US DOJ prepping antitrust case against Apple

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 36
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 964member
    Money talks and government listens. No money, no hear. 

    Apple has been successful at producing quality goods and expects to be paid for doing it. That does not make them a monopoly. 

    Sherlocking is a strange idea. It's just some competitor making a product which competes with yours and perhaps doing a better job. Just because it's Apple doesn't make it any different from any other company though they have substantially more resources to throw at such products than most so such companies are at a real disadvantage. 

    Tile had a great idea -- but you can't protect the idea using IP laws. But, a company like Tile would be underwater and bankrupt if they'd have much of the success of Apple with AirTags. Tile never had to worry about their customers illegally tracking others -- too small a customer based to attract the miscreants doing that. The success of AirTags brought the Feds into the game because how they were sometimes being used. Being big and successful can have significant downsides in this way. 
    lolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 22 of 36
    Tile has no case; they need to innovate their own products and compete.
    The DOJ will likely not bring the antitrust because they would lose and waste tax payer money.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 36
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,506member
    davidw said:
    seanj said:
    Arguably Apple using its market position with iOS to leverage AirTags via the bundling of the  FindMy app. It’s the same as when Microsoft bundled Internet Explorer with Windows. I imagine Apple’s lawyers would have flagged this to management long before it AirTags launched.

    The difference is AirTags is a useful product that is superior to the competition and which people prefer. Whereas IE was a complete pile of shit that Windows tried to force you to use by being the linked default browser - only later could this be changed.
    No, it is not the same. Windows OS is unquestionably a true monopoly on desktop (including laptops) computers. Windows at the time was the OS on over 95% of the World desktop computers and still on over 70% of them today. The claim was that Microsoft was leveraging their monopoly (Windows) in one market (desktop OS), to gain marketshare in another (browser).  That can be easily construed as a violation of anti-trust laws.  

    Here, iOS is only the OS on about 23% of the Worlds mobile devices. Not even the EU is claiming that Apple has a monopoly with iOS. The EU had to pass new anti-trust laws that can be applied where a tech company only needs to have a "dominate" marketshare, even if that "dominate" marketshare is less than 25% and they have a market cap over some arbitrary amount set to exclude any non US corporations.

    The difference is that iOS is not a monopoly, as defined under current anti-trust laws, using a "relevant" market that is not artificially narrowed down to one brand.
    Wouldn't US antitrust action be with regard to the US market and not "worldwide".
    Legit question as I'm not sure, but if the US would be the relevant restriction then iOS is absolutely close to being the dominant mobile platform if it is not already so.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 24 of 36
    seanj said:
    Arguably Apple using its market position with iOS to leverage AirTags via the bundling of the  FindMy app. It’s the same as when Microsoft bundled Internet Explorer with Windows. I imagine Apple’s lawyers would have flagged this to management long before it AirTags launched.

    The difference is AirTags is a useful product that is superior to the competition and which people prefer. Whereas IE was a complete pile of shit that Windows tried to force you to use by being the linked default browser - only later could this be changed.
    Is it really superior? The one and only time I had to actually find a small item lost with one attached outside it gave me an error that it couldn’t connect when I tried to get it to play a sound while at the very same time it was telling me that the AirTag was right there next to me. That seemed pretty shoddily designed to me. I haven’t used other brands yet so I don’t know if they are as unreliable.
  • Reply 25 of 36
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,474member
    They need to allow sided loading so the government can load their tracking software and spy on you…simple as that.  If they force it, I hope Apple makes you choose…security or openness, I will take the security.
    lolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 36
    mknelson said:
    rob53 said:
    Of course this is political but why are we spending taxpayer money on this when there are so many other issues concerning illegal corporate and personal activities that continue to go unchecked. IRS was decimated and rich people got away with murder yet nothing is done. I'm tired of all the attacks on Apple for really insignificant things.
    Nothing? The IRS budget is being increased* in that Inflation Reduction Act (I know that and I'm in Canada).
    *and that increase is causing shrill screams and made up stories about 80+K auditors from Fox and others on the right.

    gilly33 said:
    Oh wow Apple shouldn’t favor their own services. I guess Walmart, Target et al, shouldn’t compete with and favor their own brands vs. other brands. Oh and sell them cheaper. That’s unfair business practices. What a shocker. 
    This is a little different. Apple was fine with Tile, even sold Tile, but now that Airtags are out Apple seems to be making life harder for Tile and other tracker companies to work on iOS.
    Your post makes no sense. Are you out of your mind? The IRS itself said they were hiring 87K employees, and in a job posting actually asked the candidates to be willing to use 'deadly force'. Perhaps some Canadians are used to being treated like cattle by their government, but we Americans have not reached that level yet.

