Qualcomm wants to one-up Apple with better satellite phone coverage

Posted:
in iPhone
It's not enough to match Apple's Emergency SOS by Satellite, Qualcomm is promising full two-way text messaging through space with Snapdragon Satellite.




Maybe there is a much greater market for satellite cellphone connectivity than there seems. Or perhaps smartphone manufacturers are running out of new features to add.

Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite.

Apple's system is real, it's here, and it has already saved lives, but it is limited. Once a user has successfully pointed their iPhone 14 at a satellite, the phone sends out a highly compressed, very short text message.

That then gets relayed via satellite either directly to the emergency services, or to an Apple-supported call center which passes on the information.

Now Qualcomm has announced at the Consumer Electronics Show that its service will go much further. Instead of the one short message calling for assistance, Android users will be able to send and receive text messages via satellite.

Qualcomm's announcement still calls it emergency messaging, but says that it is "the world's first satellite-based two-way capable messaging solution." It's "truly global coverage... for a variety of purposes such as emergencies or recreation in remote, rural and offshore locations."

The service is intended to work with premium Android devices, in unspecified select regions, from the second half of 2023. It will use satellite network Iridium's L-band spectrum, which is said to be "weather-resilient."

"Robust and reliable connectivity is at the heart of premium experiences," said Durga Malladi, Qualcomm's senior vice president and general manager, cellular modems and infrastructure. "Snapdragon Satellite showcases our history of leadership in enabling global satellite communications and our ability to bring superior innovations to mobile devices at scale."

"Kicking off in premium smartphones later this year," continued Malladi, "this new addition to our Snapdragon platform strongly positions us to enable satellite communication capabilities and service offerings across multiple device categories."

Malladi means that once phones have this satellite messaging, it will move on to "laptops, tablets, vehicles and [Internet of Things] IoT."

It's getting crowded

Qualcomm says premium Android phones will get this satellite reception feature in the second half of 2023. But before Apple actually launched its own service, Elon Musk and T-Mobile also promised a 2023 satellite product.

Or very nearly. They announced that their system would go in to beta testing by late 2023, so it's really a 2024 launch at best. They also claim to be doing more than Apple, though the press announcement tailed off into vagueness when it came to specifics.

Also, their network relies on Musk's Spacelink satellites, and specifically on many that haven't been launched yet.

Space is getting a bit busy.

AppleInsider will be covering the 2023 Consumer Electronics Show in person on January 2 through January 8 where we're expecting Wi-Fi 6e devices, HomeKit, Apple accessories, 8K monitors and more. Keep up with our coverage by downloading the AppleInsider app, and follow us on YouTube, Twitter @appleinsider and Facebook for live, late-breaking coverage. You can also check out our official Instagram account for exclusive photos throughout the event.

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 19
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 2,783member
    Mostly it’s just hype and vague hand waving. But we are working toward actual satellite cell service. No more worrying about coverage, or if the blackout shut down your close towers, (that happened to us in December). Actual any time anywhere cell coverage. It won’t be in ‘23 or even ‘24. I’m thinking the early ‘30s, but you can see the first bits now. 
    lkrupplollivern2itivguy
  • Reply 2 of 19
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 10,557member
    DAalseth said:
    Mostly it’s just hype and vague hand waving. But we are working toward actual satellite cell service. No more worrying about coverage, or if the blackout shut down your close towers, (that happened to us in December). Actual any time anywhere cell coverage. It won’t be in ‘23 or even ‘24. I’m thinking the early ‘30s, but you can see the first bits now. 
    I’m thinking this will be more hype than anything, just like 5G has turned out to be. Just like fusion power generation has promised cheap, clean, non polluting energy for fifty years now. And it will be very expensive too.
    watto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 3 of 19
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 2,783member
    lkrupp said:
    DAalseth said:
    Mostly it’s just hype and vague hand waving. But we are working toward actual satellite cell service. No more worrying about coverage, or if the blackout shut down your close towers, (that happened to us in December). Actual any time anywhere cell coverage. It won’t be in ‘23 or even ‘24. I’m thinking the early ‘30s, but you can see the first bits now. 
    I’m thinking this will be more hype than anything, just like 5G has turned out to be. Just like fusion power generation has promised cheap, clean, non polluting energy for fifty years now. And it will be very expensive too.
    Yeah 5G turned out for a lot of us to be a big nothing. But this would be a bigger shift. I remember when cell phones first came out in the ‘80s. they were expensive, and heavy, and only a very few had or could justify them. But nearly forty years later they are, for most people, what phones are, and landlines are rare. We likely are looking at a similer time scale. So maybe not the ‘30s, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see them fairly widespread by the ‘40s. 

    As far as fusion, yeah that seems to be on a slow track. As a couple of people pointed out, with the vast improvements in solar and wind generation, both getting their energy from the sun, we ARE using fusion power. Just the reactor is 93 million miles away. 
    lollivern2itivguy
  • Reply 4 of 19
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,709member
    This is just another example of me too by Qualcomm how many Apple competitors raise their hand after Apple releases a product/feature to the general public with the ability of working in an practical easy to use manner. That is what puts them ahead of most of the me too me too Google, Qualcomm, Samsung, and Microsoft, who raise their hand me to me too, after an Apple innovation, Wall Street, analyst’s and so-called tech experts fall for me too me too every time, and in the same breath, say Apple doesn’t innovate and their overvalued.

    When Apple first announced their new feature, I thought, this seems like a small feature outside hard core global explorers. But the more I thought about it could be the start of something big and sure enough the competition is now scrambling me too me too…..

    lolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 19
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,529member
    "Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite."

    Technically speaking, Apple didn't beat everyone.

    Huawei beat them to it with a phone (Mate 50 Pro) that had been delayed by a year due to sanctions. It was originally scheduled for release in September 2021. It was also technically more challenging as the Huawei phone connects to high orbit satellites. 


    gatorguyn2itivguy
  • Reply 6 of 19
    bulk001bulk001 Posts: 746member
    lkrupp said:
    DAalseth said:
    Mostly it’s just hype and vague hand waving. But we are working toward actual satellite cell service. No more worrying about coverage, or if the blackout shut down your close towers, (that happened to us in December). Actual any time anywhere cell coverage. It won’t be in ‘23 or even ‘24. I’m thinking the early ‘30s, but you can see the first bits now. 
    I’m thinking this will be more hype than anything, just like 5G has turned out to be. Just like fusion power generation has promised cheap, clean, non polluting energy for fifty years now. And it will be very expensive too.
    How did you manage to work fusion power into your ever sour and deranged commentary? Personally all for people devoting themselves to trying to accomplish new things. “Ah, I discovered the wheel! No cars for it so it will never work!” “Must be hard to be you!”
    appleinsideruserwatto_cobraelijahggrandact73
  • Reply 7 of 19
    MadbumMadbum Posts: 527member
    How will they cover the cost? Apple is covering cost for the emergency SOS but full satellite messaging will be costly based on how much satellite phones rates are
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 19
    MadbumMadbum Posts: 527member
    DAalseth said:
    lkrupp said:
    DAalseth said:
    Mostly it’s just hype and vague hand waving. But we are working toward actual satellite cell service. No more worrying about coverage, or if the blackout shut down your close towers, (that happened to us in December). Actual any time anywhere cell coverage. It won’t be in ‘23 or even ‘24. I’m thinking the early ‘30s, but you can see the first bits now. 
    I’m thinking this will be more hype than anything, just like 5G has turned out to be. Just like fusion power generation has promised cheap, clean, non polluting energy for fifty years now. And it will be very expensive too.
    Yeah 5G turned out for a lot of us to be a big nothing. But this would be a bigger shift. I remember when cell phones first came out in the ‘80s. they were expensive, and heavy, and only a very few had or could justify them. But nearly forty years later they are, for most people, what phones are, and landlines are rare. We likely are looking at a similer time scale. So maybe not the ‘30s, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see them fairly widespread by the ‘40s. 

    As far as fusion, yeah that seems to be on a slow track. As a couple of people pointed out, with the vast improvements in solar and wind generation, both getting their energy from the sun, we ARE using fusion power. Just the reactor is 93 million miles away. 
    5G if you have TMOBILE network wasn’t nothing. Much much faster 

    as for this, the chip may support it, but who covers the cost? Apple is giving it for free essentially if you upgrade your phone every 2 years but nobody can do satellite texting  free 
    lolliverwatto_cobran2itivguygrandact73
  • Reply 9 of 19
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,135member
    Iridium's L-band spectrum, which is said to be "weather-resilient."

    Hahaha hold my aching sides. My iridium sat phone falls unconscious as soon as a decent cloud passes over.

    I am waiting for starlink to offer a decent mobile service. Focus Elon! Focus!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 19
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,709member
    avon b7 said:
    "Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite."

    Technically speaking, Apple didn't beat everyone.

    Huawei beat them to it with a phone (Mate 50 Pro) that had been delayed by a year due to sanctions. It was originally scheduled for release in September 2021. It was also technically more challenging as the Huawei phone connects to high orbit satellites. 


    Samsung beat Apple to a folding phone but so what being first doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t work very well, speaking of which I think that Microsoft and one of their clone makers, beat Apple to a tablet (publicly shown prototype @ CES) 10 years before the iPad, what happened with that, it’s not being first it’s who can design/engineer something that actually works something that most people can use without a propeller head.

    The failure of Xerox research labs is also another example of that, they had the entire future (or at least a big part of it) of computing in their research labs, but management didn’t want to step on their existing copying empire, so therefore, nothing got done in the end at least by Xerox.
    edited January 2023 watto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 11 of 19
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,529member
    danox said:
    avon b7 said:
    "Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite."

    Technically speaking, Apple didn't beat everyone.

    Huawei beat them to it with a phone (Mate 50 Pro) that had been delayed by a year due to sanctions. It was originally scheduled for release in September 2021. It was also technically more challenging as the Huawei phone connects to high orbit satellites. 


    Samsung beat Apple to a folding phone but so what being first doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t work very well, speaking of which I think that Microsoft and one of their clone makers, beat Apple to a tablet (publicly shown prototype @ CES) 10 years before the iPad, what happened with that, it’s not being first it’s who can design/engineer something that actually works something that most people can use without a propeller head.

    The failure of Xerox research labs is also another example of that, they had the entire future (or at least a big part of it) of computing in their research labs, but management didn’t want to step on their existing copying empire, so therefore, nothing got done in the end at least by Xerox.
    My point was that the claim made wasn't technically correct. Albeit minor point.

