Apple will frame iPhone 15 USB-C switch as a consumer win

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 63
    XedXed Posts: 2,489member
    It is a win. And it is a loss. It has pros and cons just like every other time Apple has changed a long-used cable standard for something new. This would only be news if Apple doesn't focus on the positives.
    StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 63
    eightzeroeightzero Posts: 3,048member
    tht said:
    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    This is a very efficient solution, best demonstrated by the success of the deposit required on beverage containers in several us states. Roadside trash is greatly reduced as the containers are scavenged when lazy people toss them. eWaste could similarly be reduced with a deposit required on all such devices. Return it for proper disposal, and the deposit is refunded. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 63
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,546member
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. 

    The EU had no desire to legislate. 

    Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't.

    There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 

    Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. 

    Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 

    Is it the best in every way imaginable? 

    No. There is no perfect solution. 

    That is spelt out over and over in the impact studies where they laid out a matrix with all the pros and cons to different combinations. 

    There is no point arguing that market forces will sort everything out either. We are in the current situation precisely because of market forces. 

    Will the directive stifle innovation? Again. No. 

    Anyone who has read through the texts will know that innovation is explicitly mentioned numerous times. 

    People are talking about the physical connector and its fragility. We need to be realistic. In all these years of USB-C implementation, how many cases of port failure have we experienced through normal use? It is literally a non-issue. 

    I've had just one case and it was my fault. A pile of books fell onto my phone while it was charging. 

    It cost me 29€ to have fixed and they changed my battery for free. The repair was simple because of the design. 

    Apple, and everybody else with a marketing department will spin everything it can in its favour. I can understand that but some things are there and there is no getting around them. 

    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 

    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 44 of 63
    macxpress said:
    S8ER95Z said:
    darkvader said:
    It IS a consumer win.

    And it's a win we wouldn't have gotten if the EU hadn't forced Apple to do it.
    Would have been better if they skipped usbc and did MagSafe like they did on the MacBook Pro honestly.  Being forced into anything is never a win and now we are saddled with this port until the EU dictates otherwise.  All hail the EU though.. 🙄
    Yeah, because MagSafe is such a great connector for data transfer and it's so easy to knock over a phone while it's charging on your nightstand.... 🤷
    USB-C is a much worse connector than Lightning. Lighting is a very durable connection and USB-C wears out after a while of daily plugging and unplugging. Happens all the time on USB-C laptops where you need to plug in a USB-C dock or power supply. I see it constantly at work. 
    Prove this. I have Lightening cables that are crap and did not last six months. 
  • Reply 45 of 63
    darkvader said:
    It IS a consumer win.

    And it's a win we wouldn't have gotten if the EU hadn't forced Apple to do it.
    You wouldn’t even have USB-C if Apple hadn’t lead the way with Lightning, and served on the USB working group. 
    designrwilliamlondonwatto_cobramacxpress
  • Reply 46 of 63
    Skeptical said:
    macxpress said:
    S8ER95Z said:
    darkvader said:
    It IS a consumer win.

    And it's a win we wouldn't have gotten if the EU hadn't forced Apple to do it.
    Would have been better if they skipped usbc and did MagSafe like they did on the MacBook Pro honestly.  Being forced into anything is never a win and now we are saddled with this port until the EU dictates otherwise.  All hail the EU though.. 🙄
    Yeah, because MagSafe is such a great connector for data transfer and it's so easy to knock over a phone while it's charging on your nightstand.... 🤷
    USB-C is a much worse connector than Lightning. Lighting is a very durable connection and USB-C wears out after a while of daily plugging and unplugging. Happens all the time on USB-C laptops where you need to plug in a USB-C dock or power supply. I see it constantly at work. 
    Prove this. I have Lightening cables that are crap and did not last six months. 
    He’s talking about the connectors and ports themselves, not the cables. I’ve never had a Lightning port or connector fail. Have had third party cables fail. 
    designrwatto_cobramacxpress
  • Reply 47 of 63
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,255member
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. 

    The EU had no desire to legislate. 

    Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't.

    There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 

    Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. 

    Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 

    Is it the best in every way imaginable? 

    No. There is no perfect solution. 

    That is spelt out over and over in the impact studies where they laid out a matrix with all the pros and cons to different combinations. 

    There is no point arguing that market forces will sort everything out either. We are in the current situation precisely because of market forces. 

    Will the directive stifle innovation? Again. No. 

    Anyone who has read through the texts will know that innovation is explicitly mentioned numerous times. 

    People are talking about the physical connector and its fragility. We need to be realistic. In all these years of USB-C implementation, how many cases of port failure have we experienced through normal use? It is literally a non-issue. 

    I've had just one case and it was my fault. A pile of books fell onto my phone while it was charging. 

    It cost me 29€ to have fixed and they changed my battery for free. The repair was simple because of the design. 

    Apple, and everybody else with a marketing department will spin everything it can in its favour. I can understand that but some things are there and there is no getting around them. 

    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 
    Oh FFS, the EU was well aware of the market size of Apple, and having more than a single standard is common in industry. The EU considered Micro USB to be the default standard, and Lightning, at that time, had a huge advantage over Micro USB.

