerPC 970 processor. Let's put these to rest....they are dead wrong. The initial PPC 970s will be too hot for use in an ultra-thin Powerbook, would significantly reduce battery life, and would be significantly reduced in performance due to the slower motherboard architecture that would be required by the temperature and power dissipation constrictions of a laptop.
The 970 will not see use in Powerbooks until well into 2004, when it is updated from a 0.13 micron design to a 0.10 micron process, making it cooler, faster, and cheaper to produce. Also by then, Powerbook motherboards will have been re-engineered to support HyperTransport and the Apple Processor Interconnect bus that together will allow a 970 processor to receive the kind of bandwidth that will allow it to perform at 100%.
Again, to re-iterate, we will see dual-processor G4 Powerbooks long before we will see Powerbooks based on the 970 processor. The first 970-based Macs will be Xserves and PowerMacs, with dual-G4 17-inch Powerbooks following after a few months -- probably in October or November. In 2004, the 15-inch Powerbook will also become available with dual G4 processors, and not until at least next August will we see an Apple laptop based on IBM's PowerPC 970 family."
Me personally, I very seriously doubt we will see dual G4 processors in a notebook of any kind, before the 970. The logic of his heat and power consumption arguments eludes me completely, but then again, maybe I missed something. If he is referring to the alleged MPC 7457 for duals in a powerbook, we'll have to wait until 2004.
Let see, the current G4 uses about the same energy if not slightly more than the 970, and Apple is going to put TWO G4's in a powerbook, because the 970 uses too much energy(me shakes head in disbelief). If he is referring to the MPC7457 they won't appear until shortly before the 970 migrates to the 0.09µm process which would make using dual MPC7457 less attractive than dual 970's yet again. I'm stumped.
That's not to say we'll see an IBM 970 in a laptop any time soon, but DUAL G4's, I'm skeptical
Well, I'll give them credit for sticking their necks out and offering a fairly concrete roadmap for the PowerBook.
Where it's going is an interesting question: The 7455 is, I believe, more or less tapped out as a notebook CPU. Yes, it can go above 1GHz, but not without being pushed to the limits of its design tolerances. That means it gets really hot, and it must be kept within a relatively strict temperature range to avoid disaster. That's why the MDD PowerMacs feature the 120mm "leaf blower" and a giant copper heatsink. Dual 7455s are a distant possibility for LapZilla, which has a little extra room, and which runs cool according to user reports, but that's about it.
So, the PB can either go with the 7457 or the 970 (or stagnate until the 970+). We don't really know when either processor will arrive. IBM is apparently ahead of schedule fabbing on .13 micron, and they've repeatedly said that Fishkill was designed for 0.09 micron and below, and they've move production to that technology promptly. The 7457 was supposed to have been released by now, so it could arrive at any time. It's apparently due this fall? So, it seems to me that Apple could go either way next winter.
Now, the '57 is small and cool. It'll be a great little notebook CPU. It's also pin-compatible with the '55. This means that it can be added with very little work on Apple's part. They could even pump MaxBus up to 200MHz. It would be a nice evolution of the line, to be sure, but only an evolution.
The 970 is not a great, big, hot monster. It's designed for blades, which are not all that dissimilar to notebooks as far as engineering issues go. There's a low-voltage version. I don't know whether the 19W figure for the 1.2GHz 970 is average or peak — if average, then it's not going to work; if peak, it'll be right about where the G4 is now — but in any case, IBM seems confident about a rapid move to .09 micron, so it could be ready in time for a PowerBook update early next year.
The most interesting thing, to me, is the apparent ceiling that the PowerBook has run into with the 7455. They're going to have to go somewhere new for the next update, unless they pull of a real feat cooling-wise. But then, they could have done the same for the 970. (There is, of course, the minor detail of designing and testing a whole new mobo vs. using better cooling on the current one...).
