EU to say Apple Pay breaks antitrust laws

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 35
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,339member
    lkrupp said:
    Why doesn’t the EU just go ahead and ban Apple from doing business in their territory? They seem to hate everything the company stands for. Their regulations will undoubtedly cause confusion and anger for users. So you have a third party payment system that uses iOS NFC. Who does the user complain to when things go south? Same goes for third party app payments. Your kid runs up a $1K tab buying tokens for some game but you installed the app outside the App Store and paid for it outside the App Store. When you call in the news media to get your revenge who do you blame for the ripoff? Apple? 
    No confusion. No anger.

    It's NFC. If it's certified (which it must be), there is no problem. 

    Like Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, USB mass storage, charging etc. 

    Why is it that I can choose between a selection of payment options using NFC (I use BBVA Pay) on my phone but my wife (running the same card/app) cannot choose that option on her iPhone?

    The answer is that Apple simply doesn't allow it. 

    Should Apple be reserving NFC only for its own payment system? It looks like the EU thinks it shouldn't. 


    edited April 28 ctt_zhmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 22 of 35
    JinTechJinTech Posts: 917member
    avon b7 said:
    lkrupp said:
    Why doesn’t the EU just go ahead and ban Apple from doing business in their territory? They seem to hate everything the company stands for. Their regulations will undoubtedly cause confusion and anger for users. So you have a third party payment system that uses iOS NFC. Who does the user complain to when things go south? Same goes for third party app payments. Your kid runs up a $1K tab buying tokens for some game but you installed the app outside the App Store and paid for it outside the App Store. When you call in the news media to get your revenge who do you blame for the ripoff? Apple? 
    No confusion. No anger.

    It's NFC. If it's certified (which it must be), there is no problem. 

    Like Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, USB mass storage, charging etc. 

    Why is it that I can choose between a selection of payment options using NFC (I use BBVA Pay) on my phone but my wife (running the same card/app) cannot choose that option on her iPhone?

    The answer is that Apple simply doesn't allow it. 

    Should Apple be reserving NFC only for its own payment system? It looks like the EU thinks it shouldn't. 


    The real question is not why you can, but does your wife even want to choose her payment option using NFC? Apple makes a specific type of product, and it just happens that people enjoy using this product. If they wanted more choices, they would choose the Android platform. People generally know what they are signing up for with Apple and if they don't know, and don't like the options/solutions Apple provides, they are free to switch, no harm, no foul. I don't think I have ever heard Apple blasting a user if they decide to switch platforms.
    lolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 35
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,339member
    JinTech said:
    avon b7 said:
    lkrupp said:
    Why doesn’t the EU just go ahead and ban Apple from doing business in their territory? They seem to hate everything the company stands for. Their regulations will undoubtedly cause confusion and anger for users. So you have a third party payment system that uses iOS NFC. Who does the user complain to when things go south? Same goes for third party app payments. Your kid runs up a $1K tab buying tokens for some game but you installed the app outside the App Store and paid for it outside the App Store. When you call in the news media to get your revenge who do you blame for the ripoff? Apple? 
    No confusion. No anger.

    It's NFC. If it's certified (which it must be), there is no problem. 

    Like Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, USB mass storage, charging etc. 

    Why is it that I can choose between a selection of payment options using NFC (I use BBVA Pay) on my phone but my wife (running the same card/app) cannot choose that option on her iPhone?

    The answer is that Apple simply doesn't allow it. 

    Should Apple be reserving NFC only for its own payment system? It looks like the EU thinks it shouldn't. 


    The real question is not why you can, but does your wife even want to choose her payment option using NFC? Apple makes a specific type of product, and it just happens that people enjoy using this product. If they wanted more choices, they would choose the Android platform. People generally know what they are signing up for with Apple and if they don't know, and don't like the options/solutions Apple provides, they are free to switch, no harm, no foul. I don't think I have ever heard Apple blasting a user if they decide to switch platforms.
    Choice is always good. 

