avon b7 said: The problems arise when you attain gatekeeper status and can actively impede the advance and success of competing platforms. That was the failing of the Amazon and Microsoft efforts (although not the only one).
How did Apple "actively impede" Microsoft or Amazon when it comes to selling mobile phones? They did have apps and you've previously stated your opinion that apps are what makes phone hardware successful.
'Lock in'. 'Stickiness' or whatever word you want to use.
Both Apple and Google are under the microscope for activities that have a direct influence on how users can move between platforms.
In fact, it is just one of the many elements that are being looked at for the EU's DMA.
I would expect the UK to be looking at the exact same elements but perhaps with different names.
Only now, after years of feet being dragged is it getting easier to migrate data from platform to platform.
I actually got a call from someone with a Windows phone IIRC back in the day, who had a simple question. How to move Chrome bookmarks to a different browser. The official way, as per Google help pages at the time, was to use a computer. She didn't have one. I don't remember how I resolved that one but it wasn't a straightforward process. Systems are riddled with pot holes that make migration harder than it should be.
Apps are the lifeblood of all mobile systems and in spite of the existence of web apps.
I'm currently on a migration path to HarmonyOS (for tablets) which does not have a trace of GMS in it so represents a perfect opportunity for me to really see how far Google's tentacles dig into our lives. So I can see, first hand, the difficulties involved in moving off GMS both from a consumer and business perspective.
Believe me, the current situation (the mobile duopoly) is not good for consumers and the more fragmentation from a platform perspective, the better.
It's a lot of fun to see how fast HMS is developing with updates almost daily but not even I would be able to comfortably switch out to HMS in one go.
It's also costing Huawei billions in the process but the system got traction thanks to a pre-existing Chinese market. Microsoft had no such pre-existing market to get traction from.
Ironically, Huawei is in the process of creating new technologies to run Android apps on Windows. That will be another HarmonyOS 'feature' and eventually support for Android apps will be expanded to include HarmonyOS apps on Windows. Microsoft could theoretically take Open Harmony (the open source version of HarmonyOS) and get back into the phone business (Chinese market first) and then ride the coat tails of HarmonyOS to the rest of the world.
The problem is that the mobile industry is now moving into the automotive industry and Microsoft has it own plans there. I can't see Microsoft supporting a system on phones that already has a shipping HarmonyOS Cockpit solution on the market for cars.
Gee, you could have just bought an Amazon Fire tablet to do the same experiment. Both Amazon Fire and Huawei HarmonyOS are forks of Android. So I find it amusing that you are wondering how far Google tentacles dig into our lives by using an OS that was developed, is maintained and kept up to date by Google. Huawei HarmonyOS wouldn't even exist without Google providing Android for free, as Open Source. Android from the ground up was developed by Google with mobile services in mind. Take your tablet, side load the Google Play store and most of the Android apps will run, no problem. The only ones that won't would be he ones that require some other Goole services like G-Mail, One Drive, Google Map, Google Doc, etc.. but all those can also be side loaded. How much you want to bet that when there's a security bug in HarmonyOS, Google will fix it first and then Huawei will apply the fix and take the credit.
Right now, Huawei HarmonyOS is nothing but Android 10 underneath.
>After hours of poking around on HarmonyOS, I couldn't point to a single substantive change compared to Android. Other than a few renamed items, nothing is different. If anyone at Huawei wants to dispute this, I would welcome an example of a single thing in the emulator that is functionally or even aesthetically different from Android. If anyone wants to cry "it's just a beta!," Huawei says this OS will be shipping in commercial phones this year. There does not appear to be time to do a major overhaul from "Android" to "Not Android."
Forking Android and launching your own rebranded operating system is totally fine. But be upfront about that. Say "HarmonyOS is a fork of Android" instead of "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android." Don't call HarmonyOS "all-new" when pretty much the opposite is true.<
And as for Huawei creating new technology to link their OS with Microsoft Windows. That technology already exist. Harmony OS is just Android. Huawei don't have to create anything new to do this. Though they will probably take the credit for it.
I sure hope I didn't spoil your little experiment. Sounded like it was going to be entertaining and fun. Kind of remind me of the time quite a few years back where I opened a G-mail account just because I wanted to activate an Android tablet (if a recall. it was JellyBean on a tablet made by RCA). That's all i did with the G-mail.. Never gave the address out to anyone or sent emails with it. But after a month or so of playing around with the Android tablet, downloading apps, side loading, browsing internet, etc., I check the G-mail account and it was full of ads and spam. Of course I didn't start off wondering about this. But wasn't surprise. Probably could have avoided a lot of this if i took the time use the filters available.
No, you didn't spoil my experiment. You simply made me laugh out loud.
Have you not read my own comments at ARS?
Could you not see just how poor that article was?
Yes, the code that ARS tried to look at was based on Android AOSP but HarmonyOS (and even EMUI) are much, much more than that.
No, the author most definitely did not have to send a copy of his passport to Huawei. That was just one of the options open to him. All laid out (in English and publicly available) on the Huawei developer site. There were others but every non-corporate developer is required to identify themselves as a security measure. It is one of the core measures for AppGallery distribution.
Fork you say? Yes but only in one context and by the same logic, iOS is a fork of Darwin, which is a fork of....
In fact, HarmonyOS was officially released in 2019. If only ARS had done that piece then because they wouldn't have found a trace of even AOSP! The kernel of that version could sit in 10kB of memory.
How could that be, if HarmonyOS is just a mere fork of Android? It very much looks like you are making the same shoddy conclusions as ARS, but as you seem to be drawing your own information from that piece, I should not be surprised I suppose.
Of the various HarmonyOS devices I use daily, the only ones that have an Android fork are the tablet and phone. And sideloading the PlayStore or using Gspace is precisely what I didn't want to do!
So what gives?
Why is HarmonyOS able to do things that Android can't? Like the near instantaneous connection of devices? Why is the entire TEE entirely different?
Why is such a core part of the system different? Did ARS give you an answer to that?
Weird because Huawei did an entire tour and tech briefing (in English) with a lot of key information (yes, including networking) and yet there wasn't a whiff of any of that in the article.
It's also surprising that the author of the piece didn't sit through the three-hour HDC keynote (which was broadcast with simultaneous English translation and is available on YouTube) to even get an idea of what the system is, and more importantly, where it is going. Shocking!
And here you are, regurgitating the same information. Have you done your own research?
Microsoft's effort to get Android apps onto Windows is what Huawei will play off but the Windows base doesn't tie in with HarmonyOS on a collaborative level so a new technology was needed and that will allow for the installation of AppGallery (sanctions, of course play a part here too) and HarmonyOS developed apps.
HarmonyOS on smartphones/tablets needs to run Android compatible apps. HarmonyOS on IoT, cars, routers, TVs, audio devices, wearables etc does not.
That is why the system is designated as 'multi kernel' at this point. ARS seems to have skipped that gigantic detail (even though a non-Android based system had been on devices since 2019!). In fact, elements of HarmonyOS have been tucked away in other Huawei systems for a few years now.
So HarmonyOS will handle all aspects of the CE side of things and OpenEuler will handle the cloud/business/industrial side of things. The two will work in harmony (no pun intended) and as you should be realising by now, AOSP will be quite insignificant in the wider scheme of things.
To use your favorite term ... that is irrelevant.
