Germany approves $11 billion TSMC chip factory

Posted:
in General Discussion

Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company has been working to expand its manufacturing footprint for quite some time, and now it has a major factory deal in Germany set in motion.

TSMC plant
TSMC plant



TSMC is one of the largest semiconductor manufacturers on the planet, and works with a variety of different companies for their chip needs. Of course, one of the largest partners is Apple, but TSMC has ambitions beyond the Cupertino-based company's yearly requirements.

A new chip factory in Germany will cost upwards of $11 billion, with TSMC itself committing 3.5 billion euros, or $3.8 billion towards the effort, according to Reuters. Once the factory is up and running, it will be TSMC's first in Europe, and just the third for the company outside of Taiwan and China.

Germany sees a path to foster a more domestic approach to semiconductor manufacturing, especially for its automotive future in a bid to stay competitive in that market. This new plant is part of a wider movement by the European Union, which recently approved the European Chips Act that offers a 43 billion euro subsidy plan to propel domestic chip making.

Germany itself will be contributing 5 billion euros to the factory that will ultimately be built in Dresden.

TSMC continues to make deals that sees the chipmaker expand beyond its home territory, a move that Apple is trying to do in its own right. The company has been trying to move beyond its China dependency for years now, with some efforts in the United States.

In that process Apple has turned to India. It has been a slow process so far, and will remain that way for quite some time, but expectations are high that Apple may see India exporting one in every five iPhones by 2025.

Apple's manufacturing partnership with TSMC has been longstanding one, so much so that it was recently reported Apple has a "sweetheart deal" that saves the company millions of dollars because it only charges Apple for "known good dies." However, a subsequent report based on details provided by Ming-Chi Kuo says that's not true at all.

Read on AppleInsider

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 21
    waveparticlewaveparticle Posts: 1,497member
    LOL Germany with the world popular advance auto industry and nearby Netherland ASML company cannot fab the advanced semiconductor chips? LOL This thing is very political. 
    FileMakerFeller
  • Reply 2 of 21
    mayflymayfly Posts: 385member
    LOL Germany with the world popular advance auto industry and nearby Netherland ASML company cannot fab the advanced semiconductor chips? LOL This thing is very political. 
    Achtung Baby! It's not politics. It's about the money. It's always about the money.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 21
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,564member
    LOL Germany with the world popular advance auto industry and nearby Netherland ASML company cannot fab the advanced semiconductor chips? LOL This thing is very political. 
    We're going to desperately need manufacturing jobs when the auto industry downsizes as Chinese companies take over the market that German manufacturers were subsidised into ignoring under Merkel… 

    Long story short: The German auto industry got major incentives from the CDU-led government to keep reselling the obviously obsolete combustion tech that cost them ZERO in R&D, at effectively pure profit. 

    This money was diverted from maintaining public transport infrastructure, which is today screwing us in a Big Way™, and adding insult to injury, it was used to generate MASSIVE profits for shareholders and manager bonuses, rather than being effectively invested into EV development. This has Chinese and other manufacturers a decade-long lead on technology. 

    So in the past few months, we've seen Mercedes announce that they're moving exclusively upmarket and dropping out of the affordable segment entirely, while Audi and Volkswagen have announced, er, "cooperations" with Chinese manufacturers to build EVs for the Chinese market, where German car sales have dropped off a cliff. 

    I figure that ten years from now, Audi and VW will sell rebadged, upmarked cars built in China, while the exact same car with a different interior and minor external differences will be available from the actual manufacturer at a much lower price. 

    So we need manufacturing jobs, and chip manufacturing — Infineon, Intel et al. have already announced or started building plants, as well. 

    The U.S. has made a similar push with the Chips and Science Act, albeit for slightly different reasons AFAICS. 
    FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 21
    hydrogenhydrogen Posts: 314member
    Accepting to pay 5B$ for 2000-3000 jobs is insane.
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 21
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,703member
    hydrogen said:
    Accepting to pay 5B$ for 2000-3000 jobs is insane.
    It's more than those jobs. It's a seeds for the future programme and a strategic dependency. 
    sphericblastdoordewmeilarynx
  • Reply 6 of 21
    I think is largely a strategic one in order to reduce dependency on production from China and Taiwan. We already strongly felt the significant impact of the disruptions and difficulties  in the supply chain caused by the pandemic. Also, there is a certain level of fear what might happen in case China should decide to march into Taiwan. In addition, it is simply considered a major areas of innovation and growth. You can also say that globalization has reached its peak and there is overall a tendency to not depend on suppliers in countries with - let’s say - a lower level of trust.