    Why wouldn't she want to use NFC? It's what Apple uses. 

    She wasn't aware of the limitations on third party options until it popped up in conversation and she was royally upset at not having the option to choose for herself and now uses her card instead. 

    I'd say that the vast majority of users have absolutely no idea of the limitations Apple imposes on many users from app store options, payment options, NFC restrictions, repair options/consequences etc. 
    ctt_zhmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 24 of 35
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,353member
    Is there any meaningful variation in NFC payment options on Android?  I.e. are there offers or incentives for using e.g. Google Pay over Samsung Pay?

    Genuinely asking, I don’t know the answer, and I’d like to have an idea of what value the choice would bring. 
    lolliver
  • Reply 25 of 35
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,339member
    crowley said:
    Is there any meaningful variation in NFC payment options on Android?  I.e. are there offers or incentives for using e.g. Google Pay over Samsung Pay?

    Genuinely asking, I don’t know the answer, and I’d like to have an idea of what value the choice would bring. 
    AFAIK there are no direct consumer facing offers or incentives.

    The choice aspect is related to market conditioning and restriction of competition. 

    In this case Apple is denying choice and essentially becoming a forced middleman to every single transaction in the contactless payment Apple pie. Every transaction equates to money for Apple. 

    It literally wants to have its cake and eat it. 

    It's possible this is where it is falling foul to regulators. 

    The NFC hardware is simply the bridge for the communication and Apple is not allowing third parties access to it. 

    It is not totally dissimilar to how Apple deliberately doesn't include a Bluetooth profile for file transfers and in doing so cuts off another viable bridge to the outside world and virtually forces users to use its own file transfer systems for direct device-to-device transfers. 

    In terms of contactless payment options, providing third party access to the NFC hardware would allow for users to decide which payment services to use and, indirectly, which companies take the cut and get access to the metadata associated with purchases. 

    edited April 29
  • Reply 26 of 35
    cropr said:
    I do understand the EU.  

    I am an app developer.   From an app developer perspective, I can choose my payment system provider I want if my app is running on Windows, on Mac, on Linux and even on Android (although Google does not like the latter), but I cannot choose my payment system provider on iOS.

    ...

    Apple chose — fourteen years ago — to adopt the retail store model for iPhone/iPad, as did all game consoles, BlackBerry, Kindle, and I think PalmPilot. Not the flea market model of the traditional PC. Is there some reason why iPhone and iPad should be required, after all these years, to convert to the anything-goes PC model? Maybe Macy's should be required to convert their stores to flea markets where anyone can sell anything, and accept any payment method. It's just plain wrong that you have to checkout at Macy's registers when you shop at Macy's — isn't it? And why should you be limited to a Macy's-curated choice of third-party products?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 35
    I think it all boils down to this: The EU's competition authorities are operating on the theory that people who use Apple's iPhone should have a choice to use it Apple's way, or use it some other way (provided by other parties). And if Apple doesn't allow that, then the user's choice is being taken away, and that's an anticompetitive, antitrust issue.

    The fundamental flaw in this thinking is that the user already has that choice, right now. Buy an iPhone, or buy an Android phone. In the USA, fully 50% buy Android phones, and worldwide it's a lot higher than that. The EU's commission is planning to take away that choice: yes, you'll still be able to buy an iPhone, but it work much more like Android. And all the users who looked at Android vs. iPhone, and chose iPhone because they preferred the controlled, curated system it provides? Too bad for them: that choice will be gone.
    thtwatto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 35
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,339member
    darelrex said:
    I think it all boils down to this: The EU's competition authorities are operating on the theory that people who use Apple's iPhone should have a choice to use it Apple's way, or use it some other way (provided by other parties). And if Apple doesn't allow that, then the user's choice is being taken away, and that's an anticompetitive, antitrust issue.

