No confirmation of any WMDs, many false alarms.
So far the US has not confirmed finding any chemical, biological or nuclear weapons. Meanwhile, many irresponsible knee-jerk accusations have been consistently proved wrong. At this point, the US has become the boy that cried wolf. US forces have lost all credibility whatsoever. The Plutonium/Uranium fiasco is one of the most blatant examples of unprofessionalism, prejudice and ignorance.
Remember the mobile labs? Yet another false alarm.
What do you believe would be the impact, and what do you believe should be done if no significant cache of weapons or signs of weapons programs are found in Iraq? Keep in mind that the US officially went to war because of WMD, and not because of humanitarian concerns.
If no WMD are found, should Bush be excused for being so blatantly wrong and starting a war based on his mistakes and/or lies?
Remember the mobile labs? Yet another false alarm.
What do you believe would be the impact, and what do you believe should be done if no significant cache of weapons or signs of weapons programs are found in Iraq? Keep in mind that the US officially went to war because of WMD, and not because of humanitarian concerns.
If no WMD are found, should Bush be excused for being so blatantly wrong and starting a war based on his mistakes and/or lies?
Comments
There's no way to EVER know what WOULD have happened if nothing had been done...
I for one feel for those we and they both lost but there was nothing you nor I could have done to stop what has or had happened.
Mac Guru
Originally posted by tonton
...
Remember the mobile labs? Yet another false alarm
...
Why is this "Yet another false alarm". As fas as I can tell we don't know what those were for. Could be a true alarm we just don't know yet. And also there may be "mobile labs" yet to find.
Originally posted by Scott
God it was going to take Hans Blix months and month and now everyone wants to US to pull a rabit out of a fox hole in three week.
....a very good point.
Also they may not want to spook anyone who would have reason to cut and run---I would imagine the "52-card pickup" would be harder with the Iraqi's knowing that we know what they have been up to.
They'll probably sneak up on this one.
Originally posted by Scott
God it was going to take Hans Blix months and month and now everyone wants to US to pull a rabit out of a fox hole in three week.
Wasn't one of the points of invading that it would be faster?
If there are no WMD's found, Bush should be tried as a war criminal. (Notice the emphasis on "if.") I don't buy the "well, there's no telling what he might have done if..." argument. That's a weak justification and a thinnly veiled promotion of the pre-emption view of foreign policy. Oh, wait.... that is the US's official stance on foreign policy now... So, who's next on the list of "they might have bad things in the future" targets?
Originally posted by Scott
Yea I'm expecting that too Eugene. You know the arab world will flat out refuse to believe anything found in Iraq was there before the war started. Half of Europe and all of France will think the US planted it too.
It is only realistic to bear this scenario in mind: The DEA, for example, plant evidence on a regular basis when they can't find drugs in a dealer's/user's home they need to bust. This WMD search is very similar, in that there is an unmonitored police force doing the search, whose bosses badly need the evidence to provide some justification for their actions.
Does anyone really expect honesty, impartiality and accuracy to be the order of the day...specially in light of the numerous lies, exaggerations and fabrications told to the people re. the WMDs in Iraq before the war? We've probably all forgotten the faked documents re. Uranium from Niger, photoshopped mobile bioweapons labs, 15-yr old student dissertations as "current intelligence", "Iraqi phonecalls" manufactured in a recording studio using "ProTools" and other audio processing (talking about nerve gas etc), and others. But I don't watch Fox news, so I guess none of that inconvenient stuff made it there.
Originally posted by sammi jo
Does anyone really expect honesty, impartiality and accuracy to be the order of the day...specially in light of the numerous lies, exaggerations and fabrications told to the people re. the WMDs in Iraq before the war? We've probably all forgotten the faked documents re. Uranium from Niger, photoshopped mobile bioweapons labs, 15-yr old student dissertations as "current intelligence", "Iraqi phonecalls" manufactured in a recording studio using "ProTools" and other audio processing (talking about nerve gas etc), and others. But I don't watch Fox news, so I guess none of that inconvenient stuff made it there.
sammi jo, I'm as against this war as the next AI'er, but I need some evidence of these things occurring. I'd love to see some. Seriously.
Originally posted by torifile
sammi jo, I'm as against this war as the next AI'er, but I need some evidence of these things occurring. I'd love to see some. Seriously.
And you'd have to believe the embedded journalists are part of the conspiracy since some of them are actually there to witness these discoveries...OR SO THEY SAY.
however, this thread will be a good one to debate in in a few months if nothing is found.
until then? too many excuses for people to play with to get anywhere.
Originally posted by torifile
sammi jo, I'm as against this war as the next AI'er, but I need some evidence of these things occurring. I'd love to see some. Seriously.