    As for folding phones, they have hit the ground running. With the exception of a few Samsung review units, no big manufacturer of folding phones has suffered from any of the problems that many forecast for them. They have been a massive success, selling far more than even manufacturers anticipated. The only sour (but logical) point has been the brake on sales as a result of price. As expected, that brake is coming off fast as new players release phones and each new generation reduces the overhead costs resulting from development. A lot of folding phones have been limited to China but that is changing now. 

    Apple has been in the same situation with less than stellar results. Even the original iPhone was an extremely expensive and limited device. Mac OS X was in no way ready for prime time on release. The first MacBook Air overhead easily. The first MacBook shipped underpowered and underported. The butterfly keyboard had design issues. The cylinder Mac Pro also had design related problems. The original iMac one button mouse was an exercise in stubbornness. As was not moving to larger phone screens. As was not moving to 'sticky' menus. As was sticking with a 5W charger for 10 years. As was front mounted ports. As was USB 2. The TouchBar is no more. Force Touch is no more. 

    I'm sure you get what I'm saying. Apple has a long history of not getting things right and for many reasons. 'Waiting' or 'being first' is irrelevant except in some very limited cases. 

    If we look at the smartphone market over the last 6 years Apple has basically been playing catch up to key features on Android devices. 

    In a punch for punch trade off of features, Apple wasn't able to push everything that Android was bringing to market into a few iPhone models. It was always going to be on the back foot in that regard but Apple could drip feed those features to users as it basically has a captive (locked in audience) so iPhone users had to sit back and wait for features to arrive. The one big technical exception was the CPU situation (along with the video area maybe) but can you remember the last time you heard an Android user say they needed more raw speed on their flagship phones or better video? You'd have to go back many, many years to find an example. Not even iPhone users with old iPhones were needing more raw speed. What they really needed with regards to Android phones were things Apple was dragging its feet on. Wireless charging, reverse wireless charging, fast wired charging, low noise photography, low light photography, high screen refresh rates. More biometric options. Although no Android manufacturer has suffered in the slightest from not adopting 3D sensing for things like authentication, Apple even dragged its feet on that. Huawei made it far more useful out the gate (horizontal unlock, 3D small object modeling, eyes on AOD, better privacy with the phone unlocked...). Ah! and the second iteration reduced the notch size. Apple didn't. Ditto bezels. 

    Is there any valid reason for Apple not bringing horizontal unlock to the iPhone until now? Nope. It simply decided to hold it back. It should have been there right from the beginning. It's a classic example of why what you are claiming is incorrect. Apple didn't see a need for it in the development phase. How is that possible? But now they do? What changed? 

    The reality is that everyone gets things right sometimes and everyone gets things wrong sometimes. Apple is no different. 

    The satellite functionality was ready, yes on an 'Android' phone a full year before it appeared on iPhone. The problem was that that phone was subjected to sanctions and couldn't be brought to market on schedule due to geopolitical issues but even a year late it still brought competitive flagship class features to market ahead of others. And for the technical challenges (and they were) that Apple spoke of with regards to getting a signal from a smartphone up into a low orbit satellite, imagine what it must have entailed getting it into a high orbit satellite. 



    edited January 2023 muthuk_vanalingamctt_zhelijahg
  • Reply 12 of 19
    MadbumMadbum Posts: 527member
    avon b7 said:
    danox said:
    avon b7 said:
    "Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite."

    Technically speaking, Apple didn't beat everyone.

    Huawei beat them to it with a phone (Mate 50 Pro) that had been delayed by a year due to sanctions. It was originally scheduled for release in September 2021. It was also technically more challenging as the Huawei phone connects to high orbit satellites. 


    Samsung beat Apple to a folding phone but so what being first doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t work very well, speaking of which I think that Microsoft and one of their clone makers, beat Apple to a tablet (publicly shown prototype @ CES) 10 years before the iPad, what happened with that, it’s not being first it’s who can design/engineer something that actually works something that most people can use without a propeller head.

    The failure of Xerox research labs is also another example of that, they had the entire future (or at least a big part of it) of computing in their research labs, but management didn’t want to step on their existing copying empire, so therefore, nothing got done in the end at least by Xerox.
    My point was that the claim made wasn't technically correct. Albeit minor point.

    As for folding phones, they have hit the ground running. With the exception of a few Samsung review units, no big manufacturer of folding phones has suffered from any of the problems that many forecast for them. They have been a massive success, selling far more than even manufacturers anticipated. The only sour (but logical) point has been the brake on sales as a result of price. As expected, that brake is coming off fast as new players release phones and each new generation reduces the overhead costs resulting from development. A lot of folding phones have been limited to China but that is changing now. 

    Apple has been in the same situation with less than stellar results. Even the original iPhone was an extremely expensive and limited device. Mac OS X was in no way ready for prime time on release. The first MacBook Air overhead easily. The first MacBook shipped underpowered and underported. The butterfly keyboard had design issues. The cylinder Mac Pro also had design related problems. The original iMac one button mouse was an exercise in stubbornness. As was not moving to larger phone screens. As was not moving to 'sticky' menus. As was sticking with a 5W charger for 10 years. As was front mounted ports. As was USB 2. The TouchBar is no more. Force Touch is no more. 

    I'm sure you get what I'm saying. Apple has a long history of not getting things right and for many reasons. 'Waiting' or 'being first' is irrelevant except in some very limited cases. 

    If we look at the smartphone market over the last 6 years Apple has basically been playing catch up to key features on Android devices. 

    In a punch for punch trade off of features, Apple wasn't able to push everything that Android was bringing to market into a few iPhone models. It was always going to be on the back foot in that regard but Apple could drip feed those features to users as it basically has a captive (locked in audience) so iPhone users had to sit back and wait for features to arrive. The one big technical exception was the CPU situation (along with the video area maybe) but can you remember the last time you heard an Android user say they needed more raw speed on their flagship phones or better video? You'd have to go back many, many years to find an example. Not even iPhone users with old iPhones were needing more raw speed. What they really needed with regards to Android phones were things Apple was dragging its feet on. Wireless charging, reverse wireless charging, fast wired charging, low noise photography, low light photography, high screen refresh rates. More biometric options. Although no Android manufacturer has suffered in the slightest from not adopting 3D sensing for things like authentication, Apple even dragged its feet on that. Huawei made it far more useful out the gate (horizontal unlock, 3D small object modeling, eyes on AOD, better privacy with the phone unlocked...). Ah! and the second iteration reduced the notch size. Apple didn't. Ditto bezels. 

    Is there any valid reason for Apple not bringing horizontal unlock to the iPhone until now? Nope. It simply decided to hold it back. It should have been there right from the beginning. It's a classic example of why what you are claiming is incorrect. Apple didn't see a need for it in the development phase. How is that possible? But now they do? What changed? 

    The reality is that everyone gets things right sometimes and everyone gets things wrong sometimes. Apple is no different. 

    The satellite functionality was ready, yes on an 'Android' phone a full year before it appeared on iPhone. The problem was that that phone was subjected to sanctions and couldn't be brought to market on schedule due to geopolitical issues but even a year late it still brought competitive flagship class features to market ahead of others. And for the technical challenges (and they were) that Apple spoke of with regards to getting a signal from a smartphone up into a low orbit satellite, imagine what it must have entailed getting it into a high orbit satellite. 



    Android fan boy much lol…

    Apple has the Fastest Mobile Processor and it now has Satellite SOS that saves lives

    ao Android can side load. Dirty European or Chinese software… and? So? Lol
    tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 19
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,529member
    Madbum said:
    avon b7 said:
    danox said:
    avon b7 said:
    "Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite."

    Technically speaking, Apple didn't beat everyone.

    Huawei beat them to it with a phone (Mate 50 Pro) that had been delayed by a year due to sanctions. It was originally scheduled for release in September 2021. It was also technically more challenging as the Huawei phone connects to high orbit satellites. 


    Samsung beat Apple to a folding phone but so what being first doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t work very well, speaking of which I think that Microsoft and one of their clone makers, beat Apple to a tablet (publicly shown prototype @ CES) 10 years before the iPad, what happened with that, it’s not being first it’s who can design/engineer something that actually works something that most people can use without a propeller head.

    The failure of Xerox research labs is also another example of that, they had the entire future (or at least a big part of it) of computing in their research labs, but management didn’t want to step on their existing copying empire, so therefore, nothing got done in the end at least by Xerox.
    My point was that the claim made wasn't technically correct. Albeit minor point.

    As for folding phones, they have hit the ground running. With the exception of a few Samsung review units, no big manufacturer of folding phones has suffered from any of the problems that many forecast for them. They have been a massive success, selling far more than even manufacturers anticipated. The only sour (but logical) point has been the brake on sales as a result of price. As expected, that brake is coming off fast as new players release phones and each new generation reduces the overhead costs resulting from development. A lot of folding phones have been limited to China but that is changing now. 

    Apple has been in the same situation with less than stellar results. Even the original iPhone was an extremely expensive and limited device. Mac OS X was in no way ready for prime time on release. The first MacBook Air overhead easily. The first MacBook shipped underpowered and underported. The butterfly keyboard had design issues. The cylinder Mac Pro also had design related problems. The original iMac one button mouse was an exercise in stubbornness. As was not moving to larger phone screens. As was not moving to 'sticky' menus. As was sticking with a 5W charger for 10 years. As was front mounted ports. As was USB 2. The TouchBar is no more. Force Touch is no more. 

    I'm sure you get what I'm saying. Apple has a long history of not getting things right and for many reasons. 'Waiting' or 'being first' is irrelevant except in some very limited cases. 

    If we look at the smartphone market over the last 6 years Apple has basically been playing catch up to key features on Android devices. 

    In a punch for punch trade off of features, Apple wasn't able to push everything that Android was bringing to market into a few iPhone models. It was always going to be on the back foot in that regard but Apple could drip feed those features to users as it basically has a captive (locked in audience) so iPhone users had to sit back and wait for features to arrive. The one big technical exception was the CPU situation (along with the video area maybe) but can you remember the last time you heard an Android user say they needed more raw speed on their flagship phones or better video? You'd have to go back many, many years to find an example. Not even iPhone users with old iPhones were needing more raw speed. What they really needed with regards to Android phones were things Apple was dragging its feet on. Wireless charging, reverse wireless charging, fast wired charging, low noise photography, low light photography, high screen refresh rates. More biometric options. Although no Android manufacturer has suffered in the slightest from not adopting 3D sensing for things like authentication, Apple even dragged its feet on that. Huawei made it far more useful out the gate (horizontal unlock, 3D small object modeling, eyes on AOD, better privacy with the phone unlocked...). Ah! and the second iteration reduced the notch size. Apple didn't. Ditto bezels. 

    Is there any valid reason for Apple not bringing horizontal unlock to the iPhone until now? Nope. It simply decided to hold it back. It should have been there right from the beginning. It's a classic example of why what you are claiming is incorrect. Apple didn't see a need for it in the development phase. How is that possible? But now they do? What changed? 

