After years of silence, Apple finally reveals how many App Store users it has in Europe

Posted:
in iPhone
The European Digital Services Act is about to be fully enforced, and as part of the law, Apple has been forced to disclose how many users it has in Europe for the first time in five years.

European Union flags
European Union flags


As part of its mandatory reporting for the European Union Digital Services Act (DSA), Apple has been forced to publish discrete user numbers for online services. The values only apply to Europe.
  • iOS App Store: 101 million

  • iPadOS App Store: 23 million

  • macOS App Store: 6 million

  • tvOS App Store: 1 million

  • watchOS App Store: under 1 million

  • Apple Books: under 1 million

  • Podcasts paid subscriptions: under 1 million
There is very nearly a one to one correlation of hardware uses to App Store

Apple is counting each version of the App Store as a distinct user platform under the DSA. As such, only the iOS App Store is subject to being called a "very large online platform" in accordance with the new law.

However, the company says that it will adhere to the DSA for all of its App Stores "because the goals of the DSA align with Apple's goals to protect consumers from illegal content."

Apple's first quarter of 2019 was when Apple no longer reported user numbers. Guidance was issued at the time that discrete hardware sale quantities were less materially relevant as the company had already been shifting to a Services-centric model for years at that point.

Digital Services Act

The Digital Services Act (DSA) is another legislative package that will place restrictions on how tech giants operate. In this case, the DSA focuses much more on online content and moderation.

In a nutshell, the DSA puts additional responsibility on online platforms and tech companies to police content -- including both reporting and taking down illegal content.

According to the provisions of the DSA, regulations will be applied on companies in tiers. The largest firms including those with more than 45 million active users across Europe will see the biggest impacts.

The DSA will require large platforms to carry out an annual analysis on reducing risk associated with "dissemination of illegal content, adverse effects on fundamental rights, manipulation of services having an impact on democratic processes and public security and adverse effects on gender-based violence, and on minors and serious consequences for the physical or mental health of users."

Online marketplaces will also be subject to new transparency rules, and platforms will be required to allow users to opt out of algorithm recommendations that are based on their history and information.

The DSA could potentially have implications for illegal content in iCloud.
The DSA could potentially have implications for illegal content in iCloud.


Additionally, the DSA will ban "dark patterns," or misleading user interfaces such as those that coerce users into subscribing to a platform or making an in-app purchase.

Since Apple doesn't make a search engine or social media platform, it's likely that most core elements of its business model will remain unchanged under the DSA rules. The DSA is much more likely to have a major impact on companies like Meta and Google.

Companies that violate the rules of the DSA could face a fine of up to 6% of their annual global turnover.

Read on AppleInsider
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 22
    red oakred oak Posts: 1,088member
    It is likely Apple is only counting those who visit the App Store (via the app).   If so, it is not a 1:1.    I'm an active iPhone user, but there are months when I do not go into the App Store app 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 22
    Why do the European Union care how many users in Europe Apple has? Shouldn't they only care about how many users are in the European Union (which is a subset of Europe), i.e. the territory they have jurisdiction over?

    The European Digital Services Act is about to be fully enforced, and as part of the law, Apple has been forced to disclose how many users it has in Europe for the first time in five years.

    As part of its mandatory reporting for the European Union Digital Services Act (DSA), Apple has been forced to publish discrete user numbers for online services. The values only apply to Europe.


      williamlondonwatto_cobra
    • Reply 3 of 22
      haikushaikus Posts: 12member
      cocoaken said:
      Why do the European Union care how many users in Europe Apple has? Shouldn't they only care about how many users are in the European Union (which is a subset of Europe), i.e. the territory they have jurisdiction over?

      The European Digital Services Act is about to be fully enforced, and as part of the law, Apple has been forced to disclose how many users it has in Europe for the first time in five years.

      As part of its mandatory reporting for the European Union Digital Services Act (DSA), Apple has been forced to publish discrete user numbers for online services. The values only apply to Europe.


        Perhaps the author decided to use “Europe” in the context of this article as an synecdoche for “European Union”, after mentioning the EU once. 
        beowulfschmidtjellybellychasmAnilu_777watto_cobra
      • Reply 4 of 22
        I assume these figures EXCLUDE the UK, post-Brexit, now they’re not part of Europe?
        williamlondonwatto_cobra
      • Reply 5 of 22
        What is the purpose of forcing a company to publish user numbers for a service?  Does this protect users or otherwise help them in some way?  This is all about control and nothing more. These new regulations will result in less innovation and more convoluted software interfaces.
        edited April 2023 williamlondonDooofuswatto_cobra
      • Reply 6 of 22
        danoxdanox Posts: 2,868member
        What is the purpose of forcing a company to publish user numbers for a service?  Does this protect users or otherwise help them in some way?  This is all about control and nothing more. These new regulations will result in less innovation and more convoluted software interfaces.
        In the end, it will lead to regional Europe only mobile devices.
        watto_cobra
      • Reply 7 of 22
        wdowellwdowell Posts: 229member
        cocoaken said:
        Why do the European Union care how many users in Europe Apple has? Shouldn't they only care about how many users are in the European Union (which is a subset of Europe), i.e. the territory they have jurisdiction over?