What's relevant is that you are trying to determine how much Google tentacles dig into our lives by using a tablet whose OS is marketed by Huawei as a new OS they created (HarmonyOS) that will compete with Android. An OS that relies on Google's Open Source Android. How can you determine how much Google tentacles dig into our lives by using an OS that would not exist if it weren't for Google? FAIL
If you want to find out how much Google tentacles dig into our lives, you should have started with an iPad. At least iOS was not created by Google to begin with. And there are more than a few here on this forum, who have gone out of their way to not use anything that has to do with Google on their iDevices. ..... No Google Map, No Google search, No Google doc, No One Drive, No G-mail, No YouTube, No Chrome, etc. In fact iOS do not include any GMS. GMS is only for Android. And they manage just fine. And because there is no GMS on iOS devices, it's Google that has to port their apps to run on iOS, if they want access to Apple iDevice users. It's not like Huawei having to use firmware to block the Google Play Store and GMS from being installed on their devices. The same firmware that they use on their devices in China because the government there ban their citizens from having the "choice" to use anything Google. But they sure as Hell have no problem using Google Open Source Android. Google Play Store and GMS would run just fine on HarmonyOS, if Huawei did not go out of their way to block their installation.
Huawei HarmonyOS is nothing new. It has been in use on their devices for their China customers, for years. Only it might not be called "HarmonyOS".
i find it hypocritical that you are always saying that "choice" matters the most for consumers and then turn around and use a Huawei tablet whose OS purpose is to limit consumers "choice'. At least with an Amazon Fire tablet, one still have the "choice" to install the Google Play Store and any of Google Mobile Services. Amazon did not block the installation of the Google Play Store or any GMS from their Amazon Fire tablets. They just didn't come pre-installed as Amazon did not want to pay Google for the license to do so. If Huawei was labeled a "gatekeeper", they would not be allow to do this in the EU. And you would be cursing them for limiting consumers "choice". What happened to ... It's my device, I paid for it and I should be able to install any software I want, from where I want. ?
And yes, you have the consumer right to choose to use a device that purposely blocks you from purchasing apps from the Google Play Store, for what ever reasons. Just as Apple customers have the consumer right to choose to use a device that purposely limits their apps purchases to the Apple App Store.
avon b7 said: The problems arise when you attain gatekeeper status and can actively impede the advance and success of competing platforms. That was the failing of the Amazon and Microsoft efforts (although not the only one).
How did Apple "actively impede" Microsoft or Amazon when it comes to selling mobile phones? They did have apps and you've previously stated your opinion that apps are what makes phone hardware successful.
'Lock in'. 'Stickiness' or whatever word you want to use.
Both Apple and Google are under the microscope for activities that have a direct influence on how users can move between platforms.
In fact, it is just one of the many elements that are being looked at for the EU's DMA.
I would expect the UK to be looking at the exact same elements but perhaps with different names.
Only now, after years of feet being dragged is it getting easier to migrate data from platform to platform.
I actually got a call from someone with a Windows phone IIRC back in the day, who had a simple question. How to move Chrome bookmarks to a different browser. The official way, as per Google help pages at the time, was to use a computer. She didn't have one. I don't remember how I resolved that one but it wasn't a straightforward process. Systems are riddled with pot holes that make migration harder than it should be.
Apps are the lifeblood of all mobile systems and in spite of the existence of web apps.
I'm currently on a migration path to HarmonyOS (for tablets) which does not have a trace of GMS in it so represents a perfect opportunity for me to really see how far Google's tentacles dig into our lives. So I can see, first hand, the difficulties involved in moving off GMS both from a consumer and business perspective.
Believe me, the current situation (the mobile duopoly) is not good for consumers and the more fragmentation from a platform perspective, the better.
It's a lot of fun to see how fast HMS is developing with updates almost daily but not even I would be able to comfortably switch out to HMS in one go.
It's also costing Huawei billions in the process but the system got traction thanks to a pre-existing Chinese market. Microsoft had no such pre-existing market to get traction from.
Ironically, Huawei is in the process of creating new technologies to run Android apps on Windows. That will be another HarmonyOS 'feature' and eventually support for Android apps will be expanded to include HarmonyOS apps on Windows. Microsoft could theoretically take Open Harmony (the open source version of HarmonyOS) and get back into the phone business (Chinese market first) and then ride the coat tails of HarmonyOS to the rest of the world.
The problem is that the mobile industry is now moving into the automotive industry and Microsoft has it own plans there. I can't see Microsoft supporting a system on phones that already has a shipping HarmonyOS Cockpit solution on the market for cars.
Gee, you could have just bought an Amazon Fire tablet to do the same experiment. Both Amazon Fire and Huawei HarmonyOS are forks of Android. So I find it amusing that you are wondering how far Google tentacles dig into our lives by using an OS that was developed, is maintained and kept up to date by Google. Huawei HarmonyOS wouldn't even exist without Google providing Android for free, as Open Source. Android from the ground up was developed by Google with mobile services in mind. Take your tablet, side load the Google Play store and most of the Android apps will run, no problem. The only ones that won't would be he ones that require some other Goole services like G-Mail, One Drive, Google Map, Google Doc, etc.. but all those can also be side loaded. How much you want to bet that when there's a security bug in HarmonyOS, Google will fix it first and then Huawei will apply the fix and take the credit.
Right now, Huawei HarmonyOS is nothing but Android 10 underneath.
>After hours of poking around on HarmonyOS, I couldn't point to a single substantive change compared to Android. Other than a few renamed items, nothing is different. If anyone at Huawei wants to dispute this, I would welcome an example of a single thing in the emulator that is functionally or even aesthetically different from Android. If anyone wants to cry "it's just a beta!," Huawei says this OS will be shipping in commercial phones this year. There does not appear to be time to do a major overhaul from "Android" to "Not Android."
Forking Android and launching your own rebranded operating system is totally fine. But be upfront about that. Say "HarmonyOS is a fork of Android" instead of "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android." Don't call HarmonyOS "all-new" when pretty much the opposite is true.<
And as for Huawei creating new technology to link their OS with Microsoft Windows. That technology already exist. Harmony OS is just Android. Huawei don't have to create anything new to do this. Though they will probably take the credit for it.
I sure hope I didn't spoil your little experiment. Sounded like it was going to be entertaining and fun. Kind of remind me of the time quite a few years back where I opened a G-mail account just because I wanted to activate an Android tablet (if a recall. it was JellyBean on a tablet made by RCA). That's all i did with the G-mail.. Never gave the address out to anyone or sent emails with it. But after a month or so of playing around with the Android tablet, downloading apps, side loading, browsing internet, etc., I check the G-mail account and it was full of ads and spam. Of course I didn't start off wondering about this. But wasn't surprise. Probably could have avoided a lot of this if i took the time use the filters available.
No, you didn't spoil my experiment. You simply made me laugh out loud.
Have you not read my own comments at ARS?
Could you not see just how poor that article was?
Yes, the code that ARS tried to look at was based on Android AOSP but HarmonyOS (and even EMUI) are much, much more than that.
No, the author most definitely did not have to send a copy of his passport to Huawei. That was just one of the options open to him. All laid out (in English and publicly available) on the Huawei developer site. There were others but every non-corporate developer is required to identify themselves as a security measure. It is one of the core measures for AppGallery distribution.
Fork you say? Yes but only in one context and by the same logic, iOS is a fork of Darwin, which is a fork of....
In fact, HarmonyOS was officially released in 2019. If only ARS had done that piece then because they wouldn't have found a trace of even AOSP! The kernel of that version could sit in 10kB of memory.
How could that be, if HarmonyOS is just a mere fork of Android? It very much looks like you are making the same shoddy conclusions as ARS, but as you seem to be drawing your own information from that piece, I should not be surprised I suppose.
