This is 100% true. Google is in fact pushing their own fork of RCS and not any kind of open standard. If they were serious then they’d be whining to the telcos to adopt RCS as their standard instead of SMS. Instead they’re crying about Apple to try and build support for Android.
They didn't have to whine.
All the majors in the US adopted RCS as a standard two years ago, some earlier than that. Overseas RCS is included as a standard on numerous carriers, including most of the larger ones. If you doubt that, have a look for yourself. It's easy enough to find.
If Apple implements please give us a way to revert to SMS when the Android losers are in a group text. I don’t want my texts flowing through Google hands.
If Apple implements please give us a way to revert to SMS when the Android losers are in a group text. I don’t want my texts flowing through Google hands.
They're E2EE so Google won't have their hands on them. Do your research, more facts and less hand-wringing.
whatever the chosen method.... Apple should introduce a cross platform messenger
Why? There're plenty of cross platform messaging services and by all account WhatsApp and Facebook Messenger have over 85%of the global marketshare. It's only in the US where iMessage is the more popular because in the US, iOS (including iPads) have close to 60% market share. (Macs are also more popular in the US, than anywhere else.) For nearly the rest of the world, WhatsApp is the more popular messaging service, even on iPhones. Why should Apple compete with either of those free messaging services or with any of the other free cross platform messaging services available? Why should Apple take on the headache of maintaining iMessage on Android? It's not like Apple have to rely on mining users data for targeted ads.
iMessage was never meant to be cross platform. The only reason why iMessage can message to Android with SMS is because ALL mobile phones are required to have an SMS client since ALL mobile carriers uses SMS as their messaging standard. Since iMessage is also the SMS client on iPhones, iPhone users can send and receive SMS using iMessage. But that is not a requirement. And iPhone users can install a number of different SMS clients, in order to send and receive SMS messages. But most will just let iMessage handle it.
With Android, only Google Messages (and Samsung Messages) can handle RCS messaging. And guess what Google Messages does when the receiver is not using Google Messages .... it defaults to SMS. Every mobile carrier supply their own SMS client for Android phones. Even mobile phones with prepaid minutes, can send and receive SMS without having to pay for data.
SMS is not a standard because it's cross platform. It's a standard because every mobile carrier uses it (even those that have converted to RCS) and every mobile user with a voice plan can use it without having to install any other software or pay for data. Every Android phone can send and receive RCS but only if they enable Google Messages. And since most Android users are already using some other superior messaging service, most users have absolutely no need to use Google Messages. (SMS can be handled by their mobile carrier SMS client.) Unless all their friends with iPhones (that are using iMessage), starts sending RCS messages (instead of SMS). And there lies why Google wants Apple to convert to RCS instead of SMS, (when using iMessage to message Android users). Funny how even though Google is claiming RCS is some sort of standard, they do not allow any other Android messaging service (except for Samsung) to handle RCS messaging on Android. And yet they're claiming iMessage is the one holding up RCS from becoming the cross platform standard.
If Apple implements please give us a way to revert to SMS when the Android losers are in a group text. I don’t want my texts flowing through Google hands.
They're E2EE so Google won't have their hands on them. Do your research, more facts and less hand-wringing.
No, you are the one that need to do more research.
In order to for mobile carriers to offer E2EE with RCS messaging, they have to use Google version of RCS and they HAVE to be using Jibe Mobile services. And guess who bought out Jibe Mobile about 10 years ago? Google. So don't misinform people here that Google don't have their hands on E2EE with RCS. Google will still know who is messaging to who. If Google knows everything about one of those "who", they can figure out what ads to target to the other "who", even if they don't know the contents of the E2EE message. Don't short change Google, they are the best at what they do when it comes to data mining.
And don't forget, RCS messages default to SMS if the receiver is not using Google Messages. No E2EE possible there.
If Apple implements please give us a way to revert to SMS when the Android losers are in a group text. I don’t want my texts flowing through Google hands.
They're E2EE so Google won't have their hands on them. Do your research, more facts and less hand-wringing.
No, you are the one that need to do more research.
In order to for mobile carriers to offer E2EE with RCS messaging, they have to use Google version of RCS and they HAVE to be using Jibe Mobile services. And guess who bought out Jibe Mobile about 10 years ago? Google. So don't misinform people here that Google don't have their hands on E2EE with RCS.