        The European Digital Services Act is about to be fully enforced, and as part of the law, Apple has been forced to disclose how many users it has in Europe for the first time in five years.

        As part of its mandatory reporting for the European Union Digital Services Act (DSA), Apple has been forced to publish discrete user numbers for online services. The values only apply to Europe.


          If you read the actual source link (https://www.apple.com/ie/legal/more-resources/dsa/ie/) they write "active recipients of the service in the Union", so its perfectly clear. What is less clear is that because the European Digital Services Act will also apply to the EEA/Switzerland as SM 'adherents', it doesn't seem the users in those countries are all included in Apple's numbers 
          edited April 2023 Anilu_777
        • Reply 8 of 22
          nubusnubus Posts: 384member
          I assume these figures EXCLUDE the UK, post-Brexit, now they’re not part of Europe?
          UK is obviously not part of it more than Russia or Serbia is. A few non-EU countries might be included in the numbers as Norway, Iceland, and Lichtenstein have already decided to join the DSA. Some of the companies or services affected: Alibaba, TikTok, Wikipedia, Booking.com, Zalando (clothing), and obviously Amazon, Apple, Alphabet, Meta, and Microsoft.

          Anilu_777watto_cobra
        • Reply 9 of 22
          chutzpahchutzpah Posts: 392member
          red oak said:
          It is likely Apple is only counting those who visit the App Store (via the app).   If so, it is not a 1:1.    I'm an active iPhone user, but there are months when I do not go into the App Store app 
          Why is that likely?
        • Reply 10 of 22
          haikus said:
          Perhaps the author decided to use “Europe” in the context of this article as an synecdoche for “European Union”, after mentioning the EU once. 
          Cool.  I learned a new word: “synecdoche“.   
          syn·​ec·​do·​che  | \ sə-ˈnek-də-(ˌ)kē. | sin-ek-doe-kay 
          Referring to a whole entity by using a term that refers to a part of the entity.  E.g. head: What was the head-count at the event (people).  Boots: how many boots on the ground (soldiers).  Suits: there were a lot of suits in the room (business-persons). Boards: she’s a great actor on the boards (stage).
          Minor quibble—or question?: The EU would be a part of Europe vs Europe as part of EU. 
          Yet I still got the meaning in the first post with that Europe reference. 

          haikus, I’ll look for more of your posts.  I’m curious what I might come across. 
          elijahgradarthekatAnilu_777haikusmuthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
        • Reply 11 of 22
          davidwdavidw Posts: 2,053member
          What is the purpose of forcing a company to publish user numbers for a service?  Does this protect users or otherwise help them in some way?  This is all about control and nothing more. These new regulations will result in less innovation and more convoluted software interfaces.
          The EU Commission has to keep tabs on the criteria that makes one a "gatekeeper". The EU commission wants to make sure none of the US big 5 techs falls below any of the criteria that they set to ensure that only the US big 5 techs are labeled "gatekeepers". If any of the US big 5 techs drops below any of the thresholds they set, they must convene to lower the threshold set in the DMA, to ensure that the US big 5 techs always remains a "gatekeeper". The DMA allows for this. 

          https://www.ft.com/content/49f3d7f2-30d5-4336-87ad-eea0ee0ecc7b

          >“Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line — one, two, three, four, five — and maybe six with Alibaba,” he said to the Financial Times. “But let’s not start with number 7 to include a European gatekeeper just to please [US president Joe] Biden,” he added. The EU defines “gatekeeper” companies as those which span several countries, have a significant impact on the market, and link large numbers of users to large numbers of businesses. <

          Of course ..... "large number of users" ... is anywhere between the minimum that any of the US big 5 techs have and the maximum of any EU company. If the two numbers overlap, then that criteria will no longer be used to determine a "gatekeeper". 