Of the various HarmonyOS devices I use daily, the only ones that have an Android fork are the tablet and phone. And sideloading the PlayStore or using Gspace is precisely what I didn't want to do!
So what gives?
Why is HarmonyOS able to do things that Android can't? Like the near instantaneous connection of devices? Why is the entire TEE entirely different?
Why is such a core part of the system different? Did ARS give you an answer to that?
Weird because Huawei did an entire tour and tech briefing (in English) with a lot of key information (yes, including networking) and yet there wasn't a whiff of any of that in the article.
It's also surprising that the author of the piece didn't sit through the three-hour HDC keynote (which was broadcast with simultaneous English translation and is available on YouTube) to even get an idea of what the system is, and more importantly, where it is going. Shocking!
And here you are, regurgitating the same information. Have you done your own research?
Microsoft's effort to get Android apps onto Windows is what Huawei will play off but the Windows base doesn't tie in with HarmonyOS on a collaborative level so a new technology was needed and that will allow for the installation of AppGallery (sanctions, of course play a part here too) and HarmonyOS developed apps.
HarmonyOS on smartphones/tablets needs to run Android compatible apps. HarmonyOS on IoT, cars, routers, TVs, audio devices, wearables etc does not.
That is why the system is designated as 'multi kernel' at this point. ARS seems to have skipped that gigantic detail (even though a non-Android based system had been on devices since 2019!). In fact, elements of HarmonyOS have been tucked away in other Huawei systems for a few years now.
So HarmonyOS will handle all aspects of the CE side of things and OpenEuler will handle the cloud/business/industrial side of things. The two will work in harmony (no pun intended) and as you should be realising by now, AOSP will be quite insignificant in the wider scheme of things.
To use your favorite term ... that is irrelevant.
What's relevant is that you are trying to determine how much Google tentacles dig into our lives by using a tablet whose OS is marketed by Huawei as a new OS they created (HarmonyOS) that will compete with Android. An OS that relies on Google's Open Source Android. How can you determine how much Google tentacles dig into our lives by using an OS that would not exist if it weren't for Google? FAIL
If you want to find out how much Google tentacles dig into our lives, you should have started with an iPad. At least iOS was not created by Google to begin with. And there are more than a few here on this forum, who have gone out of their way to not use anything that has to do with Google on their iDevices. ..... No Google Map, No Google search, No Google doc, No One Drive, No G-mail, No YouTube, No Chrome, etc. In fact iOS do not include any GMS. GMS is only for Android. And they manage just fine. And because there is no GMS on iOS devices, it's Google that has to port their apps to run on iOS, if they want access to Apple iDevice users. It's not like Huawei having to use firmware to block the Google Play Store and GMS from being installed on their devices. The same firmware that they use on their devices in China because the government there ban their citizens from having the "choice" to use anything Google. But they sure as Hell have no problem using Google Open Source Android. Google Play Store and GMS would run just fine on HarmonyOS, if Huawei did not go out of their way to block their installation.
Huawei HarmonyOS is nothing new. It has been in use on their devices for their China customers, for years. Only it might not be called "HarmonyOS".
i find it hypocritical that you are always saying that "choice" matters the most for consumers and then turn around and use a Huawei tablet whose OS purpose is to limit consumers "choice'. At least with an Amazon Fire tablet, one still have the "choice" to install the Google Play Store and any of Google Mobile Services. Amazon did not block the installation of the Google Play Store or any GMS from their Amazon Fire tablets. They just didn't come pre-installed as Amazon did not want to pay Google for the license to do so. If Huawei was labeled a "gatekeeper", they would not be allow to do this in the EU. And you would be cursing them for limiting consumers "choice". What happened to ... It's my device, I paid for it and I should be able to install any software I want, from where I want. ?
And yes, you have the consumer right to choose to use a device that purposely blocks you from purchasing apps from the Google Play Store, for what ever reasons. Just as Apple customers have the consumer right to choose to use a device that purposely limits their apps purchases to the Apple App Store.
Hang on.
What was relevant (although completely off topic) is that you picked up on a non-central part of my post and made some false claims.
How about you first admit to your errors before scurrying off to other non-central points?
Had you researched HarmonyOS beyond the ARS article you linked to? Had you read my comments in the forum under the very same article? How extensive is your knowledge of HarmonyOS to make those claims?
That's relevant because your claims weren't minor.
HarmonyOS is a multi-kernel system, the first version of which had no AOSP in it. HarmonyOS on phones and tablets does use some AOSP but along with a lot of Huawei created code. But then AOSP almost certainly includes Huawei code too. That is the nature of the beast.
Even the official Android 13 release will include a Huawei developed file system plus a ton of other contributed code.
Your whole Android open source premise is the big fail here and yes, irrelevant, too. Darwin is open source too.
If you think HarmonyOS is nothing new then you clearly haven't watched the HDC keynote.
HarmonyOS was not shipping on Chinese devices for years under a different name.
Core elements of HarmonyOS that were under development could be found in certain devices and systems (LiteOS/EMUI etc) but it was not HarmonyOS. HarmonyOS as a system launched in 2019 on routers, TVs etc. In a nutshell, low memory devices. In some cases (IoT) devices with severely constrained resources.
2020 saw the release of HarmonyOS 2.0 and support for more memory and the release of more core elements (most notably an entirely new and simplified networking stack). One of the tentpole features of the system is its distributed design and hardware abstraction (including distributed file systems, security and even authentication).
This month will see the release of HarmonyOS 3 which focuses on improving efficiencies system wide. A system that is already incredibly fast.
Your entire GMS section is skewed. Huawei did not go out of its way to block the installation of the Play Store and GMS.
It is not allowed to use them due to sanctions and cannot be seen to facilitate installation.
Google desperately wants to have GMS on Huawei devices. It lobbied the US government. It applied for a licence. No go.
Now it has to contend with what has been described as the fastest growing OS in history punching back in virtually every key GMS space. Including search!
OpenHarmony is seeing widespread adoption and new operating systems are being spawned from it.
Over 100 million HarmonyOS devices (non Huawei) have already shipped in this short period. The rate of device development is increasing.
Google has good reason to look nervously over its shoulder. People, like me have installed HMS on GMS phones!
Yeah! Choice is good.
And no, GMS cannot run perfectly on non-Google certified devices. It is not simply a question of sideloading. You will run into problems.
As for choice, Huawei would love to include GMS as an option on its systems but the bullet has been fired and the genie is out of the lamp. There is no going back. Huawei will continue to develop its systems and compete vigorously with Google on every front. It wasn't Google's fault that a giant revenue stream got cut off and millions of users are being fed alternative services.
It is astounding how far things have gone since 2019. There are still plenty of rough edges (especially in cloud services from a user experience perspective) but devices are well priced, speed in networking and interconnection are lightning fast and updates bring new efficiencies, features almost daily.
The more choice the better and at the end of the day, the UK and the EU are trying to level the playing field with legislation. It is ironic that a different type of legislation (executive orders and national security acts) have opened up a new option for end users.
avon b7 said: The problems arise when you attain gatekeeper status and can actively impede the advance and success of competing platforms. That was the failing of the Amazon and Microsoft efforts (although not the only one).
How did Apple "actively impede" Microsoft or Amazon when it comes to selling mobile phones? They did have apps and you've previously stated your opinion that apps are what makes phone hardware successful.
'Lock in'. 'Stickiness' or whatever word you want to use.
Both Apple and Google are under the microscope for activities that have a direct influence on how users can move between platforms.
