Spotify's HiFi tier is coming -- but not soon

Posted:
in General Discussion
A report suggests the Apple Music lossless launch spoiled Spotify's HiFi plans, but a Spotify executive has confirmed the new tier is still coming eventually.

Spotify HiFi is coming, eventually
Spotify HiFi is coming, eventually


Spotify announced that a lossless tier called Spotify HiFi would be released in 2021. Two years later, an exec says the HiFi tier is definitely coming, but no word yet on when.

According to a report from The Verge, Spotify has had a HiFi tier available for over a year with employees able to access it. However, plans changed when Apple Music and Amazon revealed lossless music at no additional cost.

The report was generated based on an interview with Spotify co-president Gustav Soderstrom conducted by Decoder and additional information obtained by The Verge. The interview touched on the HiFi tier briefly, but no release dates or other information was provided.

"We announced it, but then the industry changed for a bunch of reasons," Soderstrom told Decoder. "We are going to do it, but we're going to do it in a way where it makes sense for us and for our listeners. The industry changed and we had to adapt."

The interviewer pressed for more details as to why the tier was delayed, but Soderstrom wouldn't specifically mention competitors or deals with labels. The report generated after states Apple Music's lossless introduction at no additional cost spoiled Spotify's plans -- though Soderstrom did not say so directly.

Allegedly, Spotify had hoped to offer lossless music at a higher paid tier and may still. This tier would be a revenue driver and could offer even more functionality, like spatial audio.

The interview covered by the report was focused on Spotify's pivot into its TikTok-like format. There was no mention of a Spotify HiFi release date or of any intention to include spatial audio or other formats.

Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 20
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 2,188member
    It seems the time is ending when a content provider can charge extra just for resolution and quality to match device capabilities. Spotify was just following suit with Amazon, Tidal, etc., and missed the boat when Apple added lossless and spatial audio at no extra charge. 

    Particularly with spatial audio, Apple’s decision was transformative. The old way of charging extra for “premium quality” actually stifled the business. Tidal made Dolby Atmos available more than a year before Apple, but charged a premium. At that point, because a much smaller group of people were willing to pay extra for it, not a lot of new content was being created in the format, which in turn limited the number of people who would pay extra to access such a limited catalog. It’s a dumb way to do business. So Apple flipped a switch and millions of people already had compatible playback gear in their pockets, and a music subscription that included access to the format. Now scads of Atmos content is available, with more coming every week. 

    So for Spotify, the content is available, but their plans of increasing prices to access it vanished. 

    Likewise, Netflix is struggling ostensibly with password sharing, but that may not be their real problem. Netflix charges a premium for 4K HDR video quality, while everyone else includes that in their regular pricing - because most new TVs are now sold with the capability. 

    To deflect the sting of the extra charge for a what has become a standard feature, Netflix bundles that with their tier that allows up to four simultaneous streams. Most of the people sharing their passwords are subscribed to this tier, and a nonzero number of those subscribers are there for the 4K. The irritation of paying more is blunted by the fact they can share the subscription with their mother-in-law. When Netflix cracks down on password sharing, these are the folks who will object the loudest, because they’ll be pissed about what was really the case all along:  Netflix is charging extra for what is in reality a standard feature, and the time is waning for this to be an acceptable business practice. 
    davmuthuk_vanalingamtmayapplebynaturewilliamlondonlolliverFileMakerFellercommand_fwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 20
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,645member
    Spotify continues to generate losses. I’ve been saying for several years that the only companies that will be able to offer music streaming on a large scale will be companies that offer it as a service, as additive to their other, much larger businesses. So Amazon, Apple, Google and possibly Microsoft, if they ever get their act together, will be able to do this. Possibly Meta and a couple of others. So far, over the more than two decades that streaming has been around, almost every separate company doing it has failed. Tidal is in an amorphous state, having major problems. Pandora, the same. Tiny services such as QoBuz are barely hanging in.

    spotify already offers some of the lowest payments per stream. So sure, they would want to raise their monthly fees. If the licensees require higher stream payments, they would have to. There’s no money for it otherwise. Despite having Ads for the majority of their now 500 million subscribers, they just can’t seem to “stream” a profit. How much longer will this continue?
    command_fwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 20
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,645member
    Dooofus said:
    AppleZulu said:
     Netflix is charging extra for what is in reality a standard feature, and the time is waning for this to be an acceptable business practice. 
    If Netflix charges extra for 4K and people pay for it by choice, of their own free will, how is that not an "acceptable business practice"?
    He didn’t say it isn’t now, but that it won’t be in the future. He’s right. If everyone else offers 4k for no extra payment, Netflix will have to follow. It’s why Spotify isn’t yet offering uncompressed audio. They can’t afford to at the current subscription price, and likely can’t sell it at a higher price now that Apple and Amazon aren’t.
    muthuk_vanalingamAppleZuluFileMakerFellercommand_fwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 20
    melgross said:
    spotify already offers some of the lowest payments per stream. 
    And Spotify wants to go even LOWER on payments to artists. News from yesterday outlines their plan to offer artists higher exposure to customers by tweaking their algorithm to show and play participating artists more often and more prominently, in exchange for those artists agreeing to a lower per stream payment plan than other artists. It sounds very similar to the "influencers" who beg businesses to give them their product for free and in exchange they'll "promote" the product. I really don't like it.
    williamlondonlolliverFileMakerFellercommand_fwatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 20
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,706member
    melgross said:
    Spotify continues to generate losses. I’ve been saying for several years that the only companies that will be able to offer music streaming on a large scale will be companies that offer it as a service, as additive to their other, much larger businesses.
    This would be the final nail in the commoditisation of music. 

    In which bizarre universe is the logical business choice simply accepting that there is no way to make any money off streaming business model, and in consequence reducing it to a loss-leading add-on? I mean, rather than figuring that THE FUCKING BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK? 

    I'm slightly irate over this because at NO POINT in this (mis)judgement of business viability do the interests of those supplying the actual content ever enter into the equation. 

    Oh, so you've built a "business" around ripping us off and giving everything we make away, conditioned customers to expect access to everything for free or ad-free for price of three Starbucks coffees a month, and haven't figured out how to make a profit? 

    Well, now. I have this D-sub tie-line cable that would like a word with you. 
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 20
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 2,188member
    spheric said:
    melgross said:
    Spotify continues to generate losses. I’ve been saying for several years that the only companies that will be able to offer music streaming on a large scale will be companies that offer it as a service, as additive to their other, much larger businesses.
    This would be the final nail in the commoditisation of music. 

    In which bizarre universe is the logical business choice simply accepting that there is no way to make any money off streaming business model, and in consequence reducing it to a loss-leading add-on? I mean, rather than figuring that THE FUCKING BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK? 

    I'm slightly irate over this because at NO POINT in this (mis)judgement of business viability do the interests of those supplying the actual content ever enter into the equation. 

    Oh, so you've built a "business" around ripping us off and giving everything we make away, conditioned customers to expect access to everything for free or ad-free for price of three Starbucks coffees a month, and haven't figured out how to make a profit? 

    Well, now. I have this D-sub tie-line cable that would like a word with you. 
    Apple pays higher royalty rates than Spotify, but I would be very, very surprised if Apple's service isn't profitable. Apple doesn't really do loss-leader businesses. That's why you can't get a cut-rate plastic-screened iPhone for $50. I don't think that the music streaming business model is inherently flawed. Should they pay artists more? Probably. Still, there are a lot of, pardon the pun, apples and oranges comparisons between how streaming and physical media pay artists that don't really account for both sides of both ledgers. Long before the laments about streaming emerged, there were decades worth of horror stories of how artists were screwed over by major labels, and more about how DIY artists lost money pressing their own records and CDs and ended up with garages full of unsold discs.

    The reality is it's a hard business and unless you were the Beatles, there's never really been a 'golden age' when everybody made a decent living making music. Heck, even the Beatles were screwed out of the publishing rights to most of their songwriting catalog. Streaming at least has the potential to be a far better way to pay musicians for recorded music. An artist can only (potentially) make money from a physical album the first time each unit is sold. "Potentially," because record labels pay artists an advance against which they charge the costs of pressing albums until such point their accounting departments can no longer hide the fact that sales have exceeded up-fornt costs and are generating profit. DIY artists trade the advance and smoke-and-mirror accounting for simply paying the actual up-front costs of pressing and distributing records. None of these people were making bank straight out of the gate. "First time each unit is sold," because physical media only pays once, when each unit is first sold. After that, the used market undercuts future sales. Artists make less than nothing from the sale of used copies of their records. They get no royalties from the sale, and each used copy sold could've been a new copy sale that would've paid royalties back to the artist.