    The reality is that everyone gets things right sometimes and everyone gets things wrong sometimes. Apple is no different. 

    The satellite functionality was ready, yes on an 'Android' phone a full year before it appeared on iPhone. The problem was that that phone was subjected to sanctions and couldn't be brought to market on schedule due to geopolitical issues but even a year late it still brought competitive flagship class features to market ahead of others. And for the technical challenges (and they were) that Apple spoke of with regards to getting a signal from a smartphone up into a low orbit satellite, imagine what it must have entailed getting it into a high orbit satellite. 



    Android fan boy much lol…

    Apple has the Fastest Mobile Processor and it now has Satellite SOS that saves lives

    ao Android can side load. Dirty European or Chinese software… and? So? Lol
    That's a very empty viewpoint. 

    I use iOS, macOS, Android and HarmonyOS. 

    On a phone I'd take the particular Android I use over iOS any day. It's night and day. Note, I have never used Windows as a daily desktop driver. 

    Speed? How are you definíng that? 

    I ask because in many everyday situations (probably most over the last few years), Android flagships have actually been 'faster'. That is due to high screen refresh rates, faster LTE, faster wifi, faster charging, faster and more stable Bluetooth, faster app opening, AI (Huawei had a system where it would track your finger over the screen before you actually touched it and would start preparing to activate that element before you confirmed it). 

    You see, 'faster' only means 'faster' if it's actually noticeable. Forget Android phones for a second. Do you see users with older macs/iPhones craving for that 'faster' processing speed of the latest devices? Not at all. The vast majority are perfectly happy and not seeing a need for more raw processing speed. There is a reason for that. 

    Now, if you talked about 'transport' speed (storage, Wi-Fi, LTE) then that might be a different story but there you have a 10 year old Lightning connection on iPhones so that is a data transport albatross for wired connections on iPhones so the speed for that has to be wireless. But where was Apple on that front until relatively recently? Stuck with Intel modems until they saw the 5G boat (on Android phones!) sailing far into the distance and had to backtrack on their fight with Qualcomm, 'settle' at lightning speed (ha! No! Not that Lightning) just to scramble to get an older, slower, Qualcomm 5G modem bolted onto an iPhone. A true YIKES! moment. Yes and Huawei famously said its Wi-Fi 5 was faster than Apple’s Wi-Fi 6 and then Huawei brought WiFi 6+ to its ecosystem taking advantage of its own 5G technologies. 

    But as you say, those iPhones were 'faster'. Except very few people actually saw that faster speed because 'instant' is 'instant' even when an iPhone's instant is technically faster. 

    Satellite connectivity is clearly a niche option right now but that is where flagship phones shine. Can you remember when people said iPhones didn't need two cameras (because that is what Android phones had) . People changed their tune when dual cameras eventually arrived on iPhones, but in true Apple fashion, only on the most expensive models first. History repeated itself when it came to tri-cameras. Would you like to speak of periscope lenses? No one would accept going back to single lens cameras now. Those who said dual cameras were unnecessary were just plain wrong. 

    And, the EU aside, USB-C would have come to iPhone at some point. Late, but it would have got there eventually. Phased in? Only on the more expensive models? I wouldn't doubt that except the EU has probably killed that option to drip feed users. 

    For me, a flagship can justify niche features just on price until they wind their way down to lower end devices. There is nothing wrong with that and if for some freak reason you actually need to use the function, you'll be very, very grateful you had it. 

    Fanboy? 

    Hardly, but I know enough about these things to have a balanced opinion. 



    edited January 2023 ctt_zhgatorguyelijahgmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 14 of 19
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,250member
    avon b7 said:
    Madbum said:
    avon b7 said:
    danox said:
    avon b7 said:
    "Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite."

    Technically speaking, Apple didn't beat everyone.

    Huawei beat them to it with a phone (Mate 50 Pro) that had been delayed by a year due to sanctions. It was originally scheduled for release in September 2021. It was also technically more challenging as the Huawei phone connects to high orbit satellites. 


    Samsung beat Apple to a folding phone but so what being first doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t work very well, speaking of which I think that Microsoft and one of their clone makers, beat Apple to a tablet (publicly shown prototype @ CES) 10 years before the iPad, what happened with that, it’s not being first it’s who can design/engineer something that actually works something that most people can use without a propeller head.

    The failure of Xerox research labs is also another example of that, they had the entire future (or at least a big part of it) of computing in their research labs, but management didn’t want to step on their existing copying empire, so therefore, nothing got done in the end at least by Xerox.
    My point was that the claim made wasn't technically correct. Albeit minor point.

    As for folding phones, they have hit the ground running. With the exception of a few Samsung review units, no big manufacturer of folding phones has suffered from any of the problems that many forecast for them. They have been a massive success, selling far more than even manufacturers anticipated. The only sour (but logical) point has been the brake on sales as a result of price. As expected, that brake is coming off fast as new players release phones and each new generation reduces the overhead costs resulting from development. A lot of folding phones have been limited to China but that is changing now. 

    Apple has been in the same situation with less than stellar results. Even the original iPhone was an extremely expensive and limited device. Mac OS X was in no way ready for prime time on release. The first MacBook Air overhead easily. The first MacBook shipped underpowered and underported. The butterfly keyboard had design issues. The cylinder Mac Pro also had design related problems. The original iMac one button mouse was an exercise in stubbornness. As was not moving to larger phone screens. As was not moving to 'sticky' menus. As was sticking with a 5W charger for 10 years. As was front mounted ports. As was USB 2. The TouchBar is no more. Force Touch is no more. 

    I'm sure you get what I'm saying. Apple has a long history of not getting things right and for many reasons. 'Waiting' or 'being first' is irrelevant except in some very limited cases. 

    If we look at the smartphone market over the last 6 years Apple has basically been playing catch up to key features on Android devices. 

    In a punch for punch trade off of features, Apple wasn't able to push everything that Android was bringing to market into a few iPhone models. It was always going to be on the back foot in that regard but Apple could drip feed those features to users as it basically has a captive (locked in audience) so iPhone users had to sit back and wait for features to arrive. The one big technical exception was the CPU situation (along with the video area maybe) but can you remember the last time you heard an Android user say they needed more raw speed on their flagship phones or better video? You'd have to go back many, many years to find an example. Not even iPhone users with old iPhones were needing more raw speed. What they really needed with regards to Android phones were things Apple was dragging its feet on. Wireless charging, reverse wireless charging, fast wired charging, low noise photography, low light photography, high screen refresh rates. More biometric options. Although no Android manufacturer has suffered in the slightest from not adopting 3D sensing for things like authentication, Apple even dragged its feet on that. Huawei made it far more useful out the gate (horizontal unlock, 3D small object modeling, eyes on AOD, better privacy with the phone unlocked...). Ah! and the second iteration reduced the notch size. Apple didn't. Ditto bezels. 

    Is there any valid reason for Apple not bringing horizontal unlock to the iPhone until now? Nope. It simply decided to hold it back. It should have been there right from the beginning. It's a classic example of why what you are claiming is incorrect. Apple didn't see a need for it in the development phase. How is that possible? But now they do? What changed? 

    The reality is that everyone gets things right sometimes and everyone gets things wrong sometimes. Apple is no different. 

    The satellite functionality was ready, yes on an 'Android' phone a full year before it appeared on iPhone. The problem was that that phone was subjected to sanctions and couldn't be brought to market on schedule due to geopolitical issues but even a year late it still brought competitive flagship class features to market ahead of others. And for the technical challenges (and they were) that Apple spoke of with regards to getting a signal from a smartphone up into a low orbit satellite, imagine what it must have entailed getting it into a high orbit satellite. 



    Android fan boy much lol…

    Apple has the Fastest Mobile Processor and it now has Satellite SOS that saves lives

    ao Android can side load. Dirty European or Chinese software… and? So? Lol
    That's a very empty viewpoint. 

    I use iOS, macOS, Android and HarmonyOS. 

    On a phone I'd take the particular Android I use over iOS any day. It's night and day. Note, I have never used Windows as a daily desktop driver. 

    Speed? How are you definíng that? 

    I ask because in many everyday situations (probably most over the last few years), Android flagships have actually been 'faster'. That is due to high screen refresh rates, faster LTE, faster wifi, faster charging, faster and more stable Bluetooth, faster app opening, AI (Huawei had a system where it would track your finger over the screen before you actually touched it and would start preparing to activate that element before you confirmed it). 

    You see, 'faster' only means 'faster' if it's actually noticeable. Forget Android phones for a second. Do you see users with older macs/iPhones craving for that 'faster' processing speed of the latest devices? Not at all. The vast majority are perfectly happy and not seeing a need for more raw processing speed. There is a reason for that. 

    Now, if you talked about 'transport' speed (storage, Wi-Fi, LTE) then that might be a different story but there you have a 10 year old Lightning connection on iPhones so that is a data transport albatross for wired connections on iPhones so the speed for that has to be wireless. But where was Apple on that front until relatively recently? Stuck with Intel modems until they saw the 5G boat (on Android phones!) sailing far into the distance and had to backtrack on their fight with Qualcomm, 'settle' at lightning speed (ha! No! Not that Lightning) just to scramble to get an older, slower, Qualcomm 5G modem bolted onto an iPhone. A true YIKES! moment. Yes and Huawei famously said its Wi-Fi 5 was faster than Apple’s Wi-Fi 6 and then Huawei brought WiFi 6+ to its ecosystem taking advantage of its own 5G technologies. 

    But as you say, those iPhones were 'faster'. Except very few people actually saw that faster speed because 'instant' is 'instant' even when an iPhone's instant is technically faster. 

    Satellite connectivity is clearly a niche option right now but that is where flagship phones shine. Can you remember when people said iPhones didn't need two cameras (because that is what Android phones had) . People changed their tune when dual cameras eventually arrived on iPhones, but in true Apple fashion, only on the most expensive models first. History repeated itself when it came to tri-cameras. Would you like to speak of periscope lenses? No one would accept going back to single lens cameras now. Those who said dual cameras were unnecessary were just plain wrong. 

    And, the EU aside, USB-C would have come to iPhone at some point. Late, but it would have got there eventually. Phased in? Only on the more expensive models? I wouldn't doubt that except the EU has probably killed that option to drip feed users. 

    For me, a flagship can justify niche features just on price until they wind their way down to lower end devices. There is nothing wrong with that and if for some freak reason you actually need to use the function, you'll be very, very grateful you had it. 

    Fanboy? 

    Hardly, but I know enough about these things to have a balanced opinion. 