          And speaking of less innovation, here's a good article bringing up that point.

          https://www.competitionpolicyinternational.com/the-digital-markets-act-the-path-to-overregulation/
          watto_cobra
        • Reply 12 of 22
          avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,691member
          davidw said:
          What is the purpose of forcing a company to publish user numbers for a service?  Does this protect users or otherwise help them in some way?  This is all about control and nothing more. These new regulations will result in less innovation and more convoluted software interfaces.
          The EU Commission has to keep tabs on the criteria that makes one a "gatekeeper". The EU commission wants to make sure none of the US big 5 techs falls below any of the criteria that they set to ensure that only the US big 5 techs are labeled "gatekeepers". If any of the US big 5 techs drops below any of the thresholds they set, they must convene to lower the threshold set in the DMA, to ensure that the US big 5 techs always remains a "gatekeeper". The DMA allows for this. 

          https://www.ft.com/content/49f3d7f2-30d5-4336-87ad-eea0ee0ecc7b

          >“Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line — one, two, three, four, five — and maybe six with Alibaba,” he said to the Financial Times. “But let’s not start with number 7 to include a European gatekeeper just to please [US president Joe] Biden,” he added. The EU defines “gatekeeper” companies as those which span several countries, have a significant impact on the market, and link large numbers of users to large numbers of businesses. <

          Of course ..... "large number of users" ... is anywhere between the minimum that any of the US big 5 techs have and the maximum of any EU company. If the two numbers overlap, then that criteria will no longer be used to determine a "gatekeeper". 

          And speaking of less innovation, here's a good article bringing up that point.

          https://www.competitionpolicyinternational.com/the-digital-markets-act-the-path-to-overregulation/
          We can dispute the criteria used to determine what constitutes a gatekeeper but attempting to draw up conspiracy theories is just wackiness.

          The limits have been set. If an EU based company reaches gatekeeper status it will fall under the legal obligations too. 

          That’s it. 

          My house. My rules. And the same rules for everyone. 

          As far as innovation is concerned, why not simply let the industry play out under the DSA/DMA and then evaluate the situation? 

          Laws are not knocked up forever and unchangeable. They get reviewed. 

          That said major EU directives have often been the model from which others imitate. 

          Care to name a major EU directive that has bombed? How do they stand up when compared to others? Are EU citizens up in arms about them? If they are, I certainly haven't heard about them. 


          muthuk_vanalingam
        • Reply 13 of 22
          chutzpahchutzpah Posts: 392member
          avon b7 said:
          davidw said:
          What is the purpose of forcing a company to publish user numbers for a service?  Does this protect users or otherwise help them in some way?  This is all about control and nothing more. These new regulations will result in less innovation and more convoluted software interfaces.
          The EU Commission has to keep tabs on the criteria that makes one a "gatekeeper". The EU commission wants to make sure none of the US big 5 techs falls below any of the criteria that they set to ensure that only the US big 5 techs are labeled "gatekeepers". If any of the US big 5 techs drops below any of the thresholds they set, they must convene to lower the threshold set in the DMA, to ensure that the US big 5 techs always remains a "gatekeeper". The DMA allows for this. 

          https://www.ft.com/content/49f3d7f2-30d5-4336-87ad-eea0ee0ecc7b

          >“Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line — one, two, three, four, five — and maybe six with Alibaba,” he said to the Financial Times. “But let’s not start with number 7 to include a European gatekeeper just to please [US president Joe] Biden,” he added. The EU defines “gatekeeper” companies as those which span several countries, have a significant impact on the market, and link large numbers of users to large numbers of businesses. <

          Of course ..... "large number of users" ... is anywhere between the minimum that any of the US big 5 techs have and the maximum of any EU company. If the two numbers overlap, then that criteria will no longer be used to determine a "gatekeeper". 

          And speaking of less innovation, here's a good article bringing up that point.

          https://www.competitionpolicyinternational.com/the-digital-markets-act-the-path-to-overregulation/
          We can dispute the criteria used to determine what constitutes a gatekeeper but attempting to draw up conspiracy theories is just wackiness.

          The limits have been set. If an EU based company reaches gatekeeper status it will fall under the legal obligations too. 

          That’s it. 

          My house. My rules. And the same rules for everyone. 

          As far as innovation is concerned, why not simply let the industry play out under the DSA/DMA and then evaluate the situation? 

          Laws are not knocked up forever and unchangeable. They get reviewed. 

          That said major EU directives have often been the model from which others imitate. 