    So while it's shocking to look at the fraction of a penny that an artist gets paid for each play of a song on a streaming service, you can't just compare that to the couple of bucks they might eventually get from the sale of a vinyl album. That album only pays once, no matter how many times it gets played. If it goes out of print, the money stops. Streaming pays every time someone plays a track. There's very little up-front cost to getting it uploaded to the streaming services. DIY artists can skip the labels altogether and make decent-sounding recordings at home. Once it's up on the streaming service, it never goes out of print. Use of a 20 year-old song on a popular TV show can generate sudden interest and immediate income for an artist whose album has been physically out-of-print for years. Streaming services also stopped the industry-wide death-spiral of the file-sharing days. Nobody bothers with that crap when they can just find it and listen to it on Apple Music, rather than worrying whether they've remembered to back up their hard-discs full of stolen music files. 

    So should streaming services pay artists a higher rate? Probably, but the business model actually has the potential to be the most equitable way to pay musicians for recorded music since Thomas Edison started cutting wax cylinders.
    lolliverFileMakerFellercommand_fwilliamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 20
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,119member
    AppleZulu said:
    It seems the time is ending when a content provider can charge extra just for resolution and quality to match device capabilities. Spotify was just following suit with Amazon, Tidal, etc., and missed the boat when Apple added lossless and spatial audio at no extra charge. 

    Particularly with spatial audio, Apple’s decision was transformative. The old way of charging extra for “premium quality” actually stifled the business. Tidal made Dolby Atmos available more than a year before Apple, but charged a premium. At that point, because a much smaller group of people were willing to pay extra for it, not a lot of new content was being created in the format, which in turn limited the number of people who would pay extra to access such a limited catalog. It’s a dumb way to do business. So Apple flipped a switch and millions of people already had compatible playback gear in their pockets, and a music subscription that included access to the format. Now scads of Atmos content is available, with more coming every week. 

    So for Spotify, the content is available, but their plans of increasing prices to access it vanished. 

    Likewise, Netflix is struggling ostensibly with password sharing, but that may not be their real problem. Netflix charges a premium for 4K HDR video quality, while everyone else includes that in their regular pricing - because most new TVs are now sold with the capability. 

    To deflect the sting of the extra charge for a what has become a standard feature, Netflix bundles that with their tier that allows up to four simultaneous streams. Most of the people sharing their passwords are subscribed to this tier, and a nonzero number of those subscribers are there for the 4K. The irritation of paying more is blunted by the fact they can share the subscription with their mother-in-law. When Netflix cracks down on password sharing, these are the folks who will object the loudest, because they’ll be pissed about what was really the case all along:  Netflix is charging extra for what is in reality a standard feature, and the time is waning for this to be an acceptable business practice. 
    With Apple Spatial Audio, just because most iPhones and newer iPads could play Spatial Audio, it doesn't mean that one can appreciate hearing it with the two speakers on those devices. In order to actually hear and appreciate Spatial Audio, Apple recommends using AirPods or special Beats headphones. Plus for ATV users, one must upgrade to an ATV 4K to get Spatial audio with their movies. Apple is using Spatial Audio to hopefully increase the sale of their hardware and add features to it. It's hardly Apple offering Spatial Audio"at no extra charge" to Apple Music subscribers, out of the goodness of their heart. It made business sense. Spotify don't have this advantage and only makes money with paid subscriptions and ads. And yes, Spotify is screwed. If Spatial Audio (Dolby Atmos) becomes more main stream for music listeners, they will end up having to offer Dolby Atmos "at no extra charge" .....  just to keep from losing subscribers.



    Is the glass half full or half empty? How do you know that Netflix is charging more for UHD/4K quality? And not charging less for lower quality streams? What makes you think that if Netflix were to no longer base their subscription rates based on the quality of the steam, that their subscription rate for an all quality stream would be what they are charging for their Standard plan DVD/BR quality (or their Basic plan quality,which is mainly for mobile devices)? And not charge what they are now charging for their Premium plan UHD/4K quality? Not everyone have a 4K TV or care to pay extra for the very limited movies in 4K (Which usually cost extra no matter how one gets the content on to the TV.), even uf they have a 4K TV . So in the end, Standard plan subscribers are saving money by paying less for the video quality they want vs Premium plan subscribers paying more for UHD quality.

    Plus maybe the extra cost (between Standard and Premium plans) might have to do more with the 2 more simultaneous streams and not so much the added UHD quality movies. I bet more consumers have more than 2 TV's in their household, than care to pay extra to watch UHD on their 4K TV's. So if Netflix were to add UHD to their Standard plan and still charge extra $4 extra for two more simultaneous streams, there would still be a lot of Netflix watchers paying the extra $4. 

    Remember Netflix operate more like a home cable company and not a mobile music streaming service. My cable company don't charge extra for HD contents. BUT, in order to watch it, I have to rent an HD box. Whereas I get 2 free standard box with a subscription, the HD box must always be rented for $10 each per month. I think the rental fee drops after 2 boxes. But any additional standard boxes must also be rented for $2.50 per box per month. (Remember the time when one could just hook their cable coax to a VCR with a tuner and get the basic cable channels, without having to pay any extra to rent more standard cable TV boxes?) The HD content included in my subscription is not at "no extra charge", when one have to rent an HD box to watch it.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 20
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,645member
    melgross said:
    spotify already offers some of the lowest payments per stream. 
    And Spotify wants to go even LOWER on payments to artists. News from yesterday outlines their plan to offer artists higher exposure to customers by tweaking their algorithm to show and play participating artists more often and more prominently, in exchange for those artists agreeing to a lower per stream payment plan than other artists. It sounds very similar to the "influencers" who beg businesses to give them their product for free and in exchange they'll "promote" the product. I really don't like it.
    Yes, I just read that today.  It seems ironic to me that the worlds largest, by far, streaming service, by the numbers, would try to get Apple to open up more, even though Spotify has almost five times as many subscribers, though, doesn’t make money. Perhaps they should attempt to figure out a way to be consistently profitable first, though I think that’s impossible.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 20
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,645member
    spheric said:
    melgross said:
    Spotify continues to generate losses. I’ve been saying for several years that the only companies that will be able to offer music streaming on a large scale will be companies that offer it as a service, as additive to their other, much larger businesses.
    This would be the final nail in the commoditisation of music. 

    In which bizarre universe is the logical business choice simply accepting that there is no way to make any money off streaming business model, and in consequence reducing it to a loss-leading add-on? I mean, rather than figuring that THE FUCKING BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK? 

    I'm slightly irate over this because at NO POINT in this (mis)judgement of business viability do the interests of those supplying the actual content ever enter into the equation. 

    Oh, so you've built a "business" around ripping us off and giving everything we make away, conditioned customers to expect access to everything for free or ad-free for price of three Starbucks coffees a month, and haven't figured out how to make a profit? 

    Well, now. I have this D-sub tie-line cable that would like a word with you. 
    The problem is that except for a very tiny number of subscribers of Tidal and QoBuz, and by tiny, I mean just a few hundred thousand between them, the market has shown that people don’t want to spend more than about $10 per month for streaming. Several companies have tried to charge $15, but dropped it and went out of business.

    seriously, it’s the potential customers. When ‘tidal first appeared here I had a fairly long discussion with the then CEO. I asked him what he was trying to do here. He said that young people, including college students would race to pay $20 a month got CD quality music. I told him he was nuts. I asked why he was demo’ing at a high end audio show if he believed what he said, rather than at some gathering for young people, such as a ComicCon. His answer was garbled. He really had no idea. We see what happened. When it was bought, they immediately released a compressed version for $9.95.

    remember that what every streaming company is paying was negotiated. It wasn’t simply a; “This is what we’re going to pay you.” So there’s a connection between what can be paid for a company to stay in business, and what recording companies and artists want to get paid. Unfortunately, it come back to what consumers are willing to pay. Somewhere in there is where the payment per stream lies.
    watto_cobraspheric
  • Reply 10 of 20
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,645member
    AppleZulu said:
    spheric said:
    melgross said:
    Spotify continues to generate losses. I’ve been saying for several years that the only companies that will be able to offer music streaming on a large scale will be companies that offer it as a service, as additive to their other, much larger businesses.
    This would be the final nail in the commoditisation of music. 

    In which bizarre universe is the logical business choice simply accepting that there is no way to make any money off streaming business model, and in consequence reducing it to a loss-leading add-on? I mean, rather than figuring that THE FUCKING BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK? 

    I'm slightly irate over this because at NO POINT in this (mis)judgement of business viability do the interests of those supplying the actual content ever enter into the equation. 

