Johny Srouji says the Apple Silicon strategy challenged Apple

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  • Reply 41 of 55
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,803member
    What’s with the hate on Avon? 

    He’s absolutely right, Apple wasn’t the first company to take CPU production in-house (though arguably they’d been doing just that for years previously with their iphone/iPad/Watch SoC’s). 

    Apple are the first to do so for traditional PCs in a successful fashion (like, way successful), but they’re also one of the four or five biggest computer manufacturers — and the richest company in the industry. 

    Still, I wasn’t aware of those other efforts. Thanks, Avon, for pointing them out. 

    It seems strange that one of few people on these forums with enough insight into the industry beyond the Apple bubble be met with such antagonism merely for offering perspective to a discussion. 

    I’m surprised that some people apparently can’t accept even the suggestion that others may have had similar impulses to Apple’s, as though their personal identity hinged upon the Biggest Fukcing Company in the History of Everything also being the sole arbiter of everything worthy…? 

    I mean, I was a pretty rabid fanboy in the 90s, but Apple really, really no longer needs that bullshit. Their critical success speaks plenty to the quality of their products. 

    What gives?
    FileMakerFellerwilliamlondondewmemuthuk_vanalingam
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  • Reply 42 of 55
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    spheric said:
    What’s with the hate on Avon? 

    He’s absolutely right, Apple wasn’t the first company to take CPU production in-house (though arguably they’d been doing just that for years previously with their iphone/iPad/Watch SoC’s). 

    Apple are the first to do so for traditional PCs in a successful fashion (like, way successful), but they’re also one of the four or five biggest computer manufacturers — and the richest company in the industry. 

    Still, I wasn’t aware of those other efforts. Thanks, Avon, for pointing them out. 

    It seems strange that one of few people on these forums with enough insight into the industry beyond the Apple bubble be met with such antagonism merely for offering perspective to a discussion. 

    I’m surprised that some people apparently can’t accept even the suggestion that others may have had similar impulses to Apple’s, as though their personal identity hinged upon the Biggest Fukcing Company in the History of Everything also being the sole arbiter of everything worthy…? 

    I mean, I was a pretty rabid fanboy in the 90s, but Apple really, really no longer needs that bullshit. Their critical success speaks plenty to the quality of their products. 

    What gives?
    You stepped in poo.

    Huawei doesn't have any processors that are competitive in PC's with Intel, AMD, or Apple, nor are they competitive in SOC's in smartphones. You're free to find me one, or any, for that matter, but I'll expect a linkI(s).

    HiSilicon, which is Huawei's design house, does not have access to leading edge fabs. Again, you are free to find a Fab in China that is 7nm or smaller, or even a fab in Taiwan or South Korea, that is producing SOC's for Huawei/HiSilicon.

    Good luck!
    williamlondonqwerty52melgrosswatto_cobra
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  • Reply 43 of 55
    avon b7 said:
    That article says the strategy was announced in 2018. No mention of shipping products (that I saw). The article at aibusiness.com is dated July 2021 and says that Huawei has built its cloud using the Ascend series chips and uses that to power its AI services. So, maybe the timeline is the same as Apple's? We just don't know, since Apple doesn't announce anything until it's shipping.

    Plus, if all Huawei has is its cloud service (a big if, but I'm short of time to research) then we don't really have a comparison for their hardware vs Apple's. And with the trade restrictions in place on Huawei it's unlikely we'll get hardware performance analysis that won't be derided as untrustworthy because of its source.

    But it's good to see more than one company trying to control the whole stack - it is at least some validation that the approach is worthwhile.
    williamlondonsphericmelgrosswatto_cobra
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  • Reply 44 of 55
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    avon b7 said:
    That article says the strategy was announced in 2018. No mention of shipping products (that I saw). The article at aibusiness.com is dated July 2021 and says that Huawei has built its cloud using the Ascend series chips and uses that to power its AI services. So, maybe the timeline is the same as Apple's? We just don't know, since Apple doesn't announce anything until it's shipping.

    Plus, if all Huawei has is its cloud service (a big if, but I'm short of time to research) then we don't really have a comparison for their hardware vs Apple's. And with the trade restrictions in place on Huawei it's unlikely we'll get hardware performance analysis that won't be derided as untrustworthy because of its source.