    That Apple didn't immediately move to Type C for the iPhone, but waited some 12 years, and will meet the deadline requirements set by the EU, is sufficient, given the WW user base exceeds 1.35 Billion. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    Nobody gives a fuck about your drawer full of low capacity chargers that were commonly delivered with feature phones, and then smartphones, by all manufacturers, including Apple. Apple no longer includes them, and you are quite aware of that.
  • Reply 48 of 63
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,546member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. 

    The EU had no desire to legislate. 

    Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't.

    There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 

    Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. 

    Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 

    Is it the best in every way imaginable? 

    No. There is no perfect solution. 

    That is spelt out over and over in the impact studies where they laid out a matrix with all the pros and cons to different combinations. 

    There is no point arguing that market forces will sort everything out either. We are in the current situation precisely because of market forces. 

    Will the directive stifle innovation? Again. No. 

    Anyone who has read through the texts will know that innovation is explicitly mentioned numerous times. 

    People are talking about the physical connector and its fragility. We need to be realistic. In all these years of USB-C implementation, how many cases of port failure have we experienced through normal use? It is literally a non-issue. 

    I've had just one case and it was my fault. A pile of books fell onto my phone while it was charging. 

    It cost me 29€ to have fixed and they changed my battery for free. The repair was simple because of the design. 

    Apple, and everybody else with a marketing department will spin everything it can in its favour. I can understand that but some things are there and there is no getting around them. 

    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 
    Oh FFS, the EU was well aware of the market size of Apple, and having more than a single standard is common in industry. The EU considered Micro USB to be the default standard, and Lightning, at that time, had a huge advantage over Micro USB.

    That Apple didn't immediately move to Type C for the iPhone, but waited some 12 years, and will meet the deadline requirements set by the EU, is sufficient, given the WW user base exceeds 1.35 Billion. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    Nobody gives a fuck about your drawer full of low capacity chargers that were commonly delivered with feature phones, and then smartphones, by all manufacturers, including Apple. Apple no longer includes them, and you are quite aware of that.
    When you begin your rants with 'FFS' I just laugh because I know what is coming is deranged nonsense.

    Here you go. 2009.

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/MEMO_09_301

    Lightning wasn't introduced until the end of 2012.

    The MoU was established because the problem predated even the iPhone (as a product!) but when the iPhone did arrive, it contributed to the issue. 

    What the EU wanted was harmonisation and it refrained from legislating it and Lightning could exist. 

    This time around though Apple has rightly been caught in the legislative net. Today, who wins? Consumers and the industry in general. 

    Time for you to bark up another tree! 


    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 49 of 63
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,255member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. 

    The EU had no desire to legislate. 

    Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't.

    There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 

    Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. 

    Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 

    Is it the best in every way imaginable? 

    No. There is no perfect solution. 

    That is spelt out over and over in the impact studies where they laid out a matrix with all the pros and cons to different combinations. 

    There is no point arguing that market forces will sort everything out either. We are in the current situation precisely because of market forces. 

    Will the directive stifle innovation? Again. No. 

    Anyone who has read through the texts will know that innovation is explicitly mentioned numerous times. 

    People are talking about the physical connector and its fragility. We need to be realistic. In all these years of USB-C implementation, how many cases of port failure have we experienced through normal use? It is literally a non-issue. 

    I've had just one case and it was my fault. A pile of books fell onto my phone while it was charging. 

    It cost me 29€ to have fixed and they changed my battery for free. The repair was simple because of the design. 

    Apple, and everybody else with a marketing department will spin everything it can in its favour. I can understand that but some things are there and there is no getting around them. 

    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 
    Oh FFS, the EU was well aware of the market size of Apple, and having more than a single standard is common in industry. The EU considered Micro USB to be the default standard, and Lightning, at that time, had a huge advantage over Micro USB.

    That Apple didn't immediately move to Type C for the iPhone, but waited some 12 years, and will meet the deadline requirements set by the EU, is sufficient, given the WW user base exceeds 1.35 Billion. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    Nobody gives a fuck about your drawer full of low capacity chargers that were commonly delivered with feature phones, and then smartphones, by all manufacturers, including Apple. Apple no longer includes them, and you are quite aware of that.
    When you begin your rants with 'FFS' I just laugh because I know what is coming is deranged nonsense.

    Here you go. 2009.

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/MEMO_09_301

    Lightning wasn't introduced until the end of 2012.

    The MoU was established because the problem predated even the iPhone (as a product!) but when the iPhone did arrive, it contributed to the issue. 

    What the EU wanted was harmonisation and it refrained from legislating it and Lightning could exist. 

    This time around though Apple has rightly been caught in the legislative net. Today, who wins? Consumers and the industry in general. 

    Time for you to bark up another tree! 


    Harmonising mobile phone chargers will bring significant economic and environmental benefits. Following a request from the European Commission and in close co-operation with the Commission services, major producers of mobile phones have agreed in a Memorandum of Understanding (“MoU”) to harmonise chargers for data-enabled mobile phones sold in the EU. Industry commits to provide chargers compatibility on the basis of the Micro-USB connector. Once the commitment becomes effective, it will be possible to charge data-enabled mobile phones from any charger compatible with the common specifications.
    Micro USB was and is an abomination, and here is how Apple complied;

    Apple has released a Dock-to-micro USB adapter as part of its compliance with new European Union standards for smartphone chargers. Apple signed an agreement in 2009 committing to honor the standard, which uses a charger that outputs 5V at 500mA and a cable that terminates in a micro USB plug.Oct 5, 2011
    So when Apple transitioned to Lightning, they were still in compliance by providing an adaptor.