    I posted what I expect is the supporting link for your document;

    https://www.phonearena.com/news/rumors-that-huawei-will-use-kirin-chips-in-2023-false_id143658

    In 2020, exactly one year to the day that the U.S. put Huawei on the Entity List the U.S. Commerce Department issued a new export rule change dealing with chips. The new rule prevents foundries using American technology from shipping chips to Huawei. Even the latter's own Kirin chips, designed by the company's HiSilicon semiconductor unit, could not be shipped to the company because of the new export rules.

    Qualcomm received permission from the U.S. to ship 4G versions of its latest chipset to Huawei


    Eventually, Huawei went through its inventory of Kirin chips and the U.S. gave Qualcomm permission to supply the company with its powerful Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1 chips, but these are made to work with 4G signals. Yes, the recently released Mate 50 and Mate 50 Pro are powered with these chipsets which means no 5G connectivity, but there is a way around this. A company called Soyealink is selling a case for the Mate 50 series that will allow the phones to connect to 5G signals.

    Sad
  • Reply 15 of 19
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,529member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Madbum said:
    avon b7 said:
    danox said:
    avon b7 said:
    "Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite."

    Technically speaking, Apple didn't beat everyone.

    Huawei beat them to it with a phone (Mate 50 Pro) that had been delayed by a year due to sanctions. It was originally scheduled for release in September 2021. It was also technically more challenging as the Huawei phone connects to high orbit satellites. 


    Samsung beat Apple to a folding phone but so what being first doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t work very well, speaking of which I think that Microsoft and one of their clone makers, beat Apple to a tablet (publicly shown prototype @ CES) 10 years before the iPad, what happened with that, it’s not being first it’s who can design/engineer something that actually works something that most people can use without a propeller head.

    The failure of Xerox research labs is also another example of that, they had the entire future (or at least a big part of it) of computing in their research labs, but management didn’t want to step on their existing copying empire, so therefore, nothing got done in the end at least by Xerox.
    My point was that the claim made wasn't technically correct. Albeit minor point.

    As for folding phones, they have hit the ground running. With the exception of a few Samsung review units, no big manufacturer of folding phones has suffered from any of the problems that many forecast for them. They have been a massive success, selling far more than even manufacturers anticipated. The only sour (but logical) point has been the brake on sales as a result of price. As expected, that brake is coming off fast as new players release phones and each new generation reduces the overhead costs resulting from development. A lot of folding phones have been limited to China but that is changing now. 

    Apple has been in the same situation with less than stellar results. Even the original iPhone was an extremely expensive and limited device. Mac OS X was in no way ready for prime time on release. The first MacBook Air overhead easily. The first MacBook shipped underpowered and underported. The butterfly keyboard had design issues. The cylinder Mac Pro also had design related problems. The original iMac one button mouse was an exercise in stubbornness. As was not moving to larger phone screens. As was not moving to 'sticky' menus. As was sticking with a 5W charger for 10 years. As was front mounted ports. As was USB 2. The TouchBar is no more. Force Touch is no more. 

    I'm sure you get what I'm saying. Apple has a long history of not getting things right and for many reasons. 'Waiting' or 'being first' is irrelevant except in some very limited cases. 

    If we look at the smartphone market over the last 6 years Apple has basically been playing catch up to key features on Android devices. 

    In a punch for punch trade off of features, Apple wasn't able to push everything that Android was bringing to market into a few iPhone models. It was always going to be on the back foot in that regard but Apple could drip feed those features to users as it basically has a captive (locked in audience) so iPhone users had to sit back and wait for features to arrive. The one big technical exception was the CPU situation (along with the video area maybe) but can you remember the last time you heard an Android user say they needed more raw speed on their flagship phones or better video? You'd have to go back many, many years to find an example. Not even iPhone users with old iPhones were needing more raw speed. What they really needed with regards to Android phones were things Apple was dragging its feet on. Wireless charging, reverse wireless charging, fast wired charging, low noise photography, low light photography, high screen refresh rates. More biometric options. Although no Android manufacturer has suffered in the slightest from not adopting 3D sensing for things like authentication, Apple even dragged its feet on that. Huawei made it far more useful out the gate (horizontal unlock, 3D small object modeling, eyes on AOD, better privacy with the phone unlocked...). Ah! and the second iteration reduced the notch size. Apple didn't. Ditto bezels. 

    Is there any valid reason for Apple not bringing horizontal unlock to the iPhone until now? Nope. It simply decided to hold it back. It should have been there right from the beginning. It's a classic example of why what you are claiming is incorrect. Apple didn't see a need for it in the development phase. How is that possible? But now they do? What changed? 

    The reality is that everyone gets things right sometimes and everyone gets things wrong sometimes. Apple is no different. 

    The satellite functionality was ready, yes on an 'Android' phone a full year before it appeared on iPhone. The problem was that that phone was subjected to sanctions and couldn't be brought to market on schedule due to geopolitical issues but even a year late it still brought competitive flagship class features to market ahead of others. And for the technical challenges (and they were) that Apple spoke of with regards to getting a signal from a smartphone up into a low orbit satellite, imagine what it must have entailed getting it into a high orbit satellite. 



    Android fan boy much lol…

    Apple has the Fastest Mobile Processor and it now has Satellite SOS that saves lives

    ao Android can side load. Dirty European or Chinese software… and? So? Lol
    That's a very empty viewpoint. 

    I use iOS, macOS, Android and HarmonyOS. 

    On a phone I'd take the particular Android I use over iOS any day. It's night and day. Note, I have never used Windows as a daily desktop driver. 

    Speed? How are you definíng that? 

    I ask because in many everyday situations (probably most over the last few years), Android flagships have actually been 'faster'. That is due to high screen refresh rates, faster LTE, faster wifi, faster charging, faster and more stable Bluetooth, faster app opening, AI (Huawei had a system where it would track your finger over the screen before you actually touched it and would start preparing to activate that element before you confirmed it). 

    You see, 'faster' only means 'faster' if it's actually noticeable. Forget Android phones for a second. Do you see users with older macs/iPhones craving for that 'faster' processing speed of the latest devices? Not at all. The vast majority are perfectly happy and not seeing a need for more raw processing speed. There is a reason for that. 

    Now, if you talked about 'transport' speed (storage, Wi-Fi, LTE) then that might be a different story but there you have a 10 year old Lightning connection on iPhones so that is a data transport albatross for wired connections on iPhones so the speed for that has to be wireless. But where was Apple on that front until relatively recently? Stuck with Intel modems until they saw the 5G boat (on Android phones!) sailing far into the distance and had to backtrack on their fight with Qualcomm, 'settle' at lightning speed (ha! No! Not that Lightning) just to scramble to get an older, slower, Qualcomm 5G modem bolted onto an iPhone. A true YIKES! moment. Yes and Huawei famously said its Wi-Fi 5 was faster than Apple’s Wi-Fi 6 and then Huawei brought WiFi 6+ to its ecosystem taking advantage of its own 5G technologies. 

    But as you say, those iPhones were 'faster'. Except very few people actually saw that faster speed because 'instant' is 'instant' even when an iPhone's instant is technically faster. 

    Satellite connectivity is clearly a niche option right now but that is where flagship phones shine. Can you remember when people said iPhones didn't need two cameras (because that is what Android phones had) . People changed their tune when dual cameras eventually arrived on iPhones, but in true Apple fashion, only on the most expensive models first. History repeated itself when it came to tri-cameras. Would you like to speak of periscope lenses? No one would accept going back to single lens cameras now. Those who said dual cameras were unnecessary were just plain wrong. 

    And, the EU aside, USB-C would have come to iPhone at some point. Late, but it would have got there eventually. Phased in? Only on the more expensive models? I wouldn't doubt that except the EU has probably killed that option to drip feed users. 

    For me, a flagship can justify niche features just on price until they wind their way down to lower end devices. There is nothing wrong with that and if for some freak reason you actually need to use the function, you'll be very, very grateful you had it. 

    Fanboy? 

    Hardly, but I know enough about these things to have a balanced opinion. 



    I posted what I expect is the supporting link for your document;

    https://www.phonearena.com/news/rumors-that-huawei-will-use-kirin-chips-in-2023-false_id143658

    In 2020, exactly one year to the day that the U.S. put Huawei on the Entity List the U.S. Commerce Department issued a new export rule change dealing with chips. The new rule prevents foundries using American technology from shipping chips to Huawei. Even the latter's own Kirin chips, designed by the company's HiSilicon semiconductor unit, could not be shipped to the company because of the new export rules.

    Qualcomm received permission from the U.S. to ship 4G versions of its latest chipset to Huawei


    Eventually, Huawei went through its inventory of Kirin chips and the U.S. gave Qualcomm permission to supply the company with its powerful Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1 chips, but these are made to work with 4G signals. Yes, the recently released Mate 50 and Mate 50 Pro are powered with these chipsets which means no 5G connectivity, but there is a way around this. A company called Soyealink is selling a case for the Mate 50 series that will allow the phones to connect to 5G signals.

    Sad
    Well, it is sad that the US government decided it couldn't compete on 5G and saw China catching up with it on many tech fronts and thought the only course of action was to destroy Huawei and the global supply chain. A word actually used by US senators. Yes. Sad. 

    A foolish move that is backfiring. 

    You are quoting a rumor. If it's rumours you want they are a dime a dozen. In fact that rumour was to cancel out another which said the complete opposite. 

    If you want to read between the official lines though, it is quite simple, and so far at least, everything official has basically ended up being reality. 

    Here’s a quick recap: 

    2019. Initial sanctions, tightened in later years. 

    2019. Huawei said it would re-jig its supply lines to eliminate US technology. Supposedly to take two to three years. 

    2019-present. Billions lost for US semiconductor interests with no end in sight. 11 billion dollars from Huawei alone in just one year (2019/20). Billions more when sanctions were later widened. Those are billions lost for future R&D in the US semiconductor industry. 

    2019-present. Huawei has invested in companies involved in every single step of the semiconductor supply chain. Bar none and none of them are US companies.

    2020. Huawei reveals a new method for chip packaging and explicitly named chip stacking of older nodes as a stop gap solution. 

    2021. Huawei filed a patent for EUV lithography. It is pending. 

    2021. Huawei teased a new chip for 2022 and said the company would 'return to its throne' in 2023. 

    2023. January. Huawei rotating CEO said that US sanctions are the 'new normal' and it is business as usual from now on for the company. Any problems would come from the wider economic situation and not sanctions. 

    2023. A recent teardown of a Huawei 5G base station revealed just 1% of US technology. 

    How is that looking so far? 

    As for 5G on SOCs for mobile phones, the problem was with three RF components that were being sourced from US companies. 

    It is thought that that issue has now been resolved via a Chinese supplier. 

