Apple Watch sensor has racial bias, claims new lawsuit

13»

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 59
    maestro64 said:
    This lawsuit isn’t about what Apple did it was about what happen in NYC and how people of color were treated during Covid. As it was stated O2 skin sensor are less accurate or completely wrong the darker the skin becomes. If medical professionals did not know this that is their fault not the device you have to know the limitations of your tools. But I’m this country you can sue for any reason.
    On that basis alone it should be thrown out. The Apple Watch isn't a medical device and shouldn't be used to titrate oxygen levels. This is quite clear in Apple's documentation.
    9secondkox2
  • Reply 42 of 59
    Welp, looks like the racists (”it doesn't effect me so it can’t be racism”) are out in force.

    They key here is that even though the limits of oximeters are known, Apple went ahead and introduced the feature regardless of how it would impact users’ experience. No disclaimers. No apparent skin tone detection. No on Watch warning or dialogue allowing you to adjust for skin tone. And do on. It’s marketed, engineered, and now defended as working for the default skin color assumption... i.e light-skinned people. It’s not a leap to assume that has there been more people with darker skin tones involved in the decision making, this would have been flagged as a bug or a non-starter. So yes, this is the sort of structural or chain of casual racism that you can encounter.

    A simple search could have answered some of your claims:

    https://www.apple.com/healthcare/docs/site/Blood_Oxygen_app_on_Apple_Watch_October_2022.pdf








    I've had a number of people claiming on the Garmin Forums how they're outraged that their $1,000 watch doesn't give the same readings as a cheap pulse oximeter from Ebay. I highlight that their cheap eBay pulse oximeter also isn't FDA approved, and it could technically be a random number generator. Comparing 2x non-calibrated devices against each other and liking one set of numbers better than the other....laughable.

    I then point out that I have 2x expensive AF, medical grade, calibrated devices and my Garmin is reading exactly the same.....but fake news.


    edited December 2022 elijahg9secondkox2
  • Reply 43 of 59
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,842moderator
    This should give a hint as to why Apple makes it clear that the Watch is not a medical device and should not be relied upon as one…

    From the FDA communication on pulse oximetry accuracy…

    How to take a reading:
    • Follow your health care provider’s recommendations about when and how often to check your oxygen levels.
    • Be aware that multiple factors can affect the accuracy of a pulse oximeter reading, such as poor circulation, skin pigmentation, skin thickness, skin temperature, current tobacco use, and use of fingernail polish. To get the best reading from a pulse oximeter:
      • Follow the manufacturer’s instructions for use.
      • When placing the oximeter on your finger, make sure your hand is warm, relaxed, and held below the level of the heart. Remove any fingernail polish on that finger.
      • Sit still and do not move the part of your body where the pulse oximeter is located.
      • Wait a few seconds until the reading stops changing and displays one steady number.
    Are these people who are suing only taking measurements from Apple’s pulse oximetry technology while sitting still, with their wrist below their heart, with their hand/wrist warm and relaxed?  These factors are not required with the Apple Watch and that’s because the reading is a relative reading (likely using historic readings of that same watch owner and a bit of AI).  It’s not and never was an absolute reading, which it would be required to be in order to be criticized as inaccurate for any user or any group of users.  There’s no lawsuit here as the plaintive is imagining functionality that is simply not offered.  
    9secondkox2h4y3s
  • Reply 44 of 59
    rcomeau said:
    MacPro said:
    I can't see what Apple could do?  If they improved the sensitivity wouldn't that just make measurements better for light skins too, thus maintaining the differential?  It's physics not bias. 
    I don’t know what wavelength of light they use for these but there probably is a range in the non visible spectrum that could be used where skin tone would be irrelevant.
    Pulse oximetry depends on the differential absorbance of 2 (or more) different frequencies of IR light in the blood, specifically the oxygenated and deoxygenated haemoglobin. You can pick 2 IR wavelengths where the absorbance curves of oxi and de-oxi cross each other (typically pick one <700nm and one >800nm. Acquire relative intensity (changes in time) of both these wavelengths and you can fit them to a curve using something called the modified Beer-Lambert law to get an estimated change in blood oxygenation. You have to pick wavelengths that are on the right spots on the curve as well as what wavelengths of LED are actually available and affordable (only a new nm difference can mean a $1 LED or a $100LED due to the material in the LED that emits the light). This is not an easy problem to solve, other than blasting more light in, but you then run into concerns over heating the skin (absorbing IR light means conversion into heat) as well as power consumption and safety (too intense and you run the risk of eye damage if some fool stares into the back of the watch with the LEDs on. Not an easy fix.
    The Beer-Lambert law is pretty much the attenuation due to the imaginary part of the complex (real plus imaginary parts) index of refraction of the material (in this case the human tissue). The real part controlling the change in phase as the light propagates and so the angle of refraction. For a given material the index of refraction will have peaks and valleys in it described empirically by the Sellmeier equation. Basically the engineer would have to find a frequency of light where the imaginary part of the index of refraction isn’t significantly effected by the melanin in the skin. But as you mentioned whether or not it is economically practical depends on the availability of LEDs in that range. Bandgaps of LEDs can be tuned using structures like quantum wells though.
    Thats not correct. When light enters a medium, it can reflect, refract or be absorbed. Once light gets a few mm into the skin, it no longer has a coherent direction so it is treated as diffuse light (and phase is not relevant here). You can see this effect by shining your iPhone light through your finger. The basic mechanism being measured in a pulse oximeter (we manufacture a NIRS device that shines into the head and measures changes in blood-ox on the surface of the brain) is changes absorption (see https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-schematic-of-how-the-fNIRS-works-with-the-absorption-spectra-of-HbO2-and-Hb_fig1_316156990) for the oxi and de-oxi absorption vs. IR wavelength curves that dictate how this works.
    elijahg9secondkox2
  • Reply 45 of 59
    zimmie said:
    MacPro said:
    I can't see what Apple could do?  If they improved the sensitivity wouldn't that just make measurements better for light skins too, thus maintaining the differential?  It's physics not bias. 
    Not necessarily. All pulse oximeters use a measurement correction curve to convert from the amount of reflected light to an oxygenation percentage. That curve needs to change based on skin tone and possibly other characteristics we don’t even know about today (since only recently did a million people start carrying an oximeter around with them everywhere). Correcting the curve for darker skin would make readings for lighter skin less accurate, so it would need to be adjustable.
    There should be a calibration setting. 
    I can't imagine the calibrating process would be "what color shade is your skin: choose 1 to 10" and Apple Watch will adjust LED strength accordingly.
    Seems to be the simplest effort toward a solution. And sometimes that’s where the fruit is. Of course it’s not exactly so simple, otherwise it wouldn’t be an issue for so long. But if anyone can figure it out, it’s Apple. 