    There was considerable speculation about whether Apple would be able to meet the requirements of the micro-USB standard. At the time, Apple used a proprietary 30-pin dock connector compatible with both the iPhoneiPad, and iPod touch. 

    However, the wording of the MoU offered Apple a loophole: For those phones that did not have a USB micro-B interface, an adapter was allowed under the agreed terms. And that's exactly what Apple did. In 2012, Apple introduced the ‌iPhone‌ 5 with a new Lightning proprietary connector to replace its 30-pin connector, and additionally offered a separate Lightning to micro USB adapter to comply with the 2009 EU agreement.

    And again, Apple will be in compliance, and in spite of the EU, Apple would have likely transitioned to Type C in the near term anyway, but they have until December 28 of 2024.

    December 28, 2024
    Now, in a newly published directive, the EU says all smartphones must have USB-C by December 28, 2024. Other consumer products, such as tablets and gadgets, will also be required to switch to USB-C under the new law.


    Oh, and for the record, that adaptor is a couple of grams, so hardly a major contributor to the e-waste issue.




    edited September 2023
  • Reply 50 of 63
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,546member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. 

    The EU had no desire to legislate. 

    Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't.

    There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 

    Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. 

    Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 

    Is it the best in every way imaginable? 

    No. There is no perfect solution. 

    That is spelt out over and over in the impact studies where they laid out a matrix with all the pros and cons to different combinations. 

    There is no point arguing that market forces will sort everything out either. We are in the current situation precisely because of market forces. 

    Will the directive stifle innovation? Again. No. 

    Anyone who has read through the texts will know that innovation is explicitly mentioned numerous times. 

    People are talking about the physical connector and its fragility. We need to be realistic. In all these years of USB-C implementation, how many cases of port failure have we experienced through normal use? It is literally a non-issue. 

    I've had just one case and it was my fault. A pile of books fell onto my phone while it was charging. 

    It cost me 29€ to have fixed and they changed my battery for free. The repair was simple because of the design. 

    Apple, and everybody else with a marketing department will spin everything it can in its favour. I can understand that but some things are there and there is no getting around them. 

    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 
    Oh FFS, the EU was well aware of the market size of Apple, and having more than a single standard is common in industry. The EU considered Micro USB to be the default standard, and Lightning, at that time, had a huge advantage over Micro USB.

    That Apple didn't immediately move to Type C for the iPhone, but waited some 12 years, and will meet the deadline requirements set by the EU, is sufficient, given the WW user base exceeds 1.35 Billion. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    Nobody gives a fuck about your drawer full of low capacity chargers that were commonly delivered with feature phones, and then smartphones, by all manufacturers, including Apple. Apple no longer includes them, and you are quite aware of that.
    When you begin your rants with 'FFS' I just laugh because I know what is coming is deranged nonsense.

    Here you go. 2009.

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/MEMO_09_301

    Lightning wasn't introduced until the end of 2012.

    The MoU was established because the problem predated even the iPhone (as a product!) but when the iPhone did arrive, it contributed to the issue. 

    What the EU wanted was harmonisation and it refrained from legislating it and Lightning could exist. 

    This time around though Apple has rightly been caught in the legislative net. Today, who wins? Consumers and the industry in general. 

    Time for you to bark up another tree! 


    Harmonising mobile phone chargers will bring significant economic and environmental benefits. Following a request from the European Commission and in close co-operation with the Commission services, major producers of mobile phones have agreed in a Memorandum of Understanding (“MoU”) to harmonise chargers for data-enabled mobile phones sold in the EU. Industry commits to provide chargers compatibility on the basis of the Micro-USB connector. Once the commitment becomes effective, it will be possible to charge data-enabled mobile phones from any charger compatible with the common specifications.
    Micro USB was and is an abomination, and here is how Apple complied;

    Apple has released a Dock-to-micro USB adapter as part of its compliance with new European Union standards for smartphone chargers. Apple signed an agreement in 2009 committing to honor the standard, which uses a charger that outputs 5V at 500mA and a cable that terminates in a micro USB plug.Oct 5, 2011
    So when Apple transitioned to Lightning, they were still in compliance by providing an adaptor.

    There was considerable speculation about whether Apple would be able to meet the requirements of the micro-USB standard. At the time, Apple used a proprietary 30-pin dock connector compatible with both the iPhoneiPad, and iPod touch. 

    However, the wording of the MoU offered Apple a loophole: For those phones that did not have a USB micro-B interface, an adapter was allowed under the agreed terms. And that's exactly what Apple did. In 2012, Apple introduced the ‌iPhone‌ 5 with a new Lightning proprietary connector to replace its 30-pin connector, and additionally offered a separate Lightning to micro USB adapter to comply with the 2009 EU agreement.

    And again, Apple will be in compliance, and in spite of the EU, Apple would have likely transitioned to Type C in the near term anyway, but they have until December 24 of 2024.