You know, Amorph, Steve Jobs is not David Copperfield and Apple's engineers cannot do wonders every day to cool the CPU which is, as some believe, already overclocked beyond every limit. I don't think that, starting from a certain MHz point, it's easier and cheaper to cool the 7455 than to design a new motherboard for PPC970. I don't even mention a manic idea about dual G4 notebooks. They would also require a new motherboard, by the way.
You made an interesting point about 7457 versus 970. Under the cloak of conspiracy around Apple it's hard to tell which will be the first, though the latter is more likely. Probably there is a plan to move PowerBooks to PPC970 and iBooks to 7457? That way they can keep sufficient performance difference between the two without hindering speed boost. Who knows? However, I tend to believe that the word PowerBook implies some superiority and the best way to keep the brand alive is to put the most power available into it. They could start with PPC970 @ 1.2GHz in 15'' models, pushing at 1.5GHz in 17'' ones. And it would be cooler and cheaper than dual G4s.
I don't know whether the 19W figure for the 1.2GHz 970 is average or peak — if average, then it's not going to work; if peak, it'll be right about where the G4 is now — but in any case, IBM seems confident about a rapid move to .09 micron, so it could be ready in time for a PowerBook update early next year.
The 19W specified are average, not peak, which means the 1.2GHz chip is a little hot. But underclocking it to 1GHz, or 1,1GHz could make it more acceptable. Performance will be acceptable anyways
My guess is the 7447 will be in a 12" notebook quite soon. Why would Apple design a motherboard for 12" powerbook with a 7445 just to throw it away a few months after? If the the PBs go 970 take the MB pop in a 7447 and put it in a ibook. If not just use the stuff for the next 12" PB. "Apple has options"
Personally I don't think that Apple will move 2 lines (PB & PM) to the 970 too quick. Even though I'm not assuming this happends, but what if the 970 turns out to have a bug and Apple must offer a replacement? It's too risky from a business pov. Change one line, see what happends, then the next an so on. Look at the problems the 17" has got, imagine such Problems for all PBs & PMs! That would be a major blow for Apple.
Update: 970 PowerBook Production: Accelerated 970 Production
Further discussions with Apple OEM assembly partners have given us up to date information on motherboard production for both PowerBooks and PowerMacs, both using the IBM PPC 970 processor.
First, we have been told, and we have second-sourced the claim that 15.4-inch PowerBook motherboards are now in production and are shipping regularly to Apple's contract PowerBook assembler. Next, we have been told, and we have also second-sourced a claim that bid requests for a fully-designed 970-based board for the 17-inch PowerBook were received by two assembly plants this past Friday, with a submission deadline for replies of April 30th.
Finally, a reliable source in engineering management at the ODM supplier providing the upcoming PowerMac motherboards has informed us that those boards went into volume production this past Friday, and that first shipments to Apple's final assembly partner for the new PowerMacs is to take place "about April 15th."
We will add that our sources seem consistently taken aback by what they all characterize as the unexpected and very unusual hurry involved in all work on these new desktop and portable Apple products. Every step in each process is being scheduled far tighter than is normal for a new production run."
Rumors have been flourishing in recent days about the next round of Powerbooks being the first to sport IBM's PowerPC 970 processor. Let's put these to rest....they are dead wrong. The initial PPC 970s will be too hot for use in an ultra-thin Powerbook, would significantly reduce battery life, and would be significantly reduced in performance due to the slower motherboard architecture that would be required by the temperature and power dissipation constrictions of a laptop.
IOW, a 970-based PowerBook would require more heat and energy than a G4-based PowerBook. Makes sense (whether it's true or not).
A few paragraphs later, though, they say:
Quote:
Again, to re-iterate, we will see dual-processor G4 Powerbooks long before we will see Powerbooks based on the 970 processor. The first 970-based Macs will be Xserves and PowerMacs, with dual-G4 17-inch Powerbooks following after a few months -- probably in October or November. In 2004, the 15-inch Powerbook will also become available with dual G4 processors, and not until at least next August will we see an Apple laptop based on IBM's PowerPC 970 family.