    Just a few years ago, watches told time and played really bad Atari 2600 style video games. Now they tell the time, control your phone, use the internet,  do email, messsging, manage your fitness, check your pulse, etc. that’s crazy. 

    And now we just expect everything to be perfect on this little watch - even when dedicated industrial grade equipment isn’t doing a better job. 

    And now there are actually people who want to SUE this company that has made such great strides in saving lives with a little watch by throwing the race card up when something doesn’t work perfectly?  The heck? No wonder they haven’t tried blood pressure monitoring yet. 

    So the idea of a calibration setting to get a better reading of blood oxygen seems logical, but actually accomplishing that will take some dedicated time if it’s possible at all. 

    And most importantly, as others have stated, Apple explicitly notes that the feature is not meant for medical purposes. Just to provide a general idea of health and wellness. As the lawsuit seems to be focused on the idea of a medical feature, it’s most likely to be tossed out by any competent judge not totally indoctrinated with critical race theory. 
    I am pretty confident that the watch performs some sort of calibration to try to tune it to see the greatest differential in absorbance with the minimal amount of light required (power consumption is important). It is possible that not enough effort was placed in looking at different skin tines, but since Apple has labs around the world, it would be surprising that they would have only tested on a few pasty white people. 
    elijahg
  • Reply 46 of 59
    qwerty52 said:
    I will sue Apple, because I am not able to fly as a bird, when having my Apple Watch on my wrist.
    And you would be right to sue if that was 1) A feature of the Apple Watch, 2) Others are able to fly while wearing the watch, 3) You can't fly (or fly as well) because of the color of your skin.  
    logic2.69secondkox2
  • Reply 47 of 59
    People are absurd.  :rolls eyes:  Where is Darwin when needed?  
    edited December 2022
  • Reply 48 of 59
     Whenever I believe modern life can not get more dumbed down along comes a story like this and I am proven wrong - humans go one level deeper on the stupid scale. 
    9secondkox2
  • Reply 49 of 59
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 2,783member
    That it has a bias based on skin tone is not the point, it’s well established, and even Apple has said as much. The question is whether something could be done about it, given the limits of the hardware. Apple is very clear that this is not a medical device. Saying that they should be able to calibrate it to differing skin tones, tattoos, hairiness, and such is an idea, but whether it’s feasible on something like the AW is another question. 

    There are a lot of things that don’t work for everyone due to differences and limitations. That doesn’t mean it’s malicious, sometimes that’s the best you can do. 
    radarthekat
  • Reply 50 of 59
    DAalseth said:
    That it has a bias based on skin tone is not the point, it’s well established, and even Apple has said as much. The question is whether something could be done about it, given the limits of the hardware. Apple is very clear that this is not a medical device. Saying that they should be able to calibrate it to differing skin tones, tattoos, hairiness, and such is an idea, but whether it’s feasible on something like the AW is another question. 

    There are a lot of things that don’t work for everyone due to differences and limitations. That doesn’t mean it’s malicious, sometimes that’s the best you can do. 
    A skin tone curve is not RACIAL or racially biased, which is what this lawsuit is about. You have dark and very dark skin tones all over the map. 

    Also, there is no favor here. So no bias. It’s a tech limitation. The tech works better on some skin tones than others due to the way skin tones are genetically created in the womb and even altered due to less or more sun exposure. Though it seems there is a more “favorable” outcome, there is no actual favor built into the design. It’s simply an effort to achieve a data reading with tech that’s able to accomplish this. 