          Care to name a major EU directive that has bombed? How do they stand up when compared to others? Are EU citizens up in arms about them? If they are, I certainly haven't heard about them. 
          The Common Agricultural Policy certainly has its critics, and its freedom of movement guarantee combined with a devolved and haphazard approach to bloc border control creates some problems.
          watto_cobra
        • Reply 14 of 22
          strongystrongy Posts: 19member
          I assume these figures EXCLUDE the UK, post-Brexit, now they’re not part of Europe?
          did you fail geography? the UK is not part of the EU but they haven't moved so they are still a part of Europe
          williamlondonwatto_cobra
        • Reply 15 of 22
          avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,691member
          chutzpah said:
          avon b7 said:
          davidw said:
          What is the purpose of forcing a company to publish user numbers for a service?  Does this protect users or otherwise help them in some way?  This is all about control and nothing more. These new regulations will result in less innovation and more convoluted software interfaces.
          The EU Commission has to keep tabs on the criteria that makes one a "gatekeeper". The EU commission wants to make sure none of the US big 5 techs falls below any of the criteria that they set to ensure that only the US big 5 techs are labeled "gatekeepers". If any of the US big 5 techs drops below any of the thresholds they set, they must convene to lower the threshold set in the DMA, to ensure that the US big 5 techs always remains a "gatekeeper". The DMA allows for this. 

          https://www.ft.com/content/49f3d7f2-30d5-4336-87ad-eea0ee0ecc7b

          >“Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line — one, two, three, four, five — and maybe six with Alibaba,” he said to the Financial Times. “But let’s not start with number 7 to include a European gatekeeper just to please [US president Joe] Biden,” he added. The EU defines “gatekeeper” companies as those which span several countries, have a significant impact on the market, and link large numbers of users to large numbers of businesses. <

          Of course ..... "large number of users" ... is anywhere between the minimum that any of the US big 5 techs have and the maximum of any EU company. If the two numbers overlap, then that criteria will no longer be used to determine a "gatekeeper". 

          And speaking of less innovation, here's a good article bringing up that point.

          https://www.competitionpolicyinternational.com/the-digital-markets-act-the-path-to-overregulation/
          We can dispute the criteria used to determine what constitutes a gatekeeper but attempting to draw up conspiracy theories is just wackiness.

          The limits have been set. If an EU based company reaches gatekeeper status it will fall under the legal obligations too. 

          That’s it. 

          My house. My rules. And the same rules for everyone. 

          As far as innovation is concerned, why not simply let the industry play out under the DSA/DMA and then evaluate the situation? 

          Laws are not knocked up forever and unchangeable. They get reviewed. 

          That said major EU directives have often been the model from which others imitate. 

          Care to name a major EU directive that has bombed? How do they stand up when compared to others? Are EU citizens up in arms about them? If they are, I certainly haven't heard about them. 
          The Common Agricultural Policy certainly has its critics, and its freedom of movement guarantee combined with a devolved and haphazard approach to bloc border control creates some problems.
          No legislation will be free of critics but even the critics can't argue that the CAP hasn't been a success is many, many ways. The fact that is has been around for 60 years now says it all.

          Some criticism is warranted but it wouldn't have been around so long if it had bombed (and the French have turned trashing lorries of Spanish tomatoes into a national past time). 

          Free movement has been one of the quintessential examples of the EU getting things right. Probably the best EU example of the exact opposite of bombing. Once again though, for some people, the very nature of free movement is abhorrent.

          Bloc border control is quite literally a non-issue for anyone with a EU member state identity card or passport, under the treaty regulations. Other considerations can come into play when individual states implement extra controls (as was the case with Covid) but that is normal as each member state retains the right to refuse entry on certain grounds and is provided for in the treaty. Also, member states can suspend Schengen adherence but if you have a valid ID/passport you are good to go. 

          Sadly, after Brexit, I had to return my 'Member of the Union' certificate so free movement is gone for me. 




        • Reply 16 of 22
          chutzpahchutzpah Posts: 392member
          avon b7 said:
          chutzpah said:
          avon b7 said:
          davidw said:
          What is the purpose of forcing a company to publish user numbers for a service?  Does this protect users or otherwise help them in some way?  This is all about control and nothing more. These new regulations will result in less innovation and more convoluted software interfaces.
          The EU Commission has to keep tabs on the criteria that makes one a "gatekeeper". The EU commission wants to make sure none of the US big 5 techs falls below any of the criteria that they set to ensure that only the US big 5 techs are labeled "gatekeepers". If any of the US big 5 techs drops below any of the thresholds they set, they must convene to lower the threshold set in the DMA, to ensure that the US big 5 techs always remains a "gatekeeper". The DMA allows for this. 

          https://www.ft.com/content/49f3d7f2-30d5-4336-87ad-eea0ee0ecc7b

          >“Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line — one, two, three, four, five — and maybe six with Alibaba,” he said to the Financial Times. “But let’s not start with number 7 to include a European gatekeeper just to please [US president Joe] Biden,” he added. The EU defines “gatekeeper” companies as those which span several countries, have a significant impact on the market, and link large numbers of users to large numbers of businesses. <

          Of course ..... "large number of users" ... is anywhere between the minimum that any of the US big 5 techs have and the maximum of any EU company. If the two numbers overlap, then that criteria will no longer be used to determine a "gatekeeper". 