Um, okay. Wait a minute.
They're saying two G4 processors, in addition to the infrastructure required to supply two CPUs with enough memory bandwidth, require less heat and energy than one - much more modern - 970 processor?
And they're saying that well after the introduction of the 970 in desktops, Apple will put dual G4s in laptops?
They're saying two G4 processors, in addition to the infrastructure required to supply two CPUs with enough memory bandwidth, require less heat and energy than one - much more modern - 970 processor?
And they're saying that well after the introduction of the 970 in desktops, Apple will put dual G4s in laptops?
MOSR has been mentally masturbating over the idea of a dual-G4 PowerBook for a *long* time - since right before the 550/667 updates IIRC.
A dual G4 notebook simply wouldn't work. Now, with MojaveMP... :-)
Mac Whispers is at it again with renewed claims of a 970 based Powerbook RSN.
Yes I sure hope he is right. I like the part about apple moving things along. You just know they are like "we gotta get off this g4 train as fast as we can". If he is right and one of those boards is for a 17" powerbook we ought to have both announced in june. yeeehaaw.
Yes I sure hope he is right. I like the part about apple moving things along. You just know they are like "we gotta get off this g4 train as fast as we can". If he is right and one of those boards is for a 17" powerbook we ought to have both announced in june. yeeehaaw.
You are right about "getting off this G4 train as fast as we can" more than you think.
The G4 by all accounts is now strugling to scale beyond 1G, the 1.25's and the 1.42's are overclocked 1G chips. Its at the point where Apple CANNOT release a speed bump on the PowerBooks or even the PowerMacs.
The 7457's are still not shipping, hell Apple is STUCK on what they are shipping now!
Im more inclined to believe the Mac Whispers 'claim' that the 970 is going into PowerMacs and PowerBooks because,
1. its much easier to get information out of manufacturers in Taiwan, than Cupertino and 2. The G4 problems/ 10.3 (64bit) OS will give Apple a HUGE lead in desktop/portable computing businesses.
The 7457 should be available in quantity by September, but again its only going to be about 1G - sure half the power, great but it will need to be overcloked (not a problem) to speed bump Apple's current line.
Don't know if this has already been posted in one of the many 970 threads but came across it at the OS Cast web site in an item about emulation software:
"A source close to Apple recently relayed information to oscast suggesting that Apple had intended to use emulation software to show the power and performance of its upcoming hardware. This individual stated that Windows software running in emulation performed certain instructions significantly faster than what a hard PC was able to do."
I'm assuming the upcoming hardware is the 970 based Macs - but does the 970 (as fast as it is) have enough 'oomph' to emulate PCs at speed?
"A source close to Apple recently relayed information to oscast suggesting that Apple had intended to use emulation software to show the power and performance of its upcoming hardware. This individual stated that Windows software running in emulation performed certain instructions significantly faster than what a hard PC was able to do."
Color me skeptical. First, the 970 is fast, but I don't think it's that fast. Emulating a CPU with a completely different design philosophy can't be done efficiently. The 970 is not going to get hobbled running code that assumes a fat pipe to RAM the way the G4 was, but still. Connectix has said that hardware emulation doesn't thread well, so it's hard to bring multiple processors to bear on the issue.
Second, I don't see that it's in Apple's interest to build a better Windows PC. If they do, then Windows development effectively becomes cross-platform, and the companies that currently spend extra money maintaining two codebases will jump at the chance to get rid of one of those. Guess which one. There are a few small things that might hold some vendors back (AppleScript?), but I wouldn't bet on it.
Comments
Mea culpa.
Nonetheless, think about how you adjust your screen brightness manually now (if you use a PB), not just for light, but also to eke out a bit more battery time. Now if you've got a new 17-incher, your PB adjusts this for you, improving transparency and battery life in one hit.