    Oh, so you've built a "business" around ripping us off and giving everything we make away, conditioned customers to expect access to everything for free or ad-free for price of three Starbucks coffees a month, and haven't figured out how to make a profit? 

    Well, now. I have this D-sub tie-line cable that would like a word with you. 
    Apple pays higher royalty rates than Spotify, but I would be very, very surprised if Apple's service isn't profitable. Apple doesn't really do loss-leader businesses. That's why you can't get a cut-rate plastic-screened iPhone for $50. I don't think that the music streaming business model is inherently flawed. Should they pay artists more? Probably. Still, there are a lot of, pardon the pun, apples and oranges comparisons between how streaming and physical media pay artists that don't really account for both sides of both ledgers. Long before the laments about streaming emerged, there were decades worth of horror stories of how artists were screwed over by major labels, and more about how DIY artists lost money pressing their own records and CDs and ended up with garages full of unsold discs.

    The reality is it's a hard business and unless you were the Beatles, there's never really been a 'golden age' when everybody made a decent living making music. Heck, even the Beatles were screwed out of the publishing rights to most of their songwriting catalog. Streaming at least has the potential to be a far better way to pay musicians for recorded music. An artist can only (potentially) make money from a physical album the first time each unit is sold. "Potentially," because record labels pay artists an advance against which they charge the costs of pressing albums until such point their accounting departments can no longer hide the fact that sales have exceeded up-fornt costs and are generating profit. DIY artists trade the advance and smoke-and-mirror accounting for simply paying the actual up-front costs of pressing and distributing records. None of these people were making bank straight out of the gate. "First time each unit is sold," because physical media only pays once, when each unit is first sold. After that, the used market undercuts future sales. Artists make less than nothing from the sale of used copies of their records. They get no royalties from the sale, and each used copy sold could've been a new copy sale that would've paid royalties back to the artist.

    So while it's shocking to look at the fraction of a penny that an artist gets paid for each play of a song on a streaming service, you can't just compare that to the couple of bucks they might eventually get from the sale of a vinyl album. That album only pays once, no matter how many times it gets played. If it goes out of print, the money stops. Streaming pays every time someone plays a track. There's very little up-front cost to getting it uploaded to the streaming services. DIY artists can skip the labels altogether and make decent-sounding recordings at home. Once it's up on the streaming service, it never goes out of print. Use of a 20 year-old song on a popular TV show can generate sudden interest and immediate income for an artist whose album has been physically out-of-print for years. Streaming services also stopped the industry-wide death-spiral of the file-sharing days. Nobody bothers with that crap when they can just find it and listen to it on Apple Music, rather than worrying whether they've remembered to back up their hard-discs full of stolen music files. 

    So should streaming services pay artists a higher rate? Probably, but the business model actually has the potential to be the most equitable way to pay musicians for recorded music since Thomas Edison started cutting wax cylinders.
    I wouldn’t be so sure about Apple’s profits in this. Remember that Apple spends a few hundred million a year writing and updating software that they give away for free with device sales. That list of free software continues to grow, now with the classical app and service. If Apple figures they lose a couple of bucks a months on each Apple Music sub, but makes six bucks a month on increased profits elsewhere because of it, that’s a four buck a month advantage. Software and services are far more squishy than hardware, where costs are much more aligned with sales. 

    If Apple believes that Apple TV series and movie sales and rentals are up because of this, then it’s a win for them. Amazon may feel that their loss leading Prime service brings in so much more in sales that the loss is worthwhile. Google is a giant advertising service that captures every bit of what you do there, including YouTube, Nest and other services. Music tastes is just another thing for them so sell. What does Spotify have? They’ve tried Podcasts, but their costs there have been phenomenal. It raised their sales, but didn’t do a thing to make profits.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 20
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 2,188member
    davidw said:
    AppleZulu said:
    It seems the time is ending when a content provider can charge extra just for resolution and quality to match device capabilities. Spotify was just following suit with Amazon, Tidal, etc., and missed the boat when Apple added lossless and spatial audio at no extra charge. 

    Particularly with spatial audio, Apple’s decision was transformative. The old way of charging extra for “premium quality” actually stifled the business. Tidal made Dolby Atmos available more than a year before Apple, but charged a premium. At that point, because a much smaller group of people were willing to pay extra for it, not a lot of new content was being created in the format, which in turn limited the number of people who would pay extra to access such a limited catalog. It’s a dumb way to do business. So Apple flipped a switch and millions of people already had compatible playback gear in their pockets, and a music subscription that included access to the format. Now scads of Atmos content is available, with more coming every week. 

    So for Spotify, the content is available, but their plans of increasing prices to access it vanished. 

    Likewise, Netflix is struggling ostensibly with password sharing, but that may not be their real problem. Netflix charges a premium for 4K HDR video quality, while everyone else includes that in their regular pricing - because most new TVs are now sold with the capability. 

    To deflect the sting of the extra charge for a what has become a standard feature, Netflix bundles that with their tier that allows up to four simultaneous streams. Most of the people sharing their passwords are subscribed to this tier, and a nonzero number of those subscribers are there for the 4K. The irritation of paying more is blunted by the fact they can share the subscription with their mother-in-law. When Netflix cracks down on password sharing, these are the folks who will object the loudest, because they’ll be pissed about what was really the case all along:  Netflix is charging extra for what is in reality a standard feature, and the time is waning for this to be an acceptable business practice. 
    With Apple Spatial Audio, just because most iPhones and newer iPads could play Spatial Audio, it doesn't mean that one can appreciate hearing it with the two speakers on those devices. In order to actually hear and appreciate Spatial Audio, Apple recommends using AirPods or special Beats headphones. Plus for ATV users, one must upgrade to an ATV 4K to get Spatial audio with their movies. Apple is using Spatial Audio to hopefully increase the sale of their hardware and add features to it. It's hardly Apple offering Spatial Audio"at no extra charge" to Apple Music subscribers, out of the goodness of their heart. It made business sense. Spotify don't have this advantage and only makes money with paid subscriptions and ads. And yes, Spotify is screwed. If Spatial Audio (Dolby Atmos) becomes more main stream for music listeners, they will end up having to offer Dolby Atmos "at no extra charge" .....  just to keep from losing subscribers.



    Is the glass half full or half empty? How do you know that Netflix is charging more for UHD/4K quality? And not charging less for lower quality streams? What makes you think that if Netflix were to no longer base their subscription rates based on the quality of the steam, that their subscription rate for an all quality stream would be what they are charging for their Standard plan DVD/BR quality (or their Basic plan quality,which is mainly for mobile devices)? And not charge what they are now charging for their Premium plan UHD/4K quality? Not everyone have a 4K TV or care to pay extra for the very limited movies in 4K (Which usually cost extra no matter how one gets the content on to the TV.), even uf they have a 4K TV . So in the end, Standard plan subscribers are saving money by paying less for the video quality they want vs Premium plan subscribers paying more for UHD quality.

    Plus maybe the extra cost (between Standard and Premium plans) might have to do more with the 2 more simultaneous streams and not so much the added UHD quality movies. I bet more consumers have more than 2 TV's in their household, than care to pay extra to watch UHD on their 4K TV's. So if Netflix were to add UHD to their Standard plan and still charge extra $4 extra for two more simultaneous streams, there would still be a lot of Netflix watchers paying the extra $4. 

    Remember Netflix operate more like a home cable company and not a mobile music streaming service. My cable company don't charge extra for HD contents. BUT, in order to watch it, I have to rent an HD box. Whereas I get 2 free standard box with a subscription, the HD box must always be rented for $10 each per month. I think the rental fee drops after 2 boxes. But any additional standard boxes must also be rented for $2.50 per box per month. (Remember the time when one could just hook their cable coax to a VCR with a tuner and get the basic cable channels, without having to pay any extra to rent more standard cable TV boxes?) The HD content included in my subscription is not at "no extra charge", when one have to rent an HD box to watch it.

    Yes, you can spend money to get Atmos-compatible gear, but there are already millions of people with an iPhone in their pockets, and it's possible to listen to spatial audio via your existing, standard Apple Music subscription, with plain, wired headphones or earbuds plugged into your iPhone. So after every other previous attempt at introducing a surround-sound format - quad, SACD, 5.1 DVD audio, Blu Ray Audio, etc. - this was the first time that a surround format was released to the public without requiring additional expenditures to access it. The hardware was in your pocket, and you didn't have to re-purchase premium-priced physical media copies of your music just to hear it. That's when availability of content exploded. Not before. As I said, Tidal and Amazon had Atmos a year before Apple, but they charged extra to access it. New Atmos content only came in dribs and drabs. Then Apple did their thing, and it's been off to the races since.

