TSMC's Arizona factory won't break Apple's overseas chip reliance

Posted:
in General Discussion edited September 2023

TSMC's under-construction Arizona chip plant will help further US chip production interests for Apple, and is a great talking point -- but it's not going to break the company's reliance on overseas silicon manufacturing.

TSMC's headquarters in Hsinchu, Taiwan
TSMC's headquarters in Hsinchu, Taiwan



The TSMC plant being made in Arizona has been deemed a political success for the U.S. in regards to global chip production. Even Apple's Tim Cook has hailed the opportunity as "investing in a stronger, brighter future" with chips "proudly stamped Made in America."

But while the chips will be made on U.S. soil, they won't be finished there. According to TSMC engineers and former Apple employees speaking to The Information, the chips will still need to leave the United States for TSMC to fully assemble them.

Rather than fully shifting chip production to the United States, some of the work is carried out in North America but they are still sent back to Taiwan to be packaged using advanced techniques not easily available elsewhere without sufficient supply chain throughput.

TSMC isn't planning to construct a chip packaging facility in the United States at all, due to the high costs of the project, TSMC employees claimed. It is also reckoned that the Arizona facility won't make enough chips to justify building an advanced packaging facility in the region.

According to SemiAnalysis chief analyst Dylan Patel, "The TSMC Arizona fab is effectively a paperweight in any geopolitical tension or war [with China over Taiwan] due to the fact that it still requires sending the chips back to Taiwan for packaging."

It is possible that Apple will use the facility and not need to send chips to Taiwan, as the company hasn't said what chips will actually be made in Arizona. For some low-importance chips, they could be packaged using processes available outside of Taiwan.

Apple relies on an Integrated Fan-out Package on Package method devised by TSMC, and it is the only customer using the process at high volumes. Apple receives a discount on the packaging process, as it is bundled as part of a processor die contract.

With Apple relying on TSMC's packaging techniques more over time, it is likely that TSMC will keep pressuring Apple to use its Taiwan packaging facilities in the future.

While TSMC seemingly isn't interested in making a packaging plant in the United States, the U.S. government knows it has to do something about it.

As part of the CHIPS Act, at least $2.5 billion of the $52 billion in chip firm subsidies has been earmarked for a "National Advanced Packaging Manufacturing Program."

While there is the intention to build multiple advanced packaging facilities in the U.S. under the proposals, the relatively low amount of subsidies on offer for packaging is unlikely to help draw more producers to build high-cost operations in the country.

Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 11
    OK, why are we judging this plant as if it only exists to make Apple processors? My understanding is it won’t be on the latest nodes, but will still be able to crank out a lot of other types of chips. Processors aren’t the only thing fabs make, and not everything they make needs the newest processes.
    baconstangFileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 11
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,875member
    It’s a feel good project, to really change the game. You need time at least 10 to 15 years, and the will to execute and last, but not least lots and lots of money. Even with Apple money, combined with design and engineering, it took Apple 13 years to replace and Intel.

    It can be done, but the time needed is measured in decades, it’s definitely not an overnight three-year project.
    edited September 2023 FileMakerFellerwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 11
    The headline sets up a useless and misleading dichotomy -- either the plant "breaks overseas chip reliance" or not. In reality, there's a very real (not just "feel good") advantage to REDUCING that reliance. All or nothing thinking is a good way to end up with nothing. 


    muthuk_vanalingamtyler82Alex_Vwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 11
    danox said:
    It’s a feel good project, to really change the game. You need time at least 10 to 15 years, and the will to execute and last, but not least lots and lots of money. Even with Apple money, combined with design and engineering, it took Apple 13 years to replace and Intel.

    It can be done, but the time needed is measured in decades, it’s definitely not an overnight three-year project.
    True. To maintain profits, Apple will choose the best route not just yielding to political pressures. 
    Alex_V
  • Reply 5 of 11
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,348member
    OK, why are we judging this plant as if it only exists to make Apple processors? My understanding is it won’t be on the latest nodes, but will still be able to crank out a lot of other types of chips. Processors aren’t the only thing fabs make, and not everything they make needs the newest processes.
    National Security.

    Lots of ARM designs used in military systems, so the need for a fab on U.S. soil, in case Xi decides to invade Taiwan. As Intel opens itself to fab work, that's another avenue.


    Example; F-35 TR-3 upgrade;

    https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2023/07/f-35-test-squadron-works-wring-out-upgrade-problems/388478/

    Jackson’s squadron is testing a suite of hardware and software improvements, known as Technology Refresh 3, or TR-3, that will be the backbone for Block 4—the Pentagon’s effort to equip the F-35 for fights in the decades to come. New F-35s are being produced with TR-3 gear—but the Pentagon has stopped accepting them until the hardware can reliably run the current TR-2 software, a spokesman for the F-35 joint program office said.

    TR-3 will bring 20 to 25 times more computing power, plus more memory and a new panoramic cockpit display, said Maj. Adam "Hawk" Fuhrmann, the squadron’s chief of projects.

    blastdoorwatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 11
    tmay said:
    OK, why are we judging this plant as if it only exists to make Apple processors? My understanding is it won’t be on the latest nodes, but will still be able to crank out a lot of other types of chips. Processors aren’t the only thing fabs make, and not everything they make needs the newest processes.
    National Security.