E2EE is E2EE. Knowing someone sent a message does not reveal the contents, unless you're claiming Google lies about the E2EE and can somehow "get their hands on that message" which was the concern of the OP. Otherwise I'm 100% correct, and no more research required.
If Apple employs RCS as Google suggests as an additional messaging standard it will be just as secure as it is using Apple' proprietary Messages, and more secure than the fallback SMS that Apple now uses.
Don't try to mislead readers into thinking Google RCS is somehow less secure and private than Messages without evidence of it being a fact. Google can't get their hands on your messages any more than Apple can.
Well technically Apple does have more potential access to your actual messages than Google does with Google RCS messages on their platform doesn't it, if you include platform-specific cloud backups? That would be something interesting for you to look into. Your research is generally pretty good and I would love reading what you find, and I doubt I'm the only one.
Because there is a whole world outside the Apple Cocoon.
Look at the numbers being inside the Apple cocoon is nice and prosperous. Apple has no reason to whatsoever to stoop to Google’s level. After all, it’s Google who’s paying Apple for a default position not the other way around, if they don’t like it stop writing the check and get out.
Because there is a whole world outside the Apple Cocoon.
Look at the numbers being inside the Apple cocoon is nice and prosperous. Apple has no reason to whatsoever to stoop to Google’s level. After all, it’s Google who’s paying Apple for a default position not the other way around, if they don’t like it stop writing the check and get out.
Google has no expectation of shaming Apple into adopting RCS with the iPager ad. That's a job for regulators.
This campaign serves a different purpose: Making an Apple service seem less attractive, stodgy, dusty and old, living in the past per-se. From that angle Google's marketing gets a bit more traction. Oh, and a perfect parody of an Apple ad.
This is 100% true. Google is in fact pushing their own fork of RCS and not any kind of open standard. If they were serious then they’d be whining to the telcos to adopt RCS as their standard instead of SMS. Instead they’re crying about Apple to try and build support for Android.
They didn't have to whine.
All the majors in the US adopted RCS as a standard two years ago, some earlier than that. Overseas RCS is included as a standard on numerous carriers, including most of the larger ones. If you doubt that, have a look for yourself. It's easy enough to find.
Actually, yes they did. Hence the cringeworthy little as they made. It’s not the first either.
Apple has the best messaging. That’s unlikely to change. Google sees that iMessage is so loved and no one really cares about their deal. It’s just there. So they try to shame Apple for being great and not giving their shadowy organization some shine as well. In the end, all that does is let everyone know that Google realizes Apple is better and their products have superior differentiators. Meanwhile Google can keep whining and whining and whining… wasting money on creatively whining, and whining some more - all to the shame and dismay of their customers.
Perhaps one day Apple will allow Google to pay N exorbitant license fee per user to use iMessage. But I doubt it.
Apple makes better stuff. They just do. And more reliable stuff. and longer lasting stuff. And better looking stuff. And more enjoyable stuff. Easier to use stuff (except for Apple Music. Blech). Apples customers are also the most loyal. Why? Because apple is the most loyal to them. Continuously building the best stuff and even when something isn’t a hit, they give it a chance to turn around for their customers. iMessage being fantastic is just a piece of the puzzle. But even Google knows that. They are just trying to paint apple as a whole as a bad guy somehow. As if it were apples Job to help Google get good at things.
whatever the chosen method.... Apple should introduce a cross platform messenger.
There is literally nothing wrong with the current implementation.
Google just wants everyone to use their standard instead of Apple’s better standard.
Apple doesn't offer a standard.
Actually, iMessage is the defacto standard for the U.S., and that happened because Google. et al, collectively couldn't get their shit together for more than a decade, and then they finally birthed RCS.
whatever the chosen method.... Apple should introduce a cross platform messenger.
There is literally nothing wrong with the current implementation.
Google just wants everyone to use their standard instead of Apple’s better standard.
Apple doesn't offer a standard.
Actually, iMessage is the defacto standard for the U.S., and that happened because Google. et al, collectively couldn't get their shit together for more than a decade, and then they finally birthed RCS.
Y'all are late to the party. Sad.
"Blackberry messaging is the de-facto standard. Sorry Apple, y'all are late to the party. Sad"
If Apple implements please give us a way to revert to SMS when the Android losers are in a group text. I don’t want my texts flowing through Google hands.