    Some fun facts:
    - China accounts for roughly 70% of min production of rare earths, basically needed in almost any product in electronics, aerospace, automotive, etc.
    - Meds are largely coming from China and India
    - numerous products such as certain clothing, toys etc. aren’t made at all anymore in the US, or Europe
    sphericilarynxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 21
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,308member
    The US government funded the creation of the semiconductor industry. The Taiwanese government funded the creation of that industry in Taiwan. So this is hardly unique. 

    Governments have always played an important role in the economy. Over time, democratic governments partnering with private enterprise tend to do this most successfully. 
    ilarynxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 21
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,875member
    spheric said:
    LOL Germany with the world popular advance auto industry and nearby Netherland ASML company cannot fab the advanced semiconductor chips? LOL This thing is very political. 
    We're going to desperately need manufacturing jobs when the auto industry downsizes as Chinese companies take over the market that German manufacturers were subsidised into ignoring under Merkel… 

    Long story short: The German auto industry got major incentives from the CDU-led government to keep reselling the obviously obsolete combustion tech that cost them ZERO in R&D, at effectively pure profit. 

    This money was diverted from maintaining public transport infrastructure, which is today screwing us in a Big Way™, and adding insult to injury, it was used to generate MASSIVE profits for shareholders and manager bonuses, rather than being effectively invested into EV development. This has Chinese and other manufacturers a decade-long lead on technology. 

    So in the past few months, we've seen Mercedes announce that they're moving exclusively upmarket and dropping out of the affordable segment entirely, while Audi and Volkswagen have announced, er, "cooperations" with Chinese manufacturers to build EVs for the Chinese market, where German car sales have dropped off a cliff. 

    I figure that ten years from now, Audi and VW will sell rebadged, upmarked cars built in China, while the exact same car with a different interior and minor external differences will be available from the actual manufacturer at a much lower price. 

    So we need manufacturing jobs, and chip manufacturing — Infineon, Intel et al. have already announced or started building plants, as well. 

    The U.S. has made a similar push with the Chips and Science Act, albeit for slightly different reasons AFAICS. 

    So, in short, you think the German government and the German people should’ve let the German automobile industry and manufacturing in general go down the drain like the British in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s? How is Brexit/Thatcherism and turning your back on industry and the actual making of things (products) working for the British? 

    Countries like Germany, Japan, or South Korea, made the right call in the last 60 years, they collectively decided to keep making products Britain did not (land lording and money laundering can only take a society so far.

    And if you want to see infrastructure deflation, just come to America, Western Europe aside from Great Britain has done a much better job in maintaining and building their infrastructure, the rail system in America is stuck in the 19th century (train derailments at 40 mph), in comparison to western Europe and east Asia.
    edited August 2023 williamlondontmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 21
    I think is largely a strategic one in order to reduce dependency on production from China and Taiwan. We already strongly felt the significant impact of the disruptions and difficulties  in the supply chain caused by the pandemic. Also, there is a certain level of fear what might happen in case China should decide to march into Taiwan. In addition, it is simply considered a major areas of innovation and growth. You can also say that globalization has reached its peak and there is overall a tendency to not depend on suppliers in countries with - let’s say - a lower level of trust.

    Some fun facts:
    - China accounts for roughly 70% of min production of rare earths, basically needed in almost any product in electronics, aerospace, automotive, etc.
    - Meds are largely coming from China and India
    - numerous products such as certain clothing, toys etc. aren’t made at all anymore in the US, or Europe
    But but.. You don't notice TSMC is a Taiwanese company? Whatever happened to Germany technology? Russia GDP exceeded Germany in 2022 to become the largest in Europe. 
  • Reply 10 of 21
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,875member
    I think is largely a strategic one in order to reduce dependency on production from China and Taiwan. We already strongly felt the significant impact of the disruptions and difficulties  in the supply chain caused by the pandemic. Also, there is a certain level of fear what might happen in case China should decide to march into Taiwan. In addition, it is simply considered a major areas of innovation and growth. You can also say that globalization has reached its peak and there is overall a tendency to not depend on suppliers in countries with - let’s say - a lower level of trust.