    December 28, 2024
    Now, in a newly published directive, the EU says all smartphones must have USB-C by December 28, 2024. Other consumer products, such as tablets and gadgets, will also be required to switch to USB-C under the new law.


    Oh, and for the record, that adaptor is a couple of grams, so hardly a major contributor to the e-waste issue.




    Not so fast! 

    Rewind! 

    You have just completely ignored what I wrote in reply to your nonsense. Par for the course! 

    You are just scurrying off to another irrelevant point, as you regularly do.

    Oh well! 
  • Reply 51 of 63
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,255member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. 

    The EU had no desire to legislate. 

    Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't.

    There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 

    Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. 

    Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 

    Is it the best in every way imaginable? 

    No. There is no perfect solution. 

    That is spelt out over and over in the impact studies where they laid out a matrix with all the pros and cons to different combinations. 

    There is no point arguing that market forces will sort everything out either. We are in the current situation precisely because of market forces. 

    Will the directive stifle innovation? Again. No. 

    Anyone who has read through the texts will know that innovation is explicitly mentioned numerous times. 

    People are talking about the physical connector and its fragility. We need to be realistic. In all these years of USB-C implementation, how many cases of port failure have we experienced through normal use? It is literally a non-issue. 

    I've had just one case and it was my fault. A pile of books fell onto my phone while it was charging. 

    It cost me 29€ to have fixed and they changed my battery for free. The repair was simple because of the design. 

    Apple, and everybody else with a marketing department will spin everything it can in its favour. I can understand that but some things are there and there is no getting around them. 

    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? 
    Oh FFS, the EU was well aware of the market size of Apple, and having more than a single standard is common in industry. The EU considered Micro USB to be the default standard, and Lightning, at that time, had a huge advantage over Micro USB.

    That Apple didn't immediately move to Type C for the iPhone, but waited some 12 years, and will meet the deadline requirements set by the EU, is sufficient, given the WW user base exceeds 1.35 Billion. 

    Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    Nobody gives a fuck about your drawer full of low capacity chargers that were commonly delivered with feature phones, and then smartphones, by all manufacturers, including Apple. Apple no longer includes them, and you are quite aware of that.
    When you begin your rants with 'FFS' I just laugh because I know what is coming is deranged nonsense.

    Here you go. 2009.

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/MEMO_09_301

    Lightning wasn't introduced until the end of 2012.

    The MoU was established because the problem predated even the iPhone (as a product!) but when the iPhone did arrive, it contributed to the issue. 

    What the EU wanted was harmonisation and it refrained from legislating it and Lightning could exist. 

    This time around though Apple has rightly been caught in the legislative net. Today, who wins? Consumers and the industry in general. 

    Time for you to bark up another tree! 


    Harmonising mobile phone chargers will bring significant economic and environmental benefits. Following a request from the European Commission and in close co-operation with the Commission services, major producers of mobile phones have agreed in a Memorandum of Understanding (“MoU”) to harmonise chargers for data-enabled mobile phones sold in the EU. Industry commits to provide chargers compatibility on the basis of the Micro-USB connector. Once the commitment becomes effective, it will be possible to charge data-enabled mobile phones from any charger compatible with the common specifications.
    Micro USB was and is an abomination, and here is how Apple complied;

    Apple has released a Dock-to-micro USB adapter as part of its compliance with new European Union standards for smartphone chargers. Apple signed an agreement in 2009 committing to honor the standard, which uses a charger that outputs 5V at 500mA and a cable that terminates in a micro USB plug.Oct 5, 2011
    So when Apple transitioned to Lightning, they were still in compliance by providing an adaptor.

    There was considerable speculation about whether Apple would be able to meet the requirements of the micro-USB standard. At the time, Apple used a proprietary 30-pin dock connector compatible with both the iPhoneiPad, and iPod touch. 

    However, the wording of the MoU offered Apple a loophole: For those phones that did not have a USB micro-B interface, an adapter was allowed under the agreed terms. And that's exactly what Apple did. In 2012, Apple introduced the ‌iPhone‌ 5 with a new Lightning proprietary connector to replace its 30-pin connector, and additionally offered a separate Lightning to micro USB adapter to comply with the 2009 EU agreement.

    And again, Apple will be in compliance, and in spite of the EU, Apple would have likely transitioned to Type C in the near term anyway, but they have until December 24 of 2024.

    December 28, 2024
    Now, in a newly published directive, the EU says all smartphones must have USB-C by December 28, 2024. Other consumer products, such as tablets and gadgets, will also be required to switch to USB-C under the new law.


    Oh, and for the record, that adaptor is a couple of grams, so hardly a major contributor to the e-waste issue.




    Not so fast! 

    Rewind! 

    You have just completely ignored what I wrote in reply to your nonsense. Par for the course! 

    You are just scurrying off to another irrelevant point, as you regularly do.

    Oh well! 
    LOL!

    Reader's digest version; Apple did what if wanted to do, and the EU is okay with that.
  • Reply 52 of 63
    thttht Posts: 5,365member
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. The EU had no desire to legislate. Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't. There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 
    ...
    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    It's not the ports, the protocols, power adaptor design that causes e-waste. It's that every new device comes with a cable and power adaptor in the box. For many OEMs, the accessories is a feature advantage and will continue to do superset features. The lack of a cables and power adaptors may become a negative feature, which encourages OEMs to put them in the box.