    So it seems that neither count is correct and the lawsuit is reveal further to have no merit and thus be frivolous - especially when Apple is far from the only company to use this tech and is actually a latecomer to the scene. 
    radarthekat
  • Reply 51 of 59
    I believe Apple is not racist. Because its mission is to serve customer well. If it can improve Apple Watch to serve black people well it will do it simply because it can increase sales. This is the same basic reason Apple is following laws of the countries it sells the products. 
    radarthekat
  • Reply 52 of 59
    MacPro said:
    zimmie said:
    MacPro said:
    I can't see what Apple could do?  If they improved the sensitivity wouldn't that just make measurements better for light skins too, thus maintaining the differential?  It's physics not bias. 
    Not necessarily. All pulse oximeters use a measurement correction curve to convert from the amount of reflected light to an oxygenation percentage. That curve needs to change based on skin tone and possibly other characteristics we don’t even know about today (since only recently did a million people start carrying an oximeter around with them everywhere). Correcting the curve for darker skin would make readings for lighter skin less accurate, so it would need to be adjustable.
    That sounds not only doable, but automatable.
    Apple Watch Oxygen Sensor is already a mockery in Hospital settings and then you start applying corrections and corrections. At that point, do you even believe the number you get? No.

    The sue talks about the pandemic and darker tone not getting the right amount of supplemental oxygen. Well I doubt that any hospital strap an apple watch to some patient wrist to make that decision or even take the value from the patient’s AW because they absolutely hate when patients go and say my AW is saying this or that. They usually laughed and proceed to measure with the finger version used by 100% of the medical field. 

    This is a tech limitation that’s been known for decades that’s why they measure it on the nail bed because it’s  lighter/pink tone. 

    They just sue Apple because you know the deep pockets and the other reason is to prove they are completely a-holes. 
    DAalsethravnorodom
  • Reply 53 of 59
    MadbumMadbum Posts: 536member
    America is doomed. 

    Too much freedom here creating idiots from women filing frivolous lawsuits in the name of me too and this moron using race to get some money from Apple.

    the real victims here are the women who are real victims and people who are really racially discriminated against…


  • Reply 54 of 59
    MadbumMadbum Posts: 536member
    Should my friends mom sue Apple
    because Siri cannot understand her Italian  accent? Or my in laws sue for them not understanding their Chinese accent? 
    radarthekat
  • Reply 55 of 59
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 2,783member
    DAalseth said:
    That it has a bias based on skin tone is not the point, it’s well established, and even Apple has said as much. The question is whether something could be done about it, given the limits of the hardware. Apple is very clear that this is not a medical device. Saying that they should be able to calibrate it to differing skin tones, tattoos, hairiness, and such is an idea, but whether it’s feasible on something like the AW is another question. 

    There are a lot of things that don’t work for everyone due to differences and limitations. That doesn’t mean it’s malicious, sometimes that’s the best you can do. 
    A skin tone curve is not RACIAL or racially biased, which is what this lawsuit is about. You have dark and very dark skin tones all over the map. 

    Also, there is no favor here. So no bias. It’s a tech limitation. The tech works better on some skin tones than others due to the way skin tones are genetically created in the womb and even altered due to less or more sun exposure. Though it seems there is a more “favorable” outcome, there is no actual favor built into the design. It’s simply an effort to achieve a data reading with tech that’s able to accomplish this. 

    So it seems that neither count is correct and the lawsuit is reveal further to have no merit and thus be frivolous - especially when Apple is far from the only company to use this tech and is actually a latecomer to the scene. 
    Which is precisely what I said. 
  • Reply 56 of 59
    Yeah, I don't know about that.

    It is, however, biased against anyone that wears it on their right arm.  Probably those weirdo South Paws.
  • Reply 57 of 59
    @zimmie, I like your response based on comments sense and logic.  Apart from that, if (and I do say if) Apple revealed this possibility of inaccurate readings and why, then the consumer purchased knowingly (and yes, we are responsible for reading clauses).  I don't think companies should wait until there is technology available that is more accurate for every ethnicity or in this case skin tone, possible health history, etc., before deploying it (as long as it don't directly impair your health, and that knowingly).  If companies waited until such possibilities existed, we'd never learn, adapt and develop those possibilities.  Did they think that maybe (as indirectly suggested by zimmie and others commenters) that perhaps if more people use such devices they can be improved?  Now as for the cost, that's another issue and whether someone wants to file a lawsuit for percentage of profit based on feedback from my use of a device, well that's like saying let's sue Google for all the money it's made over 20 years of data gathering.  And I don't say that that should be pursued, but I don't think it applies to the oximeter issue.
  • Reply 58 of 59
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,842moderator
    I believe Apple is not racist. Because its mission is to serve customer well. If it can improve Apple Watch to serve black people well it will do it simply because it can increase sales. This is the same basic reason Apple is following laws of the countries it sells the products. 
    And the reason Apple is so good at accessibility features in all its products.  Apple truly wants to do well by doing good.  
    edited December 2022
Sign In or Register to comment.