    But it's good to see more than one company trying to control the whole stack - it is at least some validation that the approach is worthwhile.
    Uhm, that's exactly what Nvidia has been doing for the last decade;

    https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/products/ai-enterprise-suite/trial/?ncid=pa-srch-goog-359879&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy-qq9s-e9wIVzsLCBB0_xgIuEAAYASAAEgIL8_D_BwE#cid=hpc09_pa-srch-goog_en-us

    But of course, avon b7 moves the goalpost to favorably compare Huawei with Apple, as if Apple competes with Huawei in anything at all anymore, excepting maybe earbuds.

    williamlondonqwerty52melgrosswatto_cobra
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  • Reply 45 of 55
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    avon b7 said:
    That article says the strategy was announced in 2018. No mention of shipping products (that I saw). The article at aibusiness.com is dated July 2021 and says that Huawei has built its cloud using the Ascend series chips and uses that to power its AI services. So, maybe the timeline is the same as Apple's? We just don't know, since Apple doesn't announce anything until it's shipping.

    Plus, if all Huawei has is its cloud service (a big if, but I'm short of time to research) then we don't really have a comparison for their hardware vs Apple's. And with the trade restrictions in place on Huawei it's unlikely we'll get hardware performance analysis that won't be derided as untrustworthy because of its source.

    But it's good to see more than one company trying to control the whole stack - it is at least some validation that the approach is worthwhile.
    The official product availability was announced on schedule in August 2019. 

    https://www.cio.com/article/217662/worlds-most-powerful-ai-processor-meets-the-market-here-is-how-to-buy-it.html

    Ascend isn't limited to Cloud based hardware either. It is used throughout a wide swathe of Huawei products that stretch from headphones to data centers. 

    The cluster systems are used for cloud based tasks but also in investigation, science, health, mining... 
    spheric
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  • Reply 46 of 55
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    That article says the strategy was announced in 2018. No mention of shipping products (that I saw). The article at aibusiness.com is dated July 2021 and says that Huawei has built its cloud using the Ascend series chips and uses that to power its AI services. So, maybe the timeline is the same as Apple's? We just don't know, since Apple doesn't announce anything until it's shipping.

    Plus, if all Huawei has is its cloud service (a big if, but I'm short of time to research) then we don't really have a comparison for their hardware vs Apple's. And with the trade restrictions in place on Huawei it's unlikely we'll get hardware performance analysis that won't be derided as untrustworthy because of its source.

    But it's good to see more than one company trying to control the whole stack - it is at least some validation that the approach is worthwhile.
    Uhm, that's exactly what Nvidia has been doing for the last decade;

    https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/products/ai-enterprise-suite/trial/?ncid=pa-srch-goog-359879&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy-qq9s-e9wIVzsLCBB0_xgIuEAAYASAAEgIL8_D_BwE#cid=hpc09_pa-srch-goog_en-us

    But of course, avon b7 moves the goalpost to favorably compare Huawei with Apple, as if Apple competes with Huawei in anything at all anymore, excepting maybe earbuds.

    Where were any goalposts moved? 

    The post I was replying to was incorrect. I pointed that out with examples. That was it. 

    You then jumped in with your usual off topic counterpoint (which had nothing to do with my point) and quoted something that doesn't make too much sense.

    Let me ask you again. What exactly is Apple's entire product range? 

    nVidia references are wacky too. What is your point? 

    I could have mentioned nVidia, Qualcomm and but I stuck to what I know. I think that's reasonable. 

    I even let all that go and didn't bring it up in my reply - until you jumped in feet first with your irrelevant comments.

    Do you now at least understand what 'all scenario' means? 
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  • Reply 47 of 55
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    That article says the strategy was announced in 2018. No mention of shipping products (that I saw). The article at aibusiness.com is dated July 2021 and says that Huawei has built its cloud using the Ascend series chips and uses that to power its AI services. So, maybe the timeline is the same as Apple's? We just don't know, since Apple doesn't announce anything until it's shipping.

    Plus, if all Huawei has is its cloud service (a big if, but I'm short of time to research) then we don't really have a comparison for their hardware vs Apple's. And with the trade restrictions in place on Huawei it's unlikely we'll get hardware performance analysis that won't be derided as untrustworthy because of its source.