    Next, how do I know Netflix is charging more for UHD/4K? Because that's what they did, and I can remember things from before last week.
    edited March 2023 watto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 20
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 2,188member
    melgross said:
    spheric said:
    melgross said:
    Spotify continues to generate losses. I’ve been saying for several years that the only companies that will be able to offer music streaming on a large scale will be companies that offer it as a service, as additive to their other, much larger businesses.
    This would be the final nail in the commoditisation of music. 

    In which bizarre universe is the logical business choice simply accepting that there is no way to make any money off streaming business model, and in consequence reducing it to a loss-leading add-on? I mean, rather than figuring that THE FUCKING BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK? 

    I'm slightly irate over this because at NO POINT in this (mis)judgement of business viability do the interests of those supplying the actual content ever enter into the equation. 

    Oh, so you've built a "business" around ripping us off and giving everything we make away, conditioned customers to expect access to everything for free or ad-free for price of three Starbucks coffees a month, and haven't figured out how to make a profit? 

    Well, now. I have this D-sub tie-line cable that would like a word with you. 
    The problem is that except for a very tiny number of subscribers of Tidal and QoBuz, and by tiny, I mean just a few hundred thousand between them, the market has shown that people don’t want to spend more than about $10 per month for streaming. Several companies have tried to charge $15, but dropped it and went out of business.

    seriously, it’s the potential customers. When ‘tidal first appeared here I had a fairly long discussion with the then CEO. I asked him what he was trying to do here. He said that young people, including college students would race to pay $20 a month got CD quality music. I told him he was nuts. I asked why he was demo’ing at a high end audio show if he believed what he said, rather than at some gathering for young people, such as a ComicCon. His answer was garbled. He really had no idea. We see what happened. When it was bought, they immediately released a compressed version for $9.95.

    remember that what every streaming company is paying was negotiated. It wasn’t simply a; “This is what we’re going to pay you.” So there’s a connection between what can be paid for a company to stay in business, and what recording companies and artists want to get paid. Unfortunately, it come back to what consumers are willing to pay. Somewhere in there is where the payment per stream lies.
    Tidal's implementation of Dolby Atmos was a certified cluster. Excited to see their promotions that it would be available via an AppleTV app so that I could play it through my surround sound speaker setup, I signed up for Tidal's premium tier plan to get access to their lossless and Atmos content. 

    Their UI was terrible. At the start, they had some Atmos-featuring song playlists, and they had a "new Atmos releases" list of albums. You could not search for Atmos-enabled content. If an album did have Atmos-formated content, the same album would also be available in a compressed stereo format, and possibly a lossless stereo format. You couldn't tell which was which until you clicked on the album, so you'd have to play a shell game to find the one you wanted. The list of "new" Atmos releases was limited to 30 albums, so adding a new album meant an old one dropped off of the list. Since you couldn't search specifically for Atmos content, if you hadn't noted down or saved things that were in that list before, good luck finding them again later. Luckily, this entire approach meant there wasn't enough consumer interest generated for the format to cause anyone to go out of their way to create new Atmos mixes, so the "new" Atmos album list stayed pretty static most of the time. It also meant I'd listened at least once to the things I wanted to hear in Atmos fairly quickly, and they weren't adding new material at a rate that warranted the expense of an extra music subscription. Their UI was so bad I definitely wasn't going to replace Apple Music with Tidal.

    I even sent an inquiry to their customer support, and received a reply that they'd share my idea with their engineers for being able to search for or otherwise easily browse to find Dolby Atmos content, but they didn't think there were any plans to do anything like that. This was for a feature that they were paying to heavily advertise, and that they were charging a premium to access. So I did used free trial, probably paid for a month, then dropped it in hopes that Apple would do something better. Apple did something better.

    It's no surprise that their CEO had no idea who his prospective audience was. The pricing meant he should've been courting audiophiles, but the user interface meant he was really chasing people who don't care what they're listening to. The ambivalent audience isn't going to pay the premium, and the audiophile audience isn't going to pay to dig through a figurative Walmart bin of crap titles, hoping to randomly find content they actually want.
    edited March 2023 watto_cobramuthuk_vanalingamspheric
  • Reply 13 of 20
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 2,188member
    melgross said:
    AppleZulu said:
    spheric said:
    melgross said:
    Spotify continues to generate losses. I’ve been saying for several years that the only companies that will be able to offer music streaming on a large scale will be companies that offer it as a service, as additive to their other, much larger businesses.
    This would be the final nail in the commoditisation of music. 

    In which bizarre universe is the logical business choice simply accepting that there is no way to make any money off streaming business model, and in consequence reducing it to a loss-leading add-on? I mean, rather than figuring that THE FUCKING BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK? 

    I'm slightly irate over this because at NO POINT in this (mis)judgement of business viability do the interests of those supplying the actual content ever enter into the equation. 

    Oh, so you've built a "business" around ripping us off and giving everything we make away, conditioned customers to expect access to everything for free or ad-free for price of three Starbucks coffees a month, and haven't figured out how to make a profit? 

    Well, now. I have this D-sub tie-line cable that would like a word with you. 
    Apple pays higher royalty rates than Spotify, but I would be very, very surprised if Apple's service isn't profitable. Apple doesn't really do loss-leader businesses. That's why you can't get a cut-rate plastic-screened iPhone for $50. I don't think that the music streaming business model is inherently flawed. Should they pay artists more? Probably. Still, there are a lot of, pardon the pun, apples and oranges comparisons between how streaming and physical media pay artists that don't really account for both sides of both ledgers. Long before the laments about streaming emerged, there were decades worth of horror stories of how artists were screwed over by major labels, and more about how DIY artists lost money pressing their own records and CDs and ended up with garages full of unsold discs.

    The reality is it's a hard business and unless you were the Beatles, there's never really been a 'golden age' when everybody made a decent living making music. Heck, even the Beatles were screwed out of the publishing rights to most of their songwriting catalog. Streaming at least has the potential to be a far better way to pay musicians for recorded music. An artist can only (potentially) make money from a physical album the first time each unit is sold. "Potentially," because record labels pay artists an advance against which they charge the costs of pressing albums until such point their accounting departments can no longer hide the fact that sales have exceeded up-fornt costs and are generating profit. DIY artists trade the advance and smoke-and-mirror accounting for simply paying the actual up-front costs of pressing and distributing records. None of these people were making bank straight out of the gate. "First time each unit is sold," because physical media only pays once, when each unit is first sold. After that, the used market undercuts future sales. Artists make less than nothing from the sale of used copies of their records. They get no royalties from the sale, and each used copy sold could've been a new copy sale that would've paid royalties back to the artist.

    So while it's shocking to look at the fraction of a penny that an artist gets paid for each play of a song on a streaming service, you can't just compare that to the couple of bucks they might eventually get from the sale of a vinyl album. That album only pays once, no matter how many times it gets played. If it goes out of print, the money stops. Streaming pays every time someone plays a track. There's very little up-front cost to getting it uploaded to the streaming services. DIY artists can skip the labels altogether and make decent-sounding recordings at home. Once it's up on the streaming service, it never goes out of print. Use of a 20 year-old song on a popular TV show can generate sudden interest and immediate income for an artist whose album has been physically out-of-print for years. Streaming services also stopped the industry-wide death-spiral of the file-sharing days. Nobody bothers with that crap when they can just find it and listen to it on Apple Music, rather than worrying whether they've remembered to back up their hard-discs full of stolen music files. 

    So should streaming services pay artists a higher rate? Probably, but the business model actually has the potential to be the most equitable way to pay musicians for recorded music since Thomas Edison started cutting wax cylinders.
    I wouldn’t be so sure about Apple’s profits in this. Remember that Apple spends a few hundred million a year writing and updating software that they give away for free with device sales. That list of free software continues to grow, now with the classical app and service. If Apple figures they lose a couple of bucks a months on each Apple Music sub, but makes six bucks a month on increased profits elsewhere because of it, that’s a four buck a month advantage. Software and services are far more squishy than hardware, where costs are much more aligned with sales. 

