Apple accused of avoiding paying UK $700 million in taxes

Posted:
in General Discussion

A new report from a tax watchdog claims that between Apple and other major IT firms, the UK may have lost almost $3 billion in tax revenue in 2021 alone.

Apple's new UK headquarters is in London's iconic Battersea Power Station
Apple's new UK headquarters is in London's iconic Battersea Power Station



Apple has long been in an ongoing dispute with the European Union over its tax arrangements in Ireland, but now a new study says it has benefited from UK tax laws too. A UK charity called TaxWatch effectively argues that the laws of Britain and other countries do not correctly account for multinational earnings.

"Current international tax rules generally work on the basis that profits are allocated based on where value is created," its report says, "which is not necessarily the same as the location of customers."

"Global businesses can organise the structure and activities of each of their subsidiaries to move sales, costs and thereby profits and losses between different jurisdictions," it continues. "This enables them to leverage differences in tax rates and laws between the countries within which their subsidiaries operate."

Calling this type of tax avoidance "profit shifting," TaxWatch says it is "recognised as a major problem in the OECD [ Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development]."

TaxWatch then attempts to demonstrate the scale of the issue by working through the most recently available finance figures from seven large technology firms:


  • Adobe

  • Amazon

  • Apple

  • Alphabet (Google)

  • Cisco

  • Meta (Facebook)

  • Microsoft



TaxWatch is hampered by how companies, including Apple, do not necessarily report their UK revenues. It therefore stresses that its figures and conclusions are illustrative rather than precise.

"At no point do we suggest that the figures presented here are accurate and an exact answer to how much profit these companies make in the United Kingdom," it says. "That would be impossible to determine without access to detailed figures from inside these companies, which we do not have."

Firms were approached and those that replied "said that they paid the correct tax in all jurisdictions."

Amazon reportedly said the charity's "conclusions were inaccurate and based on incorrect assumptions."

TaxWatch does, however, lay out its methodology in detail, and in the case of Apple says that it has referred to figures from the UK's Competition and Markets Authority (CMA). The CMA estimated Apple's 2021 turnover as between $12 billion and $18 billion, so it has based its calculations on a midpoint between those figures.

Based on this, TaxWatch estimates that Apple should have paid $863 million to the UK taxes for 2021. Instead, it reportedly paid around $163 million.

Overall, the charity claims that the seven Big Tech firms in total avoided paying almost $3 billion to the UK for 2021.

TaxWatch says that Apple did not respond to requests for comment.

Separately, figures for 2020 showed that Apple paid the UK some $8 million that year -- when it made $1.8 billion in sales. At the time, Apple said that "We are very proud of our many contributions across the UK and last year spent over 2 billion pounds [$2.51 billion] with hundreds of suppliers."

Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 20
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it. As an accountant myself, the standard has always been clear: help your client pay the minimum taxes possible without doing anything illegal. That doesn't stop being important for bigger companies. None of us go into business or get a job thinking "oh boy, I can't wait to donate as much of the money I make as possible to the government, who will do much more important things with it than I would!"
    maltzmike1watto_cobraFlappoBart Y
  • Reply 2 of 20
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    Had this been in the US it would have been very similar to Microsoft's multi-$Billion US tax problem stemming from transfer pricing activities. For such transactions to be legal they have to be set up as tho they were negotiated at arms'length, what the exchange transaction would be in a free market.

    Instead, all the named companies likely do the same thing, setting variable IP licensing rates applied in different markets for no purpose other than removing profit from a sale occurring in a higher tax location and moving it to a low-tax one, which in the US is NOT legal tho apparently difficult to catch.

    Bringing this closer to home, a LOT of small US companies would love to claim the same kind of tax benefits, the value from a sale transferred to a low or no-tax locale instead of the state where the product/service sale occurred. We small fry can't do that. Rich get richer and all that, 'ya know?
    edited October 2023 danoxdewme
  • Reply 3 of 20
    HonkersHonkers Posts: 156member
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it.
    Really?  You cannot understand the belief that a tax system should be fair and equitable, and that broad rules should apply equally to all, and independent monitoring of the situation is required to assess outcomes, campaign for positive change, and provide extra layers of compliance auditing?

    Weird.
    edited October 2023 danoxxyzzy01
  • Reply 4 of 20
    mike1mike1 Posts: 3,286member
    Honkers said:
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it.
    Really?  You cannot understand the belief that a tax system should be fair and equitable, and that broad rules should apply equally to all, and independent monitoring of the situation is required to assess outcomes, campaign for positive change, and provide extra layers of compliance auditing?

    Weird.

    No. Then these idiots should work to change the tax codes. Sorry. As a shareholder, I do not want any company paying a penny more in taxes than legally required.
    timpetusaderutterwatto_cobraBart Y
  • Reply 5 of 20
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    mike1 said:
    Honkers said:
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it.
    Really?  You cannot understand the belief that a tax system should be fair and equitable, and that broad rules should apply equally to all, and independent monitoring of the situation is required to assess outcomes, campaign for positive change, and provide extra layers of compliance auditing?