    The fundamental flaw in this thinking is that the user already has that choice, right now. Buy an iPhone, or buy an Android phone. In the USA, fully 50% buy Android phones, and worldwide it's a lot higher than that. The EU's commission is planning to take away that choice: yes, you'll still be able to buy an iPhone, but it work much more like Android. And all the users who looked at Android vs. iPhone, and chose iPhone because they preferred the controlled, curated system it provides? Too bad for them: that choice will be gone.
    The user does not have that choice because they are never made aware of the limitations prior or at purchase. 

    If they were, I could see Apple's problems in this area vanishing in one foul swoop but the EU would require them to spell out every single limitation in clear and simple language and make purchasers sign off on those limitations. 

    I feel Apple would never go down that route though because many users (once made aware of the limitations) wouldn't accept them and that is the complete opposite of what many here constantly say. 

  • Reply 29 of 35
    There are comments above which suggest Apple Pay is a monopoly.  It plainly isn’t. It just links Apple Pay, as a convenient way to pay using a phone or watch to pretty much any bank account. Apple Pay is merely a facilitator to pay from any bank card.  This can hardly be a monopoly. If the complaint is that you can’t use, say, Google Pay instead of Apple Pay, why would you have an iPhone, you’d have a Google phone?  This is just time and money waste to give civil servants something to do. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 35
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,339member
    There are comments above which suggest Apple Pay is a monopoly.  It plainly isn’t. It just links Apple Pay, as a convenient way to pay using a phone or watch to pretty much any bank account. Apple Pay is merely a facilitator to pay from any bank card.  This can hardly be a monopoly. If the complaint is that you can’t use, say, Google Pay instead of Apple Pay, why would you have an iPhone, you’d have a Google phone?  This is just time and money waste to give civil servants something to do. 
    Surely with that logic, Gmail, Google Maps etc wouldn't be needed on an iPhone either. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 31 of 35
    darelrexdarelrex Posts: 95member
    avon b7 said:
    The user does not have that choice because they are never made aware of the limitations prior or at purchase. 

    If they were, I could see Apple's problems in this area vanishing in one foul swoop but the EU would require them to spell out every single limitation in clear and simple language and make purchasers sign off on those limitations. 

    I feel Apple would never go down that route though because many users (once made aware of the limitations) wouldn't accept them and that is the complete opposite of what many here constantly say. 

    I doubt the EU would be satisfied if Apple just spelled out the differences between platforms when someone buys an iPhone. It wants to force Apple to eliminate those differences. And what about Android? "Ma'am, before you purchase this Android phone, we must inform you of this long list of problems on Android that don't exist on iPhone ..." Yeah, that'll happen.

    Most people are aware of the differences — and when they're not, then Android gets the big advantage, because the shopper always sees the price.

    And don't forget: People really can switch from one platform to the other, and often do.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 35
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,644member
    avon b7 said:
    lkrupp said:
    Why doesn’t the EU just go ahead and ban Apple from doing business in their territory? They seem to hate everything the company stands for. Their regulations will undoubtedly cause confusion and anger for users. So you have a third party payment system that uses iOS NFC. Who does the user complain to when things go south? Same goes for third party app payments. Your kid runs up a $1K tab buying tokens for some game but you installed the app outside the App Store and paid for it outside the App Store. When you call in the news media to get your revenge who do you blame for the ripoff? Apple? 
    No confusion. No anger.

    It's NFC. If it's certified (which it must be), there is no problem. 

    Like Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, USB mass storage, charging etc. 

    Why is it that I can choose between a selection of payment options using NFC (I use BBVA Pay) on my phone but my wife (running the same card/app) cannot choose that option on her iPhone?

    The answer is that Apple simply doesn't allow it. 

    Should Apple be reserving NFC only for its own payment system? It looks like the EU thinks it shouldn't. 


    I did a little googling, just to be more informed.

