Apple threatens to remove Jack Dorsey-backed Damus app over in-app transactions

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in General Discussion

Apple has already made it known that it's not a fan of in-app cryptocurrency transfers, and now it's banging that drum again for a decentralized social messaging app backed by Twitter co-founder Jack Dorsey.

Apple App Store
Apple App Store



The app is called Damus, and it's based on the decentralized social network Nostr. With that specific integration, Damus is capable of sending in-app micro donations via Bitcoin to other users.

Sending Bitcoin is handled by the Lightning Network, which means users can send fractions of Bitcoins to one another instantly and "almost" free of charge. These specific transactions are known as "zaps" on the social network.

Damus has been ordered by Apple to remove this particular feature from messages, according to The Street. The company has notified the decentralized social messaging app that they may be removed from the App Store if they do not comply, but they can remain in the digital storefront if they remove the feature within 14 days of the notice.

On Twitter, the official Damus account tweeted:

Damus will be removed from the app store in 14 days, apple says zaps are not allowed on their platform because they *could* be used by content creators to sell digital content. This is right before we're about to give our talk at the oslo freedom forum on how decentralized social pic.twitter.com/uAK1U0UBet

-- Damus (@damusapp)



Apple says the ability to send these micro transactions via the app is "selling digital content," which is not allowed. However, the Damus account did twee that "zaps on profiles" are still allowed.

Dorsey tweeted in response to the Damus account that Apple is "incorrect" in its definition of "zaps," and that sending the fractional Bitcoin to other users is "tipping," and a "form of feedback." He says that it's a general misunderstanding on Apple's part.

Twitter CEO Elon Musk tweeted out in response to the situation, saying, "If Apple competes against the whole world, Apple will have the whole world against it. This is not a winning scenario." He would go on to note Apple's App Store tax of 30% on in-app transactions is a "major concern."

Musk purchased Twitter in 2022, while Dorsey is the co-founder of the microblogging social network. The pair of billionaires have had their issues in the past, but appear to be on the same page regarding this particular situation.

As mentioned above, this isn't the first time Apple has found itself in similar waters. The company has said Coinbase "gas" fees as in-app transactions, which should be under Apple's umbrella tax. And NFT trading companies avoid the App Store due to Apple's tax, saying the rules in place from the company make existing in the digital storefront "untenable."

Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 18
    chutzpahchutzpah Posts: 392member
    How many companies need to fail and crypto bros need to go to jail before this entire nonsense is dead and buried?
    chasmpeterhartronnspock1234StrangeDaysFileMakerFellerpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 18
    robin huberrobin huber Posts: 3,989member
    The rise of the neo neocons. 
    edited June 2023 ronnFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 18
    spock1234spock1234 Posts: 161member
    Hey Dorsey, Remember what you told regular Americans who didn't like what you were doing at Twitter - "If you don't like it, go build your own social media site"? Time to take your own advice. Go build your own App store, you entitled pr!ck.
    StrangeDaysFileMakerFellerpscooter63watto_cobraJaiOh81
  • Reply 4 of 18
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 2,288member
    chutzpah said:
    How many companies need to fail and crypto bros need to go to jail before this entire nonsense is dead and buried?

    Are you suggesting that cryptocurrency is a joke? Or am I misinterpreting your comment?

  • Reply 5 of 18
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 2,288member
    spock1234 said:
    Hey Dorsey, Remember what you told regular Americans who didn't like what you were doing at Twitter - "If you don't like it, go build your own social media site"? Time to take your own advice. Go build your own App store, you entitled pr!ck.

    Under normal circumstances, I'd agree with you, but in this case, I think that Apple is wrong. They are stepping way over a line with this demand, to the point of being a brutal dictator.

    FileMakerFellerwilliamlondon
  • Reply 6 of 18
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 2,288member

    Regarding the 30%, I've always gone to bat for Apple, but now I think it's time for them to seriously reconsider the rates. For digital goods (eg. game credits, etc.), Apple should NOT be collecting 30% of EVERY transaction! If I spend $4.00 in a game, why does Apple deserve $1.20 of that? Those transactions should have a much lower cut... say 5%... enough to cover credit card processing.

    I fully agree with Apple charging a tax on apps sold in their store, but in-app purchases for digital goods doesn't cost Apple much of anything.

    I make absolutely ZERO in-app purchases because developers are charging too much, likely because of the 30% cut going to Apple. (Yes, I know it's lower in some cases).

    williamlondon
  • Reply 7 of 18
    chutzpahchutzpah Posts: 392member
    chutzpah said:
    How many companies need to fail and crypto bros need to go to jail before this entire nonsense is dead and buried?

