You skipped over my questions. How many iOS games in the top ten or top 100 fully utilize a chip? How do you know that game fully utilized a chip? How many people care a game fully utilized a chip?
you put forth this as a measurement of how good a game is. Now defend it. Why would a chip that has yet to come out to the public be fully utilized?
for me, a game is good if the graphics are good and the game is fun.
We’re talking about Apple Arcade.
Opinions are irrelevant. The original Pac Man is a classic and good game. Doesn’t mean it will fully utilize M2.
How do I know Arcade games don’t fully utilize new hardware? Because the games are required to run on half-decade old hardware.
You do realise that games have graphical settings that can run the gamut from ultra low to ultra high, right? The games you play likely don't look the same game on an iPhone 7 as they do on an iPhone 13. Resolution for one.
e.g. here's Red Dead Redemption 2 PC on minimum settings compared to maximum. You may notice a few differences.
Imagine Sony showing off a PS4 game while talking about how advanced the PS5 is?
Sony have been plenty showing off Horizon Forbidden West and God Of War: Ragnarok, both of which are major tentpole games for the PS5 and have also gotten (the former) or will get (the latter) a PS4 release. At a different graphical level obviously.
Imagine!
Honestly, I think you know jack shit about games for all the whining you do about it.
Arcade development doesn’t work that way. For example, if you want 100 zombies on screen, M2 may be able to handle that action without stutter while an A10 may not be able to at all.
This issue actually happened before with Dead Rising on the Wii where Capcom had to cut down the size of the mall and reduce enemies on screen from 800 to 100. The original on Xbox 360 was bigger and one of the player’s main achievements was killing a ton of zombies which became awkward on Wii.
I’m pretty sure Apple won’t allow an “M version” of a game separate from an “A12 version”. That causes a ton of problems especially for the developer. They can’t just adjust some settings slider like you think.
The older the tech you have to support, the more compromises you have to make. This is why iOS 14 doesn’t run on iPhone 4s and why Apple Arcade won’t run on iPhone 4. If you don’t know this, you should be ashamed of yourself on a tech site.
Regarding Sony, a port and remake are different. Try to place your PS5 disk into PS4 and see if it works. Imagine if Sony said PS5 games have to run on PS4 hardware?
You skipped over my questions. How many iOS games in the top ten or top 100 fully utilize a chip? How do you know that game fully utilized a chip? How many people care a game fully utilized a chip?
you put forth this as a measurement of how good a game is. Now defend it. Why would a chip that has yet to come out to the public be fully utilized?
for me, a game is good if the graphics are good and the game is fun.
We’re talking about Apple Arcade.
Opinions are irrelevant. The original Pac Man is a classic and good game. Doesn’t mean it will fully utilize M2.
On one hand you call Arcade pathetic and now you can concede that some games are good even though they will not fully utilize a chip?
What a weird thing to say the opinions are irrelevant. What???! It has been your opinion that Arcade is pathetic based upon the metric that they don’t fully utilize the chip. My opinion is Arcade is a great service. What matters is enough people have the opinion that they like the service and are willing to pay for in, even as part of a bundle. I’m willing to say people will do so. We love it as there is no ads and no in app purchases. Both are banes of games.
You degrade the service because games won’t fully utilize a chip that most developers don’t have access to yet. You cannot name a single game that fully utilized a chip. Fully utilize all of a chip, cpu, GPU, ml aspects? What about video encoding and decoding?
Can’t control performance using a slider? I guess the render distance slider in Minecraft isn’t a thing. All the performance settings in BeamNG drive, or in the Trainz games I like to play.
Also using your example A series vs M series, which is really desktop vs mobile. You can have universal which does allow desktop vs mobile.
You skipped over my questions. How many iOS games in the top ten or top 100 fully utilize a chip? How do you know that game fully utilized a chip? How many people care a game fully utilized a chip?
you put forth this as a measurement of how good a game is. Now defend it. Why would a chip that has yet to come out to the public be fully utilized?
for me, a game is good if the graphics are good and the game is fun.