    If Apple believes that Apple TV series and movie sales and rentals are up because of this, then it’s a win for them. Amazon may feel that their loss leading Prime service brings in so much more in sales that the loss is worthwhile. Google is a giant advertising service that captures every bit of what you do there, including YouTube, Nest and other services. Music tastes is just another thing for them so sell. What does Spotify have? They’ve tried Podcasts, but their costs there have been phenomenal. It raised their sales, but didn’t do a thing to make profits.
    It's very true that Apple often doesn't parse out which divisions are making the most money, and they play the long game, not quarterly report blackjack. That said, there's not much in their history to suggest, even in the 'squishy' service categories, that they'll create a whole division that loses money in the long run, just to prop up the overall combined business. Even the "free" operating system and other software is really just part of the hardware's list price. A MacBook isn't more expensive than  a similarly specced PC notebook just because they can get away with it. You're buying six or seven years' worth of OS and software updates with it. Apple Music is priced separately, and while they may or may not seek much of a margin on it, I doubt they'd plan on routinely losing money with it.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 20
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,119member
    AppleZulu said:
    spheric said:
    melgross said:
    Spotify continues to generate losses. I’ve been saying for several years that the only companies that will be able to offer music streaming on a large scale will be companies that offer it as a service, as additive to their other, much larger businesses.
    This would be the final nail in the commoditisation of music. 

    In which bizarre universe is the logical business choice simply accepting that there is no way to make any money off streaming business model, and in consequence reducing it to a loss-leading add-on? I mean, rather than figuring that THE FUCKING BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK? 

    I'm slightly irate over this because at NO POINT in this (mis)judgement of business viability do the interests of those supplying the actual content ever enter into the equation. 

    Oh, so you've built a "business" around ripping us off and giving everything we make away, conditioned customers to expect access to everything for free or ad-free for price of three Starbucks coffees a month, and haven't figured out how to make a profit? 

    Well, now. I have this D-sub tie-line cable that would like a word with you. 
    Apple pays higher royalty rates than Spotify, but I would be very, very surprised if Apple's service isn't profitable. Apple doesn't really do loss-leader businesses. That's why you can't get a cut-rate plastic-screened iPhone for $50. I don't think that the music streaming business model is inherently flawed. Should they pay artists more? Probably. Still, there are a lot of, pardon the pun, apples and oranges comparisons between how streaming and physical media pay artists that don't really account for both sides of both ledgers. Long before the laments about streaming emerged, there were decades worth of horror stories of how artists were screwed over by major labels, and more about how DIY artists lost money pressing their own records and CDs and ended up with garages full of unsold discs.

    The reality is it's a hard business and unless you were the Beatles, there's never really been a 'golden age' when everybody made a decent living making music. Heck, even the Beatles were screwed out of the publishing rights to most of their songwriting catalog. Streaming at least has the potential to be a far better way to pay musicians for recorded music. An artist can only (potentially) make money from a physical album the first time each unit is sold. "Potentially," because record labels pay artists an advance against which they charge the costs of pressing albums until such point their accounting departments can no longer hide the fact that sales have exceeded up-fornt costs and are generating profit. DIY artists trade the advance and smoke-and-mirror accounting for simply paying the actual up-front costs of pressing and distributing records. None of these people were making bank straight out of the gate. "First time each unit is sold," because physical media only pays once, when each unit is first sold. After that, the used market undercuts future sales. Artists make less than nothing from the sale of used copies of their records. They get no royalties from the sale, and each used copy sold could've been a new copy sale that would've paid royalties back to the artist.

    So while it's shocking to look at the fraction of a penny that an artist gets paid for each play of a song on a streaming service, you can't just compare that to the couple of bucks they might eventually get from the sale of a vinyl album. That album only pays once, no matter how many times it gets played. If it goes out of print, the money stops. Streaming pays every time someone plays a track. There's very little up-front cost to getting it uploaded to the streaming services. DIY artists can skip the labels altogether and make decent-sounding recordings at home. Once it's up on the streaming service, it never goes out of print. Use of a 20 year-old song on a popular TV show can generate sudden interest and immediate income for an artist whose album has been physically out-of-print for years. Streaming services also stopped the industry-wide death-spiral of the file-sharing days. Nobody bothers with that crap when they can just find it and listen to it on Apple Music, rather than worrying whether they've remembered to back up their hard-discs full of stolen music files. 

    So should streaming services pay artists a higher rate? Probably, but the business model actually has the potential to be the most equitable way to pay musicians for recorded music since Thomas Edison started cutting wax cylinders.
    Actually, none of the big music streaming services pay per stream, the pay per stream numbers are calculated after the music industry receives their part of the revenue sharing agreement. The agreement most big music streaming service have with the music industry is based on revenue sharing of the cost of a music streaming subscription. In most cases, it's about a 70/30 split. The music industry gets about 70% of the price of a subscription and the streaming service keeps 30% of it. Then using that revenue number, they divide the amount they got with the 70% of revenue from a provider by how many streams were made by that provider, to arrive at the how much that provider pay per stream number. If Apple Music subscribers (as a whole) streamed less music than Spotify subscribers, then Apple would be perceived as paying more per stream, even though both services are paying about the same 70% of their subscription revenue to the music industry.


    The revenue sharing model of streamed music is a non workable model for the music streaming providers. It makes it so that the service providers must spend their 30% part of the revenue sharing to pay for their whole operating expenses. Including the cost of retaining paying subscribers and advertising to increase paying subscribers in order to increase profits. While the music industry also reaps in more profits, for doing none of that. A more reasonable model would be that of some sort of profit sharing. Where both have to spend money to increase paying subscribers to streaming music.

    Netflix is very profitable because they operate under a different model with the movie industry. Here, Netflix pays a one time license to stream a video (movie or TV show) or a collection of videos, from each content providers, for a certain amount of time, regardless of the number of streams. This way Netflix can figure out how many subscribers it will take to pay for all the licenses for their contents and they can count on every subscriber after that number as being very profitable. The movie industry profit from the original license fee, not the number of subscribers Netflix gains or any increase in subscription price, after signing the license agreement.  

    Then the model of how the music industry pay the artist gets really screwy and is where the small independent artist really get screwed. Not from the how much the music streaming service providers "pay per stream".


    But in a way you are right about the old days of making money with music. Back in those days (and even today), artist made most of their money by touring and doing live concerts. They see radio play and record sales as a form of free advertising and promotion for their concerts. But Lennon and McCartney still made money from radio play and record sales because they were the credited songwriters for most of their songs. (Remember, the Beatles were very popular and World famous back then and sold tens of millions of records with plenty of radio play.) Songwriters have a special place in copyright laws and they nearly always make some sort of royalty from radio play and record sales. (Not to mention licensing of their songs for movies, TV shows, covering by other artist and used in live performances.) 

    So in a way, small artists are able to make some money with their songs with streaming, without having to perform live concerts or radio play or sales of records (CD). And the very little money they make from having their songs streamed is some what comparable to how the Beatles made very little of their money from radio play and record sales. The real money made with music over the years is with the publishing rights, providing others wants to use the artist songs for commercial gain. And the label usually gets those rights as part of their upfront payment and then sell them to a music publishing house. This is why the wealth of the Beatles took off when they formed their own music label (Apple Records) and they no longer had to perform live to make a ton of money from their music. But in 1969, they got "screwed" out of the publishing rights profits made with the songs on the Capital and VeeJay labels. At least Lennon and McCartney still held on to their songwriters rights to those songs. But after 50 years, McCartney once again owns the publishing rights to those songs (and songs he co-wrote with Lennon.)

    Here's the interesting story behind that.






  • Reply 15 of 20
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,119member
    spheric said:
    melgross said:
    Spotify continues to generate losses. I’ve been saying for several years that the only companies that will be able to offer music streaming on a large scale will be companies that offer it as a service, as additive to their other, much larger businesses.
    This would be the final nail in the commoditisation of music. 

    In which bizarre universe is the logical business choice simply accepting that there is no way to make any money off streaming business model, and in consequence reducing it to a loss-leading add-on? I mean, rather than figuring that THE FUCKING BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK? 

    I'm slightly irate over this because at NO POINT in this (mis)judgement of business viability do the interests of those supplying the actual content ever enter into the equation. 

    Oh, so you've built a "business" around ripping us off and giving everything we make away, conditioned customers to expect access to everything for free or ad-free for price of three Starbucks coffees a month, and haven't figured out how to make a profit? 

    Well, now. I have this D-sub tie-line cable that would like a word with you. 

    One don't need to be in a bizarre universe to accept that the current music streaming model do not work, one can see than in our real universe. And the reasons for this are not out of this World.

    For one, music streaming providers are already paying 70% of their revenue from paying subscriptions, to the music industry. That amount doesn't change with the numbers of music their subscribers streams. The main selling point of a paid subscription is that its unlimited streams. Without unlimited streaming, hardly anyone would be paying for a subscription. Not even the price of single cup of Starbucks coffee.The more music a subscriber streams, the less the music industry gets per stream. It a revenue sharing model with the split being about 70/30. That's the way model works. Otherwise, if the providers actually had to pay per stream, they can easily end up paying all of (and more) of their subscription price to the music industry for subscribers that streams a lot of music. Apple would have to pay the music industry all $10 of the revenue from a subscriber, if they streamed 1000 songs per month, at $.01 per stream.