    It is all but confirmed that this year will see the return to the two flagship release cycle. 

    For MWC2023 Huawei has booked an absolutely gigantic amount of floorspace. The entire surface area of Fira Hall 1 in Barcelona. 

    Given the situation, I'd say they've done better than you claimed they would. Much better. 

    The satellite capability was for the Mate 50 which should have been released in September 2021 but got delayed because of sanctions. 

    The technical challenges for Huawei in connecting to a high orbit satellite, in spite of the circumstances, were anything but minor and just go to show how far Apple has to go with its RF development (in spite of having bought in knowhow and patents from Intel).

    Qualcomm also has best in class RF development capacity so I'd say they are well placed to provide an in-house solution in short order. 




    edited January 2023 ctt_zh
  • Reply 16 of 19
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,250member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Madbum said:
    avon b7 said:
    danox said:
    avon b7 said:
    "Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite."

    Technically speaking, Apple didn't beat everyone.

    Huawei beat them to it with a phone (Mate 50 Pro) that had been delayed by a year due to sanctions. It was originally scheduled for release in September 2021. It was also technically more challenging as the Huawei phone connects to high orbit satellites. 


    Samsung beat Apple to a folding phone but so what being first doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t work very well, speaking of which I think that Microsoft and one of their clone makers, beat Apple to a tablet (publicly shown prototype @ CES) 10 years before the iPad, what happened with that, it’s not being first it’s who can design/engineer something that actually works something that most people can use without a propeller head.

    The failure of Xerox research labs is also another example of that, they had the entire future (or at least a big part of it) of computing in their research labs, but management didn’t want to step on their existing copying empire, so therefore, nothing got done in the end at least by Xerox.
    My point was that the claim made wasn't technically correct. Albeit minor point.

    As for folding phones, they have hit the ground running. With the exception of a few Samsung review units, no big manufacturer of folding phones has suffered from any of the problems that many forecast for them. They have been a massive success, selling far more than even manufacturers anticipated. The only sour (but logical) point has been the brake on sales as a result of price. As expected, that brake is coming off fast as new players release phones and each new generation reduces the overhead costs resulting from development. A lot of folding phones have been limited to China but that is changing now. 

    Apple has been in the same situation with less than stellar results. Even the original iPhone was an extremely expensive and limited device. Mac OS X was in no way ready for prime time on release. The first MacBook Air overhead easily. The first MacBook shipped underpowered and underported. The butterfly keyboard had design issues. The cylinder Mac Pro also had design related problems. The original iMac one button mouse was an exercise in stubbornness. As was not moving to larger phone screens. As was not moving to 'sticky' menus. As was sticking with a 5W charger for 10 years. As was front mounted ports. As was USB 2. The TouchBar is no more. Force Touch is no more. 

    I'm sure you get what I'm saying. Apple has a long history of not getting things right and for many reasons. 'Waiting' or 'being first' is irrelevant except in some very limited cases. 

    If we look at the smartphone market over the last 6 years Apple has basically been playing catch up to key features on Android devices. 

    In a punch for punch trade off of features, Apple wasn't able to push everything that Android was bringing to market into a few iPhone models. It was always going to be on the back foot in that regard but Apple could drip feed those features to users as it basically has a captive (locked in audience) so iPhone users had to sit back and wait for features to arrive. The one big technical exception was the CPU situation (along with the video area maybe) but can you remember the last time you heard an Android user say they needed more raw speed on their flagship phones or better video? You'd have to go back many, many years to find an example. Not even iPhone users with old iPhones were needing more raw speed. What they really needed with regards to Android phones were things Apple was dragging its feet on. Wireless charging, reverse wireless charging, fast wired charging, low noise photography, low light photography, high screen refresh rates. More biometric options. Although no Android manufacturer has suffered in the slightest from not adopting 3D sensing for things like authentication, Apple even dragged its feet on that. Huawei made it far more useful out the gate (horizontal unlock, 3D small object modeling, eyes on AOD, better privacy with the phone unlocked...). Ah! and the second iteration reduced the notch size. Apple didn't. Ditto bezels. 

    Is there any valid reason for Apple not bringing horizontal unlock to the iPhone until now? Nope. It simply decided to hold it back. It should have been there right from the beginning. It's a classic example of why what you are claiming is incorrect. Apple didn't see a need for it in the development phase. How is that possible? But now they do? What changed? 

    The reality is that everyone gets things right sometimes and everyone gets things wrong sometimes. Apple is no different. 

    The satellite functionality was ready, yes on an 'Android' phone a full year before it appeared on iPhone. The problem was that that phone was subjected to sanctions and couldn't be brought to market on schedule due to geopolitical issues but even a year late it still brought competitive flagship class features to market ahead of others. And for the technical challenges (and they were) that Apple spoke of with regards to getting a signal from a smartphone up into a low orbit satellite, imagine what it must have entailed getting it into a high orbit satellite. 



    Android fan boy much lol…

    Apple has the Fastest Mobile Processor and it now has Satellite SOS that saves lives

    ao Android can side load. Dirty European or Chinese software… and? So? Lol
    That's a very empty viewpoint. 

    I use iOS, macOS, Android and HarmonyOS. 

    On a phone I'd take the particular Android I use over iOS any day. It's night and day. Note, I have never used Windows as a daily desktop driver. 

    Speed? How are you definíng that? 

    I ask because in many everyday situations (probably most over the last few years), Android flagships have actually been 'faster'. That is due to high screen refresh rates, faster LTE, faster wifi, faster charging, faster and more stable Bluetooth, faster app opening, AI (Huawei had a system where it would track your finger over the screen before you actually touched it and would start preparing to activate that element before you confirmed it). 

    You see, 'faster' only means 'faster' if it's actually noticeable. Forget Android phones for a second. Do you see users with older macs/iPhones craving for that 'faster' processing speed of the latest devices? Not at all. The vast majority are perfectly happy and not seeing a need for more raw processing speed. There is a reason for that. 

    Now, if you talked about 'transport' speed (storage, Wi-Fi, LTE) then that might be a different story but there you have a 10 year old Lightning connection on iPhones so that is a data transport albatross for wired connections on iPhones so the speed for that has to be wireless. But where was Apple on that front until relatively recently? Stuck with Intel modems until they saw the 5G boat (on Android phones!) sailing far into the distance and had to backtrack on their fight with Qualcomm, 'settle' at lightning speed (ha! No! Not that Lightning) just to scramble to get an older, slower, Qualcomm 5G modem bolted onto an iPhone. A true YIKES! moment. Yes and Huawei famously said its Wi-Fi 5 was faster than Apple’s Wi-Fi 6 and then Huawei brought WiFi 6+ to its ecosystem taking advantage of its own 5G technologies. 

    But as you say, those iPhones were 'faster'. Except very few people actually saw that faster speed because 'instant' is 'instant' even when an iPhone's instant is technically faster. 

    Satellite connectivity is clearly a niche option right now but that is where flagship phones shine. Can you remember when people said iPhones didn't need two cameras (because that is what Android phones had) . People changed their tune when dual cameras eventually arrived on iPhones, but in true Apple fashion, only on the most expensive models first. History repeated itself when it came to tri-cameras. Would you like to speak of periscope lenses? No one would accept going back to single lens cameras now. Those who said dual cameras were unnecessary were just plain wrong. 

    And, the EU aside, USB-C would have come to iPhone at some point. Late, but it would have got there eventually. Phased in? Only on the more expensive models? I wouldn't doubt that except the EU has probably killed that option to drip feed users. 

    For me, a flagship can justify niche features just on price until they wind their way down to lower end devices. There is nothing wrong with that and if for some freak reason you actually need to use the function, you'll be very, very grateful you had it. 

    Fanboy? 

    Hardly, but I know enough about these things to have a balanced opinion. 



    I posted what I expect is the supporting link for your document;

    https://www.phonearena.com/news/rumors-that-huawei-will-use-kirin-chips-in-2023-false_id143658

    In 2020, exactly one year to the day that the U.S. put Huawei on the Entity List the U.S. Commerce Department issued a new export rule change dealing with chips. The new rule prevents foundries using American technology from shipping chips to Huawei. Even the latter's own Kirin chips, designed by the company's HiSilicon semiconductor unit, could not be shipped to the company because of the new export rules.

    Qualcomm received permission from the U.S. to ship 4G versions of its latest chipset to Huawei


    Eventually, Huawei went through its inventory of Kirin chips and the U.S. gave Qualcomm permission to supply the company with its powerful Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1 chips, but these are made to work with 4G signals. Yes, the recently released Mate 50 and Mate 50 Pro are powered with these chipsets which means no 5G connectivity, but there is a way around this. A company called Soyealink is selling a case for the Mate 50 series that will allow the phones to connect to 5G signals.

    Sad
    Well, it is sad that the US government decided it couldn't compete on 5G and saw China catching up with it on many tech fronts and thought the only course of action was to destroy Huawei and the global supply chain. A word actually used by US senators. Yes. Sad. 

    A foolish move that is backfiring. 

    You are quoting a rumor. If it's rumours you want they are a dime a dozen. In fact that rumour was to cancel out another which said the complete opposite. 

    If you want to read between the official lines though, it is quite simple, and so far at least, everything official has basically ended up being reality. 

    Here’s a quick recap: 

    2019. Initial sanctions, tightened in later years. 

    2019. Huawei said it would re-jig its supply lines to eliminate US technology. Supposedly to take two to three years. 

    2019-present. Billions lost for US semiconductor interests with no end in sight. 11 billion dollars from Huawei alone in just one year (2019/20). Billions more when sanctions were later widened. Those are billions lost for future R&D in the US semiconductor industry. 

    2019-present. Huawei has invested in companies involved in every single step of the semiconductor supply chain. Bar none and none of them are US companies.

    2020. Huawei reveals a new method for chip packaging and explicitly named chip stacking of older nodes as a stop gap solution. 

    2021. Huawei filed a patent for EUV lithography. It is pending. 

    2021. Huawei teased a new chip for 2022 and said the company would 'return to its throne' in 2023. 

    2023. January. Huawei rotating CEO said that US sanctions are the 'new normal' and it is business as usual from now on for the company. Any problems would come from the wider economic situation and not sanctions. 

    2023. A recent teardown of a Huawei 5G base station revealed just 1% of US technology. 

    How is that looking so far? 

    As for 5G on SOCs for mobile phones, the problem was with three RF components that were being sourced from US companies. 

    It is thought that that issue has now been resolved via a Chinese supplier. 

    It is all but confirmed that this year will see the return to the two flagship release cycle. 

    For MWC2023 Huawei has booked an absolutely gigantic amount of floorspace. The entire surface area of Fira Hall 1 in Barcelona. 