We’re talking about Apple Arcade.
Opinions are irrelevant. The original Pac Man is a classic and good game. Doesn’t mean it will fully utilize M2.
On one hand you call Arcade pathetic and now you can concede that some games are good even though they will not fully utilize a chip?
What a weird thing to say the opinions are irrelevant. What???! It has been your opinion that Arcade is pathetic based upon the metric that they don’t fully utilize the chip. My opinion is Arcade is a great service. What matters is enough people have the opinion that they like the service and are willing to pay for in, even as part of a bundle. I’m willing to say people will do so. We love it as there is no ads and no in app purchases. Both are banes of games.
You degrade the service because games won’t fully utilize a chip that most developers don’t have access to yet. You cannot name a single game that fully utilized a chip. Fully utilize all of a chip, cpu, GPU, ml aspects? What about video encoding and decoding?
Can’t control performance using a slider? I guess the render distance slider in Minecraft isn’t a thing. All the performance settings in BeamNG drive, or in the Trainz games I like to play.
Also using your example A series vs M series, which is really desktop vs mobile. You can have universal which does allow desktop vs mobile.
Opinions are irrelevant. How many times have you heard us gamers say Apple Arcade is pathetic because it doesn’t fully take advantage of current Apple hardware? That’s a fact.
A game can be great and 8-bit like Mario. So what? We want games that fully utilize Apple hardware.
Developers DO have access to M1 chips. Heck they have access to the A12 chip! But Apple says they aren’t allowed to fully utilize new hardware for Arcade because it needs to support outdated hardware. This is a huge bottleneck. It means games have to be smaller and less capable. Same reason why iOS 15 won’t be supporting iPhone 4. Apple COULD support outdated hardware with iOS 15 but get ready to kiss a bunch of features goodbye or compromise.
We understand Apple’s stance with Arcade. They wanna cast the net as broad as possible. We aren’t coming after your Candy Crush-style games and those cool side scrollers. We just want games that take advantage of NEW hardware. If Apple allows an exclusive DOOM game that fully utilized M2 doesn’t mean Sneaky Sasquatch will disappear from Apple Arcade. They can easily have the games displayed but greyed out with text reading “requires M2” or “Requires iPhone 12 and above”. This would only entice players to upgrade.
We degrade the service just as much as if Sony said something ludicrous like “your game MUST run on PS4 hardware to develop for PS5”.
I don’t want Apple to dominate mobile. I want them to dominate mobile, computer AND console! These are huge markets + the halo effect could easily earn Apple another 50 billion a year. It’s not like we’re asking them to dominate the furniture business, we want them to dominate something they’re already capable of doing. We also feel lied to when Apple announces new chips and hardware like Apple TV4K only for them to abandon gaming and not support the hardware.
Beats said: This argument has valid points but it doesn’t address what we’re suggesting. Gaming on the App Store fell into Apple’s lap. It’s been 15 years of iPhone and apple has ONE game, Texas Hold ‘Em and no one even knows or cares about it. We’re saying Apple should take gaming seriously. Your argument is that 3rd parties are making Apple a ton of money. So what?
Not sure why you would think it "fell into their lap" when the mobile gaming market didn't really exist prior to the iPhone. Development of the App Store was one contributing factor. Development of the A series chips and their dominant position in terms of graphics performance is another. Development of Metal (available on iOS before being available on Mac) is yet another.
This sounds like what someone new to gaming would say.
Mobile gaming predates Apple by decades. Gameboy made mobile gaming super popular and the DS was absolutely destroying the mobile gaming market. The difference is, Nintendo put gaming FIRST while Apple put gaming LAST.
Apple didn’t even care for 3rd party apps when they were inventing iPhone. When App Store opened, developers flooded it with games. The iPhone was a multi-utility device that naturally helped game developers get into millions of pockets. That’s why I say that.