OK, here's a few...the result of a 10 minute search in google alone. I just cannot find any of these stories on FOX though....I wonder why
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews...l&siteid=50143
http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World...0208_1486.html
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/forei...892070,00.html
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020927-500715.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...9011-2003Mar22
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/02/08/in...64210aa44bb7a1
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0302/S00061.htm
http://www.abc22.com/news/index.php?story=2427
+
http://news.messages.yahoo.com/bbs?....thr=3421&dir=d a nice pair!
http://english.pravda.ru/main/2003/02/12/43306.html
http://www.latimes.com/la-fg-noqaeda...,4538810.story
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/pol...p?story=379087
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/news-cnnedit.html
http://rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/s...k_c.guest.html
Originally posted by alcimedes
the biggest problem with conspiracy theories is that there would have to be too many people involved to keep them all quiet.
This attitude really gets my goat.
When did 'conspiracy theory' become the complacent conservative codephrase for 'ignore the man behind the curtain'?
Conspiracies happen all the time. This is a fact. Read some history books (or a newspaper).
More governments were changed in the 20th Century by coups etc. than by democracy. These are, by definition, conspiracies.
The executives of Enron told their staff to buy stock in the company while they were offloading their own onto the market in anticipation of the crash they knew was coming. There was a wave of fraudulent accounting practices amongst big business. Billions in debits and credits being created or swept under the rug by the actions of a few people. What other word for this is there than conspiracy?
"Group of people getting together and using their power, influence and inside knowledge to mislead and defraud another group of people for their own benefit theories" just isn't catchy enough.
The UK, in its very own War against Terror, repeatedly(!) put Irish men and women in jail on the basis of fabricated evidence and forced confessions. The ones that didn't die in prison may have got their life back after nearly 20 years of appeals proved the evidence was bunk, but I don't remember anyone being charged or convicted of perverting the course of justice by putting them, rather than the real perpetrators, in jail.
It has been shown that Pearl Harbour was engineered and the incident in the Gulf of Tonkin invented in order to drag the US into WWII and Vietnam respectively.
The President of the United States lied repeatedly to the American people in the build up to war. This is proven, repeatedly, and yet he continues to do so and this isn't a conspiracy, why?
Just because it was handled ineptly and the general populace doesn't seem to give a monkeys doesn't mean groups of powerful people haven't got together and discussed lying to the American people to further their own aims.
Originally posted by tonton
If no WMD are found, should Bush be excused for being so blatantly wrong and starting a war based on his mistakes and/or lies?
I don't think so. We did get a nice little side benefit of ridding those people of a guy who was - by all accounts - a pretty bad egg. He needed to go and one of the things I kept hearing about anyway was "regime change". We did that, so I think most people look at this as a good thing so far.
And the searches aren't over. No telling what we'll find now that we can look anywhere we want and aren't subject to the whims and rules of various minders and guides, like the inspectors were.
People, don't lose perspective: it's been ONE month. The first Gulf War took longer and that was just driving some troops out of a another, smaller country.
We go into Iraq, march right to Baghdad, capture or accept the surrender of a ton of their "elite" troops, disperse food and humanitarian aid along the way, go out of our way to avoid injuring/killing civilians, are welcomed by many, make two powerful strikes on places we thought Saddam was and - dead or alive - he's gone. In THREE WEEKS. I find that pretty amazing, no matter what side of this you come down on. It wasn't a "bloodbath", "millions of innocent people" weren't killed, the elite Republican Guard didn't put up much of a fight, we didn't level Baghdad, etc.
Originally posted by torifile
Wasn't one of the points of invading that it would be faster?
IfSo, who's next on the list of "they might have bad things in the future" targets?
The Bush administration has already answered that question. Syria. Too bad we(USA) aren't held to the same standard as we hold others.
Originally posted by Scott
You know the arab world will flat out refuse to believe anything found in Iraq was there before the war started.
Good point. Maybe we should let a multi-lateral coalition like the U.N. go in and verify these things so the Arab world can trust the outcome?
Originally posted by alcimedes
the biggest problem with conspiracy theories is that there would have to be too many people involved to keep them all quiet.
If this were true why is it that even though the fake Nigeria documents were discovered those involved in the 'conspiracy' haven't just spilled the beans? I mean, the documents were faked and everyone now knows it, but even now it's still all kept quiet.
but don't think there wouldn't be ramifications if none are found. colin powell guaranteed it in front of the u.n. and no one is going to forget that, or let the bush administration have a pass just because he rid the world of a despot.
hey wait! maybe the WMD's have been looted! "i don't know what it is margot, but it sure glows purty!"
Originally posted by Eugene
And you'd have to believe the embedded journalists are part of the conspiracy since some of them are actually there to witness these discoveries...OR SO THEY SAY.
You do know that every report made by embedded journalists is only released once it has been approved by the pentagon / military reps?
This article will give you an idea of how others in the media view embedded journalists:
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/...623/index.html