In fact, it is just one of the many elements that are being looked at for the EU's DMA.
I would expect the UK to be looking at the exact same elements but perhaps with different names.
Only now, after years of feet being dragged is it getting easier to migrate data from platform to platform.
I actually got a call from someone with a Windows phone IIRC back in the day, who had a simple question. How to move Chrome bookmarks to a different browser. The official way, as per Google help pages at the time, was to use a computer. She didn't have one. I don't remember how I resolved that one but it wasn't a straightforward process. Systems are riddled with pot holes that make migration harder than it should be.
Apps are the lifeblood of all mobile systems and in spite of the existence of web apps.
I'm currently on a migration path to HarmonyOS (for tablets) which does not have a trace of GMS in it so represents a perfect opportunity for me to really see how far Google's tentacles dig into our lives. So I can see, first hand, the difficulties involved in moving off GMS both from a consumer and business perspective.
Believe me, the current situation (the mobile duopoly) is not good for consumers and the more fragmentation from a platform perspective, the better.
It's a lot of fun to see how fast HMS is developing with updates almost daily but not even I would be able to comfortably switch out to HMS in one go.
It's also costing Huawei billions in the process but the system got traction thanks to a pre-existing Chinese market. Microsoft had no such pre-existing market to get traction from.
Ironically, Huawei is in the process of creating new technologies to run Android apps on Windows. That will be another HarmonyOS 'feature' and eventually support for Android apps will be expanded to include HarmonyOS apps on Windows. Microsoft could theoretically take Open Harmony (the open source version of HarmonyOS) and get back into the phone business (Chinese market first) and then ride the coat tails of HarmonyOS to the rest of the world.
The problem is that the mobile industry is now moving into the automotive industry and Microsoft has it own plans there. I can't see Microsoft supporting a system on phones that already has a shipping HarmonyOS Cockpit solution on the market for cars.
Gee, you could have just bought an Amazon Fire tablet to do the same experiment. Both Amazon Fire and Huawei HarmonyOS are forks of Android. So I find it amusing that you are wondering how far Google tentacles dig into our lives by using an OS that was developed, is maintained and kept up to date by Google. Huawei HarmonyOS wouldn't even exist without Google providing Android for free, as Open Source. Android from the ground up was developed by Google with mobile services in mind. Take your tablet, side load the Google Play store and most of the Android apps will run, no problem. The only ones that won't would be he ones that require some other Goole services like G-Mail, One Drive, Google Map, Google Doc, etc.. but all those can also be side loaded. How much you want to bet that when there's a security bug in HarmonyOS, Google will fix it first and then Huawei will apply the fix and take the credit.
Right now, Huawei HarmonyOS is nothing but Android 10 underneath.
>After hours of poking around on HarmonyOS, I couldn't point to a single substantive change compared to Android. Other than a few renamed items, nothing is different. If anyone at Huawei wants to dispute this, I would welcome an example of a single thing in the emulator that is functionally or even aesthetically different from Android. If anyone wants to cry "it's just a beta!," Huawei says this OS will be shipping in commercial phones this year. There does not appear to be time to do a major overhaul from "Android" to "Not Android."
Forking Android and launching your own rebranded operating system is totally fine. But be upfront about that. Say "HarmonyOS is a fork of Android" instead of "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android." Don't call HarmonyOS "all-new" when pretty much the opposite is true.<
And as for Huawei creating new technology to link their OS with Microsoft Windows. That technology already exist. Harmony OS is just Android. Huawei don't have to create anything new to do this. Though they will probably take the credit for it.
I sure hope I didn't spoil your little experiment. Sounded like it was going to be entertaining and fun. Kind of remind me of the time quite a few years back where I opened a G-mail account just because I wanted to activate an Android tablet (if a recall. it was JellyBean on a tablet made by RCA). That's all i did with the G-mail.. Never gave the address out to anyone or sent emails with it. But after a month or so of playing around with the Android tablet, downloading apps, side loading, browsing internet, etc., I check the G-mail account and it was full of ads and spam. Of course I didn't start off wondering about this. But wasn't surprise. Probably could have avoided a lot of this if i took the time use the filters available.
No, you didn't spoil my experiment. You simply made me laugh out loud.
Have you not read my own comments at ARS?
Could you not see just how poor that article was?
Yes, the code that ARS tried to look at was based on Android AOSP but HarmonyOS (and even EMUI) are much, much more than that.
No, the author most definitely did not have to send a copy of his passport to Huawei. That was just one of the options open to him. All laid out (in English and publicly available) on the Huawei developer site. There were others but every non-corporate developer is required to identify themselves as a security measure. It is one of the core measures for AppGallery distribution.
Fork you say? Yes but only in one context and by the same logic, iOS is a fork of Darwin, which is a fork of....
In fact, HarmonyOS was officially released in 2019. If only ARS had done that piece then because they wouldn't have found a trace of even AOSP! The kernel of that version could sit in 10kB of memory.
How could that be, if HarmonyOS is just a mere fork of Android? It very much looks like you are making the same shoddy conclusions as ARS, but as you seem to be drawing your own information from that piece, I should not be surprised I suppose.
Of the various HarmonyOS devices I use daily, the only ones that have an Android fork are the tablet and phone. And sideloading the PlayStore or using Gspace is precisely what I didn't want to do!
So what gives?
Why is HarmonyOS able to do things that Android can't? Like the near instantaneous connection of devices? Why is the entire TEE entirely different?
Why is such a core part of the system different? Did ARS give you an answer to that?
Weird because Huawei did an entire tour and tech briefing (in English) with a lot of key information (yes, including networking) and yet there wasn't a whiff of any of that in the article.
It's also surprising that the author of the piece didn't sit through the three-hour HDC keynote (which was broadcast with simultaneous English translation and is available on YouTube) to even get an idea of what the system is, and more importantly, where it is going. Shocking!
And here you are, regurgitating the same information. Have you done your own research?
Microsoft's effort to get Android apps onto Windows is what Huawei will play off but the Windows base doesn't tie in with HarmonyOS on a collaborative level so a new technology was needed and that will allow for the installation of AppGallery (sanctions, of course play a part here too) and HarmonyOS developed apps.
HarmonyOS on smartphones/tablets needs to run Android compatible apps. HarmonyOS on IoT, cars, routers, TVs, audio devices, wearables etc does not.
That is why the system is designated as 'multi kernel' at this point. ARS seems to have skipped that gigantic detail (even though a non-Android based system had been on devices since 2019!). In fact, elements of HarmonyOS have been tucked away in other Huawei systems for a few years now.
So HarmonyOS will handle all aspects of the CE side of things and OpenEuler will handle the cloud/business/industrial side of things. The two will work in harmony (no pun intended) and as you should be realising by now, AOSP will be quite insignificant in the wider scheme of things.
To use your favorite term ... that is irrelevant.
What's relevant is that you are trying to determine how much Google tentacles dig into our lives by using a tablet whose OS is marketed by Huawei as a new OS they created (HarmonyOS) that will compete with Android. An OS that relies on Google's Open Source Android. How can you determine how much Google tentacles dig into our lives by using an OS that would not exist if it weren't for Google? FAIL
If you want to find out how much Google tentacles dig into our lives, you should have started with an iPad. At least iOS was not created by Google to begin with. And there are more than a few here on this forum, who have gone out of their way to not use anything that has to do with Google on their iDevices. ..... No Google Map, No Google search, No Google doc, No One Drive, No G-mail, No YouTube, No Chrome, etc. In fact iOS do not include any GMS. GMS is only for Android. And they manage just fine. And because there is no GMS on iOS devices, it's Google that has to port their apps to run on iOS, if they want access to Apple iDevice users. It's not like Huawei having to use firmware to block the Google Play Store and GMS from being installed on their devices. The same firmware that they use on their devices in China because the government there ban their citizens from having the "choice" to use anything Google. But they sure as Hell have no problem using Google Open Source Android. Google Play Store and GMS would run just fine on HarmonyOS, if Huawei did not go out of their way to block their installation.