    But it's good to see more than one company trying to control the whole stack - it is at least some validation that the approach is worthwhile.
    Uhm, that's exactly what Nvidia has been doing for the last decade;

    https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/products/ai-enterprise-suite/trial/?ncid=pa-srch-goog-359879&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy-qq9s-e9wIVzsLCBB0_xgIuEAAYASAAEgIL8_D_BwE#cid=hpc09_pa-srch-goog_en-us

    But of course, avon b7 moves the goalpost to favorably compare Huawei with Apple, as if Apple competes with Huawei in anything at all anymore, excepting maybe earbuds.

    Where were any goalposts moved? 

    The post I was replying to was incorrect. I pointed that out with examples. That was it. 

    You then jumped in with your usual off topic counterpoint (which had nothing to do with my point) and quoted something that doesn't make too much sense.

    Let me ask you again. What exactly is Apple's entire product range? 

    nVidia references are wacky too. What is your point? 

    I could have mentioned nVidia, Qualcomm and but I stuck to what I know. I think that's reasonable. 

    I even let all that go and didn't bring it up in my reply - until you jumped in feet first with your irrelevant comments.

    Do you now at least understand what 'all scenario' means? 
    You pointed out examples of Huawei Silicon that don't exist in the marketplace, and I provided links to that effect. Then you followed up with a scattershot portrait of all of the wonderful technologies that Huawei is dabbling in, in markets that Apple chooses not to enter. You are posting misinformation, and more to the point, you are unable or unwilling to admit that Apple has been extremely successful, and disruptive, with Apple Silicon. 

    My point with Nvidia is that they are massively ahead of Huawei in AI hardware in the marketplace, and it isn't even close. 

    https://www.investors.com/news/technology/nvidia-stock-is-undisputed-leader-in-ai-chips-but-competition-rising/

    Graphics-chip maker Nvidia (NVDA) leads the market for artificial intelligence chips today, but rising competition means it can't rest on its laurels, a Wall Street analyst says. Nvidia stock surged on Monday.
    No mention in that article of anything Huawei...

    Really tired of your bias against all things Apple on this very Apple centric site, and your bias for all things Huawei, to the point that you have again today overtly demonstrated the very bias that I have called you out for over and over for all of the years you have been posting here.

    One would think that Huawei would have massive fan sites that you could camp out in, no? 
    edited April 2022
    qwerty52williamlondonmelgrosswatto_cobra
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  • Reply 48 of 55
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    That article says the strategy was announced in 2018. No mention of shipping products (that I saw). The article at aibusiness.com is dated July 2021 and says that Huawei has built its cloud using the Ascend series chips and uses that to power its AI services. So, maybe the timeline is the same as Apple's? We just don't know, since Apple doesn't announce anything until it's shipping.

    Plus, if all Huawei has is its cloud service (a big if, but I'm short of time to research) then we don't really have a comparison for their hardware vs Apple's. And with the trade restrictions in place on Huawei it's unlikely we'll get hardware performance analysis that won't be derided as untrustworthy because of its source.

    But it's good to see more than one company trying to control the whole stack - it is at least some validation that the approach is worthwhile.
    Uhm, that's exactly what Nvidia has been doing for the last decade;

    https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/data-center/products/ai-enterprise-suite/trial/?ncid=pa-srch-goog-359879&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIy-qq9s-e9wIVzsLCBB0_xgIuEAAYASAAEgIL8_D_BwE#cid=hpc09_pa-srch-goog_en-us

    But of course, avon b7 moves the goalpost to favorably compare Huawei with Apple, as if Apple competes with Huawei in anything at all anymore, excepting maybe earbuds.

    Where were any goalposts moved? 

    The post I was replying to was incorrect. I pointed that out with examples. That was it. 

    You then jumped in with your usual off topic counterpoint (which had nothing to do with my point) and quoted something that doesn't make too much sense.

    Let me ask you again. What exactly is Apple's entire product range? 

    nVidia references are wacky too. What is your point? 

    I could have mentioned nVidia, Qualcomm and but I stuck to what I know. I think that's reasonable. 

    I even let all that go and didn't bring it up in my reply - until you jumped in feet first with your irrelevant comments.