    For one thing, your BBVA Pay is using Google Pay for it's NFC payment on Android. BBVA Pay made a deal with Google to be included in Google Wallet. The same with PayPal on Google Pay. Android users can also include their PayPal account in their Google Wallet and use it with Google Pay like as though it's a CC or bank account. PayPal on iOS can not use Apple Pay for NFC payments. 

    https://www.bbva.com/en/bbva-usa-a.nnounces-collaboration-with-google-to-offer-digital-bank-accounts/

    But think about this. Why can't you take the CC or debit card or bank account you are using with BBVA Pay (or PayPal) and directly input them into to Google Pay or Apple Pay wallets?  It cost consumers nothing to use Google Pay or Apple Pay with a CC or account that is signed on with Google Pay or Apple Pay. 

    You seem to be thinking that BBVA Pay developed  their own payment system using the NFC chip on an Android device. You are wrong. BBVA Pay is using Google Pay to make their NFC payment. And here's why. I cost BBVA Pay nothing to be in Google Wallet and use Google Pay for their NFC transaction. With Apple Pay, Apple charges a very small percentage of their transaction fee. Which can not be passed on to iOS customers using Apple Pay.  Google is more concern about having more access to users personal data, than the money made from charging a fee with Google Pay.   

    So how do you know that the reason why BBVA Pay (or PayPal) is not using NFC on iOS is because Apple do not allow it? Could it be that BBVA (or PayPal) do not agree with the terms Apple has in order to use Apple Pay and they would not spend the cost it would take to develop and maintain their own wallets, even if they had access to Apple NFC? 

    The lawsuit in Australia was about 4 of the biggest banks wanting to use Apple Pay NFC for their CC, but didn't want to pay Apple a small percentage of their transaction fee, to be included in Apple Wallet. They wanted to create their own "wallet" and have access to NFC in iOS, to bypass paying Apple a small percentage of their transaction fees. They lost that suit.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/apple-pay-control-australia-court-ruling-win-banks-national-australia-bank-westpac-commonwealth-bank-of-australia-a7660046.html

    Germany on the other hand, ruled that Apple must allow access of their NFC to other payment service providers (PSP) However, Germany also ruled that Apple can charge PSP a "fee" for this access. So depending on the "fee' that Apple is allowed to charge, it might make more sense for PSP to use Apple Pay for NFC, rather than to develop and maintain their own wallet in iOS. Specially if iOS users CC and banking info is much more secure stored in Apple Wallet, than in the wallet of a third party app.

    https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=01e51365-3e74-4fc4-ab84-0ef009d5ccfd

    >The system enterprise is entitled to charge "an appropriate fee" for granting access to the PSP. Obviously what constitutes an appropriate fee will be up for discussion.< 





     

     
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 35
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,339member
    davidw said:
    avon b7 said:
    lkrupp said:
    Why doesn’t the EU just go ahead and ban Apple from doing business in their territory? They seem to hate everything the company stands for. Their regulations will undoubtedly cause confusion and anger for users. So you have a third party payment system that uses iOS NFC. Who does the user complain to when things go south? Same goes for third party app payments. Your kid runs up a $1K tab buying tokens for some game but you installed the app outside the App Store and paid for it outside the App Store. When you call in the news media to get your revenge who do you blame for the ripoff? Apple? 
    No confusion. No anger.

    It's NFC. If it's certified (which it must be), there is no problem. 

    Like Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, USB mass storage, charging etc. 

    Why is it that I can choose between a selection of payment options using NFC (I use BBVA Pay) on my phone but my wife (running the same card/app) cannot choose that option on her iPhone?

    The answer is that Apple simply doesn't allow it. 

    Should Apple be reserving NFC only for its own payment system? It looks like the EU thinks it shouldn't. 


    I did a little googling, just to be more informed.