    Given the situation, I'd say they've done better than you claimed they would. Much better. 

    The satellite capability was for the Mate 50 which should have been released in September 2021 but got delayed because of sanctions. 

    The technical challenges for Huawei in connecting to a high orbit satellite, in spite of the circumstances, were anything but minor and just go to show how far Apple has to go with its RF development (in spite of having bought in knowhow and patents from Intel).

    Qualcomm also has best in class RF development capacity so I'd say they are well placed to provide an in-house solution in short order. 




    Cool story, but Huawei telecom is basically dead in the EU and the West for the same reason that they don't have access to leading edge processors for their phones; China is a aggressive power that will weaponize Western semiconductor technology, and the EU is waking up, finally, to infrastructure from a known adversary.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/us-china-huawei-europe-market/

    Huawei is giving up on Europe.

    The Chinese telecoms giant is pushing out its pedigreed Western lobbyists, retrenching its European operations and putting its ambitions for global leadership on ice.

    The reasons for doing this have little to do with the company’s commercial potential — Huawei is still able to offer cutting-edge technology at lower costs than its competitors — and everything to do with politics, according to interviews with more than 20 current and former staff and strategic advisers to the company.

    Pressed by the United States and increasingly shunned on a Continent it once considered its most strategic overseas market, Huawei is pivoting back toward the Chinese market, focusing its remaining European attention on the few countries — Germany and Spain, but also Hungary — still willing to play host to a company widely viewed in the West as a security risk.

    “It’s no longer a company floating on globalization,” said one Huawei official. “It’s a company saving its ass on the domestic market.” Like most of the other Huawei employees interviewed for this article, the official spoke on the condition of anonymity to freely describe the company’s travails.

    Huawei’s predicament was summed up by the company’s founder Ren Zhengfei in a speech to executives at the company’s Shenzhen headquarters in July. He laid out the trifecta of challenges the company has faced over the last three years: hostility from Washington; disruptions from the coronavirus pandemic; and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, which upended global supply chains and heightened European concerns about over-dependence on countries like China.

    “The environment we faced in 2019 was different from the one we face today,” Ren said in his speech, which wasn’t made public but was seen by POLITICO. “Don’t assume that we will have a brighter future.”

    “We previously had an ideal for globalization striving to serve all humanity,” he added. “What is our ideal today? Survival!”


    Meanwhile, both the U.S. and the EU are seeing new fab construction, while China's semiconductor efforts have collapsed.

    A very nice FU to Xi for his authoritarianism, human rights violations, threats to Taiwan, and frankly, rampant mercantilism that has weakened Western supply chains.

    edited January 2023 elijahg
  • Reply 17 of 19
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,529member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Madbum said:
    avon b7 said:
    danox said:
    avon b7 said:
    "Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite."

    Technically speaking, Apple didn't beat everyone.

    Huawei beat them to it with a phone (Mate 50 Pro) that had been delayed by a year due to sanctions. It was originally scheduled for release in September 2021. It was also technically more challenging as the Huawei phone connects to high orbit satellites. 


    Samsung beat Apple to a folding phone but so what being first doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t work very well, speaking of which I think that Microsoft and one of their clone makers, beat Apple to a tablet (publicly shown prototype @ CES) 10 years before the iPad, what happened with that, it’s not being first it’s who can design/engineer something that actually works something that most people can use without a propeller head.

    The failure of Xerox research labs is also another example of that, they had the entire future (or at least a big part of it) of computing in their research labs, but management didn’t want to step on their existing copying empire, so therefore, nothing got done in the end at least by Xerox.
    My point was that the claim made wasn't technically correct. Albeit minor point.

    As for folding phones, they have hit the ground running. With the exception of a few Samsung review units, no big manufacturer of folding phones has suffered from any of the problems that many forecast for them. They have been a massive success, selling far more than even manufacturers anticipated. The only sour (but logical) point has been the brake on sales as a result of price. As expected, that brake is coming off fast as new players release phones and each new generation reduces the overhead costs resulting from development. A lot of folding phones have been limited to China but that is changing now. 

    Apple has been in the same situation with less than stellar results. Even the original iPhone was an extremely expensive and limited device. Mac OS X was in no way ready for prime time on release. The first MacBook Air overhead easily. The first MacBook shipped underpowered and underported. The butterfly keyboard had design issues. The cylinder Mac Pro also had design related problems. The original iMac one button mouse was an exercise in stubbornness. As was not moving to larger phone screens. As was not moving to 'sticky' menus. As was sticking with a 5W charger for 10 years. As was front mounted ports. As was USB 2. The TouchBar is no more. Force Touch is no more. 

    I'm sure you get what I'm saying. Apple has a long history of not getting things right and for many reasons. 'Waiting' or 'being first' is irrelevant except in some very limited cases. 

    If we look at the smartphone market over the last 6 years Apple has basically been playing catch up to key features on Android devices. 

    In a punch for punch trade off of features, Apple wasn't able to push everything that Android was bringing to market into a few iPhone models. It was always going to be on the back foot in that regard but Apple could drip feed those features to users as it basically has a captive (locked in audience) so iPhone users had to sit back and wait for features to arrive. The one big technical exception was the CPU situation (along with the video area maybe) but can you remember the last time you heard an Android user say they needed more raw speed on their flagship phones or better video? You'd have to go back many, many years to find an example. Not even iPhone users with old iPhones were needing more raw speed. What they really needed with regards to Android phones were things Apple was dragging its feet on. Wireless charging, reverse wireless charging, fast wired charging, low noise photography, low light photography, high screen refresh rates. More biometric options. Although no Android manufacturer has suffered in the slightest from not adopting 3D sensing for things like authentication, Apple even dragged its feet on that. Huawei made it far more useful out the gate (horizontal unlock, 3D small object modeling, eyes on AOD, better privacy with the phone unlocked...). Ah! and the second iteration reduced the notch size. Apple didn't. Ditto bezels. 

    Is there any valid reason for Apple not bringing horizontal unlock to the iPhone until now? Nope. It simply decided to hold it back. It should have been there right from the beginning. It's a classic example of why what you are claiming is incorrect. Apple didn't see a need for it in the development phase. How is that possible? But now they do? What changed? 

    The reality is that everyone gets things right sometimes and everyone gets things wrong sometimes. Apple is no different. 

    The satellite functionality was ready, yes on an 'Android' phone a full year before it appeared on iPhone. The problem was that that phone was subjected to sanctions and couldn't be brought to market on schedule due to geopolitical issues but even a year late it still brought competitive flagship class features to market ahead of others. And for the technical challenges (and they were) that Apple spoke of with regards to getting a signal from a smartphone up into a low orbit satellite, imagine what it must have entailed getting it into a high orbit satellite. 



    Android fan boy much lol…

    Apple has the Fastest Mobile Processor and it now has Satellite SOS that saves lives

    ao Android can side load. Dirty European or Chinese software… and? So? Lol
    That's a very empty viewpoint. 

    I use iOS, macOS, Android and HarmonyOS. 

    On a phone I'd take the particular Android I use over iOS any day. It's night and day. Note, I have never used Windows as a daily desktop driver. 

    Speed? How are you definíng that? 

    I ask because in many everyday situations (probably most over the last few years), Android flagships have actually been 'faster'. That is due to high screen refresh rates, faster LTE, faster wifi, faster charging, faster and more stable Bluetooth, faster app opening, AI (Huawei had a system where it would track your finger over the screen before you actually touched it and would start preparing to activate that element before you confirmed it). 

    You see, 'faster' only means 'faster' if it's actually noticeable. Forget Android phones for a second. Do you see users with older macs/iPhones craving for that 'faster' processing speed of the latest devices? Not at all. The vast majority are perfectly happy and not seeing a need for more raw processing speed. There is a reason for that. 

    Now, if you talked about 'transport' speed (storage, Wi-Fi, LTE) then that might be a different story but there you have a 10 year old Lightning connection on iPhones so that is a data transport albatross for wired connections on iPhones so the speed for that has to be wireless. But where was Apple on that front until relatively recently? Stuck with Intel modems until they saw the 5G boat (on Android phones!) sailing far into the distance and had to backtrack on their fight with Qualcomm, 'settle' at lightning speed (ha! No! Not that Lightning) just to scramble to get an older, slower, Qualcomm 5G modem bolted onto an iPhone. A true YIKES! moment. Yes and Huawei famously said its Wi-Fi 5 was faster than Apple’s Wi-Fi 6 and then Huawei brought WiFi 6+ to its ecosystem taking advantage of its own 5G technologies. 

    But as you say, those iPhones were 'faster'. Except very few people actually saw that faster speed because 'instant' is 'instant' even when an iPhone's instant is technically faster. 

    Satellite connectivity is clearly a niche option right now but that is where flagship phones shine. Can you remember when people said iPhones didn't need two cameras (because that is what Android phones had) . People changed their tune when dual cameras eventually arrived on iPhones, but in true Apple fashion, only on the most expensive models first. History repeated itself when it came to tri-cameras. Would you like to speak of periscope lenses? No one would accept going back to single lens cameras now. Those who said dual cameras were unnecessary were just plain wrong. 

    And, the EU aside, USB-C would have come to iPhone at some point. Late, but it would have got there eventually. Phased in? Only on the more expensive models? I wouldn't doubt that except the EU has probably killed that option to drip feed users. 

    For me, a flagship can justify niche features just on price until they wind their way down to lower end devices. There is nothing wrong with that and if for some freak reason you actually need to use the function, you'll be very, very grateful you had it. 

    Fanboy? 

    Hardly, but I know enough about these things to have a balanced opinion. 



    I posted what I expect is the supporting link for your document;

    https://www.phonearena.com/news/rumors-that-huawei-will-use-kirin-chips-in-2023-false_id143658

    In 2020, exactly one year to the day that the U.S. put Huawei on the Entity List the U.S. Commerce Department issued a new export rule change dealing with chips. The new rule prevents foundries using American technology from shipping chips to Huawei. Even the latter's own Kirin chips, designed by the company's HiSilicon semiconductor unit, could not be shipped to the company because of the new export rules.

    Qualcomm received permission from the U.S. to ship 4G versions of its latest chipset to Huawei


    Eventually, Huawei went through its inventory of Kirin chips and the U.S. gave Qualcomm permission to supply the company with its powerful Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1 chips, but these are made to work with 4G signals. Yes, the recently released Mate 50 and Mate 50 Pro are powered with these chipsets which means no 5G connectivity, but there is a way around this. A company called Soyealink is selling a case for the Mate 50 series that will allow the phones to connect to 5G signals.

    Sad
    Well, it is sad that the US government decided it couldn't compete on 5G and saw China catching up with it on many tech fronts and thought the only course of action was to destroy Huawei and the global supply chain. A word actually used by US senators. Yes. Sad. 