    As for Tile, Apple is not preventing Tile from working with iPhones. What do you want them to do, let Tile use their Find My network for free?
    Madbumwatto_cobrabshank
  • Reply 27 of 36
    MadbumMadbum Posts: 405member
    Tile has no case; they need to innovate their own products and compete.
    The DOJ will likely not bring the antitrust because they would lose and waste tax payer money.
    Do you think wasting tax payer money has stopped government before? Especially the current government? Look at what they are doing with student Loans and raiding political opponents over paper work the guy had right to declassify?

    I am no fan of Trump but what they just did will just invited Republicans to seek revenge , and never ending pattern. The fault with the people started us down this road.or the , current administration.

    Using secret police to attack political opponents is what third world Banana republics  do. Nobody is above the law but you do not raid a former president over paper work when he just gave you 15 boxes back a couple months  ago, first lady’s underwear closet? I mean, really Democrats?

    I fear for our country as an independent, who voted for Obama Twice and Joe Biden in 2020

    I would say same thing if Trump had raided Hillary over her server/emails or Obama over the stuff he took for his library.
    edited August 2022 spock1234watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 36
    Madbum said:
    I would say same thing if Trump had raided Hillary over her server/emails or Obama over the stuff he took for his library.
    But Trump didn't do any of those things. And, that's the difference! They told us Trump was the 'Destroyer of Norms' and a 'Threat to Democracy', while clutching their pearls. But, look at them now.  It is the Democrats who have done all they claimed Trump would do - politicization of the Intelligence agencies, weaponization of the FBI against political enemies, and intimidation of parents. FBI SWAT teams raiding a 80 yr old man's house at night! Parading a 70 yr old in shackles for an alleged white-collar crime! This is beyond what the Founding Fathers feared from King George. Time to end this $hit.
    edited August 2022 Madbumwatto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 36
    wood1208wood1208 Posts: 2,813member
    US DOJ must not be busy doing what they suppose to do so looking for some low hanging fruits. Apple is one of them.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 30 of 36
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,736member
    gatorguy said:
    davidw said:
    seanj said:
    Arguably Apple using its market position with iOS to leverage AirTags via the bundling of the  FindMy app. It’s the same as when Microsoft bundled Internet Explorer with Windows. I imagine Apple’s lawyers would have flagged this to management long before it AirTags launched.

    The difference is AirTags is a useful product that is superior to the competition and which people prefer. Whereas IE was a complete pile of shit that Windows tried to force you to use by being the linked default browser - only later could this be changed.
    No, it is not the same. Windows OS is unquestionably a true monopoly on desktop (including laptops) computers. Windows at the time was the OS on over 95% of the World desktop computers and still on over 70% of them today. The claim was that Microsoft was leveraging their monopoly (Windows) in one market (desktop OS), to gain marketshare in another (browser).  That can be easily construed as a violation of anti-trust laws.  

    Here, iOS is only the OS on about 23% of the Worlds mobile devices. Not even the EU is claiming that Apple has a monopoly with iOS. The EU had to pass new anti-trust laws that can be applied where a tech company only needs to have a "dominate" marketshare, even if that "dominate" marketshare is less than 25% and they have a market cap over some arbitrary amount set to exclude any non US corporations.

    The difference is that iOS is not a monopoly, as defined under current anti-trust laws, using a "relevant" market that is not artificially narrowed down to one brand.
    Wouldn't US antitrust action be with regard to the US market and not "worldwide".
    Legit question as I'm not sure, but if the US would be the relevant restriction then iOS is absolutely close to being the dominant mobile platform if it is not already so.
    If the US government is going to try Apple, then it also have to go by current US anti-trust laws. The US do not try corporations in the US, using other countries anti-trust laws. Thus Apple only have about a 50% US actual install base marketshare, (not based on ever changing quarterly sales numbers). And under US Sherman Act, that is not enough to be a monopoly (in most cases), though one could consider having monopoly (market) power with less than 50% marketshare. The threshold is closer to a 65% marketshare to be a monopoly. Plus, the Sherman Act only applies when a company obtain their marketshare by unfair competition or are abusing their monopoly. Unlike the EU, the US do not punish a company for just for having a  monopoly or having monopoly (market) power that were obtained through fair competition and consumers choice. In the US, a monopoly or having monopoly power, are not necessarily illegal. A monopoly is the exclusion competition and monopoly (market) power is the ability to set prices, regardless of competition.