    Second, every big music streaming provider is offering nearly the same exact contents. If one provider needs to raise subscription prices to make a profit, then their current subscribers could just change providers and not lose anything in term of access to contents. (This is different from video streaming providers as they all offer different and original contents and a subscriber might be subscribing to more than one provider in order to get different contents. I doubt that many would pay for a subscription to both Spotify and Apple Music. That might only happen in a bizarre universe.) So a music streaming provider can't raise prices, even though it only cost 3 cups of Starbucks coffee to subscribe now. Unless they all raise prices at the same time and then both the US and EU will go after them for anti-trust violation under the collusion clause. The only real way for the music industry to make more revenue for their contents is for the streaming providers to attract more subscribers. And this is getting harder and harder to do. Specially with World wide inflation raising the cost of essential consumer goods and services.  And guess who's going to discontinue their music streaming service first? The ones that are streaming music the least, as they are the ones that will see paying for music streaming as non-essential and they are the ones that are most profitable to the music industry.

    This model wouldn't even work if all 615M current paying subscribers to a streaming music service were to sign up with just 1 of the current music streaming service. For sure the streaming service that got all the subscribers would be in a lot better shape (and a monopoly) but the music industry would see the same amount of revenue. It's going to take way more than 615M paying subscribers to make this model work for all involve, if raising the price of a subscription is not a viable choice.  

    edited March 2023 spheric
  • Reply 16 of 20
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,706member
    AppleZulu said:
    The reality is it's a hard business and unless you were the Beatles, there's never really been a 'golden age' when everybody made a decent living making music. 

    […]

    So should streaming services pay artists a higher rate? Probably, but the business model actually has the potential to be the most equitable way to pay musicians for recorded music since Thomas Edison started cutting wax cylinders.
    What you write is valid, but I believe you're misunderstanding me:

    I'm not arguing (nor under the illusion) that everybody should be able to make a decent living making music. 

    I'm arguing against the devaluing of music.
    Back in the Beatles' day, records were expensive. Most people, if they had records at all, had maybe two or three albums, and many didn't even have record player on which to play them (they'd take them to parties to play them there). 

    Music was worth a lot, and those who weren't content just listening to radio or going to clubs chose carefully and bought what was important to them. 

    Paying the equivalent of two Starbucks Matcha Latte for EVERYTHING THERE IS means that music ain't worth shit — which simply isn't true, considering how it can make people feel. 
    This needs to change, IMO, and it can. IIRC, people today are paying LESS monthly for their music subscription, than they used to in the days of CDs, on average. 

    So they're getting infinitely more, while actually paying less than they used to. How can this be? It's certainly not the record labels eating the difference. 

    Which brings us to cost of production. Yes, it's possible to make great records with only a MacBook and maybe a microphone, these days, rather than needing a room which cost half a million in 1974 dollars to build. But conversely, that also means that there's so much more out there, that it's impossible to stand out and actually get plays without investing thousands into promotion. 
    (The argument that a studio in a box can be had for $3000 these days, rather than paying $600/day also assumes that the months' or years' work it takes to create is free — and that all music can be created in-the-box, which is a whole 'nother Book of Misconceptions…)

    Which means that, given the business scheme of streaming, is impossible to recoup your costs even if you're moderately successful. 

    A HUGE part of this problem is that the payout scheme works by assuming that music is a commodity, rather than something people care about. 

    The way it works right now is that all the subscription fees are pooled, costs subtracted, and the rest is paid out by the absolute number of streams. 
    But that lumps the person who just keeps a Charts Radio stream running twelve hours a day in with the guy who's a total fan of this obscure underground band from the other side of the world and only listens to his six favourite records whenever he gets a chance to. 
    That guy's money still goes to Drake and Taylor Swift.
    All respect to Drake and Swift; they deserve their accolades, and they certainly deserve to be rich, BUT: They don't deserve this guy's subscription money.

    The payout model MUST be adjusted to account for what a subscriber is actually listening to. The way it is now, there is zero value attached to how individual people value the music they listen to. 

    Of course, that means that EVERY SINGLE LABEL DEAL must be renegotiated. And that's not going to happen for a long time.

    I can't help but wish that Jobs had been around to negotiate the basic deals at the dawn of the streaming era — but he was (rightly) a staunch opponent of the rental model, plus the record industry wasn't going to let him negotiate a fair deal a second time. 


    AND NOW: enter Dolby Atmos. You've got music valued at NOTHING, with no hope of ever recouping investment unless you're a major star, and there's this industry fad that requires investing in expensive, acoustically treated rooms (high five-figure investment) PLUS a studio-grade 7.1 system and the appropriate controllers and software. 

    Yeah, it's nice that Apple is supporting one half of the Dolby Atmos spec in their higher-end earplugs and headphones, standard. They're not paying for production. 
    edited March 2023
  • Reply 17 of 20
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 2,188member
    spheric said:
    AppleZulu said:
    The reality is it's a hard business and unless you were the Beatles, there's never really been a 'golden age' when everybody made a decent living making music. 

    […]

    So should streaming services pay artists a higher rate? Probably, but the business model actually has the potential to be the most equitable way to pay musicians for recorded music since Thomas Edison started cutting wax cylinders.
    What you write is valid, but I believe you're misunderstanding me:

    I'm not arguing (nor under the illusion) that everybody should be able to make a decent living making music. 

    I'm arguing against the devaluing of music.
    Back in the Beatles' day, records were expensive. Most people, if they had records at all, had maybe two or three albums, and many didn't even have record player on which to play them (they'd take them to parties to play them there). 

    Music was worth a lot, and those who weren't content just listening to radio or going to clubs chose carefully and bought what was important to them. 

    Paying the equivalent of two Starbucks Matcha Latte for EVERYTHING THERE IS means that music ain't worth shit — which simply isn't true, considering how it can make people feel. 
    This needs to change, IMO, and it can. IIRC, people today are paying LESS monthly for their music subscription, than they used to in the days of CDs, on average. 

    So they're getting infinitely more, while actually paying less than they used to. How can this be? It's certainly not the record labels eating the difference. 

    Which brings us to cost of production. Yes, it's possible to make great records with only a MacBook and maybe a microphone, these days, rather than needing a room which cost half a million in 1974 dollars to build. But conversely, that also means that there's so much more out there, that it's impossible to stand out and actually get plays without investing thousands into promotion. 
    (The argument that a studio in a box can be had for $3000 these days, rather than paying $600/day also assumes that the months' or years' work it takes to create is free — and that all music can be created in-the-box, which is a whole 'nother Book of Misconceptions…)

    Which means that, given the business scheme of streaming, is impossible to recoup your costs even if you're moderately successful. 

    A HUGE part of this problem is that the payout scheme works by assuming that music is a commodity, rather than something people care about. 

    The way it works right now is that all the subscription fees are pooled, costs subtracted, and the rest is paid out by the absolute number of streams. 
    But that lumps the person who just keeps a Charts Radio stream running twelve hours a day in with the guy who's a total fan of this obscure underground band from the other side of the world and only listens to his six favourite records whenever he gets a chance to. 
    That guy's money still goes to Drake and Taylor Swift.
    All respect to Drake and Swift; they deserve their accolades, and they certainly deserve to be rich, BUT: They don't deserve this guy's subscription money.

    The payout model MUST be adjusted to account for what a subscriber is actually listening to. The way it is now, there is zero value attached to how individual people value the music they listen to. 

    Of course, that means that EVERY SINGLE LABEL DEAL must be renegotiated. And that's not going to happen for a long time.

    I can't help but wish that Jobs had been around to negotiate the basic deals at the dawn of the streaming era — but he was (rightly) a staunch opponent of the rental model, plus the record industry wasn't going to let him negotiate a fair deal a second time. 


    AND NOW: enter Dolby Atmos. You've got music valued at NOTHING, with no hope of ever recouping investment unless you're a major star, and there's this industry fad that requires investing in expensive, acoustically treated rooms (high five-figure investment) PLUS a studio-grade 7.1 system and the appropriate controllers and software. 

    Yeah, it's nice that Apple is supporting one half of the Dolby Atmos spec in their higher-end earplugs and headphones, standard. They're not paying for production. 
    Sorry, but your premise is bogus. Adjusted for inflation, the price of a vinyl record is surprisingly consistent from the 1960s to today. Purchasing albums on iTunes (yes, you can still do that) is a little cheaper, but as noted previously, there’s no printing, pressing, storage, or distribution costs, so they ought to be a little cheaper. 