    10 years ago, not having them in the box would have been rather off-putting. So, I doubt Apple or any OEM would have shipped without them back then. Therefore, I doubt there would be any less cables in the user base if every one standardized on USBC in say 2015.

    Like I've said so many times before, if the EU wants to reduce e-waste, they should require companies recycle the products they sell and audit them. Or perhaps, use a recycling tax, but this is a less dependable option. The single best sign that e-waste is being reduced, at least as far device accessories go, is that they don't come in the box. I'm actually wondering if Apple will include USBC cables in the box for this year's cycle. Probably not. I think they will stop putting the cables in the box in the 2024 to 2025 year models.

    You can probably put all those Apple power adaptors in your drawer in a bag and give them to Apple. They should be able to recycle them.
    tmay
  • Reply 53 of 63
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,546member
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. The EU had no desire to legislate. Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't. There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 
    ...
    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    It's not the ports, the protocols, power adaptor design that causes e-waste. It's that every new device comes with a cable and power adaptor in the box. For many OEMs, the accessories is a feature advantage and will continue to do superset features. The lack of a cables and power adaptors may become a negative feature, which encourages OEMs to put them in the box.

    10 years ago, not having them in the box would have been rather off-putting. So, I doubt Apple or any OEM would have shipped without them back then. Therefore, I doubt there would be any less cables in the user base if every one standardized on USBC in say 2015.

    Like I've said so many times before, if the EU wants to reduce e-waste, they should require companies recycle the products they sell and audit them. Or perhaps, use a recycling tax, but this is a less dependable option. The single best sign that e-waste is being reduced, at least as far device accessories go, is that they don't come in the box. I'm actually wondering if Apple will include USBC cables in the box for this year's cycle. Probably not. I think they will stop putting the cables in the box in the 2024 to 2025 year models.

    You can probably put all those Apple power adaptors in your drawer in a bag and give them to Apple. They should be able to recycle them.
    WEEE covers recycling. It's been in force for many years. Every single piece of WEEE equipment sold within the EU includes the cost of disposal. It's illegal in many member states to dump WEEE equipment. 

    Shipping devices without a power adapter is actually encouraged in the common charger directive. 

    E-waste is increased via fragmentation which the directive aims to reduce drastically. 


    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 54 of 63
    thttht Posts: 5,365member
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. The EU had no desire to legislate. Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't. There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 
    ...
    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    It's not the ports, the protocols, power adaptor design that causes e-waste. It's that every new device comes with a cable and power adaptor in the box. For many OEMs, the accessories is a feature advantage and will continue to do superset features. The lack of a cables and power adaptors may become a negative feature, which encourages OEMs to put them in the box.

    10 years ago, not having them in the box would have been rather off-putting. So, I doubt Apple or any OEM would have shipped without them back then. Therefore, I doubt there would be any less cables in the user base if every one standardized on USBC in say 2015.

    Like I've said so many times before, if the EU wants to reduce e-waste, they should require companies recycle the products they sell and audit them. Or perhaps, use a recycling tax, but this is a less dependable option. The single best sign that e-waste is being reduced, at least as far device accessories go, is that they don't come in the box. I'm actually wondering if Apple will include USBC cables in the box for this year's cycle. Probably not. I think they will stop putting the cables in the box in the 2024 to 2025 year models.

    You can probably put all those Apple power adaptors in your drawer in a bag and give them to Apple. They should be able to recycle them.
    WEEE covers recycling. It's been in force for many years. Every single piece of WEEE equipment sold within the EU includes the cost of disposal. It's illegal in many member states to dump WEEE equipment. 

    Shipping devices without a power adapter is actually encouraged in the common charger directive. 

    E-waste is increased via fragmentation which the directive aims to reduce drastically. 
    You are saying WEEE covers recycling or disposal? The former implies the EU doesn't need to do anything else regarding e-waste as they are required recycling, while the latter they are just paying to put products into the landfill.
  • Reply 55 of 63
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,546member
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. The EU had no desire to legislate. Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't. There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 
    ...
    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    It's not the ports, the protocols, power adaptor design that causes e-waste. It's that every new device comes with a cable and power adaptor in the box. For many OEMs, the accessories is a feature advantage and will continue to do superset features. The lack of a cables and power adaptors may become a negative feature, which encourages OEMs to put them in the box.

    10 years ago, not having them in the box would have been rather off-putting. So, I doubt Apple or any OEM would have shipped without them back then. Therefore, I doubt there would be any less cables in the user base if every one standardized on USBC in say 2015.

    Like I've said so many times before, if the EU wants to reduce e-waste, they should require companies recycle the products they sell and audit them. Or perhaps, use a recycling tax, but this is a less dependable option. The single best sign that e-waste is being reduced, at least as far device accessories go, is that they don't come in the box. I'm actually wondering if Apple will include USBC cables in the box for this year's cycle. Probably not. I think they will stop putting the cables in the box in the 2024 to 2025 year models.

    You can probably put all those Apple power adaptors in your drawer in a bag and give them to Apple. They should be able to recycle them.
    WEEE covers recycling. It's been in force for many years. Every single piece of WEEE equipment sold within the EU includes the cost of disposal. It's illegal in many member states to dump WEEE equipment. 