    Are you suggesting that cryptocurrency is a joke? Or am I misinterpreting your comment?
    I’m suggesting it’s awful through and through and needs to stop and shame on anyone who has anything to do with such obvious bullshit.
    foregoneconclusionStrangeDaysFileMakerFellerpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 18
    chutzpahchutzpah Posts: 392member
    spock1234 said:
    Hey Dorsey, Remember what you told regular Americans who didn't like what you were doing at Twitter - "If you don't like it, go build your own social media site"? Time to take your own advice. Go build your own App store, you entitled pr!ck.

    Under normal circumstances, I'd agree with you, but in this case, I think that Apple is wrong. They are stepping way over a line with this demand, to the point of being a brutal dictator.
    You might want to look up what the word brutal means, because curating an App Store sure ain’t it.
    foregoneconclusionStrangeDayswilliamlondonpscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 18
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,948member
    chutzpah said:
    How many companies need to fail and crypto bros need to go to jail before this entire nonsense is dead and buried?
    Are you suggesting that cryptocurrency is a joke? Or am I misinterpreting your comment?
    Yes, it is a joke. Good for pyramid schemes and money laundering.  
    pscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 18
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,948member

    Regarding the 30%, I've always gone to bat for Apple, but now I think it's time for them to seriously reconsider the rates. For digital goods (eg. game credits, etc.), Apple should NOT be collecting 30% of EVERY transaction! If I spend $4.00 in a game, why does Apple deserve $1.20 of that? Those transactions should have a much lower cut... say 5%... enough to cover credit card processing.

    I fully agree with Apple charging a tax on apps sold in their store, but in-app purchases for digital goods doesn't cost Apple much of anything.

    I make absolutely ZERO in-app purchases because developers are charging too much, likely because of the 30% cut going to Apple. (Yes, I know it's lower in some cases).

    Here we go again. You aren’t paying just for credit card processing. You paying rent for the entire infrastructure that built this brand new market place that never existed before and which you’d like to profit on top of. Like a shopping mall, vendors must pay rent. 

    If there were no charge on in-app purchases, all apps would be priced at $0 and charge everything via IAP. 
    FileMakerFellerpscooter63watto_cobraJaiOh81
  • Reply 11 of 18
    maximking said:
    JP234 said:
    Them's the rules. If you don't want to obey the rules, run for president (if you win, you can't be indicted while in office)!

    That's brilliant!

    The downside is that you must be a US-born citizen living in the US. Some of us wouldn't make that trade-off.
    watto_cobraJaiOh81
  • Reply 12 of 18
    williamlondonwilliamlondon Posts: 1,378member
    spock1234 said:
    Hey Dorsey, Remember what you told regular Americans who didn't like what you were doing at Twitter - "If you don't like it, go build your own social media site"? Time to take your own advice. Go build your own App store, you entitled pr!ck.

    ...to the point of being a brutal dictator.

    Hyperbole much?
    pscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 18
    spock1234 said:
    Hey Dorsey, Remember what you told regular Americans who didn't like what you were doing at Twitter - "If you don't like it, go build your own social media site"? Time to take your own advice. Go build your own App store, you entitled pr!ck.
    Too bad Apple doesn’t allow any competition… or are you suggesting they also make their own phone too? I’m sure you’d have tens of people lining up to buy a phone that isn’t iOS or Android…

    Apple having the monopoly they do is a real problem.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 14 of 18
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,081member

    Regarding the 30%, I've always gone to bat for Apple, but now I think it's time for them to seriously reconsider the rates. For digital goods (eg. game credits, etc.), Apple should NOT be collecting 30% of EVERY transaction! If I spend $4.00 in a game, why does Apple deserve $1.20 of that? Those transactions should have a much lower cut... say 5%... enough to cover credit card processing.

    I fully agree with Apple charging a tax on apps sold in their store, but in-app purchases for digital goods doesn't cost Apple much of anything.

    I make absolutely ZERO in-app purchases because developers are charging too much, likely because of the 30% cut going to Apple. (Yes, I know it's lower in some cases).

    So let me get this straight.

    Say in the past, a person playing Fortnite (by Epic Games)  on iOS made an IAP of $4 ($8 in Fortnite virtual bucks) for a virtual outfit that looks "cooler" than the ones that came free with the Fortnite game, that was available for free in the Apple App Store. 