    In the US, it is much tougher to prove abuse of monopoly (market) power under the Sherman Act, if the company is only "dominate" in the market and not considered a monopoly. Much easier to do in the EU, under their new DMA and their "gatekeeper" classification.  

    https://law.jrank.org/pages/10247/Sherman-Anti-Trust-Act-Monopolies.html

    "Monopolies that have been created through efficient, competitive behavior are not illegal under the Sherman Act, as long as honest methods have been employed." 

    https://www.bonalaw.com/insights/legal-resources/what-is-a-monopolization-claim-under-the-federal-antitrust-laws

    Plus tile market their products internationally. They market their products outside of the US, on iOS and Android devices. They have also sought EU help against Apple. tile is a member of the Coalition of App Fairness. Along with Epic, Spotify and Match. What they all have in common is their claim that Apple is a monopoly. Thus to them, everything Apple does that negatively affects their profits, no matter how legal and fair, is a violation of unfair competition and anti-trust laws.




    watto_cobraspock1234
  • Reply 31 of 36
    MadbumMadbum Posts: 405member
    wood1208 said:
    US DOJ must not be busy doing what they suppose to do so looking for some low hanging fruits. Apple is one of them.
    Actually Apple case is not low hanging. It’s a very poor case for DOJ . Apple can hire better lawyers than DOJ, I mean look at the people they have. Raiding first lady’s  underwear closet for documents?Jesus Christ,  DOJ likely going after Apple because somebody in there is likely very close to China Tencent, owner of Epic games .

    Apple just needs to be focused and argue about security , which is the core of this. I don’t need everything to be open and free for people and government to be snooping around, Apple will protect us from this crazy government 

    my money is on Apple
    edited August 2022 watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 36
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    People are talking existing laws here. The US will almost certainly pass a law that opens the app store(s) eventually.  If that happens Tile will win or not need to take the case. If Apple is enforcing privacy on Tile and not on itself (that it it is using private API that would benefit Tile but would get Tile banned from from the App Store) then that is indeed anti competitive. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 33 of 36
    mknelson said:
    gilly33 said:

    Oh wow Apple shouldn’t favor their own services. I guess Walmart, Target et al, shouldn’t compete with and favor their own brands vs. other brands. Oh and sell them cheaper. That’s unfair business practices. What a shocker. 
    This is a little different. Apple was fine with Tile, even sold Tile, but now that Airtags are out Apple seems to be making life harder for Tile and other tracker companies to work on iOS.
    Actually, the problem is that Tile and other trackers really don't work all that well.

    The tracked object has to come within reception distance of another device with Tile app installed, and the odds of that happening are sparse even in a metropolitan area. In a rural area, the chances of that happening are pretty much nil.

    An AirTag only has to come within reception distance from an up to date iOS device to be detected and for its geographic location to be relayed.

    Apple offered to let third party trackers into the Find My ... network, but of course that would require a change in technology and a reengineering of the Tile devices.
  • Reply 34 of 36
    Basically, Apple is suffering from success, and that is a serious crime in certain quarters.

    Everybody has his mama go crying to regulators complaining about terms which were first established in 2008 with the creation of the iPhone app store.

    Apple created the iPhone in 2007 and the app store in 2008 at developer demand charging a 30% commission on all sales which was cheered on by developers since the then current brick and mortar sales channels wouldn't let developers/software publishers keep anywhere near that 70% total of software sales. Apple for that 30% would supply development tools, product placement, technical and product support, and all the marketing tools required to deliver vetted safe software to the end customer.

    My take?