          And speaking of less innovation, here's a good article bringing up that point.

          https://www.competitionpolicyinternational.com/the-digital-markets-act-the-path-to-overregulation/
          We can dispute the criteria used to determine what constitutes a gatekeeper but attempting to draw up conspiracy theories is just wackiness.

          The limits have been set. If an EU based company reaches gatekeeper status it will fall under the legal obligations too. 

          That’s it. 

          My house. My rules. And the same rules for everyone. 

          As far as innovation is concerned, why not simply let the industry play out under the DSA/DMA and then evaluate the situation? 

          Laws are not knocked up forever and unchangeable. They get reviewed. 

          That said major EU directives have often been the model from which others imitate. 

          Care to name a major EU directive that has bombed? How do they stand up when compared to others? Are EU citizens up in arms about them? If they are, I certainly haven't heard about them. 
          The Common Agricultural Policy certainly has its critics, and its freedom of movement guarantee combined with a devolved and haphazard approach to bloc border control creates some problems.
          No legislation will be free of critics but even the critics can't argue that the CAP hasn't been a success is many, many ways. The fact that is has been around for 60 years now says it all.

          Some criticism is warranted but it wouldn't have been around so long if it had bombed (and the French have turned trashing lorries of Spanish tomatoes into a national past time). 
          It's been a great success for France and Germany.  Other countries are not keen on it at all.  The UK hated it.
          Free movement has been one of the quintessential examples of the EU getting things right. Probably the best EU example of the exact opposite of bombing. Once again though, for some people, the very nature of free movement is abhorrent. 

          Bloc border control is quite literally a non-issue for anyone with a EU member state identity card or passport, under the treaty regulations. Other considerations can come into play when individual states implement extra controls (as was the case with Covid) but that is normal as each member state retains the right to refuse entry on certain grounds and is provided for in the treaty. Also, member states can suspend Schengen adherence but if you have a valid ID/passport you are good to go. 
          You've totally misread me there.  I was saying that the freedom of movement guarantee combined with a devolved and haphazard approach to bloc border control creates some problems.  Which it does.  Italy and Greece have had major issues with the EU about the need for its ships to police the Mediterranean, other countries in the east have had similar issues with poorly aligned border controls, and countries (e.g. the UK) have had major issues with the EU about extra-EU (and intra-EU for that matter, though a different subject) immigrants arriving at their doorstep with little control because of Schengen permissiveness.  They aren't solely right wing talking points, though obviously the ring wing gets the most hysterical about them.

          On the subject of Greece, the austerity directive that they were made to follow to qualify for EU aid has been something of a disaster too.
          Sadly, after Brexit, I had to return my 'Member of the Union' certificate so free movement is gone for me. 
          Your what?

          edited April 2023 williamlondonwatto_cobra
        • Reply 17 of 22
          tmaytmay Posts: 6,340member
          avon b7 said:
          chutzpah said:
          avon b7 said:
          davidw said:
          What is the purpose of forcing a company to publish user numbers for a service?  Does this protect users or otherwise help them in some way?  This is all about control and nothing more. These new regulations will result in less innovation and more convoluted software interfaces.
          The EU Commission has to keep tabs on the criteria that makes one a "gatekeeper". The EU commission wants to make sure none of the US big 5 techs falls below any of the criteria that they set to ensure that only the US big 5 techs are labeled "gatekeepers". If any of the US big 5 techs drops below any of the thresholds they set, they must convene to lower the threshold set in the DMA, to ensure that the US big 5 techs always remains a "gatekeeper". The DMA allows for this. 

          https://www.ft.com/content/49f3d7f2-30d5-4336-87ad-eea0ee0ecc7b

          >“Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line — one, two, three, four, five — and maybe six with Alibaba,” he said to the Financial Times. “But let’s not start with number 7 to include a European gatekeeper just to please [US president Joe] Biden,” he added. The EU defines “gatekeeper” companies as those which span several countries, have a significant impact on the market, and link large numbers of users to large numbers of businesses. <

          Of course ..... "large number of users" ... is anywhere between the minimum that any of the US big 5 techs have and the maximum of any EU company. If the two numbers overlap, then that criteria will no longer be used to determine a "gatekeeper". 

          And speaking of less innovation, here's a good article bringing up that point.

          https://www.competitionpolicyinternational.com/the-digital-markets-act-the-path-to-overregulation/
          We can dispute the criteria used to determine what constitutes a gatekeeper but attempting to draw up conspiracy theories is just wackiness.