They're E2EE so Google won't have their hands on them. Do your research, more facts and less hand-wringing.
No, you are the one that need to do more research.
In order to for mobile carriers to offer E2EE with RCS messaging, they have to use Google version of RCS and they HAVE to be using Jibe Mobile services. And guess who bought out Jibe Mobile about 10 years ago? Google. So don't misinform people here that Google don't have their hands on E2EE with RCS.
E2EE is E2EE. Knowing someone sent a message does not reveal the contents, unless you're claiming Google lies about the E2EE and can somehow "get their hands on that message" which was the concern of the OP. Otherwise I'm 100% correct, and no more research required.
If Apple employs RCS as Google suggests as an additional messaging standard it will be just as secure as it is using Apple' proprietary Messages, and more secure than the fallback SMS that Apple now uses.
Don't try to mislead readers into thinking Google RCS is somehow less secure and private than Messages without evidence of it being a fact. Google can't get their hands on your messages any more than Apple can.
Well technically Apple does have more potential access to your actual messages than Google does with Google RCS messages on their platform doesn't it, if you include platform-specific cloud backups? That would be something interesting for you to look into. Your research is generally pretty good and I would love reading what you find, and I doubt I'm the only one.
No you are not 100% correct. The OP you responded to was not referring to Google being able to read an E2EE messages. Which you are 100% correct in that they can't.
E2EE can only happen when the sender(s) and receiver(s) are on the same server. With iMessage, E2EE is possible because the sender(s) and receiver(s) are using Apple servers. in a group chat, if any person in the chat is on Android (and using SMS), the whole chat loses E2EE. The green bubble on the iPhone informs the iMessage users that the chat is no longer E2EE for anyone in the chat.
The same is true for Google RCS chat. RCS is only E2EE if all the people in the chat are on the Jibe Mobile servers (which is now own by Google). So in a group RCS chat, if any person in the chat is not on the Jibe Mobile servers, the whole group messaging loses E2EE and the all the messaging are now in Google hands.
This was what the OP that you were responding to was referring to. Just like how if an Android user enter into a chat originated with iMessage, all the messaging loses E2EE and are in Apple hands because they are on Apple servers.
>The biggest encryption caveat is for the built-in texting apps on iPhones and most Android phones in the United States. Those are Apple’s Messages app, also known as iMessage, and the Messages by Google app.
If you use Apple’s app, texts that you send and receive are only end-to-end encrypted if everyone else in the chat is using that app.
If the text you see is in blue, the contents of messages are end-to-end encrypted for everyone in the chat.
Even if Apple wanted to read your texts, it doesn’t have a key to unscramble those messages. (There’s a caveat in the next section about backup copies.)
But the dreaded green bubbles are Apple’s warning. If you’re in a group chat with three people using Apple’s chat app and one person on an Android phone, no one’s texts are end-to-end encrypted.<
If Apple implements please give us a way to revert to SMS when the Android losers are in a group text. I don’t want my texts flowing through Google hands.
They're E2EE so Google won't have their hands on them. Do your research, more facts and less hand-wringing.
No, you are the one that need to do more research.
In order to for mobile carriers to offer E2EE with RCS messaging, they have to use Google version of RCS and they HAVE to be using Jibe Mobile services. And guess who bought out Jibe Mobile about 10 years ago? Google. So don't misinform people here that Google don't have their hands on E2EE with RCS.
E2EE is E2EE. Knowing someone sent a message does not reveal the contents, unless you're claiming Google lies about the E2EE and can somehow "get their hands on that message" which was the concern of the OP. Otherwise I'm 100% correct, and no more research required.
If Apple employs RCS as Google suggests as an additional messaging standard it will be just as secure as it is using Apple' proprietary Messages, and more secure than the fallback SMS that Apple now uses.
Don't try to mislead readers into thinking Google RCS is somehow less secure and private than Messages without evidence of it being a fact. Google can't get their hands on your messages any more than Apple can.
Well technically Apple does have more potential access to your actual messages than Google does with Google RCS messages on their platform doesn't it, if you include platform-specific cloud backups? That would be something interesting for you to look into. Your research is generally pretty good and I would love reading what you find, and I doubt I'm the only one.