    Shipping devices without a power adapter is actually encouraged in the common charger directive. 

    E-waste is increased via fragmentation which the directive aims to reduce drastically. 
    You are saying WEEE covers recycling or disposal? The former implies the EU doesn't need to do anything else regarding e-waste as they are required recycling, while the latter they are just paying to put products into the landfill.
    Disposal isn't landfill. That's illegal basically. Disposal means 'safe disposal' of products that cannot be recycled. 

  • Reply 56 of 63
    thttht Posts: 5,365member
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. The EU had no desire to legislate. Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't. There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 
    ...
    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    It's not the ports, the protocols, power adaptor design that causes e-waste. It's that every new device comes with a cable and power adaptor in the box. For many OEMs, the accessories is a feature advantage and will continue to do superset features. The lack of a cables and power adaptors may become a negative feature, which encourages OEMs to put them in the box.

    10 years ago, not having them in the box would have been rather off-putting. So, I doubt Apple or any OEM would have shipped without them back then. Therefore, I doubt there would be any less cables in the user base if every one standardized on USBC in say 2015.

    Like I've said so many times before, if the EU wants to reduce e-waste, they should require companies recycle the products they sell and audit them. Or perhaps, use a recycling tax, but this is a less dependable option. The single best sign that e-waste is being reduced, at least as far device accessories go, is that they don't come in the box. I'm actually wondering if Apple will include USBC cables in the box for this year's cycle. Probably not. I think they will stop putting the cables in the box in the 2024 to 2025 year models.

    You can probably put all those Apple power adaptors in your drawer in a bag and give them to Apple. They should be able to recycle them.
    WEEE covers recycling. It's been in force for many years. Every single piece of WEEE equipment sold within the EU includes the cost of disposal. It's illegal in many member states to dump WEEE equipment. 

    Shipping devices without a power adapter is actually encouraged in the common charger directive. 

    E-waste is increased via fragmentation which the directive aims to reduce drastically. 
    You are saying WEEE covers recycling or disposal? The former implies the EU doesn't need to do anything else regarding e-waste as they are required recycling, while the latter they are just paying to put products into the landfill.
    Disposal isn't landfill. That's illegal basically. Disposal means 'safe disposal' of products that cannot be recycled. 

    What does disposal mean?
  • Reply 57 of 63
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,546member
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. The EU had no desire to legislate. Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't. There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 
    ...
    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    It's not the ports, the protocols, power adaptor design that causes e-waste. It's that every new device comes with a cable and power adaptor in the box. For many OEMs, the accessories is a feature advantage and will continue to do superset features. The lack of a cables and power adaptors may become a negative feature, which encourages OEMs to put them in the box.

    10 years ago, not having them in the box would have been rather off-putting. So, I doubt Apple or any OEM would have shipped without them back then. Therefore, I doubt there would be any less cables in the user base if every one standardized on USBC in say 2015.

    Like I've said so many times before, if the EU wants to reduce e-waste, they should require companies recycle the products they sell and audit them. Or perhaps, use a recycling tax, but this is a less dependable option. The single best sign that e-waste is being reduced, at least as far device accessories go, is that they don't come in the box. I'm actually wondering if Apple will include USBC cables in the box for this year's cycle. Probably not. I think they will stop putting the cables in the box in the 2024 to 2025 year models.

    You can probably put all those Apple power adaptors in your drawer in a bag and give them to Apple. They should be able to recycle them.
    WEEE covers recycling. It's been in force for many years. Every single piece of WEEE equipment sold within the EU includes the cost of disposal. It's illegal in many member states to dump WEEE equipment. 

    Shipping devices without a power adapter is actually encouraged in the common charger directive. 

    E-waste is increased via fragmentation which the directive aims to reduce drastically. 
    You are saying WEEE covers recycling or disposal? The former implies the EU doesn't need to do anything else regarding e-waste as they are required recycling, while the latter they are just paying to put products into the landfill.
    Disposal isn't landfill. That's illegal basically. Disposal means 'safe disposal' of products that cannot be recycled. 

    What does disposal mean?
    Safe disposal means safe, controlled disposal to minimise the impact on the environment or people. It can include the treatment of things like toxic/poisonous/corrosive materials, gases and anything that cannot be reused or recycled.


  • Reply 58 of 63
    thttht Posts: 5,365member
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. The EU had no desire to legislate. Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't. There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 
    ...
    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    It's not the ports, the protocols, power adaptor design that causes e-waste. It's that every new device comes with a cable and power adaptor in the box. For many OEMs, the accessories is a feature advantage and will continue to do superset features. The lack of a cables and power adaptors may become a negative feature, which encourages OEMs to put them in the box.

    10 years ago, not having them in the box would have been rather off-putting. So, I doubt Apple or any OEM would have shipped without them back then. Therefore, I doubt there would be any less cables in the user base if every one standardized on USBC in say 2015.

    Like I've said so many times before, if the EU wants to reduce e-waste, they should require companies recycle the products they sell and audit them. Or perhaps, use a recycling tax, but this is a less dependable option. The single best sign that e-waste is being reduced, at least as far device accessories go, is that they don't come in the box. I'm actually wondering if Apple will include USBC cables in the box for this year's cycle. Probably not. I think they will stop putting the cables in the box in the 2024 to 2025 year models.