          The limits have been set. If an EU based company reaches gatekeeper status it will fall under the legal obligations too. 

          That’s it. 

          My house. My rules. And the same rules for everyone. 

          As far as innovation is concerned, why not simply let the industry play out under the DSA/DMA and then evaluate the situation? 

          Laws are not knocked up forever and unchangeable. They get reviewed. 

          That said major EU directives have often been the model from which others imitate. 

          Care to name a major EU directive that has bombed? How do they stand up when compared to others? Are EU citizens up in arms about them? If they are, I certainly haven't heard about them. 
          The Common Agricultural Policy certainly has its critics, and its freedom of movement guarantee combined with a devolved and haphazard approach to bloc border control creates some problems.
          No legislation will be free of critics but even the critics can't argue that the CAP hasn't been a success is many, many ways. The fact that is has been around for 60 years now says it all.

          Some criticism is warranted but it wouldn't have been around so long if it had bombed (and the French have turned trashing lorries of Spanish tomatoes into a national past time). 

          Free movement has been one of the quintessential examples of the EU getting things right. Probably the best EU example of the exact opposite of bombing. Once again though, for some people, the very nature of free movement is abhorrent.

          Bloc border control is quite literally a non-issue for anyone with a EU member state identity card or passport, under the treaty regulations. Other considerations can come into play when individual states implement extra controls (as was the case with Covid) but that is normal as each member state retains the right to refuse entry on certain grounds and is provided for in the treaty. Also, member states can suspend Schengen adherence but if you have a valid ID/passport you are good to go. 

          Sadly, after Brexit, I had to return my 'Member of the Union' certificate so free movement is gone for me. 




          Thanks to the U.S. for "encouraging" the devastated countries of Europe to turn their backs on nationalism, and to forming a "United States of Europe", ie, the EU, with generous funding from the Marshall Plan, all under the protective umbrella provided by the U.S. during the Cold war.

          But every once in awhile, French, German, or British nationalism, works to tear the EU apart, likely with assistance from foreign interlopers, such as Russia wrt Brexit.

          Do better, EU, and yeah, the U.S. does has its own political problems.
          williamlondonwatto_cobra
        • Reply 18 of 22
          avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,691member
          chutzpah said:
          avon b7 said:
          chutzpah said:
          avon b7 said:
          davidw said:
          What is the purpose of forcing a company to publish user numbers for a service?  Does this protect users or otherwise help them in some way?  This is all about control and nothing more. These new regulations will result in less innovation and more convoluted software interfaces.
          The EU Commission has to keep tabs on the criteria that makes one a "gatekeeper". The EU commission wants to make sure none of the US big 5 techs falls below any of the criteria that they set to ensure that only the US big 5 techs are labeled "gatekeepers". If any of the US big 5 techs drops below any of the thresholds they set, they must convene to lower the threshold set in the DMA, to ensure that the US big 5 techs always remains a "gatekeeper". The DMA allows for this. 

          https://www.ft.com/content/49f3d7f2-30d5-4336-87ad-eea0ee0ecc7b

          >“Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line — one, two, three, four, five — and maybe six with Alibaba,” he said to the Financial Times. “But let’s not start with number 7 to include a European gatekeeper just to please [US president Joe] Biden,” he added. The EU defines “gatekeeper” companies as those which span several countries, have a significant impact on the market, and link large numbers of users to large numbers of businesses. <

          Of course ..... "large number of users" ... is anywhere between the minimum that any of the US big 5 techs have and the maximum of any EU company. If the two numbers overlap, then that criteria will no longer be used to determine a "gatekeeper". 

          And speaking of less innovation, here's a good article bringing up that point.

          https://www.competitionpolicyinternational.com/the-digital-markets-act-the-path-to-overregulation/
          We can dispute the criteria used to determine what constitutes a gatekeeper but attempting to draw up conspiracy theories is just wackiness.

          The limits have been set. If an EU based company reaches gatekeeper status it will fall under the legal obligations too. 

          That’s it. 

          My house. My rules. And the same rules for everyone. 

          As far as innovation is concerned, why not simply let the industry play out under the DSA/DMA and then evaluate the situation? 

          Laws are not knocked up forever and unchangeable. They get reviewed. 

          That said major EU directives have often been the model from which others imitate. 

          Care to name a major EU directive that has bombed? How do they stand up when compared to others? Are EU citizens up in arms about them? If they are, I certainly haven't heard about them. 
          The Common Agricultural Policy certainly has its critics, and its freedom of movement guarantee combined with a devolved and haphazard approach to bloc border control creates some problems.
          No legislation will be free of critics but even the critics can't argue that the CAP hasn't been a success is many, many ways. The fact that is has been around for 60 years now says it all.