    For one thing, your BBVA Pay is using Google Pay for it's NFC payment on Android. BBVA Pay made a deal with Google to be included in Google Wallet. The same with PayPal on Google Pay. Android users can also include their PayPal account in their Google Wallet and use it with Google Pay like as though it's a CC or bank account. PayPal on iOS can not use Apple Pay for NFC payments. 

    https://www.bbva.com/en/bbva-usa-a.nnounces-collaboration-with-google-to-offer-digital-bank-accounts/

    But think about this. Why can't you take the CC or debit card or bank account you are using with BBVA Pay (or PayPal) and directly input them into to Google Pay or Apple Pay wallets?  It cost consumers nothing to use Google Pay or Apple Pay with a CC or account that is signed on with Google Pay or Apple Pay. 

    You seem to be thinking that BBVA Pay developed  their own payment system using the NFC chip on an Android device. You are wrong. BBVA Pay is using Google Pay to make their NFC payment. And here's why. I cost BBVA Pay nothing to be in Google Wallet and use Google Pay for their NFC transaction. With Apple Pay, Apple charges a very small percentage of their transaction fee. Which can not be passed on to iOS customers using Apple Pay.  Google is more concern about having more access to users personal data, than the money made from charging a fee with Google Pay.   

    So how do you know that the reason why BBVA Pay (or PayPal) is not using NFC on iOS is because Apple do not allow it? Could it be that BBVA (or PayPal) do not agree with the terms Apple has in order to use Apple Pay and they would not spend the cost it would take to develop and maintain their own wallets, even if they had access to Apple NFC? 

    The lawsuit in Australia was about 4 of the biggest banks wanting to use Apple Pay NFC for their CC, but didn't want to pay Apple a small percentage of their transaction fee, to be included in Apple Wallet. They wanted to create their own "wallet" and have access to NFC in iOS, to bypass paying Apple a small percentage of their transaction fees. They lost that suit.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/apple-pay-control-australia-court-ruling-win-banks-national-australia-bank-westpac-commonwealth-bank-of-australia-a7660046.html

    Germany on the other hand, ruled that Apple must allow access of their NFC to other payment service providers (PSP) However, Germany also ruled that Apple can charge PSP a "fee" for this access. So depending on the "fee' that Apple is allowed to charge, it might make more sense for PSP to use Apple Pay for NFC, rather than to develop and maintain their own wallet in iOS. Specially if iOS users CC and banking info is much more secure stored in Apple Wallet, than in the wallet of a third party app.

    https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=01e51365-3e74-4fc4-ab84-0ef009d5ccfd

    >The system enterprise is entitled to charge "an appropriate fee" for granting access to the PSP. Obviously what constitutes an appropriate fee will be up for discussion.< 





     

     
    Some corrections. 

    I can choose between Google Pay or BBVA Pay on my Android phone. I have BBVA Pay selected and it is set to the default NFC payment option on my phone.

    I do have a card that uses Google Pay but it is NOT the card that is associated with BBVA Pay. I use that card for online (not contactless) purchases.

    Your link is related to BBVA USA (not Spain, where I am) and clearly states that Google is only providing the front end. 
  • Reply 34 of 35
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,240member
    JFC_PA said:
    Visa has access to the iPhone NFC chip. Mastercard has access to the iPhone NFC chip. American Express has access to the iPhone NFC chip. 
    I'm pretty sure Apple Pay works by NOT allowing those card issuers access to the iPhone's NFC chip. In fact, the whole point is that Apple is the SOLE arbiter between the vendors' card readers and the credit banking networks, via their own token system, to remove any chance of fraud. 

    That's the whole point of Apple Pay in the first place. 
    edited May 1 watto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 35
    Another example that shows the EU is a joke.

    Why no complaints about banks withholding their cards from iPhones? Why can they refuse to let customers add their bank card to the iPhone (and enjoy increased security/reduced fraud) yet complain that Apple won’t allow Apps access to NFC?
    Strangely Apple Pay is the preferred system to commit fraud over. It might have something to do with how they withhold the same information from payment processors that could be used to detect fraud.

    https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7ngxm/apple-pay-fraud-spending-sprees-2fa-bots
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