You skipped over my questions. How many iOS games in the top ten or top 100 fully utilize a chip? How do you know that game fully utilized a chip? How many people care a game fully utilized a chip?
you put forth this as a measurement of how good a game is. Now defend it. Why would a chip that has yet to come out to the public be fully utilized?
for me, a game is good if the graphics are good and the game is fun.
We’re talking about Apple Arcade.
Opinions are irrelevant. The original Pac Man is a classic and good game. Doesn’t mean it will fully utilize M2.
How do I know Arcade games don’t fully utilize new hardware? Because the games are required to run on half-decade old hardware.
You do realise that games have graphical settings that can run the gamut from ultra low to ultra high, right? The games you play likely don't look the same game on an iPhone 7 as they do on an iPhone 13. Resolution for one.
e.g. here's Red Dead Redemption 2 PC on minimum settings compared to maximum. You may notice a few differences.
Imagine Sony showing off a PS4 game while talking about how advanced the PS5 is?
Sony have been plenty showing off Horizon Forbidden West and God Of War: Ragnarok, both of which are major tentpole games for the PS5 and have also gotten (the former) or will get (the latter) a PS4 release. At a different graphical level obviously.
Imagine!
Honestly, I think you know jack shit about games for all the whining you do about it.
Arcade development doesn’t work that way. For example, if you want 100 zombies on screen, M2 may be able to handle that action without stutter while an A10 may not be able to at all.
This issue actually happened before with Dead Rising on the Wii where Capcom had to cut down the size of the mall and reduce enemies on screen from 800 to 100. The original on Xbox 360 was bigger and one of the player’s main achievements was killing a ton of zombies which became awkward on Wii.
I’m pretty sure Apple won’t allow an “M version” of a game separate from an “A12 version”. That causes a ton of problems especially for the developer. They can’t just adjust some settings slider like you think.
The older the tech you have to support, the more compromises you have to make. This is why iOS 14 doesn’t run on iPhone 4s and why Apple Arcade won’t run on iPhone 4. If you don’t know this, you should be ashamed of yourself on a tech site.
Regarding Sony, a port and remake are different. Try to place your PS5 disk into PS4 and see if it works. Imagine if Sony said PS5 games have to run on PS4 hardware?
Ok, so in that one specific example, of a zombie game with massive crowds of objects with AI and pathing you may have a point. That's one CPU-intensive game niche in amongst dozens, and one that doesn't seem to be that well suited to iOS anyway, since there aren't many games in Arcade where you even have dozens of enemies on screen. It's not a genre that has had any kind of breakthrough on iOS, and doesn't really fit the Apple Arcade pitch, so seems a bit absurd to claim it as a major hardware constraint.
Developers absolutely can adjust graphical fidelity within a game (adjust sliders, as you put it). That's exactly how PC and Mac games work. Open almost any game settings screen and you'll see a whole bunch of settings in there, and they'll be set to a default that the game has deduced that your system is capable of. Console games increasingly offer this too, with performance vs quality modes. Utterly bizarre that you'd claim that developers can't do this.
The older the tech you have to support the more effort you have to put in, you don't have to compromise on the newer hardware. See RDR2 screenshot.
Of course a PS5 disc won't work in a PS4, they're different embedded systems. Which makes it a silly thing for you to bring up in the first place. The point is that tentpoles games are appearing on older systems, putting to bed your whiny complaint about Apple prominently featuring a game (that you still bizarrely won't name) for Apple Arcade that was announced a few years ago on older hardware. I can't bring to mind many things that I care less about.
You skipped over my questions. How many iOS games in the top ten or top 100 fully utilize a chip? How do you know that game fully utilized a chip? How many people care a game fully utilized a chip?
you put forth this as a measurement of how good a game is. Now defend it. Why would a chip that has yet to come out to the public be fully utilized?
for me, a game is good if the graphics are good and the game is fun.
We’re talking about Apple Arcade.
Opinions are irrelevant. The original Pac Man is a classic and good game. Doesn’t mean it will fully utilize M2.
On one hand you call Arcade pathetic and now you can concede that some games are good even though they will not fully utilize a chip?