Huawei HarmonyOS is nothing new. It has been in use on their devices for their China customers, for years. Only it might not be called "HarmonyOS".
i find it hypocritical that you are always saying that "choice" matters the most for consumers and then turn around and use a Huawei tablet whose OS purpose is to limit consumers "choice'. At least with an Amazon Fire tablet, one still have the "choice" to install the Google Play Store and any of Google Mobile Services. Amazon did not block the installation of the Google Play Store or any GMS from their Amazon Fire tablets. They just didn't come pre-installed as Amazon did not want to pay Google for the license to do so. If Huawei was labeled a "gatekeeper", they would not be allow to do this in the EU. And you would be cursing them for limiting consumers "choice". What happened to ... It's my device, I paid for it and I should be able to install any software I want, from where I want. ?
And yes, you have the consumer right to choose to use a device that purposely blocks you from purchasing apps from the Google Play Store, for what ever reasons. Just as Apple customers have the consumer right to choose to use a device that purposely limits their apps purchases to the Apple App Store.
Hang on.
What was relevant (although completely off topic) is that you picked up on a non-central part of my post and made some false claims.
How about you first admit to your errors before scurrying off to other non-central points?
Had you researched HarmonyOS beyond the ARS article you linked to? Had you read my comments in the forum under the very same article? How extensive is your knowledge of HarmonyOS to make those claims?
That's relevant because your claims weren't minor.
HarmonyOS is a multi-kernel system, the first version of which had no AOSP in it. HarmonyOS on phones and tablets does use some AOSP but along with a lot of Huawei created code. But then AOSP almost certainly includes Huawei code too. That is the nature of the beast.
Even the official Android 13 release will include a Huawei developed file system plus a ton of other contributed code.
Your whole Android open source premise is the big fail here and yes, irrelevant, too. Darwin is open source too.
If you think HarmonyOS is nothing new then you clearly haven't watched the HDC keynote.
HarmonyOS was not shipping on Chinese devices for years under a different name.
Core elements of HarmonyOS that were under development could be found in certain devices and systems (LiteOS/EMUI etc) but it was not HarmonyOS. HarmonyOS as a system launched in 2019 on routers, TVs etc. In a nutshell, low memory devices. In some cases (IoT) devices with severely constrained resources.
2020 saw the release of HarmonyOS 2.0 and support for more memory and the release of more core elements (most notably an entirely new and simplified networking stack). One of the tentpole features of the system is its distributed design and hardware abstraction (including distributed file systems, security and even authentication).
This month will see the release of HarmonyOS 3 which focuses on improving efficiencies system wide. A system that is already incredibly fast.
Your entire GMS section is skewed. Huawei did not go out of its way to block the installation of the Play Store and GMS.
It is not allowed to use them due to sanctions and cannot be seen to facilitate installation.
Google desperately wants to have GMS on Huawei devices. It lobbied the US government. It applied for a licence. No go.
Now it has to contend with what has been described as the fastest growing OS in history punching back in virtually every key GMS space. Including search!
OpenHarmony is seeing widespread adoption and new operating systems are being spawned from it.
Over 100 million HarmonyOS devices (non Huawei) have already shipped in this short period. The rate of device development is increasing.
Google has good reason to look nervously over its shoulder. People, like me have installed HMS on GMS phones!
Yeah! Choice is good.
And no, GMS cannot run perfectly on non-Google certified devices. It is not simply a question of sideloading. You will run into problems.
As for choice, Huawei would love to include GMS as an option on its systems but the bullet has been fired and the genie is out of the lamp. There is no going back. Huawei will continue to develop its systems and compete vigorously with Google on every front. It wasn't Google's fault that a giant revenue stream got cut off and millions of users are being fed alternative services.
It is astounding how far things have gone since 2019. There are still plenty of rough edges (especially in cloud services from a user experience perspective) but devices are well priced, speed in networking and interconnection are lightning fast and updates bring new efficiencies, features almost daily.
The more choice the better and at the end of the day, the UK and the EU are trying to level the playing field with legislation. It is ironic that a different type of legislation (executive orders and national security acts) have opened up a new option for end users.
From Huawei itself
To answer the question though for nitpickers, both pad OS and smartphone OS seem to be based on Android. Huawei itself has confirmed this:
To make sure our existing users can still enjoy the experiences that they are familiar with in our phones and tablets, Huawei uses the open-source code from AOSP[Android Open Source Project) in HarmonyOS on the condition of complying with open source license rules and fulfilling related responsibilities and obligations.
So i stand by my assertion that Huawei HarmonyOS would not be the best OS to use to determine .... as you put it .... how much of Google tentacles dig into our lives. HarmonyOS is Android. Android is Google, whether with licensed GMS or a fork of it using Open Source Android.
There's nothing wrong with the HarmonyOS. The choice to use it should be up to the consumers, no matter how it locks out GMS. What's wrong is your choice to use it as a means to find out how much Google tentacles digs into out lives. Google still has its tentacles all over HarmonyOS, even without a trace of GMS.
If you really serious about trying to live a digital life without Google, you might want to try try one of these alternatives to Android ....
They do include HarmonyOS at the end of the list and also warn that HarmonyOS is an Android fork, so technically still Android. But might be a decent alternative to those that just want to be free of GMS Android and not necessary Android or Google, as HarmonyOS do add a lot of features that make it seem more like GMS Android and will run most Android apps (that don't require GMS.). But i would consider all Android apps as one of Google's tentacles digging into out lives, as without Google, they would not exist.
avon b7 said: The problems arise when you attain gatekeeper status and can actively impede the advance and success of competing platforms. That was the failing of the Amazon and Microsoft efforts (although not the only one).
How did Apple "actively impede" Microsoft or Amazon when it comes to selling mobile phones? They did have apps and you've previously stated your opinion that apps are what makes phone hardware successful.
'Lock in'. 'Stickiness' or whatever word you want to use.
Both Apple and Google are under the microscope for activities that have a direct influence on how users can move between platforms.
In fact, it is just one of the many elements that are being looked at for the EU's DMA.
I would expect the UK to be looking at the exact same elements but perhaps with different names.
Only now, after years of feet being dragged is it getting easier to migrate data from platform to platform.
I actually got a call from someone with a Windows phone IIRC back in the day, who had a simple question. How to move Chrome bookmarks to a different browser. The official way, as per Google help pages at the time, was to use a computer. She didn't have one. I don't remember how I resolved that one but it wasn't a straightforward process. Systems are riddled with pot holes that make migration harder than it should be.
Apps are the lifeblood of all mobile systems and in spite of the existence of web apps.
I'm currently on a migration path to HarmonyOS (for tablets) which does not have a trace of GMS in it so represents a perfect opportunity for me to really see how far Google's tentacles dig into our lives. So I can see, first hand, the difficulties involved in moving off GMS both from a consumer and business perspective.
Believe me, the current situation (the mobile duopoly) is not good for consumers and the more fragmentation from a platform perspective, the better.