          Some criticism is warranted but it wouldn't have been around so long if it had bombed (and the French have turned trashing lorries of Spanish tomatoes into a national past time). 
          It's been a great success for France and Germany.  Other countries are not keen on it at all.  The UK hated it.
          Free movement has been one of the quintessential examples of the EU getting things right. Probably the best EU example of the exact opposite of bombing. Once again though, for some people, the very nature of free movement is abhorrent. 

          Bloc border control is quite literally a non-issue for anyone with a EU member state identity card or passport, under the treaty regulations. Other considerations can come into play when individual states implement extra controls (as was the case with Covid) but that is normal as each member state retains the right to refuse entry on certain grounds and is provided for in the treaty. Also, member states can suspend Schengen adherence but if you have a valid ID/passport you are good to go. 
          You've totally misread me there.  I was saying that the freedom of movement guarantee combined with a devolved and haphazard approach to bloc border control creates some problems.  Which it does.  Italy and Greece have had major issues with the EU about the need for its ships to police the Mediterranean, other countries in the east have had similar issues with poorly aligned border controls, and countries (e.g. the UK) have had major issues with the EU about extra-EU (and intra-EU for that matter, though a different subject) immigrants arriving at their doorstep with little control because of Schengen permissiveness.  They aren't solely right wing talking points, though obviously the ring wing gets the most hysterical about them.

          On the subject of Greece, the austerity directive that they were made to follow to qualify for EU aid has been something of a disaster too.
          Sadly, after Brexit, I had to return my 'Member of the Union' certificate so free movement is gone for me. 
          Your what?

          Any common policy is likely to have detractors. That the UK could be one of those isn't surprising but the 'common' part is key here. They are necessary and if you really dig down into complex policy measures, you will always hit on something that someone likes but someone else doesn't. The real point is to see what the common goals are and if they are being met. 60 years of CAP at least shows something is right. It is the same with the common fishing policy. 

          The French and Germans have every right to be smiling for some reasons (total farmland for example) but like I said, that does not stop French farmers from stopping Spanish lorries and emptying their contents whenever they throw a tantrum. 

          I dare say that going forward, had Brexit not happened, the UK would have benefited greatly from the CAP in relation to climate change and the protections the CAP offers to climate related crop destruction as extreme weather events become commonplace.

          Such is the complexity of CAP issues, and this is very telling, that the post Brexit UK hasn't been able to agree on a perfect agricultural solution even without having to take EU considerations into account, and a dark farming-policy-shadow looms large over any major trade deal with the US which will want to dilute the food safety protections (and much more) afforded through the CAP. 

          In terms of border control, things are fine in general terms. Illegal immigration isn't something that free movement really covers. 

          Spain and Italy have been complaining for decades about illegal immigration from North Africa. The refugee crises from several conflicts puts the focus back onto the issue from time to time but those crises are exceptional events that require exceptional measures. The day-to-day process of illegal immigration is not really that much of an issue in absolute terms and it is exactly why so little has been done over the last 30 years.

          Illegal immigrants aren't really coming in from border control points where controls are strict.

          They are coming over thousands of kilometres of largely impossible to control land and coastlines. It's why there have been more attempts to deal with illegal immigration at source of origin. That is something that free movement cannot contemplate because its focus is on legal movement of EU citizens (which do use border control points when they exist), not illegal immigrants.

          In that context, free movement has been a great success even if illegal immigrants may find it 'easier' to move around certain areas once they get through the so-called hard border.

          The reality is that excepting those strict border checks, other checks are still in place within national borders but little to no action is actually taken by member state governments and they include the ones that actually complain about the situation. Spain especially. If anything, once someone reaches your territory, authorities tend to be 'welcoming'. There are endless opportunities to find and expel illegal immigrants but often they are simply not enforced. 

          Locals will often complain about what they see as immigrants walking in and sucking everything they can out of public services but in absolute terms it is basically insignificant unless you happen to be in an area that is full of such cases (again, very rare) and the in-your-face nature of the situation affects your viewpoint because even in those places, most of them are actually contributing to society. Some agricultural areas of Spain are chock full of migrants and illegals are among them but they are doing work the locals don't want to do. 

          What I mean is that your 'combined with a' only represents a tiny fraction of what free movement is all about. In reality it has basically very little to do with the concept of free movement as a goal itself. 

          There are specific immigration laws for that. 

          Of course, my opinion is based on over 30 years living and benefitting from free movement so yes, I'm pro EU. I was sad to see my free movement end. 