What a weird thing to say the opinions are irrelevant. What???! It has been your opinion that Arcade is pathetic based upon the metric that they don’t fully utilize the chip. My opinion is Arcade is a great service. What matters is enough people have the opinion that they like the service and are willing to pay for in, even as part of a bundle. I’m willing to say people will do so. We love it as there is no ads and no in app purchases. Both are banes of games.
You degrade the service because games won’t fully utilize a chip that most developers don’t have access to yet. You cannot name a single game that fully utilized a chip. Fully utilize all of a chip, cpu, GPU, ml aspects? What about video encoding and decoding?
Can’t control performance using a slider? I guess the render distance slider in Minecraft isn’t a thing. All the performance settings in BeamNG drive, or in the Trainz games I like to play.
Also using your example A series vs M series, which is really desktop vs mobile. You can have universal which does allow desktop vs mobile.
I think Apple Arcade quality is based on expectations. Some people like @Beats don't like the service, because expects larger games. In your case, you seem happy playing mobiles games without ads and IAP. As today, Apple is far behind MS and Sony in quality of games and subscribers. GamePass and PS Now have larger and more diverse library of games. I hope that Apple keeps working with Apple Arcade, considering there is a group of customers that enjoy the service.
You skipped over my questions. How many iOS games in the top ten or top 100 fully utilize a chip? How do you know that game fully utilized a chip? How many people care a game fully utilized a chip?
you put forth this as a measurement of how good a game is. Now defend it. Why would a chip that has yet to come out to the public be fully utilized?
for me, a game is good if the graphics are good and the game is fun.
We’re talking about Apple Arcade.
Opinions are irrelevant. The original Pac Man is a classic and good game. Doesn’t mean it will fully utilize M2.
How do I know Arcade games don’t fully utilize new hardware? Because the games are required to run on half-decade old hardware.
You do realise that games have graphical settings that can run the gamut from ultra low to ultra high, right? The games you play likely don't look the same game on an iPhone 7 as they do on an iPhone 13. Resolution for one.
e.g. here's Red Dead Redemption 2 PC on minimum settings compared to maximum. You may notice a few differences.
Imagine Sony showing off a PS4 game while talking about how advanced the PS5 is?
Sony have been plenty showing off Horizon Forbidden West and God Of War: Ragnarok, both of which are major tentpole games for the PS5 and have also gotten (the former) or will get (the latter) a PS4 release. At a different graphical level obviously.
Imagine!
Honestly, I think you know jack shit about games for all the whining you do about it.
Arcade development doesn’t work that way. For example, if you want 100 zombies on screen, M2 may be able to handle that action without stutter while an A10 may not be able to at all.
This issue actually happened before with Dead Rising on the Wii where Capcom had to cut down the size of the mall and reduce enemies on screen from 800 to 100. The original on Xbox 360 was bigger and one of the player’s main achievements was killing a ton of zombies which became awkward on Wii.
I’m pretty sure Apple won’t allow an “M version” of a game separate from an “A12 version”. That causes a ton of problems especially for the developer. They can’t just adjust some settings slider like you think.
The older the tech you have to support, the more compromises you have to make. This is why iOS 14 doesn’t run on iPhone 4s and why Apple Arcade won’t run on iPhone 4. If you don’t know this, you should be ashamed of yourself on a tech site.
Regarding Sony, a port and remake are different. Try to place your PS5 disk into PS4 and see if it works. Imagine if Sony said PS5 games have to run on PS4 hardware?
Ok, so in that one specific example, of a zombie game with massive crowds of objects with AI and pathing you may have a point. That's one CPU-intensive game niche in amongst dozens, and one that doesn't seem to be that well suited to iOS anyway, since there aren't many games in Arcade where you even have dozens of enemies on screen. It's not a genre that has had any kind of breakthrough on iOS, and doesn't really fit the Apple Arcade pitch, so seems a bit absurd to claim it as a major hardware constraint.