It's a lot of fun to see how fast HMS is developing with updates almost daily but not even I would be able to comfortably switch out to HMS in one go.
It's also costing Huawei billions in the process but the system got traction thanks to a pre-existing Chinese market. Microsoft had no such pre-existing market to get traction from.
Ironically, Huawei is in the process of creating new technologies to run Android apps on Windows. That will be another HarmonyOS 'feature' and eventually support for Android apps will be expanded to include HarmonyOS apps on Windows. Microsoft could theoretically take Open Harmony (the open source version of HarmonyOS) and get back into the phone business (Chinese market first) and then ride the coat tails of HarmonyOS to the rest of the world.
The problem is that the mobile industry is now moving into the automotive industry and Microsoft has it own plans there. I can't see Microsoft supporting a system on phones that already has a shipping HarmonyOS Cockpit solution on the market for cars.
Gee, you could have just bought an Amazon Fire tablet to do the same experiment. Both Amazon Fire and Huawei HarmonyOS are forks of Android. So I find it amusing that you are wondering how far Google tentacles dig into our lives by using an OS that was developed, is maintained and kept up to date by Google. Huawei HarmonyOS wouldn't even exist without Google providing Android for free, as Open Source. Android from the ground up was developed by Google with mobile services in mind. Take your tablet, side load the Google Play store and most of the Android apps will run, no problem. The only ones that won't would be he ones that require some other Goole services like G-Mail, One Drive, Google Map, Google Doc, etc.. but all those can also be side loaded. How much you want to bet that when there's a security bug in HarmonyOS, Google will fix it first and then Huawei will apply the fix and take the credit.
Right now, Huawei HarmonyOS is nothing but Android 10 underneath.
>After hours of poking around on HarmonyOS, I couldn't point to a single substantive change compared to Android. Other than a few renamed items, nothing is different. If anyone at Huawei wants to dispute this, I would welcome an example of a single thing in the emulator that is functionally or even aesthetically different from Android. If anyone wants to cry "it's just a beta!," Huawei says this OS will be shipping in commercial phones this year. There does not appear to be time to do a major overhaul from "Android" to "Not Android."
Forking Android and launching your own rebranded operating system is totally fine. But be upfront about that. Say "HarmonyOS is a fork of Android" instead of "HarmonyOS is not a copy of Android." Don't call HarmonyOS "all-new" when pretty much the opposite is true.<
And as for Huawei creating new technology to link their OS with Microsoft Windows. That technology already exist. Harmony OS is just Android. Huawei don't have to create anything new to do this. Though they will probably take the credit for it.
I sure hope I didn't spoil your little experiment. Sounded like it was going to be entertaining and fun. Kind of remind me of the time quite a few years back where I opened a G-mail account just because I wanted to activate an Android tablet (if a recall. it was JellyBean on a tablet made by RCA). That's all i did with the G-mail.. Never gave the address out to anyone or sent emails with it. But after a month or so of playing around with the Android tablet, downloading apps, side loading, browsing internet, etc., I check the G-mail account and it was full of ads and spam. Of course I didn't start off wondering about this. But wasn't surprise. Probably could have avoided a lot of this if i took the time use the filters available.
No, you didn't spoil my experiment. You simply made me laugh out loud.
Have you not read my own comments at ARS?
Could you not see just how poor that article was?
Yes, the code that ARS tried to look at was based on Android AOSP but HarmonyOS (and even EMUI) are much, much more than that.
No, the author most definitely did not have to send a copy of his passport to Huawei. That was just one of the options open to him. All laid out (in English and publicly available) on the Huawei developer site. There were others but every non-corporate developer is required to identify themselves as a security measure. It is one of the core measures for AppGallery distribution.
Fork you say? Yes but only in one context and by the same logic, iOS is a fork of Darwin, which is a fork of....
In fact, HarmonyOS was officially released in 2019. If only ARS had done that piece then because they wouldn't have found a trace of even AOSP! The kernel of that version could sit in 10kB of memory.
How could that be, if HarmonyOS is just a mere fork of Android? It very much looks like you are making the same shoddy conclusions as ARS, but as you seem to be drawing your own information from that piece, I should not be surprised I suppose.
Of the various HarmonyOS devices I use daily, the only ones that have an Android fork are the tablet and phone. And sideloading the PlayStore or using Gspace is precisely what I didn't want to do!
So what gives?
Why is HarmonyOS able to do things that Android can't? Like the near instantaneous connection of devices? Why is the entire TEE entirely different?
Why is such a core part of the system different? Did ARS give you an answer to that?
Weird because Huawei did an entire tour and tech briefing (in English) with a lot of key information (yes, including networking) and yet there wasn't a whiff of any of that in the article.
It's also surprising that the author of the piece didn't sit through the three-hour HDC keynote (which was broadcast with simultaneous English translation and is available on YouTube) to even get an idea of what the system is, and more importantly, where it is going. Shocking!
And here you are, regurgitating the same information. Have you done your own research?
Microsoft's effort to get Android apps onto Windows is what Huawei will play off but the Windows base doesn't tie in with HarmonyOS on a collaborative level so a new technology was needed and that will allow for the installation of AppGallery (sanctions, of course play a part here too) and HarmonyOS developed apps.
HarmonyOS on smartphones/tablets needs to run Android compatible apps. HarmonyOS on IoT, cars, routers, TVs, audio devices, wearables etc does not.
That is why the system is designated as 'multi kernel' at this point. ARS seems to have skipped that gigantic detail (even though a non-Android based system had been on devices since 2019!). In fact, elements of HarmonyOS have been tucked away in other Huawei systems for a few years now.
So HarmonyOS will handle all aspects of the CE side of things and OpenEuler will handle the cloud/business/industrial side of things. The two will work in harmony (no pun intended) and as you should be realising by now, AOSP will be quite insignificant in the wider scheme of things.
To use your favorite term ... that is irrelevant.
What's relevant is that you are trying to determine how much Google tentacles dig into our lives by using a tablet whose OS is marketed by Huawei as a new OS they created (HarmonyOS) that will compete with Android. An OS that relies on Google's Open Source Android. How can you determine how much Google tentacles dig into our lives by using an OS that would not exist if it weren't for Google? FAIL
If you want to find out how much Google tentacles dig into our lives, you should have started with an iPad. At least iOS was not created by Google to begin with. And there are more than a few here on this forum, who have gone out of their way to not use anything that has to do with Google on their iDevices. ..... No Google Map, No Google search, No Google doc, No One Drive, No G-mail, No YouTube, No Chrome, etc. In fact iOS do not include any GMS. GMS is only for Android. And they manage just fine. And because there is no GMS on iOS devices, it's Google that has to port their apps to run on iOS, if they want access to Apple iDevice users. It's not like Huawei having to use firmware to block the Google Play Store and GMS from being installed on their devices. The same firmware that they use on their devices in China because the government there ban their citizens from having the "choice" to use anything Google. But they sure as Hell have no problem using Google Open Source Android. Google Play Store and GMS would run just fine on HarmonyOS, if Huawei did not go out of their way to block their installation.
Huawei HarmonyOS is nothing new. It has been in use on their devices for their China customers, for years. Only it might not be called "HarmonyOS".
i find it hypocritical that you are always saying that "choice" matters the most for consumers and then turn around and use a Huawei tablet whose OS purpose is to limit consumers "choice'. At least with an Amazon Fire tablet, one still have the "choice" to install the Google Play Store and any of Google Mobile Services. Amazon did not block the installation of the Google Play Store or any GMS from their Amazon Fire tablets. They just didn't come pre-installed as Amazon did not want to pay Google for the license to do so. If Huawei was labeled a "gatekeeper", they would not be allow to do this in the EU. And you would be cursing them for limiting consumers "choice". What happened to ... It's my device, I paid for it and I should be able to install any software I want, from where I want. ?