    Do you now at least understand what 'all scenario' means? 
    You pointed out examples of Huawei Silicon that don't exist in the marketplace, and I provided links to that effect. You are posting misinformation, and more to the point, you are unable or unwilling to admit that Apple has been extremely successful, and disruptive, with Apple Silicon. 

    My point with Nvidia is that they are massively ahead of Huawei in AI hardware in the marketplace, and it isn't even close. 

    Really tired of your bias against all things Apple on this very Apple centric site, and your bias for all things Huawei, to the point that you have again today overtly demonstrated the very bias that I have called you out for over and over for all of the years you have been posting here.

    One would think that Huawei would have massive fan sites that you could camp out in, no? 
    So, you simply ignored my original post entirely! 

    Here it is again, in full:

    "From September 2019:

    https://e.huawei.com/en/products/servers/kunpeng/kunpeng-desktop-board

    And later from 2021:

    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/huawei-dyna-cloud-kirin-9006c

    Just a toe dip as that design was aimed at business customers in China but Apple wasn't alone in its thinking here. "

    Short and to the point and with supporting links. 

    That was it. The OP was incorrect. 

    No goalposts were ever moved. 

    My other post was in reply to your own post (not the OP) where you simply thrashed around off topic. 

    If you hadn't jumped in feet first, you wouldn't find yourself in this situation (an ever deeper hole you are digging for yourself) and I wouldn't be needing to correct you.

    Let me ask you yet again (seeing as it is from something you chose to quote):

    What is Apple's entire product range?

    Why aren't you answering that?

    I gave you examples from a wide range of Huawei products.

    Neither nVidia nor Qualcomm (or Google) have the same breadth so Huawei was a decent example.

    But then again, neither does Apple, does it? 

    And that was part of what I was saying and just serves to highlight how incorrect the OP was. 
    edited April 2022
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  • Reply 49 of 55
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,327member
    tmay said:
    spheric said:
    What’s with the hate on Avon? 

    He’s absolutely right, Apple wasn’t the first company to take CPU production in-house (though arguably they’d been doing just that for years previously with their iphone/iPad/Watch SoC’s). 

    Apple are the first to do so for traditional PCs in a successful fashion (like, way successful), but they’re also one of the four or five biggest computer manufacturers — and the richest company in the industry. 

    Still, I wasn’t aware of those other efforts. Thanks, Avon, for pointing them out. 

    It seems strange that one of few people on these forums with enough insight into the industry beyond the Apple bubble be met with such antagonism merely for offering perspective to a discussion. 

    I’m surprised that some people apparently can’t accept even the suggestion that others may have had similar impulses to Apple’s, as though their personal identity hinged upon the Biggest Fukcing Company in the History of Everything also being the sole arbiter of everything worthy…? 

    I mean, I was a pretty rabid fanboy in the 90s, but Apple really, really no longer needs that bullshit. Their critical success speaks plenty to the quality of their products. 

    What gives?
    You stepped in poo.

    Huawei doesn't have any processors that are competitive in PC's with Intel, AMD, or Apple, nor are they competitive in SOC's in smartphones. You're free to find me one, or any, for that matter, but I'll expect a linkI(s).

    HiSilicon, which is Huawei's design house, does not have access to leading edge fabs. Again, you are free to find a Fab in China that is 7nm or smaller, or even a fab in Taiwan or South Korea, that is producing SOC's for Huawei/HiSilicon.

    Good luck!
    Oh dear! 

    Not competitive!? 

    I have spent the last few years providing you with many links to show how Huawei SoCs have been very competitive.

    You know, with things like dual frequency GPS, dual ISPs, WiFi, 5G...

    You must be kidding? 

    As far back as 2017 I was giving you examples of how bad iPhones were when using satellite navigation in tricky situations. Bad because they lacked dual frequency GPS and Huawei was pitting its SoCs against Apple in its demos.

    Remember Wi-Fi? Huawei shipped its on-Soc, homegrown Wi-Fi chipset which was the world's fastest Wi-Fi chipset at the time.

    Then it said in an interview that its own Wi-Fi 5 was actually faster than Apple's WiFi 6!

    Huawei shipped WiFi 6+ for its own ecosystem taking advantage of its 5G developments. 

    Remember low light photography? Huawei"s ISPs were doing the heavy lifting on-SoC and blowing Apple literally into the dark shadows of the night. Once again, Huawei pitted it's results directly against Apple's in product presentations. 