    Lots of ARM designs used in military systems, so the need for a fab on U.S. soil, in case Xi decides to invade Taiwan. As Intel opens itself to fab work, that's another avenue.


    Example; F-35 TR-3 upgrade;

    https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2023/07/f-35-test-squadron-works-wring-out-upgrade-problems/388478/

    Jackson’s squadron is testing a suite of hardware and software improvements, known as Technology Refresh 3, or TR-3, that will be the backbone for Block 4—the Pentagon’s effort to equip the F-35 for fights in the decades to come. New F-35s are being produced with TR-3 gear—but the Pentagon has stopped accepting them until the hardware can reliably run the current TR-2 software, a spokesman for the F-35 joint program office said.

    TR-3 will bring 20 to 25 times more computing power, plus more memory and a new panoramic cockpit display, said Maj. Adam "Hawk" Fuhrmann, the squadron’s chief of projects.

    US $900 B defense budget is being put in good use. But the question is why US wants to create enemies? Is this part of Christian culture, exclusive.
  • Reply 7 of 11
    tmay said:
    OK, why are we judging this plant as if it only exists to make Apple processors? My understanding is it won’t be on the latest nodes, but will still be able to crank out a lot of other types of chips. Processors aren’t the only thing fabs make, and not everything they make needs the newest processes.
    National Security.

    Lots of ARM designs used in military systems, so the need for a fab on U.S. soil, in case Xi decides to invade Taiwan. As Intel opens itself to fab work, that's another avenue.


    Example; F-35 TR-3 upgrade;

    https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2023/07/f-35-test-squadron-works-wring-out-upgrade-problems/388478/

    Jackson’s squadron is testing a suite of hardware and software improvements, known as Technology Refresh 3, or TR-3, that will be the backbone for Block 4—the Pentagon’s effort to equip the F-35 for fights in the decades to come. New F-35s are being produced with TR-3 gear—but the Pentagon has stopped accepting them until the hardware can reliably run the current TR-2 software, a spokesman for the F-35 joint program office said.

    TR-3 will bring 20 to 25 times more computing power, plus more memory and a new panoramic cockpit display, said Maj. Adam "Hawk" Fuhrmann, the squadron’s chief of projects.

    US $900 B defense budget is being put in good use. But the question is why US wants to create enemies? Is this part of Christian culture, exclusive.
    The US obviously made a huge mistake believing that we could reduce defense spending after the Cold War, and that China and Russia would embrace democracy after embracing capitalism. Perhaps those overly optimistic expectations were due to Christian values, I'm not sure. 

    But instead of American beneficence towards Russia and China encouraging those countries to move towards democracy, it just emboldened two dictators to pursue imperialistic expansion. And so, in that sense, perhaps we did "create" these two enemies. But it certainly wasn't what we wanted. 

    The corollary, though, is that emperor Xi and czar Putin have created more allies for the United States. Now everyone sees the deep evil in the leadership of those two countries. NATO has expanded and many countries in the Indo-Pacific region are moving towards the US and our allies in Japan and Australia. The evil will be contained. 
    watto_cobratmay
  • Reply 8 of 11
    blastdoor said:
    tmay said:
    OK, why are we judging this plant as if it only exists to make Apple processors? My understanding is it won’t be on the latest nodes, but will still be able to crank out a lot of other types of chips. Processors aren’t the only thing fabs make, and not everything they make needs the newest processes.
    National Security.

    Lots of ARM designs used in military systems, so the need for a fab on U.S. soil, in case Xi decides to invade Taiwan. As Intel opens itself to fab work, that's another avenue.


    Example; F-35 TR-3 upgrade;

    https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2023/07/f-35-test-squadron-works-wring-out-upgrade-problems/388478/

    Jackson’s squadron is testing a suite of hardware and software improvements, known as Technology Refresh 3, or TR-3, that will be the backbone for Block 4—the Pentagon’s effort to equip the F-35 for fights in the decades to come. New F-35s are being produced with TR-3 gear—but the Pentagon has stopped accepting them until the hardware can reliably run the current TR-2 software, a spokesman for the F-35 joint program office said.

    TR-3 will bring 20 to 25 times more computing power, plus more memory and a new panoramic cockpit display, said Maj. Adam "Hawk" Fuhrmann, the squadron’s chief of projects.

    US $900 B defense budget is being put in good use. But the question is why US wants to create enemies? Is this part of Christian culture, exclusive.
    The US obviously made a huge mistake believing that we could reduce defense spending after the Cold War, and that China and Russia would embrace democracy after embracing capitalism. Perhaps those overly optimistic expectations were due to Christian values, I'm not sure. 

    But instead of American beneficence towards Russia and China encouraging those countries to move towards democracy, it just emboldened two dictators to pursue imperialistic expansion. And so, in that sense, perhaps we did "create" these two enemies. But it certainly wasn't what we wanted. 