    A foolish move that is backfiring. 

    You are quoting a rumor. If it's rumours you want they are a dime a dozen. In fact that rumour was to cancel out another which said the complete opposite. 

    If you want to read between the official lines though, it is quite simple, and so far at least, everything official has basically ended up being reality. 

    Here’s a quick recap: 

    2019. Initial sanctions, tightened in later years. 

    2019. Huawei said it would re-jig its supply lines to eliminate US technology. Supposedly to take two to three years. 

    2019-present. Billions lost for US semiconductor interests with no end in sight. 11 billion dollars from Huawei alone in just one year (2019/20). Billions more when sanctions were later widened. Those are billions lost for future R&D in the US semiconductor industry. 

    2019-present. Huawei has invested in companies involved in every single step of the semiconductor supply chain. Bar none and none of them are US companies.

    2020. Huawei reveals a new method for chip packaging and explicitly named chip stacking of older nodes as a stop gap solution. 

    2021. Huawei filed a patent for EUV lithography. It is pending. 

    2021. Huawei teased a new chip for 2022 and said the company would 'return to its throne' in 2023. 

    2023. January. Huawei rotating CEO said that US sanctions are the 'new normal' and it is business as usual from now on for the company. Any problems would come from the wider economic situation and not sanctions. 

    2023. A recent teardown of a Huawei 5G base station revealed just 1% of US technology. 

    How is that looking so far? 

    As for 5G on SOCs for mobile phones, the problem was with three RF components that were being sourced from US companies. 

    It is thought that that issue has now been resolved via a Chinese supplier. 

    It is all but confirmed that this year will see the return to the two flagship release cycle. 

    For MWC2023 Huawei has booked an absolutely gigantic amount of floorspace. The entire surface area of Fira Hall 1 in Barcelona. 

    Given the situation, I'd say they've done better than you claimed they would. Much better. 

    The satellite capability was for the Mate 50 which should have been released in September 2021 but got delayed because of sanctions. 

    The technical challenges for Huawei in connecting to a high orbit satellite, in spite of the circumstances, were anything but minor and just go to show how far Apple has to go with its RF development (in spite of having bought in knowhow and patents from Intel).

    Qualcomm also has best in class RF development capacity so I'd say they are well placed to provide an in-house solution in short order. 




    Cool story, but Huawei telecom is basically dead in the EU and the West for the same reason that they don't have access to leading edge processors for their phones; China is a aggressive power that will weaponize Western semiconductor technology, and the EU is waking up, finally, to infrastructure from a known adversary.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/us-china-huawei-europe-market/

    Huawei is giving up on Europe.

    The Chinese telecoms giant is pushing out its pedigreed Western lobbyists, retrenching its European operations and putting its ambitions for global leadership on ice.

    The reasons for doing this have little to do with the company’s commercial potential — Huawei is still able to offer cutting-edge technology at lower costs than its competitors — and everything to do with politics, according to interviews with more than 20 current and former staff and strategic advisers to the company.

    Pressed by the United States and increasingly shunned on a Continent it once considered its most strategic overseas market, Huawei is pivoting back toward the Chinese market, focusing its remaining European attention on the few countries — Germany and Spain, but also Hungary — still willing to play host to a company widely viewed in the West as a security risk.

    “It’s no longer a company floating on globalization,” said one Huawei official. “It’s a company saving its ass on the domestic market.” Like most of the other Huawei employees interviewed for this article, the official spoke on the condition of anonymity to freely describe the company’s travails.

    Huawei’s predicament was summed up by the company’s founder Ren Zhengfei in a speech to executives at the company’s Shenzhen headquarters in July. He laid out the trifecta of challenges the company has faced over the last three years: hostility from Washington; disruptions from the coronavirus pandemic; and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, which upended global supply chains and heightened European concerns about over-dependence on countries like China.

    “The environment we faced in 2019 was different from the one we face today,” Ren said in his speech, which wasn’t made public but was seen by POLITICO. “Don’t assume that we will have a brighter future.”

    “We previously had an ideal for globalization striving to serve all humanity,” he added. “What is our ideal today? Survival!”


    Meanwhile, both the U.S. and the EU are seeing new fab construction, while China's semiconductor efforts have collapsed.

    A very nice FU to Xi for his authoritarianism, human rights violations, threats to Taiwan, and frankly, rampant mercantilism that has weakened Western supply chains.

    This thread isn't the place for your wild and wacky 'anonymous' news but Strand (very anti China) released its state of 5G in Europe study just last month and were shocked to see what they found. Look it up. 'Dead' you say? Not yet but business is business and sometimes you have to do whatever is necessary. 

    Anyway, try to stay at least somewhat on topic. 
    ctt_zh
  • Reply 18 of 19
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,250member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Madbum said:
    avon b7 said:
    danox said:
    avon b7 said:
    "Or just possibly, the industry is again simply going wherever Apple leads. Considering that Android phones have so many features before theiPhone does, that seems peculiar -- but Apple did beat everyone to emergency messaging via satellite."

    Technically speaking, Apple didn't beat everyone.

    Huawei beat them to it with a phone (Mate 50 Pro) that had been delayed by a year due to sanctions. It was originally scheduled for release in September 2021. It was also technically more challenging as the Huawei phone connects to high orbit satellites. 


    Samsung beat Apple to a folding phone but so what being first doesn’t mean anything if it doesn’t work very well, speaking of which I think that Microsoft and one of their clone makers, beat Apple to a tablet (publicly shown prototype @ CES) 10 years before the iPad, what happened with that, it’s not being first it’s who can design/engineer something that actually works something that most people can use without a propeller head.

    The failure of Xerox research labs is also another example of that, they had the entire future (or at least a big part of it) of computing in their research labs, but management didn’t want to step on their existing copying empire, so therefore, nothing got done in the end at least by Xerox.
    My point was that the claim made wasn't technically correct. Albeit minor point.

    As for folding phones, they have hit the ground running. With the exception of a few Samsung review units, no big manufacturer of folding phones has suffered from any of the problems that many forecast for them. They have been a massive success, selling far more than even manufacturers anticipated. The only sour (but logical) point has been the brake on sales as a result of price. As expected, that brake is coming off fast as new players release phones and each new generation reduces the overhead costs resulting from development. A lot of folding phones have been limited to China but that is changing now. 

    Apple has been in the same situation with less than stellar results. Even the original iPhone was an extremely expensive and limited device. Mac OS X was in no way ready for prime time on release. The first MacBook Air overhead easily. The first MacBook shipped underpowered and underported. The butterfly keyboard had design issues. The cylinder Mac Pro also had design related problems. The original iMac one button mouse was an exercise in stubbornness. As was not moving to larger phone screens. As was not moving to 'sticky' menus. As was sticking with a 5W charger for 10 years. As was front mounted ports. As was USB 2. The TouchBar is no more. Force Touch is no more. 

    I'm sure you get what I'm saying. Apple has a long history of not getting things right and for many reasons. 'Waiting' or 'being first' is irrelevant except in some very limited cases. 

    If we look at the smartphone market over the last 6 years Apple has basically been playing catch up to key features on Android devices. 

    In a punch for punch trade off of features, Apple wasn't able to push everything that Android was bringing to market into a few iPhone models. It was always going to be on the back foot in that regard but Apple could drip feed those features to users as it basically has a captive (locked in audience) so iPhone users had to sit back and wait for features to arrive. The one big technical exception was the CPU situation (along with the video area maybe) but can you remember the last time you heard an Android user say they needed more raw speed on their flagship phones or better video? You'd have to go back many, many years to find an example. Not even iPhone users with old iPhones were needing more raw speed. What they really needed with regards to Android phones were things Apple was dragging its feet on. Wireless charging, reverse wireless charging, fast wired charging, low noise photography, low light photography, high screen refresh rates. More biometric options. Although no Android manufacturer has suffered in the slightest from not adopting 3D sensing for things like authentication, Apple even dragged its feet on that. Huawei made it far more useful out the gate (horizontal unlock, 3D small object modeling, eyes on AOD, better privacy with the phone unlocked...). Ah! and the second iteration reduced the notch size. Apple didn't. Ditto bezels. 

    Is there any valid reason for Apple not bringing horizontal unlock to the iPhone until now? Nope. It simply decided to hold it back. It should have been there right from the beginning. It's a classic example of why what you are claiming is incorrect. Apple didn't see a need for it in the development phase. How is that possible? But now they do? What changed? 

    The reality is that everyone gets things right sometimes and everyone gets things wrong sometimes. Apple is no different. 

    The satellite functionality was ready, yes on an 'Android' phone a full year before it appeared on iPhone. The problem was that that phone was subjected to sanctions and couldn't be brought to market on schedule due to geopolitical issues but even a year late it still brought competitive flagship class features to market ahead of others. And for the technical challenges (and they were) that Apple spoke of with regards to getting a signal from a smartphone up into a low orbit satellite, imagine what it must have entailed getting it into a high orbit satellite. 



    Android fan boy much lol…

    Apple has the Fastest Mobile Processor and it now has Satellite SOS that saves lives

    ao Android can side load. Dirty European or Chinese software… and? So? Lol
    That's a very empty viewpoint. 

    I use iOS, macOS, Android and HarmonyOS. 

    On a phone I'd take the particular Android I use over iOS any day. It's night and day. Note, I have never used Windows as a daily desktop driver. 

    Speed? How are you definíng that? 

    I ask because in many everyday situations (probably most over the last few years), Android flagships have actually been 'faster'. That is due to high screen refresh rates, faster LTE, faster wifi, faster charging, faster and more stable Bluetooth, faster app opening, AI (Huawei had a system where it would track your finger over the screen before you actually touched it and would start preparing to activate that element before you confirmed it). 

    You see, 'faster' only means 'faster' if it's actually noticeable. Forget Android phones for a second. Do you see users with older macs/iPhones craving for that 'faster' processing speed of the latest devices? Not at all. The vast majority are perfectly happy and not seeing a need for more raw processing speed. There is a reason for that. 

    Now, if you talked about 'transport' speed (storage, Wi-Fi, LTE) then that might be a different story but there you have a 10 year old Lightning connection on iPhones so that is a data transport albatross for wired connections on iPhones so the speed for that has to be wireless. But where was Apple on that front until relatively recently? Stuck with Intel modems until they saw the 5G boat (on Android phones!) sailing far into the distance and had to backtrack on their fight with Qualcomm, 'settle' at lightning speed (ha! No! Not that Lightning) just to scramble to get an older, slower, Qualcomm 5G modem bolted onto an iPhone. A true YIKES! moment. Yes and Huawei famously said its Wi-Fi 5 was faster than Apple’s Wi-Fi 6 and then Huawei brought WiFi 6+ to its ecosystem taking advantage of its own 5G technologies. 