    You can probably put all those Apple power adaptors in your drawer in a bag and give them to Apple. They should be able to recycle them.
    WEEE covers recycling. It's been in force for many years. Every single piece of WEEE equipment sold within the EU includes the cost of disposal. It's illegal in many member states to dump WEEE equipment. 

    Shipping devices without a power adapter is actually encouraged in the common charger directive. 

    E-waste is increased via fragmentation which the directive aims to reduce drastically. 
    You are saying WEEE covers recycling or disposal? The former implies the EU doesn't need to do anything else regarding e-waste as they are required recycling, while the latter they are just paying to put products into the landfill.
    Disposal isn't landfill. That's illegal basically. Disposal means 'safe disposal' of products that cannot be recycled. 

    What does disposal mean?
    Safe disposal means safe, controlled disposal to minimise the impact on the environment or people. It can include the treatment of things like toxic/poisonous/corrosive materials, gases and anything that cannot be reused or recycled.


    Where does this trash go?
  • Reply 59 of 63
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,546member
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    avon b7 said:
    tht said:
    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. The EU had no desire to legislate. Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't. There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 
    ...
    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    It's not the ports, the protocols, power adaptor design that causes e-waste. It's that every new device comes with a cable and power adaptor in the box. For many OEMs, the accessories is a feature advantage and will continue to do superset features. The lack of a cables and power adaptors may become a negative feature, which encourages OEMs to put them in the box.

    10 years ago, not having them in the box would have been rather off-putting. So, I doubt Apple or any OEM would have shipped without them back then. Therefore, I doubt there would be any less cables in the user base if every one standardized on USBC in say 2015.

    Like I've said so many times before, if the EU wants to reduce e-waste, they should require companies recycle the products they sell and audit them. Or perhaps, use a recycling tax, but this is a less dependable option. The single best sign that e-waste is being reduced, at least as far device accessories go, is that they don't come in the box. I'm actually wondering if Apple will include USBC cables in the box for this year's cycle. Probably not. I think they will stop putting the cables in the box in the 2024 to 2025 year models.

    You can probably put all those Apple power adaptors in your drawer in a bag and give them to Apple. They should be able to recycle them.
    WEEE covers recycling. It's been in force for many years. Every single piece of WEEE equipment sold within the EU includes the cost of disposal. It's illegal in many member states to dump WEEE equipment. 

    Shipping devices without a power adapter is actually encouraged in the common charger directive. 

    E-waste is increased via fragmentation which the directive aims to reduce drastically. 
    You are saying WEEE covers recycling or disposal? The former implies the EU doesn't need to do anything else regarding e-waste as they are required recycling, while the latter they are just paying to put products into the landfill.
    Disposal isn't landfill. That's illegal basically. Disposal means 'safe disposal' of products that cannot be recycled. 

    What does disposal mean?
    Safe disposal means safe, controlled disposal to minimise the impact on the environment or people. It can include the treatment of things like toxic/poisonous/corrosive materials, gases and anything that cannot be reused or recycled.


    Where does this trash go?
    I don't know the exact processes (they are in continuous development) but it doesn't go to regular landfill and the 'trash' you are referring to is treated so it's not the same 'trash'. Sometimes waste can be sealed and stored. Sometimes it can be neutralised in a hazardous waste reactor system. Sometimes a landfill approach is used for scale but that landfill is not your regular landfill. It is more akin to a registered safe storage area.

    I was involved in part of the original WEEE draft process so I had access to the texts as they were amended. The term was always 'safe disposal'. The WEEE directive is closely linked to the RoHS directive which aims to reduce the use of hazardous materials in the first place. 
  • Reply 60 of 63
    thttht Posts: 5,365member
    avon b7 said:
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    designr said:
    Out of (genuine) curiosity, does anyone have a source (link) that estimates how much, let's say in total cubic footage, waste there would be if, for example, every single Lightning cable in the world was thrown away?

    This is a serious question. There are many claims of waste. I'm curious if there are any estimates of how many cubic feet of waste it might be.
    No source, but you can do the math. A Lightning cable is a 1 meter long cord with about 0.003 meter diameter. That’s 7E-6 m3. Over a year, Apple sells about 200m iPhones for about 1413 m3, or a cube that is 11.2 m per side. Or a cube 40 ft per side. 

    The claims of reducing e-waste for standardization on USBC obviously didn’t make sense. There is much much bigger waste to deal with.

    The best reason to standardize on USBC is to make using rechargeable battery powered devices easy to charge. Over time, you can get a charge anywhere as everyone will use USBC. 

    Saving e-waste? Nope. All the standardization is doing replacing Lightning cable “e-waste” with USBC cable e-waste. Only way e-waste is saved is if OEMs stop putting cables in the box. When that happens, yes, e-waste will be saved. Not much, but it will be saved. Whether that happens is an interesting question. 

    The best way to save on e-waste is to force OEMs to take back their devices and have them recycled, be audited, otherwise they can’t sell the device. 

    The e-waste reduction claims absolutely do make sense.