And yes, you have the consumer right to choose to use a device that purposely blocks you from purchasing apps from the Google Play Store, for what ever reasons. Just as Apple customers have the consumer right to choose to use a device that purposely limits their apps purchases to the Apple App Store.
Hang on.
What was relevant (although completely off topic) is that you picked up on a non-central part of my post and made some false claims.
How about you first admit to your errors before scurrying off to other non-central points?
Had you researched HarmonyOS beyond the ARS article you linked to? Had you read my comments in the forum under the very same article? How extensive is your knowledge of HarmonyOS to make those claims?
That's relevant because your claims weren't minor.
HarmonyOS is a multi-kernel system, the first version of which had no AOSP in it. HarmonyOS on phones and tablets does use some AOSP but along with a lot of Huawei created code. But then AOSP almost certainly includes Huawei code too. That is the nature of the beast.
Even the official Android 13 release will include a Huawei developed file system plus a ton of other contributed code.
Your whole Android open source premise is the big fail here and yes, irrelevant, too. Darwin is open source too.
If you think HarmonyOS is nothing new then you clearly haven't watched the HDC keynote.
HarmonyOS was not shipping on Chinese devices for years under a different name.
Core elements of HarmonyOS that were under development could be found in certain devices and systems (LiteOS/EMUI etc) but it was not HarmonyOS. HarmonyOS as a system launched in 2019 on routers, TVs etc. In a nutshell, low memory devices. In some cases (IoT) devices with severely constrained resources.
2020 saw the release of HarmonyOS 2.0 and support for more memory and the release of more core elements (most notably an entirely new and simplified networking stack). One of the tentpole features of the system is its distributed design and hardware abstraction (including distributed file systems, security and even authentication).
This month will see the release of HarmonyOS 3 which focuses on improving efficiencies system wide. A system that is already incredibly fast.
Your entire GMS section is skewed. Huawei did not go out of its way to block the installation of the Play Store and GMS.
It is not allowed to use them due to sanctions and cannot be seen to facilitate installation.
Google desperately wants to have GMS on Huawei devices. It lobbied the US government. It applied for a licence. No go.
Now it has to contend with what has been described as the fastest growing OS in history punching back in virtually every key GMS space. Including search!
OpenHarmony is seeing widespread adoption and new operating systems are being spawned from it.
Over 100 million HarmonyOS devices (non Huawei) have already shipped in this short period. The rate of device development is increasing.
Google has good reason to look nervously over its shoulder. People, like me have installed HMS on GMS phones!
Yeah! Choice is good.
And no, GMS cannot run perfectly on non-Google certified devices. It is not simply a question of sideloading. You will run into problems.
As for choice, Huawei would love to include GMS as an option on its systems but the bullet has been fired and the genie is out of the lamp. There is no going back. Huawei will continue to develop its systems and compete vigorously with Google on every front. It wasn't Google's fault that a giant revenue stream got cut off and millions of users are being fed alternative services.
It is astounding how far things have gone since 2019. There are still plenty of rough edges (especially in cloud services from a user experience perspective) but devices are well priced, speed in networking and interconnection are lightning fast and updates bring new efficiencies, features almost daily.
The more choice the better and at the end of the day, the UK and the EU are trying to level the playing field with legislation. It is ironic that a different type of legislation (executive orders and national security acts) have opened up a new option for end users.
From Huawei itself
To answer the question though for nitpickers, both pad OS and smartphone OS seem to be based on Android. Huawei itself has confirmed this:
To make sure our existing users can still enjoy the experiences that they are familiar with in our phones and tablets, Huawei uses the open-source code from AOSP[Android Open Source Project) in HarmonyOS on the condition of complying with open source license rules and fulfilling related responsibilities and obligations.
So i stand by my assertion that Huawei HarmonyOS would not be the best OS to use to determine .... as you put it .... how much of Google tentacles dig into our lives. HarmonyOS is Android. Android is Google, whether with licensed GMS or a fork of it using Open Source Android.
There's nothing wrong with the HarmonyOS. The choice to use it should be up to the consumers, no matter how it locks out GMS. What's wrong is your choice to use it as a means to find out how much Google tentacles digs into out lives. Google still has its tentacles all over HarmonyOS, even without a trace of GMS.
If you really serious about trying to live a digital life without Google, you might want to try try one of these alternatives to Android ....
They do include HarmonyOS at the end of the list and also warn that HarmonyOS is an Android fork, so technically still Android. But might be a decent alternative to those that just want to be free of GMS Android and not necessary Android or Google, as HarmonyOS do add a lot of features that make it seem more like GMS Android and will run most Android apps (that don't require GMS.). But i would consider all Android apps as one of Google's tentacles digging into out lives, as without Google, they would not exist.
From the article you linked to:
"So Harmony OS is more than just a fork of Android although certain versions of it are based on Android. Why some bloggers seem obsessed with the Android link is beyond me."
That is exactly what I told you. HarmonyOS is a multi kernel system with a kernel abstraction layer.
That was known long, long before the ARS article.
It is not a collection of operating systems under one name. It simply uses kernels which are appropriate for the devices they run on.
There are still over 16,000 APIs and one universal development environment. The whole point is to eliminate the siloes between device environments and distribute everything across the hardware resources within the system while at the same time making it seamless to the user who has zero need to know what kernel a device is using.
Reducing it all to 'HarmonyOS is only a fork of Android' is a demonstration of ignorance.
Or as Phil Schiller might say:
"Android fork, my ass"
It is a massively complex endeavor and I highly recommend you read the HarmonyOS Security White Paper.
As I mentioned in the comments at ARS, one theoretical scenario actually provided by Huawei during the keynote presentation was of a router coming under external attack and being able to pool processing resources from other HarmonyOS devices (in the example, a nearby TV) to better manage the situation. That, by today's standards is pretty forward thinking and the development process is well underway even though we are talking about a system that is still in its infancy.
You implying that I am using HarmonyOS as a way of seeing how far Google digs into us on other systems.
This is what I said originally:
"I'm currently on a migration path to HarmonyOS (for tablets) which does not have a trace of GMS in it so represents a perfect opportunity for me to really see how far Google's tentacles dig into our lives. So I can see, first hand, the difficulties involved in moving off GMS both from a consumer and business perspective."
My reasons for migrating part of my system usage to HarmonyOS are many. The GMS angle is simply a by product of the process. Not an end goal.
I still have iOS, Android, EMUI and macOS at home. I don't have Windows but that might change in the future.
Comments
What's relevant is that you are trying to determine how much Google tentacles dig into our lives by using a tablet whose OS is marketed by Huawei as a new OS they created (HarmonyOS) that will compete with Android. An OS that relies on Google's Open Source Android. How can you determine how much Google tentacles dig into our lives by using an OS that would not exist if it weren't for Google? FAIL
If you want to find out how much Google tentacles dig into our lives, you should have started with an iPad. At least iOS was not created by Google to begin with. And there are more than a few here on this forum, who have gone out of their way to not use anything that has to do with Google on their iDevices. ..... No Google Map, No Google search, No Google doc, No One Drive, No G-mail, No YouTube, No Chrome, etc. In fact iOS do not include any GMS. GMS is only for Android. And they manage just fine. And because there is no GMS on iOS devices, it's Google that has to port their apps to run on iOS, if they want access to Apple iDevice users. It's not like Huawei having to use firmware to block the Google Play Store and GMS from being installed on their devices. The same firmware that they use on their devices in China because the government there ban their citizens from having the "choice" to use anything Google. But they sure as Hell have no problem using Google Open Source Android. Google Play Store and GMS would run just fine on HarmonyOS, if Huawei did not go out of their way to block their installation.