    But as you say, those iPhones were 'faster'. Except very few people actually saw that faster speed because 'instant' is 'instant' even when an iPhone's instant is technically faster. 

    Satellite connectivity is clearly a niche option right now but that is where flagship phones shine. Can you remember when people said iPhones didn't need two cameras (because that is what Android phones had) . People changed their tune when dual cameras eventually arrived on iPhones, but in true Apple fashion, only on the most expensive models first. History repeated itself when it came to tri-cameras. Would you like to speak of periscope lenses? No one would accept going back to single lens cameras now. Those who said dual cameras were unnecessary were just plain wrong. 

    And, the EU aside, USB-C would have come to iPhone at some point. Late, but it would have got there eventually. Phased in? Only on the more expensive models? I wouldn't doubt that except the EU has probably killed that option to drip feed users. 

    For me, a flagship can justify niche features just on price until they wind their way down to lower end devices. There is nothing wrong with that and if for some freak reason you actually need to use the function, you'll be very, very grateful you had it. 

    Fanboy? 

    Hardly, but I know enough about these things to have a balanced opinion. 



    I posted what I expect is the supporting link for your document;

    https://www.phonearena.com/news/rumors-that-huawei-will-use-kirin-chips-in-2023-false_id143658

    In 2020, exactly one year to the day that the U.S. put Huawei on the Entity List the U.S. Commerce Department issued a new export rule change dealing with chips. The new rule prevents foundries using American technology from shipping chips to Huawei. Even the latter's own Kirin chips, designed by the company's HiSilicon semiconductor unit, could not be shipped to the company because of the new export rules.

    Qualcomm received permission from the U.S. to ship 4G versions of its latest chipset to Huawei


    Eventually, Huawei went through its inventory of Kirin chips and the U.S. gave Qualcomm permission to supply the company with its powerful Snapdragon 8+ Gen 1 chips, but these are made to work with 4G signals. Yes, the recently released Mate 50 and Mate 50 Pro are powered with these chipsets which means no 5G connectivity, but there is a way around this. A company called Soyealink is selling a case for the Mate 50 series that will allow the phones to connect to 5G signals.

    Sad
    Well, it is sad that the US government decided it couldn't compete on 5G and saw China catching up with it on many tech fronts and thought the only course of action was to destroy Huawei and the global supply chain. A word actually used by US senators. Yes. Sad. 

    A foolish move that is backfiring. 

    You are quoting a rumor. If it's rumours you want they are a dime a dozen. In fact that rumour was to cancel out another which said the complete opposite. 

    If you want to read between the official lines though, it is quite simple, and so far at least, everything official has basically ended up being reality. 

    Here’s a quick recap: 

    2019. Initial sanctions, tightened in later years. 

    2019. Huawei said it would re-jig its supply lines to eliminate US technology. Supposedly to take two to three years. 

    2019-present. Billions lost for US semiconductor interests with no end in sight. 11 billion dollars from Huawei alone in just one year (2019/20). Billions more when sanctions were later widened. Those are billions lost for future R&D in the US semiconductor industry. 

    2019-present. Huawei has invested in companies involved in every single step of the semiconductor supply chain. Bar none and none of them are US companies.

    2020. Huawei reveals a new method for chip packaging and explicitly named chip stacking of older nodes as a stop gap solution. 

    2021. Huawei filed a patent for EUV lithography. It is pending. 

    2021. Huawei teased a new chip for 2022 and said the company would 'return to its throne' in 2023. 

    2023. January. Huawei rotating CEO said that US sanctions are the 'new normal' and it is business as usual from now on for the company. Any problems would come from the wider economic situation and not sanctions. 

    2023. A recent teardown of a Huawei 5G base station revealed just 1% of US technology. 

    How is that looking so far? 

    As for 5G on SOCs for mobile phones, the problem was with three RF components that were being sourced from US companies. 

    It is thought that that issue has now been resolved via a Chinese supplier. 

    It is all but confirmed that this year will see the return to the two flagship release cycle. 

    For MWC2023 Huawei has booked an absolutely gigantic amount of floorspace. The entire surface area of Fira Hall 1 in Barcelona. 

    Given the situation, I'd say they've done better than you claimed they would. Much better. 

    The satellite capability was for the Mate 50 which should have been released in September 2021 but got delayed because of sanctions. 

    The technical challenges for Huawei in connecting to a high orbit satellite, in spite of the circumstances, were anything but minor and just go to show how far Apple has to go with its RF development (in spite of having bought in knowhow and patents from Intel).

    Qualcomm also has best in class RF development capacity so I'd say they are well placed to provide an in-house solution in short order. 




    Cool story, but Huawei telecom is basically dead in the EU and the West for the same reason that they don't have access to leading edge processors for their phones; China is a aggressive power that will weaponize Western semiconductor technology, and the EU is waking up, finally, to infrastructure from a known adversary.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/us-china-huawei-europe-market/

    Huawei is giving up on Europe.

    The Chinese telecoms giant is pushing out its pedigreed Western lobbyists, retrenching its European operations and putting its ambitions for global leadership on ice.

    The reasons for doing this have little to do with the company’s commercial potential — Huawei is still able to offer cutting-edge technology at lower costs than its competitors — and everything to do with politics, according to interviews with more than 20 current and former staff and strategic advisers to the company.

    Pressed by the United States and increasingly shunned on a Continent it once considered its most strategic overseas market, Huawei is pivoting back toward the Chinese market, focusing its remaining European attention on the few countries — Germany and Spain, but also Hungary — still willing to play host to a company widely viewed in the West as a security risk.

    “It’s no longer a company floating on globalization,” said one Huawei official. “It’s a company saving its ass on the domestic market.” Like most of the other Huawei employees interviewed for this article, the official spoke on the condition of anonymity to freely describe the company’s travails.

    Huawei’s predicament was summed up by the company’s founder Ren Zhengfei in a speech to executives at the company’s Shenzhen headquarters in July. He laid out the trifecta of challenges the company has faced over the last three years: hostility from Washington; disruptions from the coronavirus pandemic; and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, which upended global supply chains and heightened European concerns about over-dependence on countries like China.

    “The environment we faced in 2019 was different from the one we face today,” Ren said in his speech, which wasn’t made public but was seen by POLITICO. “Don’t assume that we will have a brighter future.”

    “We previously had an ideal for globalization striving to serve all humanity,” he added. “What is our ideal today? Survival!”


    Meanwhile, both the U.S. and the EU are seeing new fab construction, while China's semiconductor efforts have collapsed.

    A very nice FU to Xi for his authoritarianism, human rights violations, threats to Taiwan, and frankly, rampant mercantilism that has weakened Western supply chains.

    This thread isn't the place for your wild and wacky 'anonymous' news but Strand (very anti China) released its state of 5G in Europe study just last month and were shocked to see what they found. Look it up. 'Dead' you say? Not yet but business is business and sometimes you have to do whatever is necessary. 

    Anyway, try to stay at least somewhat on topic. 
    LOL!

    You were the one that redefined the topic, pal.

    Your source, Strand, doesn't seem to be very sympathetic to Huawei use, and for the record, describes Huawei as "owned and affiliated with the Chinese Government", something that I have been noting since you arrived here at AI.

    https://techblog.comsoc.org/2022/12/17/1068759/

    • There is little transparency about the amount, type, location, and share of 4G and 5G Chinese equipment in European networks.
    • In 8 of 31 countries, more than 50% of the 5G RAN equipment comes from Chinese vendors. In 2020, it was 16 of 31 countries in which the 4G RAN equipment came from Chinese vendors.
    • In one country, 100% of the 5G RAN comes from Chinese vendors. In 2020 there were 3 European countries with 100% 4G RAN equipment from Chinese vendors.
    • Only 11 of 31 European countries can offer their users access to clean, non-Chinese networks.
    • 41% of the mobile subscribers in Europe have access to 5G RAN from Chinese vendors. In 2020, 51% of European mobile subscribers had access to 4G RAN from Chinese vendors.
    • The large European countries–Germany, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Austria, and Spain–purchase significant amounts of 5G equipment from Chinese vendors.
    • Operators like Telenor and Telia in Norway, TDC in Denmark, 3 in Denmark and Sweden, T-Mobile Nederland’s, and Proximus in Belgium have switched out Chinese suppliers. None of those operators report increased networks cost or delay in 5G rollout.
    • The data suggests that Germany appears not to take the security threat of China seriously. Nord Stream 2 was Germany’s debacle oil energy supplies from Russia; it appears that Germany sets up a similar scenario in the communications domain with Huawei and ZTE.
    • As Germany accounts for 25% of European mobile customers, the German government’s lax approach to communications infrastructure creates a risk for Germany and all people who interconnect with German networks.
    • Germany together with Italy, Poland, and Austria, comprise 50% of European mobile customers. These countries are heavily dependent on Chinese equipment, creating risk for their own nations and others which use their networks.
    • In 2020, 57% of Germany’s 4G RAN came from Chinese vendors. In 2022, 59% of the 5G RAN in Germany comes from Chinese vendors.
    • Huawei enjoys a higher market share in Berlin than in Beijing where it shares the market with ZTE and other vendors.
    • US General Darryl A. Williams serves as the commanding general of the United States Army Europe and Africa (based in Wiesbaden, German) and commander of the Allied Land Command. He oversees more than 20,000 staff. Unwittingly when he uses a commercial mobile phone, the traffic is sent through a network built with Chinese equipment. Similarly when American military use their personal devices, they engage on a Chinese network at risk for intrusion.

    Strand Consult’s report delivers detailed information about Chinese and non-Chinese network equipment in Europe at country level. The report highlights of the importance of the EU’s 5G toolbox and provides recommendations to improve its implementation. The toolbox applies to most of Europe’s 102 mobile operators across 31 countries serving some 673 million mobile customers. The report also provides valuable economic context to understand the market for RAN equipment.

    The focus on 5G and 4G RAN reflects the shift of the security debate. There is consensus across most countries outside China that equipment provided by vendors owned and affiliated with the Chinese government and military poses unacceptable risk for the security and integrity of the core of the network. The discussion has evolved to whether and to what degree should such vendors be allowed to supply the RAN.

    Dead, as in only a matter of time before Huawei is replaced with secure infrastructure.

    Yeah, Germany and Spain are holding on as long as possible to Huawei. Good luck with that.
  • Reply 19 of 19
    wood1208wood1208 Posts: 2,902member
    COST !!! Until cost for regular use is not within reach of most, such two way satellite messaging is for emergency purpose.
    tmay
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