Think of something similar with the CPU and related components. Given the apparent flexibility of the GX bus, it might be feasible for your 970-based PB to adjust performance on the fly over a broad range of clockspeeds, based on parameters like heat & fan activity as well as CPU load. I'm pretty sure that Energy Saver doesn't do that!
" Rumors have been flourishing in recent days about the next round of Powerbooks being the first to sport IBM's PowerPC 970 processor. Let's put these to rest....they are dead wrong. The initial PPC 970s will be too hot for use in an ultra-thin Powerbook, would significantly reduce battery life, and would be significantly reduced in performance due to the slower motherboard architecture that would be required by the temperature and power dissipation constrictions of a laptop.
The 970 will not see use in Powerbooks until well into 2004, when it is updated from a 0.13 micron design to a 0.10 micron process, making it cooler, faster, and cheaper to produce. Also by then, Powerbook motherboards will have been re-engineered to support HyperTransport and the Apple Processor Interconnect bus that together will allow a 970 processor to receive the kind of bandwidth that will allow it to perform at 100%.
Again, to re-iterate, we will see dual-processor G4 Powerbooks long before we will see Powerbooks based on the 970 processor. The first 970-based Macs will be Xserves and PowerMacs, with dual-G4 17-inch Powerbooks following after a few months -- probably in October or November. In 2004, the 15-inch Powerbook will also become available with dual G4 processors, and not until at least next August will we see an Apple laptop based on IBM's PowerPC 970 family."
Me personally, I very seriously doubt we will see dual G4 processors in a notebook of any kind, before the 970. The logic of his heat and power consumption arguments eludes me completely, but then again, maybe I missed something. If he is referring to the alleged MPC 7457 for duals in a powerbook, we'll have to wait until 2004.
Let see, the current G4 uses about the same energy if not slightly more than the 970, and Apple is going to put TWO G4's in a powerbook, because the 970 uses too much energy(me shakes head in disbelief). If he is referring to the MPC7457 they won't appear until shortly before the 970 migrates to the 0.09µm process which would make using dual MPC7457 less attractive than dual 970's yet again. I'm stumped.
That's not to say we'll see an IBM 970 in a laptop any time soon, but DUAL G4's, I'm skeptical
Where it's going is an interesting question: The 7455 is, I believe, more or less tapped out as a notebook CPU. Yes, it can go above 1GHz, but not without being pushed to the limits of its design tolerances. That means it gets really hot, and it must be kept within a relatively strict temperature range to avoid disaster. That's why the MDD PowerMacs feature the 120mm "leaf blower" and a giant copper heatsink. Dual 7455s are a distant possibility for LapZilla, which has a little extra room, and which runs cool according to user reports, but that's about it.
So, the PB can either go with the 7457 or the 970 (or stagnate until the 970+). We don't really know when either processor will arrive. IBM is apparently ahead of schedule fabbing on .13 micron, and they've repeatedly said that Fishkill was designed for 0.09 micron and below, and they've move production to that technology promptly. The 7457 was supposed to have been released by now, so it could arrive at any time. It's apparently due this fall? So, it seems to me that Apple could go either way next winter.
Now, the '57 is small and cool. It'll be a great little notebook CPU. It's also pin-compatible with the '55. This means that it can be added with very little work on Apple's part. They could even pump MaxBus up to 200MHz. It would be a nice evolution of the line, to be sure, but only an evolution.
The 970 is not a great, big, hot monster. It's designed for blades, which are not all that dissimilar to notebooks as far as engineering issues go. There's a low-voltage version. I don't know whether the 19W figure for the 1.2GHz 970 is average or peak — if average, then it's not going to work; if peak, it'll be right about where the G4 is now — but in any case, IBM seems confident about a rapid move to .09 micron, so it could be ready in time for a PowerBook update early next year.