Developers absolutely can adjust graphical fidelity within a game (adjust sliders, as you put it). That's exactly how PC and Mac games work. Open almost any game settings screen and you'll see a whole bunch of settings in there, and they'll be set to a default that the game has deduced that your system is capable of. Console games increasingly offer this too, with performance vs quality modes. Utterly bizarre that you'd claim that developers can't do this.
The older the tech you have to support the more effort you have to put in, you don't have to compromise on the newer hardware. See RDR2 screenshot.
Of course a PS5 disc won't work in a PS4, they're different embedded systems. Which makes it a silly thing for you to bring up in the first place. The point is that tentpoles games are appearing on older systems, putting to bed your whiny complaint about Apple prominently featuring a game (that you still bizarrely won't name) for Apple Arcade that was announced a few years ago on older hardware. I can't bring to mind many things that I care less about.
You skipped over my questions. How many iOS games in the top ten or top 100 fully utilize a chip? How do you know that game fully utilized a chip? How many people care a game fully utilized a chip?
you put forth this as a measurement of how good a game is. Now defend it. Why would a chip that has yet to come out to the public be fully utilized?
for me, a game is good if the graphics are good and the game is fun.
We’re talking about Apple Arcade.
Opinions are irrelevant. The original Pac Man is a classic and good game. Doesn’t mean it will fully utilize M2.
On one hand you call Arcade pathetic and now you can concede that some games are good even though they will not fully utilize a chip?
What a weird thing to say the opinions are irrelevant. What???! It has been your opinion that Arcade is pathetic based upon the metric that they don’t fully utilize the chip. My opinion is Arcade is a great service. What matters is enough people have the opinion that they like the service and are willing to pay for in, even as part of a bundle. I’m willing to say people will do so. We love it as there is no ads and no in app purchases. Both are banes of games.
You degrade the service because games won’t fully utilize a chip that most developers don’t have access to yet. You cannot name a single game that fully utilized a chip. Fully utilize all of a chip, cpu, GPU, ml aspects? What about video encoding and decoding?
Can’t control performance using a slider? I guess the render distance slider in Minecraft isn’t a thing. All the performance settings in BeamNG drive, or in the Trainz games I like to play.
Also using your example A series vs M series, which is really desktop vs mobile. You can have universal which does allow desktop vs mobile.
Opinions are irrelevant. How many times have you heard us gamers say Apple Arcade is pathetic because it doesn’t fully take advantage of current Apple hardware? That’s a fact.
A game can be great and 8-bit like Mario. So what? We want games that fully utilize Apple hardware.
Developers DO have access to M1 chips. Heck they have access to the A12 chip! But Apple says they aren’t allowed to fully utilize new hardware for Arcade because it needs to support outdated hardware. This is a huge bottleneck. It means games have to be smaller and less capable. Same reason why iOS 15 won’t be supporting iPhone 4. Apple COULD support outdated hardware with iOS 15 but get ready to kiss a bunch of features goodbye or compromise.
We understand Apple’s stance with Arcade. They wanna cast the net as broad as possible. We aren’t coming after your Candy Crush-style games and those cool side scrollers. We just want games that take advantage of NEW hardware. If Apple allows an exclusive DOOM game that fully utilized M2 doesn’t mean Sneaky Sasquatch will disappear from Apple Arcade. They can easily have the games displayed but greyed out with text reading “requires M2” or “Requires iPhone 12 and above”. This would only entice players to upgrade.
We degrade the service just as much as if Sony said something ludicrous like “your game MUST run on PS4 hardware to develop for PS5”.
I don't see why hardware specs and the M1 is so important for you. Nintendo showed the market that you can succeed with out high end hardware. Just focus in games and the experience.
I don’t want Apple to dominate mobile. I want them to dominate mobile, computer AND console! These are huge markets + the halo effect could easily earn Apple another 50 billion a year. It’s not like we’re asking them to dominate the furniture business, we want them to dominate something they’re already capable of doing. We also feel lied to when Apple announces new chips and hardware like Apple TV4K only for them to abandon gaming and not support the hardware.