Even if Apple wanted to read your texts, it doesn’t have a key to unscramble those messages. (There’s a caveat in the next section about backup copies.)
But the dreaded green bubbles are Apple’s warning. If you’re in a group chat with three people using Apple’s chat app and one person on an Android phone, no one’s texts are end-to-end encrypted.<
Why did you stop? You were doing so good. You mentioned a caveat without expanding on it. What is it, and does that same caveat apply to backups on current Google Android phones, or even those from the past four years or so?
As for no one's chats being encrypted using Apple Messages if an Android user is part of the conversation, they could be if Apple adopted Google RCS for cross-platform messaging, and the same color warning could apply when they are not if for whatever reason some participant is using the old less-secure and less-private fallback SMS. Might you agree?
If Apple implements please give us a way to revert to SMS when the Android losers are in a group text. I don’t want my texts flowing through Google hands.
They're E2EE so Google won't have their hands on them. Do your research, more facts and less hand-wringing.
No, you are the one that need to do more research.
In order to for mobile carriers to offer E2EE with RCS messaging, they have to use Google version of RCS and they HAVE to be using Jibe Mobile services. And guess who bought out Jibe Mobile about 10 years ago? Google. So don't misinform people here that Google don't have their hands on E2EE with RCS.
E2EE is E2EE. Knowing someone sent a message does not reveal the contents, unless you're claiming Google lies about the E2EE and can somehow "get their hands on that message" which was the concern of the OP. Otherwise I'm 100% correct, and no more research required.
If Apple employs RCS as Google suggests as an additional messaging standard it will be just as secure as it is using Apple' proprietary Messages, and more secure than the fallback SMS that Apple now uses.
Don't try to mislead readers into thinking Google RCS is somehow less secure and private than Messages without evidence of it being a fact. Google can't get their hands on your messages any more than Apple can.
Well technically Apple does have more potential access to your actual messages than Google does with Google RCS messages on their platform doesn't it, if you include platform-specific cloud backups? That would be something interesting for you to look into. Your research is generally pretty good and I would love reading what you find, and I doubt I'm the only one.
Even if Apple wanted to read your texts, it doesn’t have a key to unscramble those messages. (There’s a caveat in the next section about backup copies.)
But the dreaded green bubbles are Apple’s warning. If you’re in a group chat with three people using Apple’s chat app and one person on an Android phone, no one’s texts are end-to-end encrypted.<
Why did you stop? You were doing so good. You mentioned a caveat without expanding on it. What is it, and does that same caveat apply to backups on current Google Android phones, or even those from the past four years or so?
As for no one's chats being encrypted using Apple Messages if an Android user is part of the conversation, they could be if Apple adopted Google RCS for cross-platform messaging, and the same color warning could apply when they are not if for whatever reason some participant is using the old less-secure and less-private fallback SMS. Might you agree?
I did not put that in. That was part of the article and I just copy and paste the part of the article that pertains to what we were discussing.
But in case you read the part in the link I provided and don't understand the "caveat" of an Apple backup into the cloud, I'm going to have to explain that to you too, so that you're not gloating over some advantage that you think Google have over Apple, concerting backups of E2EE messages.
Google automatically keeps E2EE messages encrypted with E2EE when they are backed up to the Google cloud. They have been doing this for a while. Apple on the other hand only just began to keep E2EE iMessages E2EE in iCloud, toward the end of last year. But the "caveat' with Apple is that it is an option and one has to choose that option. It is not done automatically as it is with backups of Google E2EE messages. So in the end, so long as Apple iMessage users choose to keep their E2EE messages E2EE in their iCloud backup, there is no real difference between E2EE messages backups with Google or Apple.
>Apple has unveiled plans to let users choose to encrypt their iCloud backups in a move that will thwart hackers – and also put limits on law enforcement requests for user data.
The new feature, known as Advanced Data Protection for iCloud, will allow users to encrypt data on Apple's servers and thus prevent Apple itself from accessing a user's content. The new content types that support end-to-end encryption (E2EE) include iCloud backups, Notes, and Photos. <
But this is a moot point with our discussion about E2EE no longer being E2EE in a group chat, when any one of the persons in the chat is not on the same server that is hosting the E2EE. Whether on Apple iMessage or Google RCS. Once the whole chat messages loses E2EE, it no longer matter that the backups of those messages are E2EE. Apple and Google could already see those messages once E2EE was lost.