    Some fun facts:
    - China accounts for roughly 70% of min production of rare earths, basically needed in almost any product in electronics, aerospace, automotive, etc.
    - Meds are largely coming from China and India
    - numerous products such as certain clothing, toys etc. aren’t made at all anymore in the US, or Europe

    The decision, the motivations to off load the making of things into cheaper slave wage countries. Those decisions were made by CEOs in the west, blaming in country production workers at home or the countries of India, China, or any other lower wage, lower regulation country (cartel Mexico?) you care to name, for those executive decisions is just business as usual. 

    The American first response (playbook) is to search for cheap/controllable/desperate labor above anything else then blame that labor (if they are Union or organizing even better) for all the troubles of society then move out of country. In recent times, the UK is ahead of us, and is even better at it with Thatcherism/Brexit/and tax avoidance.

    Has the American CEO changed their attitude (playbook) will America build infrastructure, will America maintain it, and will it do so, in a bipartisan manner? Mmm…. in today’s American climate?
    sphericwatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 21
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,703member
    danox said:
    I think is largely a strategic one in order to reduce dependency on production from China and Taiwan. We already strongly felt the significant impact of the disruptions and difficulties  in the supply chain caused by the pandemic. Also, there is a certain level of fear what might happen in case China should decide to march into Taiwan. In addition, it is simply considered a major areas of innovation and growth. You can also say that globalization has reached its peak and there is overall a tendency to not depend on suppliers in countries with - let’s say - a lower level of trust.

    Some fun facts:
    - China accounts for roughly 70% of min production of rare earths, basically needed in almost any product in electronics, aerospace, automotive, etc.
    - Meds are largely coming from China and India
    - numerous products such as certain clothing, toys etc. aren’t made at all anymore in the US, or Europe

    The decision, the motivations to off load the making of things into cheaper slave wage countries. Those decisions were made by CEOs in the west, blaming in country production workers at home or the countries of India, China, or any other lower wage, lower regulation country (cartel Mexico?) you care to name, for those executive decisions is just business as usual. 

    The American first response (playbook) is to search for cheap/controllable/desperate labor above anything else then blame that labor (if they are Union or organizing even better) for all the troubles of society then move out of country. In recent times, the UK is ahead of us, and is even better at it with Thatcherism/Brexit/and tax avoidance.

    Has the American CEO changed their attitude (playbook) will America build infrastructure, will America maintain it, and will it do so, in a bipartisan manner? Mmm…. in today’s American climate?
    There is no simple answer to these problems (at least not in practical terms). 

    The 80s onwards saw the UK transform from a manufacturing industry to a services industry. 

    More and more of its manufacturing capacity was for other countries who had massive reservations about setting up factories in the UK because of the 'power of the unions'. 

    With Brexit we now how easy it is for multi nationals to up and go elsewhere. 

    Nowadays, the term 'manufacturing' is insufficient for comparisons as it is really about 'advanced' manufacturing now (the marriage of technology, communications, 'intelligence' and the manufacturing itself. 

    With regards to that, the EU actually sits quite favorably in terms of strategic dependencies. 

    I did a quick search for Germany and this is the first result that came back from Google 

    https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/germany-advanced-manufacturing

    But it's all a question of balance and markets. 

    German brands Siemens, Bosch, Balay have a huge factory in Zaragoza, Spain for washing machines and other appliances because Spain is cheaper to operate from for some companies. 

    But if you want to turn things up a notch it's impossible not to look to China and not only because of labor costs. It has everything you need and a gigantic market. 

    Here is an example of washing machines:




    Of course, in the specific field of advanced semiconductors, more can be done and that is why the EU has been bolstering its efforts. Not to displace any particular nation but to reduce dependencies on outside nations. 

    That was the stated goal of the EU processor initiative which has been laying the acedemic and manufacturing groundwork for a few years now. Basically coordinated from the Barcelona Supercomputing Centre. 

    Bosch had already announced a huge plan to build a semiconductor plant and more will come. 