    Weird.

    No. Then these idiots should work to change the tax codes. Sorry. As a shareholder, I do not want any company paying a penny more in taxes than legally required.
    Paying a bit more in taxes would not directly affect your shares IMO. The value of any individual share is somewhat arbitrary, tied more to the perception of what it is worth to an investor (gambler?) rather than anything tangible. 
    edited October 2023 muthuk_vanalingamdewme
  • Reply 6 of 20
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,874member
    Honkers said:
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it.
    Really?  You cannot understand the belief that a tax system should be fair and equitable, and that broad rules should apply equally to all, and independent monitoring of the situation is required to assess outcomes, campaign for positive change, and provide extra layers of compliance auditing?

    Weird.
    There is a whole Legion of people who believe that one day they will be part of the upper upper upper level, and they usually take on the belief system (financially/politically) of that upper level against their best interest (unions/voting/health/infrastructure), and do the bidding of the elite, wherever they can (private equity companies are currently stealing the USA, blind), if the tax system is fair and equitable between everyone, Apple, Google or the equity companies will still win and win big.

    If Europe, the UK/EU or the USA want real competition among the so-called Tech Giants (gatekeepers) separate them out of each other’s backyard, and cleanup the Frand patent fiasco, won’t happen because tough, fair and equitable is by and large a myth. :smile: 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 20

    I'm 100% for corporations paying the maximum tax possible, but in this case...Stiff Tory Brexlandia, Tim. Stiff 'em.

    edited October 2023 Bart Y
  • Reply 8 of 20
    y2any2an Posts: 189member
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it. As an accountant myself, the standard has always been clear: help your client pay the minimum taxes possible without doing anything illegal. That doesn't stop being important for bigger companies. None of us go into business or get a job thinking "oh boy, I can't wait to donate as much of the money I make as possible to the government, who will do much more important things with it than I would!"
    Calculating tax a few different ways to see which is lowest is reasonable, that’s your job. Deliberate bogus structuring of entities for the purpose of making invented charges to reduce taxes in a locale is evasion and you and the auditors ought to call out the risks involved in these structures, but you don’t; you think it’s normal. Why don’t the auditors call this out? Because their consulting arms set up many of these arrangements, they are complicit in the crime. 

    I will grant that no countries are strong enough to tighten their laws irrespective of international accounting standards. I guess they are all frightened of the reaction. Like the Mob. 
  • Reply 9 of 20
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 2,011member
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it. As an accountant myself, the standard has always been clear: help your client pay the minimum taxes possible without doing anything illegal. That doesn't stop being important for bigger companies. None of us go into business or get a job thinking "oh boy, I can't wait to donate as much of the money I make as possible to the government, who will do much more important things with it than I would!"
    Here's the thing. Corporations and rich people collect much of their government welfare money through the tax code, while anything the middle class of poor people get is on the other side of the ledger, through government programs. As a consequence, it's perceived as honorable to seek every avenue to benefit from government largesse on the left side of the ledger by seeking to "pay the minimum taxes possible without doing anything illegal." Meanwhile, we're conditioned to give the side-eye to anyone who gets a little help on the right side of the ledger to feed or house their family through government programs.

    As noted recently on the Microsoft tax avoidance thread, only the wealthy and big corporations can afford to pay lobbyists and "donate" to politicians' "
    campaigns" to get millions or billions in favorable tax breaks, and then pay tax lawyers to file the paperwork to get the money. It's expensive to do all that, but the net gain is worth it. The middle-class is also conditioned to lament the byzantine tax code as government horribleness, and resent poor people who collect a pittance from government programs to help them try not to starve to death. This is all to get people in the middle class to function (against their own actual interests) as a political coalition with the very wealthy. That's how the "two-percent" finds enough voters to elect the "conservative" politicians who insert the lobbyists' carefully crafted billion-dollar tax-avoidance measures into the law (making it into the byzantine mess that gets attributed to government awfulness), and then make a lot of noise about the need to cut programs in order to balance budgets. 



    gatorguydewmemuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 10 of 20
    chasmchasm Posts: 3,306member
    Careful readers of the article may notice that at no point whatsoever in this story does Taxwatch (or anyone) suggest that Apple or any of these other companies have misled the UK government, or broken the law. These companies are paying the tax the respective governments say they owe.

    Taxwatch’s report is not really an attack on Apple specifically (or even Big Tech specifically), despite the angle of their press releases. It’s actually an attack on the current UK government for having these LEGAL loopholes that big corporations can take advantage of.

    Taxwatch wants the Tories to close the loopholes. Good luck with that!
    dewmeaderutterwilliamhFlappoBart Y
  • Reply 11 of 20
    mike1 said:
    Honkers said:
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it.
    Really?  You cannot understand the belief that a tax system should be fair and equitable, and that broad rules should apply equally to all, and independent monitoring of the situation is required to assess outcomes, campaign for positive change, and provide extra layers of compliance auditing?