The most interesting thing, to me, is the apparent ceiling that the PowerBook has run into with the 7455. They're going to have to go somewhere new for the next update, unless they pull of a real feat cooling-wise. But then, they could have done the same for the 970.
You made an interesting point about 7457 versus 970. Under the cloak of conspiracy around Apple it's hard to tell which will be the first, though the latter is more likely. Probably there is a plan to move PowerBooks to PPC970 and iBooks to 7457? That way they can keep sufficient performance difference between the two without hindering speed boost. Who knows? However, I tend to believe that the word PowerBook implies some superiority and the best way to keep the brand alive is to put the most power available into it. They could start with PPC970 @ 1.2GHz in 15'' models, pushing at 1.5GHz in 17'' ones. And it would be cooler and cheaper than dual G4s.
Originally posted by Amorph
I don't know whether the 19W figure for the 1.2GHz 970 is average or peak — if average, then it's not going to work; if peak, it'll be right about where the G4 is now — but in any case, IBM seems confident about a rapid move to .09 micron, so it could be ready in time for a PowerBook update early next year.
The 19W specified are average, not peak, which means the 1.2GHz chip is a little hot. But underclocking it to 1GHz, or 1,1GHz could make it more acceptable. Performance will be acceptable anyways
Personally I don't think that Apple will move 2 lines (PB & PM) to the 970 too quick. Even though I'm not assuming this happends, but what if the 970 turns out to have a bug and Apple must offer a replacement? It's too risky from a business pov. Change one line, see what happends, then the next an so on. Look at the problems the 17" has got, imagine such Problems for all PBs & PMs! That would be a major blow for Apple.
End of Line
The 970 will be with us in 2H03 - that's July/August. IBM are often early, some even claim it went into full production a few days ago.
What Apple use in the next Powerbook is anybody's guess, but a 970 would be a big win.
970 based Powerbook motherboard production
"April 10, 2003
Update: 970 PowerBook Production: Accelerated 970 Production
Further discussions with Apple OEM assembly partners have given us up to date information on motherboard production for both PowerBooks and PowerMacs, both using the IBM PPC 970 processor.
First, we have been told, and we have second-sourced the claim that 15.4-inch PowerBook motherboards are now in production and are shipping regularly to Apple's contract PowerBook assembler. Next, we have been told, and we have also second-sourced a claim that bid requests for a fully-designed 970-based board for the 17-inch PowerBook were received by two assembly plants this past Friday, with a submission deadline for replies of April 30th.
Finally, a reliable source in engineering management at the ODM supplier providing the upcoming PowerMac motherboards has informed us that those boards went into volume production this past Friday, and that first shipments to Apple's final assembly partner for the new PowerMacs is to take place "about April 15th."
We will add that our sources seem consistently taken aback by what they all characterize as the unexpected and very unusual hurry involved in all work on these new desktop and portable Apple products. Every step in each process is being scheduled far tighter than is normal for a new production run."
First they say:
Rumors have been flourishing in recent days about the next round of Powerbooks being the first to sport IBM's PowerPC 970 processor. Let's put these to rest....they are dead wrong. The initial PPC 970s will be too hot for use in an ultra-thin Powerbook, would significantly reduce battery life, and would be significantly reduced in performance due to the slower motherboard architecture that would be required by the temperature and power dissipation constrictions of a laptop.
IOW, a 970-based PowerBook would require more heat and energy than a G4-based PowerBook. Makes sense (whether it's true or not).
A few paragraphs later, though, they say:
Again, to re-iterate, we will see dual-processor G4 Powerbooks long before we will see Powerbooks based on the 970 processor. The first 970-based Macs will be Xserves and PowerMacs, with dual-G4 17-inch Powerbooks following after a few months -- probably in October or November. In 2004, the 15-inch Powerbook will also become available with dual G4 processors, and not until at least next August will we see an Apple laptop based on IBM's PowerPC 970 family.
Um, okay. Wait a minute.