    Also, let's not forget that everything that comes out of TSMC is largely dependant on hardware from an EU company: ASML. 

    edited August 2023 spheric
  • Reply 12 of 21
    “Russia GDP exceeded Germany in 2022 to become the largest in Europe.” Rather pointless statistic. What is the GDP per capita?
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 21
    “Russia GDP exceeded Germany in 2022 to become the largest in Europe.” Rather pointless statistic. What is the GDP per capita?
    But but but... US is afraid China GDP is catching up. Is it pointless statistic? LOL
    williamlondon
  • Reply 14 of 21
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,564member
    danox said:
    spheric said:
    LOL Germany with the world popular advance auto industry and nearby Netherland ASML company cannot fab the advanced semiconductor chips? LOL This thing is very political. 
    We're going to desperately need manufacturing jobs when the auto industry downsizes as Chinese companies take over the market that German manufacturers were subsidised into ignoring under Merkel… 

    Long story short: The German auto industry got major incentives from the CDU-led government to keep reselling the obviously obsolete combustion tech that cost them ZERO in R&D, at effectively pure profit. 

    This money was diverted from maintaining public transport infrastructure, which is today screwing us in a Big Way™, and adding insult to injury, it was used to generate MASSIVE profits for shareholders and manager bonuses, rather than being effectively invested into EV development. This has Chinese and other manufacturers a decade-long lead on technology. 

    So in the past few months, we've seen Mercedes announce that they're moving exclusively upmarket and dropping out of the affordable segment entirely, while Audi and Volkswagen have announced, er, "cooperations" with Chinese manufacturers to build EVs for the Chinese market, where German car sales have dropped off a cliff. 

    I figure that ten years from now, Audi and VW will sell rebadged, upmarked cars built in China, while the exact same car with a different interior and minor external differences will be available from the actual manufacturer at a much lower price. 

    So we need manufacturing jobs, and chip manufacturing — Infineon, Intel et al. have already announced or started building plants, as well. 

    The U.S. has made a similar push with the Chips and Science Act, albeit for slightly different reasons AFAICS. 

    So, in short, you think the German government and the German people should’ve let the German automobile industry and manufacturing in general go down the drain like the British in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s? 
    No, I am saying that this is what they HAVE done. 

    The "Conservative" government destroyed the world-leading German solar industry 15 years ago, handing technology leadership to the Chinese and destroying about 100,000 jobs, long-term. In the interest of short-term fossil lobby profits. 

    The Conservative government encouraged short-term MEGAprofits in the auto industry by subsidising the fossil-fuel status quo over the past fifteen or so years, at the expense of letting the industry go down the drain as other countries take the lead in technology and manufacturing. We're seeing that happen now. 
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 21
    spheric said:
    danox said:
    spheric said:
    LOL Germany with the world popular advance auto industry and nearby Netherland ASML company cannot fab the advanced semiconductor chips? LOL This thing is very political. 
    We're going to desperately need manufacturing jobs when the auto industry downsizes as Chinese companies take over the market that German manufacturers were subsidised into ignoring under Merkel… 

    Long story short: The German auto industry got major incentives from the CDU-led government to keep reselling the obviously obsolete combustion tech that cost them ZERO in R&D, at effectively pure profit. 

    This money was diverted from maintaining public transport infrastructure, which is today screwing us in a Big Way™, and adding insult to injury, it was used to generate MASSIVE profits for shareholders and manager bonuses, rather than being effectively invested into EV development. This has Chinese and other manufacturers a decade-long lead on technology. 

    So in the past few months, we've seen Mercedes announce that they're moving exclusively upmarket and dropping out of the affordable segment entirely, while Audi and Volkswagen have announced, er, "cooperations" with Chinese manufacturers to build EVs for the Chinese market, where German car sales have dropped off a cliff. 

    I figure that ten years from now, Audi and VW will sell rebadged, upmarked cars built in China, while the exact same car with a different interior and minor external differences will be available from the actual manufacturer at a much lower price. 

    So we need manufacturing jobs, and chip manufacturing — Infineon, Intel et al. have already announced or started building plants, as well. 

    The U.S. has made a similar push with the Chips and Science Act, albeit for slightly different reasons AFAICS. 