Huawei HarmonyOS is nothing new. It has been in use on their devices for their China customers, for years. Only it might not be called "HarmonyOS".
i find it hypocritical that you are always saying that "choice" matters the most for consumers and then turn around and use a Huawei tablet whose OS purpose is to limit consumers "choice'. At least with an Amazon Fire tablet, one still have the "choice" to install the Google Play Store and any of Google Mobile Services. Amazon did not block the installation of the Google Play Store or any GMS from their Amazon Fire tablets. They just didn't come pre-installed as Amazon did not want to pay Google for the license to do so. If Huawei was labeled a "gatekeeper", they would not be allow to do this in the EU. And you would be cursing them for limiting consumers "choice". What happened to ... It's my device, I paid for it and I should be able to install any software I want, from where I want. ?
And yes, you have the consumer right to choose to use a device that purposely blocks you from purchasing apps from the Google Play Store, for what ever reasons. Just as Apple customers have the consumer right to choose to use a device that purposely limits their apps purchases to the Apple App Store.
What was relevant (although completely off topic) is that you picked up on a non-central part of my post and made some false claims.
How about you first admit to your errors before scurrying off to other non-central points?
Had you researched HarmonyOS beyond the ARS article you linked to? Had you read my comments in the forum under the very same article? How extensive is your knowledge of HarmonyOS to make those claims?
That's relevant because your claims weren't minor.
HarmonyOS is a multi-kernel system, the first version of which had no AOSP in it. HarmonyOS on phones and tablets does use some AOSP but along with a lot of Huawei created code. But then AOSP almost certainly includes Huawei code too. That is the nature of the beast.
Even the official Android 13 release will include a Huawei developed file system plus a ton of other contributed code.
Your whole Android open source premise is the big fail here and yes, irrelevant, too. Darwin is open source too.
If you think HarmonyOS is nothing new then you clearly haven't watched the HDC keynote.
HarmonyOS was not shipping on Chinese devices for years under a different name.
Core elements of HarmonyOS that were under development could be found in certain devices and systems (LiteOS/EMUI etc) but it was not HarmonyOS. HarmonyOS as a system launched in 2019 on routers, TVs etc. In a nutshell, low memory devices. In some cases (IoT) devices with severely constrained resources.
2020 saw the release of HarmonyOS 2.0 and support for more memory and the release of more core elements (most notably an entirely new and simplified networking stack). One of the tentpole features of the system is its distributed design and hardware abstraction (including distributed file systems, security and even authentication).
This month will see the release of HarmonyOS 3 which focuses on improving efficiencies system wide. A system that is already incredibly fast.
Your entire GMS section is skewed. Huawei did not go out of its way to block the installation of the Play Store and GMS.
It is not allowed to use them due to sanctions and cannot be seen to facilitate installation.
Google desperately wants to have GMS on Huawei devices. It lobbied the US government. It applied for a licence. No go.
Now it has to contend with what has been described as the fastest growing OS in history punching back in virtually every key GMS space. Including search!
OpenHarmony is seeing widespread adoption and new operating systems are being spawned from it.
https://oniroproject.org/
Over 100 million HarmonyOS devices (non Huawei) have already shipped in this short period. The rate of device development is increasing.
Google has good reason to look nervously over its shoulder. People, like me have installed HMS on GMS phones!
Yeah! Choice is good.
And no, GMS cannot run perfectly on non-Google certified devices. It is not simply a question of sideloading. You will run into problems.
As for choice, Huawei would love to include GMS as an option on its systems but the bullet has been fired and the genie is out of the lamp. There is no going back. Huawei will continue to develop its systems and compete vigorously with Google on every front. It wasn't Google's fault that a giant revenue stream got cut off and millions of users are being fed alternative services.
It is astounding how far things have gone since 2019. There are still plenty of rough edges (especially in cloud services from a user experience perspective) but devices are well priced, speed in networking and interconnection are lightning fast and updates bring new efficiencies, features almost daily.
The more choice the better and at the end of the day, the UK and the EU are trying to level the playing field with legislation. It is ironic that a different type of legislation (executive orders and national security acts) have opened up a new option for end users.
To answer the question though for nitpickers, both pad OS and smartphone OS seem to be based on Android. Huawei itself has confirmed this:
https://www.techzim.co.zw/2021/06/huaweis-harmony-os-is-not-a-fork-of-android-but-it-is-also-a-fork-of-android/
So i stand by my assertion that Huawei HarmonyOS would not be the best OS to use to determine .... as you put it .... how much of Google tentacles dig into our lives. HarmonyOS is Android. Android is Google, whether with licensed GMS or a fork of it using Open Source Android.
There's nothing wrong with the HarmonyOS. The choice to use it should be up to the consumers, no matter how it locks out GMS. What's wrong is your choice to use it as a means to find out how much Google tentacles digs into out lives. Google still has its tentacles all over HarmonyOS, even without a trace of GMS.
If you really serious about trying to live a digital life without Google, you might want to try try one of these alternatives to Android ....
https://beebom.com/android-alternative/
They do include HarmonyOS at the end of the list and also warn that HarmonyOS is an Android fork, so technically still Android. But might be a decent alternative to those that just want to be free of GMS Android and not necessary Android or Google, as HarmonyOS do add a lot of features that make it seem more like GMS Android and will run most Android apps (that don't require GMS.). But i would consider all Android apps as one of Google's tentacles digging into out lives, as without Google, they would not exist.
"So Harmony OS is more than just a fork of Android although certain versions of it are based on Android. Why some bloggers seem obsessed with the Android link is beyond me."
That is exactly what I told you. HarmonyOS is a multi kernel system with a kernel abstraction layer.
That was known long, long before the ARS article.
It is not a collection of operating systems under one name. It simply uses kernels which are appropriate for the devices they run on.
There are still over 16,000 APIs and one universal development environment. The whole point is to eliminate the siloes between device environments and distribute everything across the hardware resources within the system while at the same time making it seamless to the user who has zero need to know what kernel a device is using.
Reducing it all to 'HarmonyOS is only a fork of Android' is a demonstration of ignorance.
Or as Phil Schiller might say:
"Android fork, my ass"
It is a massively complex endeavor and I highly recommend you read the HarmonyOS Security White Paper.
As I mentioned in the comments at ARS, one theoretical scenario actually provided by Huawei during the keynote presentation was of a router coming under external attack and being able to pool processing resources from other HarmonyOS devices (in the example, a nearby TV) to better manage the situation. That, by today's standards is pretty forward thinking and the development process is well underway even though we are talking about a system that is still in its infancy.
You implying that I am using HarmonyOS as a way of seeing how far Google digs into us on other systems.
This is what I said originally:
"I'm currently on a migration path to HarmonyOS (for tablets) which does not have a trace of GMS in it so represents a perfect opportunity for me to really see how far Google's tentacles dig into our lives. So I can see, first hand, the difficulties involved in moving off GMS both from a consumer and business perspective."
My reasons for migrating part of my system usage to HarmonyOS are many. The GMS angle is simply a by product of the process. Not an end goal.
I still have iOS, Android, EMUI and macOS at home. I don't have Windows but that might change in the future.