They're saying two G4 processors, in addition to the infrastructure required to supply two CPUs with enough memory bandwidth, require less heat and energy than one - much more modern - 970 processor?
And they're saying that well after the introduction of the 970 in desktops, Apple will put dual G4s in laptops?
Originally posted by Chucker
They're saying two G4 processors, in addition to the infrastructure required to supply two CPUs with enough memory bandwidth, require less heat and energy than one - much more modern - 970 processor?
And they're saying that well after the introduction of the 970 in desktops, Apple will put dual G4s in laptops?
MOSR has been mentally masturbating over the idea of a dual-G4 PowerBook for a *long* time - since right before the 550/667 updates IIRC.
A dual G4 notebook simply wouldn't work. Now, with MojaveMP... :-)
Originally posted by Chucker
Isn't MOSR just funny?
Do you find it funny to mock at madmen? Have shame!
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Mac Whispers is at it again with renewed claims of a 970 based Powerbook RSN.
Yes I sure hope he is right. I like the part about apple moving things along. You just know they are like "we gotta get off this g4 train as fast as we can". If he is right and one of those boards is for a 17" powerbook we ought to have both announced in june. yeeehaaw.
Originally posted by mello
What do you think the battery life of a PPC970 powerbook would be with a chip at .09 micron?
This is kinda like asking "How long does a gallon of fuel allow you to travel?"
Way way way too many things would need to be known before we could even begin to answer something like that.
Dave
Originally posted by mania
Yes I sure hope he is right. I like the part about apple moving things along. You just know they are like "we gotta get off this g4 train as fast as we can". If he is right and one of those boards is for a 17" powerbook we ought to have both announced in june. yeeehaaw.
You are right about "getting off this G4 train as fast as we can" more than you think.
The G4 by all accounts is now strugling to scale beyond 1G, the 1.25's and the 1.42's are overclocked 1G chips. Its at the point where Apple CANNOT release a speed bump on the PowerBooks or even the PowerMacs.
The 7457's are still not shipping, hell Apple is STUCK on what they are shipping now!
Im more inclined to believe the Mac Whispers 'claim' that the 970 is going into PowerMacs and PowerBooks because,
1. its much easier to get information out of manufacturers in Taiwan, than Cupertino and 2. The G4 problems/ 10.3 (64bit) OS will give Apple a HUGE lead in desktop/portable computing businesses.
The 7457 should be available in quantity by September, but again its only going to be about 1G - sure half the power, great but it will need to be overcloked (not a problem) to speed bump Apple's current line.
Just my 2 cents
http://www.oscast.com/stories/storyReader$278
"A source close to Apple recently relayed information to oscast suggesting that Apple had intended to use emulation software to show the power and performance of its upcoming hardware. This individual stated that Windows software running in emulation performed certain instructions significantly faster than what a hard PC was able to do."
I'm assuming the upcoming hardware is the 970 based Macs - but does the 970 (as fast as it is) have enough 'oomph' to emulate PCs at speed?
Originally posted by Reductionist
"A source close to Apple recently relayed information to oscast suggesting that Apple had intended to use emulation software to show the power and performance of its upcoming hardware. This individual stated that Windows software running in emulation performed certain instructions significantly faster than what a hard PC was able to do."
Color me skeptical. First, the 970 is fast, but I don't think it's that fast. Emulating a CPU with a completely different design philosophy can't be done efficiently. The 970 is not going to get hobbled running code that assumes a fat pipe to RAM the way the G4 was, but still. Connectix has said that hardware emulation doesn't thread well, so it's hard to bring multiple processors to bear on the issue.
Second, I don't see that it's in Apple's interest to build a better Windows PC. If they do, then Windows development effectively becomes cross-platform, and the companies that currently spend extra money maintaining two codebases will jump at the chance to get rid of one of those. Guess which one. There are a few small things that might hold some vendors back (AppleScript?), but I wouldn't bet on it.
Screed