    The corollary, though, is that emperor Xi and czar Putin have created more allies for the United States. Now everyone sees the deep evil in the leadership of those two countries. NATO has expanded and many countries in the Indo-Pacific region are moving towards the US and our allies in Japan and Australia. The evil will be contained. 
    US pushs for democracy is exactly the reason that created Xi and Putin. You put the blame in wrong order. 
  • Reply 9 of 11
    blastdoor said:
    tmay said:
    OK, why are we judging this plant as if it only exists to make Apple processors? My understanding is it won’t be on the latest nodes, but will still be able to crank out a lot of other types of chips. Processors aren’t the only thing fabs make, and not everything they make needs the newest processes.
    National Security.

    Lots of ARM designs used in military systems, so the need for a fab on U.S. soil, in case Xi decides to invade Taiwan. As Intel opens itself to fab work, that's another avenue.


    Example; F-35 TR-3 upgrade;

    https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2023/07/f-35-test-squadron-works-wring-out-upgrade-problems/388478/

    Jackson’s squadron is testing a suite of hardware and software improvements, known as Technology Refresh 3, or TR-3, that will be the backbone for Block 4—the Pentagon’s effort to equip the F-35 for fights in the decades to come. New F-35s are being produced with TR-3 gear—but the Pentagon has stopped accepting them until the hardware can reliably run the current TR-2 software, a spokesman for the F-35 joint program office said.

    TR-3 will bring 20 to 25 times more computing power, plus more memory and a new panoramic cockpit display, said Maj. Adam "Hawk" Fuhrmann, the squadron’s chief of projects.

    US $900 B defense budget is being put in good use. But the question is why US wants to create enemies? Is this part of Christian culture, exclusive.
    The US obviously made a huge mistake believing that we could reduce defense spending after the Cold War, and that China and Russia would embrace democracy after embracing capitalism. Perhaps those overly optimistic expectations were due to Christian values, I'm not sure. 

    But instead of American beneficence towards Russia and China encouraging those countries to move towards democracy, it just emboldened two dictators to pursue imperialistic expansion. And so, in that sense, perhaps we did "create" these two enemies. But it certainly wasn't what we wanted. 

    The corollary, though, is that emperor Xi and czar Putin have created more allies for the United States. Now everyone sees the deep evil in the leadership of those two countries. NATO has expanded and many countries in the Indo-Pacific region are moving towards the US and our allies in Japan and Australia. The evil will be contained. 
    US pushs for democracy is exactly the reason that created Xi and Putin. You put the blame in wrong order. 
    Kind of like how you can't have criminals without laws to break. 
  • Reply 10 of 11
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,348member
    blastdoor said:
    tmay said:
    OK, why are we judging this plant as if it only exists to make Apple processors? My understanding is it won’t be on the latest nodes, but will still be able to crank out a lot of other types of chips. Processors aren’t the only thing fabs make, and not everything they make needs the newest processes.
    National Security.

    Lots of ARM designs used in military systems, so the need for a fab on U.S. soil, in case Xi decides to invade Taiwan. As Intel opens itself to fab work, that's another avenue.


    Example; F-35 TR-3 upgrade;

    https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2023/07/f-35-test-squadron-works-wring-out-upgrade-problems/388478/

    Jackson’s squadron is testing a suite of hardware and software improvements, known as Technology Refresh 3, or TR-3, that will be the backbone for Block 4—the Pentagon’s effort to equip the F-35 for fights in the decades to come. New F-35s are being produced with TR-3 gear—but the Pentagon has stopped accepting them until the hardware can reliably run the current TR-2 software, a spokesman for the F-35 joint program office said.

    TR-3 will bring 20 to 25 times more computing power, plus more memory and a new panoramic cockpit display, said Maj. Adam "Hawk" Fuhrmann, the squadron’s chief of projects.

    US $900 B defense budget is being put in good use. But the question is why US wants to create enemies? Is this part of Christian culture, exclusive.
    The US obviously made a huge mistake believing that we could reduce defense spending after the Cold War, and that China and Russia would embrace democracy after embracing capitalism. Perhaps those overly optimistic expectations were due to Christian values, I'm not sure. 

    But instead of American beneficence towards Russia and China encouraging those countries to move towards democracy, it just emboldened two dictators to pursue imperialistic expansion. And so, in that sense, perhaps we did "create" these two enemies. But it certainly wasn't what we wanted. 

    The corollary, though, is that emperor Xi and czar Putin have created more allies for the United States. Now everyone sees the deep evil in the leadership of those two countries. NATO has expanded and many countries in the Indo-Pacific region are moving towards the US and our allies in Japan and Australia. The evil will be contained. 
    US pushs for democracy is exactly the reason that created Xi and Putin. You put the blame in wrong order. 
    It would be an easier argument for you to make that China's rapid growth is due to President Nixon's move to create an alliance with China against Russia during the Cold War.

    That the Chinese people experienced some liberation is later is true, but then Xi came along, and created a new autocracy center around himself, and now the economy has stagnated.


    edited September 2023 blastdoor
  • Reply 11 of 11
    Maybe not.  TSMC and Arizona currently discussing adding an assembly site
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