    So, in short, you think the German government and the German people should’ve let the German automobile industry and manufacturing in general go down the drain like the British in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s? 
    No, I am saying that this is what they HAVE done. 

    The "Conservative" government destroyed the world-leading German solar industry 15 years ago, handing technology leadership to the Chinese and destroying about 100,000 jobs, long-term. In the interest of short-term fossil lobby profits. 

    The Conservative government encouraged short-term MEGAprofits in the auto industry by subsidising the fossil-fuel status quo over the past fifteen or so years, at the expense of letting the industry go down the drain as other countries take the lead in technology and manufacturing. We're seeing that happen now. 
    LOL What is the total revenue of the world-leading German solar industry 15 years ago?
    williamlondon
  • Reply 16 of 21
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,564member
    spheric said:
    danox said:
    spheric said:
    LOL Germany with the world popular advance auto industry and nearby Netherland ASML company cannot fab the advanced semiconductor chips? LOL This thing is very political. 
    We're going to desperately need manufacturing jobs when the auto industry downsizes as Chinese companies take over the market that German manufacturers were subsidised into ignoring under Merkel… 

    Long story short: The German auto industry got major incentives from the CDU-led government to keep reselling the obviously obsolete combustion tech that cost them ZERO in R&D, at effectively pure profit. 

    This money was diverted from maintaining public transport infrastructure, which is today screwing us in a Big Way™, and adding insult to injury, it was used to generate MASSIVE profits for shareholders and manager bonuses, rather than being effectively invested into EV development. This has Chinese and other manufacturers a decade-long lead on technology. 

    So in the past few months, we've seen Mercedes announce that they're moving exclusively upmarket and dropping out of the affordable segment entirely, while Audi and Volkswagen have announced, er, "cooperations" with Chinese manufacturers to build EVs for the Chinese market, where German car sales have dropped off a cliff. 

    I figure that ten years from now, Audi and VW will sell rebadged, upmarked cars built in China, while the exact same car with a different interior and minor external differences will be available from the actual manufacturer at a much lower price. 

    So we need manufacturing jobs, and chip manufacturing — Infineon, Intel et al. have already announced or started building plants, as well. 

    The U.S. has made a similar push with the Chips and Science Act, albeit for slightly different reasons AFAICS. 

    So, in short, you think the German government and the German people should’ve let the German automobile industry and manufacturing in general go down the drain like the British in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s? 
    No, I am saying that this is what they HAVE done. 

    The "Conservative" government destroyed the world-leading German solar industry 15 years ago, handing technology leadership to the Chinese and destroying about 100,000 jobs, long-term. In the interest of short-term fossil lobby profits. 

    The Conservative government encouraged short-term MEGAprofits in the auto industry by subsidising the fossil-fuel status quo over the past fifteen or so years, at the expense of letting the industry go down the drain as other countries take the lead in technology and manufacturing. We're seeing that happen now. 
    LOL What is the total revenue of the world-leading German solar industry 15 years ago?
    I have no idea why you think „leading“ means „biggest“, but German solar tech had 160,000 employees with over 14 billion € revenue in 2011, vs. 50,000 employees and 3.7 billion € in 2014. 
    It was a fairly significant sector, and it was deliberately destroyed by the CDU-led government. 
    williamlondon
  • Reply 17 of 21
    spheric said:
    spheric said:
    danox said:
    spheric said:
    LOL Germany with the world popular advance auto industry and nearby Netherland ASML company cannot fab the advanced semiconductor chips? LOL This thing is very political. 
    We're going to desperately need manufacturing jobs when the auto industry downsizes as Chinese companies take over the market that German manufacturers were subsidised into ignoring under Merkel… 

    Long story short: The German auto industry got major incentives from the CDU-led government to keep reselling the obviously obsolete combustion tech that cost them ZERO in R&D, at effectively pure profit. 

    This money was diverted from maintaining public transport infrastructure, which is today screwing us in a Big Way™, and adding insult to injury, it was used to generate MASSIVE profits for shareholders and manager bonuses, rather than being effectively invested into EV development. This has Chinese and other manufacturers a decade-long lead on technology. 

    So in the past few months, we've seen Mercedes announce that they're moving exclusively upmarket and dropping out of the affordable segment entirely, while Audi and Volkswagen have announced, er, "cooperations" with Chinese manufacturers to build EVs for the Chinese market, where German car sales have dropped off a cliff. 