    Starting in the 1950s, the biggest selling records were mostly rock-and-roll, a genre aimed squarely at teen-agers. This highly lucrative business was based on selling lots of those records to kids. These things were always a commodity to the major labels. That’s why the pop charts have always been filled with manufactured fluff and one-hit-wonders intended to extract money from customers as rapidly as possible. 

    The idea that records were so expensive that most people only owned two or three and probably didn’t even own a record player is patently ridiculous. You are making things up to facilitate an imagined argument. 

    As for the streaming music model, I feel like we’ve been over this before, but why not? Let’s go again. To use a good but imperfect metaphor, buying physical media or music from iTunes is like  going to a restaurant and ordering from the menu. You pick what you want, pay for it, and your money can be roughly traced to the agricultural producers that grew the things on your plate. Sort of. We’ll get back to that. 

    Streaming music is a buffet. You pay a flat fee and select whatever you want in whatever quantities you want. For the customer who eats a lot, they’ll pay less than ordering from the menu. For the customer who eats a lot less, they’re paying more than they would a la carte. For the restaurant, they’re just concerned with how it averages out. They’ve priced the buffet to cover the overall cost of everything on it, and the lightweights will subsidize the lard-butts. 

    For the farm producers, they’re still just getting paid for the quantities the restaurant orders. The chicken farmer is moving a lot of birds. The beet and asparagus farmers are selling a lot less. 

    Now, here’s where we get back to the reality between the two models. Whether it’s on the buffet or on the menu, the restaurant is going to order a lot of chicken and a lot less beets and asparagus. The restaurant doesn’t keep separate bank accounts to assure that the money collected from the guy who orders nothing but steamed asparagus goes directly to the asparagus farmer and never touches the money going to the chicken farmer. For both the buffet and the menu orders, the restaurant just collects the money, deposits it into the same account, and then looks at how much was consumed of each thing to then use the money in that one account to buy appropriate quantities of each of those items. 

    In no case do they observe that this one guy only eats asparagus and thus pay that guy’s entire $10 buffet purchase amount to the asparagus farmer for 30 grams of asparagus, while separately observing that the fat guy ate four whole fried chickens and a coke, and thus pay the chicken farmer $8 for four whole chickens and the Coca Cola company $2 for the Coke. 

    That’s not how any of this works, and it never will be. 

    In the idyllic days of record stores, if a customer only bought records made by a couple of obscure bands, his purist, discerning purchases didn’t somehow result in the store paying a higher rate per album to those “cool” bands. They still just cleared at best a couple of bucks per album for the 1,387 copies they ever sold, and the record store’s markup went into the same account to keep the doors open so they could continue to move huge quantities of Phil Collins and Madonna records. No matter how much the desperately cool record store clerks cared about the obscure band’s records, it was all units of a commodity, and they only had jobs because Phil and Madonna were killing it.

    P.S. You can record “dry” tracks on a Mac at home, and use plug-ins to simulate the gear and spaces at Abbey Road, and mix and master the whole thing in Atmos. While going to the real place to record with the real gear and actual studio engineers will be better, it’s possible to get close with relatively small investments on the production side, and for the consumer to enjoy the results via the iPhone and ear buds they already own, so you’re exaggerating the issues on that one, too. 
    edited March 2023
  • Reply 18 of 20
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,119member
    spheric said:
    AppleZulu said:
    The reality is it's a hard business and unless you were the Beatles, there's never really been a 'golden age' when everybody made a decent living making music. 

    […]

    So should streaming services pay artists a higher rate? Probably, but the business model actually has the potential to be the most equitable way to pay musicians for recorded music since Thomas Edison started cutting wax cylinders.
    What you write is valid, but I believe you're misunderstanding me:

    I'm not arguing (nor under the illusion) that everybody should be able to make a decent living making music. 

    I'm arguing against the devaluing of music.
    Back in the Beatles' day, records were expensive. Most people, if they had records at all, had maybe two or three albums, and many didn't even have record player on which to play them (they'd take them to parties to play them there). 

    Music was worth a lot, and those who weren't content just listening to radio or going to clubs chose carefully and bought what was important to them. 

    Paying the equivalent of two Starbucks Matcha Latte for EVERYTHING THERE IS means that music ain't worth shit — which simply isn't true, considering how it can make people feel. 
    This needs to change, IMO, and it can. IIRC, people today are paying LESS monthly for their music subscription, than they used to in the days of CDs, on average. 

    So they're getting infinitely more, while actually paying less than they used to. How can this be? It's certainly not the record labels eating the difference. 

    Which brings us to cost of production. Yes, it's possible to make great records with only a MacBook and maybe a microphone, these days, rather than needing a room which cost half a million in 1974 dollars to build. But conversely, that also means that there's so much more out there, that it's impossible to stand out and actually get plays without investing thousands into promotion. 
    (The argument that a studio in a box can be had for $3000 these days, rather than paying $600/day also assumes that the months' or years' work it takes to create is free — and that all music can be created in-the-box, which is a whole 'nother Book of Misconceptions…)

    Which means that, given the business scheme of streaming, is impossible to recoup your costs even if you're moderately successful. 

    A HUGE part of this problem is that the payout scheme works by assuming that music is a commodity, rather than something people care about. 

    The way it works right now is that all the subscription fees are pooled, costs subtracted, and the rest is paid out by the absolute number of streams. 
    But that lumps the person who just keeps a Charts Radio stream running twelve hours a day in with the guy who's a total fan of this obscure underground band from the other side of the world and only listens to his six favourite records whenever he gets a chance to. 
    That guy's money still goes to Drake and Taylor Swift.
    All respect to Drake and Swift; they deserve their accolades, and they certainly deserve to be rich, BUT: They don't deserve this guy's subscription money.

    The payout model MUST be adjusted to account for what a subscriber is actually listening to. The way it is now, there is zero value attached to how individual people value the music they listen to. 

    Of course, that means that EVERY SINGLE LABEL DEAL must be renegotiated. And that's not going to happen for a long time.

    I can't help but wish that Jobs had been around to negotiate the basic deals at the dawn of the streaming era — but he was (rightly) a staunch opponent of the rental model, plus the record industry wasn't going to let him negotiate a fair deal a second time. 


    AND NOW: enter Dolby Atmos. You've got music valued at NOTHING, with no hope of ever recouping investment unless you're a major star, and there's this industry fad that requires investing in expensive, acoustically treated rooms (high five-figure investment) PLUS a studio-grade 7.1 system and the appropriate controllers and software. 

    Yeah, it's nice that Apple is supporting one half of the Dolby Atmos spec in their higher-end earplugs and headphones, standard. They're not paying for production. 
    It may be true that a subscription to music streaming services cost less than buying a CD every month, but that is not what it should be compared to. Most music listeners weren't buying CD'd when streaming became more mainstream, most were downloading music from the likes of iTunes and Amazon. The music industry was still suffering from the big decline in revenue caused by Napster and the internet. But it's now seeing an increase of revenue because of paid music streaming subscriptions. You're forgetting that the music industry made the most revenue when CD's replaced vinyl (and cassette ) as the most popular purchased music media. But when music streaming came along, downloaded music was the most popular way of buying music and the music industry also saw a decline in revenue because with downloaded music because one did not have to buy the whole CD to get the 1 or 2 songs they wanted from it. So instead of paying $12.99 for the whole CD, they only had to pay $1.98 for the 2 songs they wanted from the CD. This is why the cost of an unlimited music streaming subscription shouldn't be compared to the cost of a new CD, but to the cost of 10 songs one wants to buy. For new music, there are plenty of "free" ways to hear new music without paying anyone for a subscription for unlimited music streaming. YouTube, Pandora, radio, free Amazon Music (for Prime members), small sample of songs before purchase from iTunes Store and even "free" ad supported streaming from Spotify, are some of the ways to hear new music without having to pay.