    Remember 5G? Once again Huawei plunked its (again, homegrown) 5G modem on-SoC while Apple had to make do with an old third party modem and not even on Soc!  Bolted on!

    Huawei even managed to cram in a far higher transistor count to the competing Apple product.

    Process nodes? Huawei has been right up there with Apple until politics got in the way. Their 3nm designs are long completed.

    Remember the NPU? Apple severely underused it out of the gate but Huawei was using it all over the product! Even for some fun stuff! 


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  • Reply 50 of 55
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,803member
    tmay said:
    No mention in that article of anything Huawei...

    Really tired of your bias against all things Apple on this very Apple centric site, and your bias for all things Huawei, to the point that you have again today overtly demonstrated the very bias that I have called you out for over and over for all of the years you have been posting here.

    One would think that Huawei would have massive fan sites that you could camp out in, no? 
    Jeez man, LAY OFF ALREADY. 

    The basis of a discussion is not that one side has to be completely wrong and destroyed — that's war. 

    In a discussion, both sides may be right, one's argument may be less applicable or make more sense depending upon the viewpoint. 

    I do have to wonder why the hell you're so utterly terrified that someone other than Apple may have had an idea that everyone's been floating for a decade, and then unsuccessfully followed through on it? 

    Why can't you just write that others' attempts don't appear to have been successful, and that they couldn't compete with existing PC CPU platforms? Are you simply unable to formulate a position without pegging an "enemy" that you need to prove utterly wrong and destroy? 

    Did you know that others had previously unsuccessfully tried in-house CPU architectures for their PCs? 

    I didn't. 

    Do you not find it interesting? Move on, then. Write "that's not relevant" and a brief explanation of why you think so. 

    But your current approach makes it look like you just shat your pants and are holding hostages to distract from it. 
    crowleymuthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondon
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  • Reply 51 of 55
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    spheric said:
    tmay said:
    No mention in that article of anything Huawei...

    Really tired of your bias against all things Apple on this very Apple centric site, and your bias for all things Huawei, to the point that you have again today overtly demonstrated the very bias that I have called you out for over and over for all of the years you have been posting here.

    One would think that Huawei would have massive fan sites that you could camp out in, no? 
    Jeez man, LAY OFF ALREADY. 

    The basis of a discussion is not that one side has to be completely wrong and destroyed — that's war. 

    In a discussion, both sides may be right, one's argument may be less applicable or make more sense depending upon the viewpoint. 

    I do have to wonder why the hell you're so utterly terrified that someone other than Apple may have had an idea that everyone's been floating for a decade, and then unsuccessfully followed through on it? 

    Why can't you just write that others' attempts don't appear to have been successful, and that they couldn't compete with existing PC CPU platforms? Are you simply unable to formulate a position without pegging an "enemy" that you need to prove utterly wrong and destroy? 

    Did you know that others had previously unsuccessfully tried in-house CPU architectures for their PCs? 

    I didn't. 

    Do you not find it interesting? Move on, then. Write "that's not relevant" and a brief explanation of why you think so. 

    But your current approach makes it look like you just shat your pants and are holding hostages to distract from it. 
    Whatever...

    Here's a teardown of the M1 Ultra



    Looks uncommon for a PC..
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
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  • Reply 52 of 55
    mcdave said:
    Apple is far from established and is coming up light on its promises. It has a significant problem & it isn’t the ISA. Until product managers allow significant forks for macOS-specific frameworks (Accelerate & Metal/TBDR) and commit to UMA architecture, as Serif has, Apple Silicon will struggle to demonstrate its value.
    It demands a mindset shift away from CPU OR GPU benchmarks to APU or Application benchmarks & preferably not those from an x86 vendor like Puget Systems.

    What are you talking about?  Accelerate is tuned to each OS and each instance of hardware/chip. Metal and the Apple Silicon hardware have been codeveloped all along.  
    tmaywilliamlondonthtwatto_cobra
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  • Reply 53 of 55
    Android shills and their defenders, sounds like MacRumors.
    tmaywatto_cobra
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  • Reply 54 of 55
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,803member
    tmay said:

    Here's a teardown of the M1 Ultra



    Looks uncommon for a PC..
    No disagreement. 
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
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