    It's important to remember that the common charger directive is not restricted to phones. It covers an entire swathe of the industry for which no end of propietery chargers currently exist. That will all change. One charger will technically be enough. Of course that is the whole point. To reduce fragmentation. 

    The common charger directive itself is simply part of a broader initiative with common goals. That's why designing for repair is also being dealt with. Along with longer warranties and longer parts availability and software support etc. 
    You're talking about charging bricks/blocks. I'm talking about charging cables. What's the point about talking about charging bricks when Apple has been using USBC-PD charging bricks for years now and has stopped putting charging bricks in iPhone bricks in boxes for a couple of years now?

    Heck, when Apple said that charging bricks and headphones weren't going to be in iPhone boxes anymore, and that it would reduce e-waste, there were articles like this:

    https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/16/21519466/apple-iphone-12-chargers-airpods-greenhouse-gas-emissions-e-waste

    "Apple ditching chargers saves costs but not the planet"

    Even when limited to cables, it's a lot of cables. 

    It is important to step back and fully understand how we got to this point. The EU had no desire to legislate. Many people still believe that micro-USB was legislated back in the day. It wasn't. There was a huge problem with charging back then and something had to be done.

    The EU nudged the industry to find a 'universal' solution. It resulted in a MoU and was quite successful but guess who ended up not getting on board? Fast forward and the situation still wasn't as good as it could be, so this time around, the EU decided to wrap everything up into one broad directive which specifically targeted charging. Once again the upshot will be a huge win on many levels. 

    Even Apple realises that USB-C is the best common solution. 
    ...
    Apple shipped a 5W charger with every phone for a decade knowing full well the situation of the user. It shipped them without a consideration for the environment or 'innovation'. Just this weekend I cleared out a drawer full of electrical stuff and found five Apple 5W chargers. Four of them probably unused. 
    It's not the ports, the protocols, power adaptor design that causes e-waste. It's that every new device comes with a cable and power adaptor in the box. For many OEMs, the accessories is a feature advantage and will continue to do superset features. The lack of a cables and power adaptors may become a negative feature, which encourages OEMs to put them in the box.

    10 years ago, not having them in the box would have been rather off-putting. So, I doubt Apple or any OEM would have shipped without them back then. Therefore, I doubt there would be any less cables in the user base if every one standardized on USBC in say 2015.

    Like I've said so many times before, if the EU wants to reduce e-waste, they should require companies recycle the products they sell and audit them. Or perhaps, use a recycling tax, but this is a less dependable option. The single best sign that e-waste is being reduced, at least as far device accessories go, is that they don't come in the box. I'm actually wondering if Apple will include USBC cables in the box for this year's cycle. Probably not. I think they will stop putting the cables in the box in the 2024 to 2025 year models.

    You can probably put all those Apple power adaptors in your drawer in a bag and give them to Apple. They should be able to recycle them.
    WEEE covers recycling. It's been in force for many years. Every single piece of WEEE equipment sold within the EU includes the cost of disposal. It's illegal in many member states to dump WEEE equipment. 

    Shipping devices without a power adapter is actually encouraged in the common charger directive. 

    E-waste is increased via fragmentation which the directive aims to reduce drastically. 
    You are saying WEEE covers recycling or disposal? The former implies the EU doesn't need to do anything else regarding e-waste as they are required recycling, while the latter they are just paying to put products into the landfill.
    Disposal isn't landfill. That's illegal basically. Disposal means 'safe disposal' of products that cannot be recycled. 

    What does disposal mean?
    Safe disposal means safe, controlled disposal to minimise the impact on the environment or people. It can include the treatment of things like toxic/poisonous/corrosive materials, gases and anything that cannot be reused or recycled.


    Where does this trash go?
    I don't know the exact processes (they are in continuous development) but it doesn't go to regular landfill and the 'trash' you are referring to is treated so it's not the same 'trash'. Sometimes waste can be sealed and stored. Sometimes it can be neutralised in a hazardous waste reactor system. Sometimes a landfill approach is used for scale but that landfill is not your regular landfill. It is more akin to a registered safe storage area.

    I was involved in part of the original WEEE draft process so I had access to the texts as they were amended. The term was always 'safe disposal'. The WEEE directive is closely linked to the RoHS directive which aims to reduce the use of hazardous materials in the first place. 
    Based on these web links:

    https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20180328STO00751/waste-management-in-the-eu-infographic-with-facts-and-figures

    https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20181212STO21610/plastic-waste-and-recycling-in-the-eu-facts-and-figures

    It seems the EU is not much further along than any other country of similar economy and lifestyle. A significant fraction of the waste is exported, mostly to Turkey, who I presume either puts it into a landfill or burns it. Of the waste that stays in-country, some fraction of it is recycled, some fraction is composted, and some fraction is "landfilled". 42% of plastic waste in the EU is burned? I assume that's what "energy recovery" means.

    Would like to see the splits. Well, would like to see the actual end to end life cycle of various products to be really sure.

    In the end, it still boils down to the same damn thing every time. Plastics - at least plastic packaging and single use plastics - and styrofoam must be banned. Not even produced. Any product that is sold should be made of compostable and recycled materials; and, the producers of said products must be forced to take it back to have it recycled and disposed of.
    muthuk_vanalingam
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