    It's not so much that the artist are paid for the absolute numbers of streams but the percentage of the total streams that that absolute number of streams represent. What happens is that streaming revenue usually stays relatively the same from month to month but the number of total streams could vary by a lot from month to month. It depends if the likes of a Drake or Swift comes out with new mega hits in the month. When they do, the numbers of steams might increase a lot for that month but revenue will remain about the same. So what happens is that, say a small indie artist song usually get streamed 5000 times a month and might earn maybe $50 on an average month. But on a month where both Drake and Swift comes out with hits, the same 5000 stream by might only get $35. That's because that 5000 stream represents a smaller percentage of the total streams for the month Drake and Swift came out with mega hits and each might had capture 10% of the total streams. Thus the indie artist  get a smaller percentage of the total revenue from paid subscriptions. The music industry do not get more revenue when Drake and Swift comes out with mega hits, as the revenue is based on about 70% of the subscription revenue and not per stream by the subscribers. The way it works is that every artist gets the same amount per stream. But because the amount of money to be distributed every month do not go up in direct proportion to the increase in streams when Drake and Swift comes out with hits, the amount all artist receives per stream decreases. It's not like Drake and Swift are getting more per stream, than the other artist.  

    About the only way to change this is to eliminate "unlimited" and charge each subscribers a fixed cost for each stream or a limited number of streams per subscription. Then small the indie artist will really suffer. Not only will many subscribers cancel their subscriptions thus reducing the total subscription revenue but because if the subscribers had to pay for every stream or are limited to the amount of streams, then they're not likely to let the service providers shove music they might not want to hear, down their throat. No way would subscribers then play a playlist of recommended songs created by the provider, that is similar to the music they like to listen to. This is really how many of the relatively unknown artist gets streamed. They are on one or several playlist created by the service providers and since the subscribers are not paying any extra to hear the music on the playlist, it's ..... what the Hell .... let me listen to what's on it. But if it cost the subscribers to listen to every music streamed on those playlist, then it's more like ... no way in Hell I'm going to pay for music I might not like and might never want to listen to again. There is no incentive to discover new music, when the subscribers are going to be charged to do it. And this might do more harm to the small artist, than the "unfair" way streaming royalty is distributed.

    How about if we take your scenario where a subscriber only stream his favorite artist and steam them 500 times in a month, at an average of $.01 per stream to the artist. You seem to think that it's only "fair" that artist should receive all $7 that he paid for his subscription that month, instead of the $5 in streams (500 streams). But what happens if the subscribers streamed his favorite artist 1000 times that month? Who's going to pay the artist for the other 300 streams that is over his 700 streams at $01 per streams ($7 worth). The subscriber is only contributing $7 per month. Do the artist not get pay for the other 300 steams made by this subscriber? Be the artist is Drake, Swift or a small indie artist. Why should the other subscribers that had never ever streamed this artist subsidize that 300 extra streams?

    But downloading free music from the internet is still the cause of the biggest loss for the music industry. Even if only costing $.01 per stream, that's still a lot more than "free", when listening to songs by the hundreds. It's access to the  internet and downloaded digital music, that had made music a commodity. For me and many, I have no problem paying for CD's (and vinyls) of the music I want to listen to and own. Be it new or used CD's (or vinyls). But i would never "rent" that music and not be able to listen to my music when I can no longer afford to pay for a subscription or when the subscription services goes out of business. I fall in Jobs camp that people want to own their music. And so far, there seems to be are of us to prove him right ..... that the subscription model is bankrupt. But even if it's been over ten years, the jury is still out.

    Even back in the days of vinyls, the physical album (with its cover art) adds value to buying the music. There was a big difference between owning the album in your collection and having a cassette of the same music that was recorded off the radio or a friend's album. Even though it's the same music. If you're too young to had ever look for vinyl records to buy by flipping through the record bins at record stores (and later at the Goodwill), then it's hard to explain.  (I was too young to buy records in the 60's but manage to buy hundreds of them in the mid 70's to late 80's. and then mange to buy thousands of them at bargain rate from the Goodwill (and Salvation Army) when people were getting rid of their vinyls and replacing them with "superior" sounding CD's).




  • Reply 19 of 20
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,645member
    AppleZulu said:
    melgross said:
    AppleZulu said:
    spheric said:
    melgross said:
    Spotify continues to generate losses. I’ve been saying for several years that the only companies that will be able to offer music streaming on a large scale will be companies that offer it as a service, as additive to their other, much larger businesses.
    This would be the final nail in the commoditisation of music. 

    In which bizarre universe is the logical business choice simply accepting that there is no way to make any money off streaming business model, and in consequence reducing it to a loss-leading add-on? I mean, rather than figuring that THE FUCKING BUSINESS MODEL DOESN'T WORK? 

    I'm slightly irate over this because at NO POINT in this (mis)judgement of business viability do the interests of those supplying the actual content ever enter into the equation. 

    Oh, so you've built a "business" around ripping us off and giving everything we make away, conditioned customers to expect access to everything for free or ad-free for price of three Starbucks coffees a month, and haven't figured out how to make a profit? 

    Well, now. I have this D-sub tie-line cable that would like a word with you. 
    Apple pays higher royalty rates than Spotify, but I would be very, very surprised if Apple's service isn't profitable. Apple doesn't really do loss-leader businesses. That's why you can't get a cut-rate plastic-screened iPhone for $50. I don't think that the music streaming business model is inherently flawed. Should they pay artists more? Probably. Still, there are a lot of, pardon the pun, apples and oranges comparisons between how streaming and physical media pay artists that don't really account for both sides of both ledgers. Long before the laments about streaming emerged, there were decades worth of horror stories of how artists were screwed over by major labels, and more about how DIY artists lost money pressing their own records and CDs and ended up with garages full of unsold discs.

    The reality is it's a hard business and unless you were the Beatles, there's never really been a 'golden age' when everybody made a decent living making music. Heck, even the Beatles were screwed out of the publishing rights to most of their songwriting catalog. Streaming at least has the potential to be a far better way to pay musicians for recorded music. An artist can only (potentially) make money from a physical album the first time each unit is sold. "Potentially," because record labels pay artists an advance against which they charge the costs of pressing albums until such point their accounting departments can no longer hide the fact that sales have exceeded up-fornt costs and are generating profit. DIY artists trade the advance and smoke-and-mirror accounting for simply paying the actual up-front costs of pressing and distributing records. None of these people were making bank straight out of the gate. "First time each unit is sold," because physical media only pays once, when each unit is first sold. After that, the used market undercuts future sales. Artists make less than nothing from the sale of used copies of their records. They get no royalties from the sale, and each used copy sold could've been a new copy sale that would've paid royalties back to the artist.

    So while it's shocking to look at the fraction of a penny that an artist gets paid for each play of a song on a streaming service, you can't just compare that to the couple of bucks they might eventually get from the sale of a vinyl album. That album only pays once, no matter how many times it gets played. If it goes out of print, the money stops. Streaming pays every time someone plays a track. There's very little up-front cost to getting it uploaded to the streaming services. DIY artists can skip the labels altogether and make decent-sounding recordings at home. Once it's up on the streaming service, it never goes out of print. Use of a 20 year-old song on a popular TV show can generate sudden interest and immediate income for an artist whose album has been physically out-of-print for years. Streaming services also stopped the industry-wide death-spiral of the file-sharing days. Nobody bothers with that crap when they can just find it and listen to it on Apple Music, rather than worrying whether they've remembered to back up their hard-discs full of stolen music files. 

    So should streaming services pay artists a higher rate? Probably, but the business model actually has the potential to be the most equitable way to pay musicians for recorded music since Thomas Edison started cutting wax cylinders.
    I wouldn’t be so sure about Apple’s profits in this. Remember that Apple spends a few hundred million a year writing and updating software that they give away for free with device sales. That list of free software continues to grow, now with the classical app and service. If Apple figures they lose a couple of bucks a months on each Apple Music sub, but makes six bucks a month on increased profits elsewhere because of it, that’s a four buck a month advantage. Software and services are far more squishy than hardware, where costs are much more aligned with sales. 

    If Apple believes that Apple TV series and movie sales and rentals are up because of this, then it’s a win for them. Amazon may feel that their loss leading Prime service brings in so much more in sales that the loss is worthwhile. Google is a giant advertising service that captures every bit of what you do there, including YouTube, Nest and other services. Music tastes is just another thing for them so sell. What does Spotify have? They’ve tried Podcasts, but their costs there have been phenomenal. It raised their sales, but didn’t do a thing to make profits.
    It's very true that Apple often doesn't parse out which divisions are making the most money, and they play the long game, not quarterly report blackjack. That said, there's not much in their history to suggest, even in the 'squishy' service categories, that they'll create a whole division that loses money in the long run, just to prop up the overall combined business. Even the "free" operating system and other software is really just part of the hardware's list price. A MacBook isn't more expensive than  a similarly specced PC notebook just because they can get away with it. You're buying six or seven years' worth of OS and software updates with it. Apple Music is priced separately, and while they may or may not seek much of a margin on it, I doubt they'd plan on routinely losing money with it.
    I doubt they would plan that, but they might accept it, if they found it to be worthwhile.
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