    Apple would have gotten a $1.30 commission for their part in ..... creating and constantly improving their mobile hardware to play games on, ....  creating, maintaining and constantly improving iOS that runs on their mobile hardware, ..... supplying the software and SDK's nearly for free to developers, so they can profit from creating apps for iOS, ..... provides a seamless way for all developers to charge and collect payments (including the proper taxes) from their customers (not every developer have their own payment system already set up.) , pays for the CC  transaction fees, ...... spending 100's of millions of dollars every year to attract new iOS users and to keep current iOS users from switching, ....... maintain an app store where any developer can list their software for free (providing they meet Apple App Store policies) ...... and making it so that iOS users can seamlessly download and install apps without fear of having their devices infected with malware/spyware or having to supply their CC info to a third party.

    While Epic on the other hand kept $3.70 for providing the Fortnite player with a "cooler" looking "virtual" outfit that cost no more to make and supply than the free outfits that came with their free Fortnite game. It's not like shipping is expensive or they must cover damages and losses during shipping or there are a lot of returns due to players ordering the wrong size or they run the risk of overstocking these $4 "cooler" looking virtual outfits in a rented warehouse or that they are perishable with a short shelf life so new ones have to be ordered every so often to replace spoiled supply. How much do you think it cost Epic to make another digital copy of an outfit that they have probably already sold 10's of 1000's of, once they made the original one? Would you tell Sweeney (CEO of Epic) that he shouldn't be charging $3.70 for something that doesn't cost much of anything? Surely you must think this when they charge $10 ($20 in Fortnite bucks and $7 in real dollars after commission.) for an even "cooler" looking "limited edition" virtual outfit. 

    https://okuha.com/are-digital-products-profitable/

    And you think Apple was the one charging too much on that $4 IAP? Get a clue.  

    FYI- Most, if not all, of the most profitable games uses the razor/blade business model. That is to give away or sell the razor at a loss and make a ton of money selling the blades for it. And it's a highly successful business model, when done correctly. These developers give away their games with the hopes of making up for it with IAP in the game. These developers didn't pay Apple anything to give away their iOS game apps, using the Apple App Store. Free apps that are fully functional on iOS devices. Thus Apple is entitle to make up for that with their commission. (Over 93% of apps in the Apple App Store are free.) And the likes of Epic Games, are titled to charge what they can for IAP because there are lots of consumers like you, that will not spend money on IAP, even though they installed and are using their free apps.  

    williamlondon
  • Reply 15 of 18
    chutzpahchutzpah Posts: 392member
    davidw said:

    Say in the past, a person playing Fortnite (by Epic Games)  on iOS made an IAP of $4 ...

    Apple would have gotten a $1.30 commission for their part in ..... 

    While Epic on the other hand kept $3.70 for...
    Nice math there
    muthuk_vanalingamwilliamlondon
  • Reply 16 of 18
    spock1234 said:
    Hey Dorsey, Remember what you told regular Americans who didn't like what you were doing at Twitter - "If you don't like it, go build your own social media site"? Time to take your own advice. Go build your own App store, you entitled pr!ck.
    Too bad Apple doesn’t allow any competition…
    Apple has plenty of competition. iOS (let alone Apple products and services in general) doesn't even have a majority marketshare in most of the world.
    or are you suggesting they also make their own phone too? I’m sure you’d have tens of people lining up to buy a phone that isn’t iOS or Android…
    Are you suggesting that creating an entirely new ecosystem of hardware, software, and services, plus all the infrastructure and employees required to maintain it, nearly from scratch, is hard? That it might take a lot of time and cost a lot of money? 
    edited June 2023 williamlondon
  • Reply 17 of 18
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,081member
    chutzpah said:
    davidw said:

    Say in the past, a person playing Fortnite (by Epic Games)  on iOS made an IAP of $4 ...

    Apple would have gotten a $1.30 commission for their part in ..... 

    While Epic on the other hand kept $3.70 for...
    Nice math there

    This is what happens when it's early in the morning and I decided to change the numbers after already beginning to type my comment and being a bad typist. I first started out with $5 IAP thinking $1.50 and $3.50 were easy numbers to work with. But in the middle I decided to change it to a $4 IAP, like mentioned in the OP. I meant to change my already typed $1.50 to $1.20 but didn't notice I mistyped in $1.30. But I didn't go back to change the $5 IAP to $4 yet. Then when I got to the second half of the comment, I deducted (what I thought was correct) $1.30 from $5 to get $3.70, forgetting that I was going to changed it to a $4 IAP. And then just used the $3.70 later again. And lastly, I retyped the changed $5 IAP to $4. Not remembering that I still used $5 for a calculation in the second half of my comment. When I did the proof read, I mainly concentrate on spelling and grammar (my usually weak points) and with so little math (and basic math at that.), I didn't even bother to re- check my numbers.

    I think I would have been OK if i stuck with my original $5 IAP.  I wish I had a more legitimate excuse ...... like the effect of alcohol.  But i still got my points across. Bad math and all. 
    muthuk_vanalingam
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