BTW- It is not as easy as you think for Apple to maintain E2EE with Google RCS as you think. In order to maintain E2EE, the E2EE message has to remain on the same server. Once it has to travel between two different companies server, it will lose E2EE. This is why RCS only have E2EE if the carriers are hosting their RCS messaging on Jibe servers. If a mobile carrier uses their own server to host their RCS messaging, then E2EE is only possible with others customers with the same mobile carrier. It would not be possible of them to offer E2EE with other mobile carrier customers that are also using their own servers or hosting their RCS messaging on Jibe Mobile servers. If Google can't make RCS E2EE between two carriers using their own servers, then what makes you think Apple can easily make iMessage on Apple servers E2EE with Google RCS on Jibe Mobile servers. And no way is Apple going to host iMessage on Jibe Mobile server.
Comments
All the majors in the US adopted RCS as a standard two years ago, some earlier than that. Overseas RCS is included as a standard on numerous carriers, including most of the larger ones. If you doubt that, have a look for yourself. It's easy enough to find.
iMessage was never meant to be cross platform. The only reason why iMessage can message to Android with SMS is because ALL mobile phones are required to have an SMS client since ALL mobile carriers uses SMS as their messaging standard. Since iMessage is also the SMS client on iPhones, iPhone users can send and receive SMS using iMessage. But that is not a requirement. And iPhone users can install a number of different SMS clients, in order to send and receive SMS messages. But most will just let iMessage handle it.
With Android, only Google Messages (and Samsung Messages) can handle RCS messaging. And guess what Google Messages does when the receiver is not using Google Messages .... it defaults to SMS. Every mobile carrier supply their own SMS client for Android phones. Even mobile phones with prepaid minutes, can send and receive SMS without having to pay for data.
SMS is not a standard because it's cross platform. It's a standard because every mobile carrier uses it (even those that have converted to RCS) and every mobile user with a voice plan can use it without having to install any other software or pay for data. Every Android phone can send and receive RCS but only if they enable Google Messages. And since most Android users are already using some other superior messaging service, most users have absolutely no need to use Google Messages. (SMS can be handled by their mobile carrier SMS client.) Unless all their friends with iPhones (that are using iMessage), starts sending RCS messages (instead of SMS). And there lies why Google wants Apple to convert to RCS instead of SMS, (when using iMessage to message Android users). Funny how even though Google is claiming RCS is some sort of standard, they do not allow any other Android messaging service (except for Samsung) to handle RCS messaging on Android. And yet they're claiming iMessage is the one holding up RCS from becoming the cross platform standard.
In order to for mobile carriers to offer E2EE with RCS messaging, they have to use Google version of RCS and they HAVE to be using Jibe Mobile services. And guess who bought out Jibe Mobile about 10 years ago? Google. So don't misinform people here that Google don't have their hands on E2EE with RCS. Google will still know who is messaging to who. If Google knows everything about one of those "who", they can figure out what ads to target to the other "who", even if they don't know the contents of the E2EE message. Don't short change Google, they are the best at what they do when it comes to data mining.
And don't forget, RCS messages default to SMS if the receiver is not using Google Messages. No E2EE possible there.
https://jibe.google.com/jibe-platform/
https://techcrunch.com/2015/09/30/google-acquires-jibe-mobile-to-help-adopt-new-standard-for-carrier-messaging/
If Apple employs RCS as Google suggests as an additional messaging standard it will be just as secure as it is using Apple' proprietary Messages, and more secure than the fallback SMS that Apple now uses.
Don't try to mislead readers into thinking Google RCS is somehow less secure and private than Messages without evidence of it being a fact. Google can't get their hands on your messages any more than Apple can.
Well technically Apple does have more potential access to your actual messages than Google does with Google RCS messages on their platform doesn't it, if you include platform-specific cloud backups? That would be something interesting for you to look into. Your research is generally pretty good and I would love reading what you find, and I doubt I'm the only one.
https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/
This campaign serves a different purpose: Making an Apple service seem less attractive, stodgy, dusty and old, living in the past per-se. From that angle Google's marketing gets a bit more traction. Oh, and a perfect parody of an Apple ad.
Y'all are late to the party. Sad.