          The certificate of Member of the Union is an official certificate which is obligatory for EU nationals living here permanently. It basically certifies you as a citizen of an EU member state and makes life very easy in many everyday situations. I've had places like banks ask for it. Even demand it. Some institutions will even ask for it even if it isn't officially required. 

          I've had plenty of fights with bank employees over me having a valid tax ID number but with no identification with the same number. Ironically, and as a result of Brexit, I do have an identity card with my NIE now. 

          muthuk_vanalingam
        • Reply 19 of 22
          avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,691member
          tmay said:
          avon b7 said:
          chutzpah said:
          avon b7 said:
          davidw said:
          What is the purpose of forcing a company to publish user numbers for a service?  Does this protect users or otherwise help them in some way?  This is all about control and nothing more. These new regulations will result in less innovation and more convoluted software interfaces.
          The EU Commission has to keep tabs on the criteria that makes one a "gatekeeper". The EU commission wants to make sure none of the US big 5 techs falls below any of the criteria that they set to ensure that only the US big 5 techs are labeled "gatekeepers". If any of the US big 5 techs drops below any of the thresholds they set, they must convene to lower the threshold set in the DMA, to ensure that the US big 5 techs always remains a "gatekeeper". The DMA allows for this. 

          https://www.ft.com/content/49f3d7f2-30d5-4336-87ad-eea0ee0ecc7b

          >“Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line — one, two, three, four, five — and maybe six with Alibaba,” he said to the Financial Times. “But let’s not start with number 7 to include a European gatekeeper just to please [US president Joe] Biden,” he added. The EU defines “gatekeeper” companies as those which span several countries, have a significant impact on the market, and link large numbers of users to large numbers of businesses. <

          Of course ..... "large number of users" ... is anywhere between the minimum that any of the US big 5 techs have and the maximum of any EU company. If the two numbers overlap, then that criteria will no longer be used to determine a "gatekeeper". 

          And speaking of less innovation, here's a good article bringing up that point.

          https://www.competitionpolicyinternational.com/the-digital-markets-act-the-path-to-overregulation/
          We can dispute the criteria used to determine what constitutes a gatekeeper but attempting to draw up conspiracy theories is just wackiness.

          The limits have been set. If an EU based company reaches gatekeeper status it will fall under the legal obligations too. 

          That’s it. 

          My house. My rules. And the same rules for everyone. 

          As far as innovation is concerned, why not simply let the industry play out under the DSA/DMA and then evaluate the situation? 

          Laws are not knocked up forever and unchangeable. They get reviewed. 

          That said major EU directives have often been the model from which others imitate. 

          Care to name a major EU directive that has bombed? How do they stand up when compared to others? Are EU citizens up in arms about them? If they are, I certainly haven't heard about them. 
          The Common Agricultural Policy certainly has its critics, and its freedom of movement guarantee combined with a devolved and haphazard approach to bloc border control creates some problems.
          No legislation will be free of critics but even the critics can't argue that the CAP hasn't been a success is many, many ways. The fact that is has been around for 60 years now says it all.

          Some criticism is warranted but it wouldn't have been around so long if it had bombed (and the French have turned trashing lorries of Spanish tomatoes into a national past time). 

          Free movement has been one of the quintessential examples of the EU getting things right. Probably the best EU example of the exact opposite of bombing. Once again though, for some people, the very nature of free movement is abhorrent.

          Bloc border control is quite literally a non-issue for anyone with a EU member state identity card or passport, under the treaty regulations. Other considerations can come into play when individual states implement extra controls (as was the case with Covid) but that is normal as each member state retains the right to refuse entry on certain grounds and is provided for in the treaty. Also, member states can suspend Schengen adherence but if you have a valid ID/passport you are good to go. 

          Sadly, after Brexit, I had to return my 'Member of the Union' certificate so free movement is gone for me. 




          Thanks to the U.S. for "encouraging" the devastated countries of Europe to turn their backs on nationalism, and to forming a "United States of Europe", ie, the EU, with generous funding from the Marshall Plan, all under the protective umbrella provided by the U.S. during the Cold war.

          But every once in awhile, French, German, or British nationalism, works to tear the EU apart, likely with assistance from foreign interlopers, such as Russia wrt Brexit.

          Do better, EU, and yeah, the U.S. does has its own political problems.
          Now there is a twisted view of reality if ever there was one. LOL. 

          Yes, the US does have its political problems but a lot of what reaches me paints a far worse picture of a broken, divided society in decay.

          That may be exaggerated and distorted but that's the image we get here. 
          muthuk_vanalingam
        • Reply 20 of 22
          yojimbo007yojimbo007 Posts: 1,165member
          Beyond all above discussions … why is the penalty 6% of global  returns.. when is just and EU initiative .
          watto_cobra
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