As today, I don't see Apple being capable of dominating gaming. If they are as capable as you said, we should have seen more than what we see today.
Comments
Opinions are irrelevant. The original Pac Man is a classic and good game. Doesn’t mean it will fully utilize M2.
Arcade development doesn’t work that way. For example, if you want 100 zombies on screen, M2 may be able to handle that action without stutter while an A10 may not be able to at all.
This issue actually happened before with Dead Rising on the Wii where Capcom had to cut down the size of the mall and reduce enemies on screen from 800 to 100. The original on Xbox 360 was bigger and one of the player’s main achievements was killing a ton of zombies which became awkward on Wii.
https://youtu.be/xGgkqqQ0SFA
I’m pretty sure Apple won’t allow an “M version” of a game separate from an “A12 version”. That causes a ton of problems especially for the developer. They can’t just adjust some settings slider like you think.
The older the tech you have to support, the more compromises you have to make. This is why iOS 14 doesn’t run on iPhone 4s and why Apple Arcade won’t run on iPhone 4.
If you don’t know this, you should be ashamed of yourself on a tech site.
A game can be great and 8-bit like Mario. So what? We want games that fully utilize Apple hardware.
Developers DO have access to M1 chips. Heck they have access to the A12 chip! But Apple says they aren’t allowed to fully utilize new hardware for Arcade because it needs to support outdated hardware. This is a huge bottleneck. It means games have to be smaller and less capable. Same reason why iOS 15 won’t be supporting iPhone 4. Apple COULD support outdated hardware with iOS 15 but get ready to kiss a bunch of features goodbye or compromise.
We understand Apple’s stance with Arcade. They wanna cast the net as broad as possible. We aren’t coming after your Candy Crush-style games and those cool side scrollers. We just want games that take advantage of NEW hardware. If Apple allows an exclusive DOOM game that fully utilized M2 doesn’t mean Sneaky Sasquatch will disappear from Apple Arcade. They can easily have the games displayed but greyed out with text reading “requires M2” or “Requires iPhone 12 and above”. This would only entice players to upgrade.
We degrade the service just as much as if Sony said something ludicrous like “your game MUST run on PS4 hardware to develop for PS5”.
I don’t want Apple to dominate mobile. I want them to dominate mobile, computer AND console! These are huge markets + the halo effect could easily earn Apple another 50 billion a year. It’s not like we’re asking them to dominate the furniture business, we want them to dominate something they’re already capable of doing. We also feel lied to when Apple announces new chips and hardware like Apple TV4K only for them to abandon gaming and not support the hardware.
Mobile gaming predates Apple by decades. Gameboy made mobile gaming super popular and the DS was absolutely destroying the mobile gaming market. The difference is, Nintendo put gaming FIRST while Apple put gaming LAST.
Apple didn’t even care for 3rd party apps when they were inventing iPhone. When App Store opened, developers flooded it with games. The iPhone was a multi-utility device that naturally helped game developers get into millions of pockets. That’s why I say that.
Developers absolutely can adjust graphical fidelity within a game (adjust sliders, as you put it). That's exactly how PC and Mac games work. Open almost any game settings screen and you'll see a whole bunch of settings in there, and they'll be set to a default that the game has deduced that your system is capable of. Console games increasingly offer this too, with performance vs quality modes. Utterly bizarre that you'd claim that developers can't do this.
The older the tech you have to support the more effort you have to put in, you don't have to compromise on the newer hardware. See RDR2 screenshot.
Of course a PS5 disc won't work in a PS4, they're different embedded systems. Which makes it a silly thing for you to bring up in the first place. The point is that tentpoles games are appearing on older systems, putting to bed your whiny complaint about Apple prominently featuring a game (that you still bizarrely won't name) for Apple Arcade that was announced a few years ago on older hardware. I can't bring to mind many things that I care less about.
As today, I don't see Apple being capable of dominating gaming. If they are as capable as you said, we should have seen more than what we see today.