    Apple should allow third party app stores but make the third party app store responsible for vetting their apps and providing technical support for the developers of those apps. It wouldn't take long for a store like Epic Games to release software with malware, and the solution for this problem when it hit Apple Technical Support would be to have the user who installed a third party app store go to that apps store's support or reset his/her device to factory settings and reinstall his/her Apple Store apps excluding the third party app store and all the apps installed by the third party app store. Users would quickly learn that the only really safe way to obtain software is through the Apple app store.

    App stores installation would be flagged on the Apple app store as having their own support structure and that Apple doesn't insure the safety of apps sold by this third party.
    spock1234bshank
  • Reply 35 of 36
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,824member
    spock1234 said:
    mknelson said:
    rob53 said:
    Of course this is political but why are we spending taxpayer money on this when there are so many other issues concerning illegal corporate and personal activities that continue to go unchecked. IRS was decimated and rich people got away with murder yet nothing is done. I'm tired of all the attacks on Apple for really insignificant things.
    Nothing? The IRS budget is being increased* in that Inflation Reduction Act (I know that and I'm in Canada).
    *and that increase is causing shrill screams and made up stories about 80+K auditors from Fox and others on the right.

    gilly33 said:
    Oh wow Apple shouldn’t favor their own services. I guess Walmart, Target et al, shouldn’t compete with and favor their own brands vs. other brands. Oh and sell them cheaper. That’s unfair business practices. What a shocker. 
    This is a little different. Apple was fine with Tile, even sold Tile, but now that Airtags are out Apple seems to be making life harder for Tile and other tracker companies to work on iOS.
    Your post makes no sense. Are you out of your mind? The IRS itself said they were hiring 87K employees, and in a job posting actually asked the candidates to be willing to use 'deadly force'. Perhaps some Canadians are used to being treated like cattle by their government, but we Americans have not reached that level yet.

    As for Tile, Apple is not preventing Tile from working with iPhones. What do you want them to do, let Tile use their Find My network for free?
    Uhm, so that question was taken out of context, and didn't apply to the bulk of IRS potential hires, only those in the IRS Criminal Investigation Division.

    https://www.verifythis.com/article/news/verify/government-verify/fact-check-irs-job-description-edited-to-remove-deadly-force-requirement/536-0769804a-dfcc-4443-b43c-7a68074f3e9f

    WHAT WE FOUND

    The IRS has a website that lists the qualifications and requirements for certain positions within its criminal division. One of those websites provides the description for an IRS Criminal Investigation special agent.

    The IRS Criminal Investigation (IRS-CI) division is a federal law enforcement agency that conducts criminal investigations on things like tax violations, money laundering, cyber crimes, and organized crime involving drugs and gangs. There are more than 2,000 sworn special agents in the division

    A spokesperson for the IRS told VERIFY the agents that work under the Criminal Investigation division are required to carry weapons as part of their everyday duties. The requirement to “carry a firearm and be willing to use deadly force, if necessary” should be on the job description for that reason, they said.   

    The IRS also confirmed to VERIFY someone edited the page to remove that requirement from the post.

    “It does appear that last week someone from within the employment office edited the job posting on this site to remove what they erroneously thought was language that should not be there,” an IRS spokesperson told VERIFY on Aug. 15. “They were told to put that language back as it is part of the [job] announcement for special agents.”

    So, your outrage is misplaced.

    It's ironic that those Americans that are MAGA followers are more likely also those that are happy to be treated like sheep by the MAGA cult leaders.
  • Reply 36 of 36
    bshankbshank Posts: 252member
    mknelson said:
    rob53 said:
    Of course this is political but why are we spending taxpayer money on this when there are so many other issues concerning illegal corporate and personal activities that continue to go unchecked. IRS was decimated and rich people got away with murder yet nothing is done. I'm tired of all the attacks on Apple for really insignificant things.
    Nothing? The IRS budget is being increased* in that Inflation Reduction Act (I know that and I'm in Canada).
    *and that increase is causing shrill screams and made up stories about 80+K auditors from Fox and others on the right.

    gilly33 said:
    Oh wow Apple shouldn’t favor their own services. I guess Walmart, Target et al, shouldn’t compete with and favor their own brands vs. other brands. Oh and sell them cheaper. That’s unfair business practices. What a shocker. 
    This is a little different. Apple was fine with Tile, even sold Tile, but now that Airtags are out Apple seems to be making life harder for Tile and other tracker companies to work on iOS.
    Wrong. Tile refused to join the FindMy network. They dug their own grave
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