E2EE can only happen when the sender(s) and receiver(s) are on the same server. With iMessage, E2EE is possible because the sender(s) and receiver(s) are using Apple servers. in a group chat, if any person in the chat is on Android (and using SMS), the whole chat loses E2EE. The green bubble on the iPhone informs the iMessage users that the chat is no longer E2EE for anyone in the chat.
The same is true for Google RCS chat. RCS is only E2EE if all the people in the chat are on the Jibe Mobile servers (which is now own by Google). So in a group RCS chat, if any person in the chat is not on the Jibe Mobile servers, the whole group messaging loses E2EE and the all the messaging are now in Google hands.
This was what the OP that you were responding to was referring to. Just like how if an Android user enter into a chat originated with iMessage, all the messaging loses E2EE and are in Apple hands because they are on Apple servers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/08/22/encryption-imessage-whatsapp-google/
>The biggest encryption caveat is for the built-in texting apps on iPhones and most Android phones in the United States. Those are Apple’s Messages app, also known as iMessage, and the Messages by Google app.
If you use Apple’s app, texts that you send and receive are only end-to-end encrypted if everyone else in the chat is using that app.
If the text you see is in blue, the contents of messages are end-to-end encrypted for everyone in the chat.
Even if Apple wanted to read your texts, it doesn’t have a key to unscramble those messages. (There’s a caveat in the next section about backup copies.)
But the dreaded green bubbles are Apple’s warning. If you’re in a group chat with three people using Apple’s chat app and one person on an Android phone, no one’s texts are end-to-end encrypted.<
You mentioned a caveat without expanding on it. What is it, and does that same caveat apply to backups on current Google Android phones, or even those from the past four years or so?
As for no one's chats being encrypted using Apple Messages if an Android user is part of the conversation, they could be if Apple adopted Google RCS for cross-platform messaging, and the same color warning could apply when they are not if for whatever reason some participant is using the old less-secure and less-private fallback SMS. Might you agree?
But in case you read the part in the link I provided and don't understand the "caveat" of an Apple backup into the cloud, I'm going to have to explain that to you too, so that you're not gloating over some advantage that you think Google have over Apple, concerting backups of E2EE messages.
Google automatically keeps E2EE messages encrypted with E2EE when they are backed up to the Google cloud. They have been doing this for a while. Apple on the other hand only just began to keep E2EE iMessages E2EE in iCloud, toward the end of last year. But the "caveat' with Apple is that it is an option and one has to choose that option. It is not done automatically as it is with backups of Google E2EE messages. So in the end, so long as Apple iMessage users choose to keep their E2EE messages E2EE in their iCloud backup, there is no real difference between E2EE messages backups with Google or Apple.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-is-bringing-end-to-end-encryption-to-icloud-backups-heres-what-it-means/
>Apple has unveiled plans to let users choose to encrypt their iCloud backups in a move that will thwart hackers – and also put limits on law enforcement requests for user data.
The new feature, known as Advanced Data Protection for iCloud, will allow users to encrypt data on Apple's servers and thus prevent Apple itself from accessing a user's content. The new content types that support end-to-end encryption (E2EE) include iCloud backups, Notes, and Photos. <
But this is a moot point with our discussion about E2EE no longer being E2EE in a group chat, when any one of the persons in the chat is not on the same server that is hosting the E2EE. Whether on Apple iMessage or Google RCS. Once the whole chat messages loses E2EE, it no longer matter that the backups of those messages are E2EE. Apple and Google could already see those messages once E2EE was lost.
BTW- It is not as easy as you think for Apple to maintain E2EE with Google RCS as you think. In order to maintain E2EE, the E2EE message has to remain on the same server. Once it has to travel between two different companies server, it will lose E2EE. This is why RCS only have E2EE if the carriers are hosting their RCS messaging on Jibe servers. If a mobile carrier uses their own server to host their RCS messaging, then E2EE is only possible with others customers with the same mobile carrier. It would not be possible of them to offer E2EE with other mobile carrier customers that are also using their own servers or hosting their RCS messaging on Jibe Mobile servers. If Google can't make RCS E2EE between two carriers using their own servers, then what makes you think Apple can easily make iMessage on Apple servers E2EE with Google RCS on Jibe Mobile servers. And no way is Apple going to host iMessage on Jibe Mobile server.
This is the best kind of discussion thread, instead of yelling at and mocking each other, learn from each other.