    I figure that ten years from now, Audi and VW will sell rebadged, upmarked cars built in China, while the exact same car with a different interior and minor external differences will be available from the actual manufacturer at a much lower price. 

    So we need manufacturing jobs, and chip manufacturing — Infineon, Intel et al. have already announced or started building plants, as well. 

    The U.S. has made a similar push with the Chips and Science Act, albeit for slightly different reasons AFAICS. 

    So, in short, you think the German government and the German people should’ve let the German automobile industry and manufacturing in general go down the drain like the British in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s? 
    No, I am saying that this is what they HAVE done. 

    The "Conservative" government destroyed the world-leading German solar industry 15 years ago, handing technology leadership to the Chinese and destroying about 100,000 jobs, long-term. In the interest of short-term fossil lobby profits. 

    The Conservative government encouraged short-term MEGAprofits in the auto industry by subsidising the fossil-fuel status quo over the past fifteen or so years, at the expense of letting the industry go down the drain as other countries take the lead in technology and manufacturing. We're seeing that happen now. 
    LOL What is the total revenue of the world-leading German solar industry 15 years ago?
    I have no idea why you think „leading“ means „biggest“, but German solar tech had 160,000 employees with over 14 billion € revenue in 2011, vs. 50,000 employees and 3.7 billion € in 2014. 
    It was a fairly significant sector, and it was deliberately destroyed by the CDU-led government. 
    LOL Bard tolda me this,

    According to the German Solar Industry Association, the revenue of the German solar industry in 2014 was €13.1 billion. This represented a decline of 8% from 2013, but was still higher than the revenue in 2010.

    The decline in revenue in 2014 was due to a number of factors, including:

    • The global financial crisis, which led to a decline in demand for solar panels.
    • Cuts to government subsidies for solar power.
    • Competition from Chinese solar manufacturers.

    Despite the decline in revenue, the German solar industry continued to grow in terms of installed capacity. In 2014, Germany added 5.6 gigawatts of solar power capacity, bringing the total installed capacity to 35.7 gigawatts.

    The German solar industry is expected to continue to grow in the coming years, driven by government policies to promote renewable energy and the increasing cost of fossil fuels. The German government has set a target of generating 80% of its electricity from renewable sources by 2030. This will require a significant expansion of the solar industry in Germany.

    If this target is met, the German solar industry could reach a revenue of €20 billion by 2030.

    Is Google Bard a trustable source? 

    williamlondon
  • Reply 18 of 21
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,348member
    “Russia GDP exceeded Germany in 2022 to become the largest in Europe.” Rather pointless statistic. What is the GDP per capita?
    Yeah, not so much. That's GDP growth, not GDP, and Russian's GDP growth is likely shriveling up more so than Germany's.

    Qu. GDP Per Capita2023Q212,181K2,584K2021Q3Qu. GDP Per Capita
    Annual GDP2022€3,876,810M€2,116,735M2022Annual GDP
    Annual GDP2022$4,075,395M$2,240,422M2022Annual GDP
    GDP per capita2022€46,260€14,5422022GDP per capita
    edited August 2023 williamlondon
  • Reply 19 of 21
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,348member
    “Russia GDP exceeded Germany in 2022 to become the largest in Europe.” Rather pointless statistic. What is the GDP per capita?
    But but but... US is afraid China GDP is catching up. Is it pointless statistic? LOL
    China is hitting some rough spots in its economy, and China does exceed the U.S. GDP if you consider Purchasing Power Parity, ie, comparable items are cheaper in China.

    If you don't consider that, then China is still trailing the U.S.

    The U.S. is about 1/4 the population of China.

    For that, China's economy is seeing a lot of chaos, substantial unemployment for it youth, and an aging, decreasing population which doesn't bode well for the future. 
  • Reply 20 of 21
    mayflymayfly Posts: 385member
    “Russia GDP exceeded Germany in 2022 to become the largest in Europe.” Rather pointless statistic. What is the GDP per capita?
    Considering that 77% of Russia's area is in Asia, the western 23% of the country is located in Europe, I'd take that statistic with a BIG bowl of borscht. And I hate beets!! And I'm not very fond of Russia right now, either.
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