    Weird.
    No. Then these idiots should work to change the tax codes. Sorry. As a shareholder, I do not want any company paying a penny more in taxes than legally required.
    That's exactly what these 'idiots' are doing.  Highlighting issues in the tax code that allow profit shifting and demonstrating the scale and severity of the problem. 
  • Reply 12 of 20
    mpantonempantone Posts: 2,040member
    Governments can change laws to close tax loopholes but they can't retroactively apply them. If an entity (individual or organization) paid taxes in accordance with the tax regulations in effect at the time of filing, then they broke no laws.

    It's very important to note that Taxwatch is not a government agency. They did the analysis for illustrative purposes. As an Amazon spokesperson responded, the Taxwatch numbers are based on a lot of assumptions.

    Note that enacting more laws might not be the right solution. Most tax codes end up overly complicated as the years pass by so a reform of some of the UK corporate tax law might be more beneficial than tacking on another 200 pages of legalese.

    That's something UK tax officials need to think about, not just from this report but on an ongoing basis with all corporate tax activities.
  • Reply 13 of 20
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,016member
    gatorguy said:
    mike1 said:
    Honkers said:
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it.
    Really?  You cannot understand the belief that a tax system should be fair and equitable, and that broad rules should apply equally to all, and independent monitoring of the situation is required to assess outcomes, campaign for positive change, and provide extra layers of compliance auditing?

    Weird.

    No. Then these idiots should work to change the tax codes. Sorry. As a shareholder, I do not want any company paying a penny more in taxes than legally required.
    Paying a bit more in taxes would not directly affect your shares IMO. The value of any individual share is somewhat arbitrary, tied more to the perception of what it is worth to an investor (gambler?) rather than anything tangible. 
    Lol.  You still think corporations “pay” taxes.  
    darkvaderwilliamhFlappo
  • Reply 14 of 20
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    sdw2001 said:
    gatorguy said:
    mike1 said:
    Honkers said:
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it.
    Really?  You cannot understand the belief that a tax system should be fair and equitable, and that broad rules should apply equally to all, and independent monitoring of the situation is required to assess outcomes, campaign for positive change, and provide extra layers of compliance auditing?

    Weird.

    No. Then these idiots should work to change the tax codes. Sorry. As a shareholder, I do not want any company paying a penny more in taxes than legally required.
    Paying a bit more in taxes would not directly affect your shares IMO. The value of any individual share is somewhat arbitrary, tied more to the perception of what it is worth to an investor (gambler?) rather than anything tangible. 
    Lol.  You still think corporations “pay” taxes.  
    LOL. You still think a corporation isn't treated like a "person" under US law, and like a "person" pays taxes...
    and can be sued if they break the law. 
    edited October 2023 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 15 of 20
    darkvaderdarkvader Posts: 1,146member
    Apple cheating on taxes?  What is today, a day ending in "y"?

    Bring me my fainting couch.
  • Reply 16 of 20
    mknelsonmknelson Posts: 1,127member
    I see Battersea Power Station and I don't think "Apple", all I get is Sheep, Pigs, and Dogs. And that c*** Mary Whitehouse.
    FlappoAppleZulu
  • Reply 17 of 20
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,016member
    gatorguy said:
    sdw2001 said:
    gatorguy said:
    mike1 said:
    Honkers said:
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it.
    Really?  You cannot understand the belief that a tax system should be fair and equitable, and that broad rules should apply equally to all, and independent monitoring of the situation is required to assess outcomes, campaign for positive change, and provide extra layers of compliance auditing?

    Weird.

    No. Then these idiots should work to change the tax codes. Sorry. As a shareholder, I do not want any company paying a penny more in taxes than legally required.
    Paying a bit more in taxes would not directly affect your shares IMO. The value of any individual share is somewhat arbitrary, tied more to the perception of what it is worth to an investor (gambler?) rather than anything tangible. 
    Lol.  You still think corporations “pay” taxes.  
    LOL. You still think a corporation isn't treated like a "person" under US law, and like a "person" pays taxes...
    and can be sued if they break the law. 
    My point is they pass on the cost.  They aren’t just going to sit back and pay it.  
  • Reply 18 of 20
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,213member
    sdw2001 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sdw2001 said:
    gatorguy said:
    mike1 said:
    Honkers said:
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it.
    Really?  You cannot understand the belief that a tax system should be fair and equitable, and that broad rules should apply equally to all, and independent monitoring of the situation is required to assess outcomes, campaign for positive change, and provide extra layers of compliance auditing?

    Weird.

    No. Then these idiots should work to change the tax codes. Sorry. As a shareholder, I do not want any company paying a penny more in taxes than legally required.
    Paying a bit more in taxes would not directly affect your shares IMO. The value of any individual share is somewhat arbitrary, tied more to the perception of what it is worth to an investor (gambler?) rather than anything tangible. 
    Lol.  You still think corporations “pay” taxes.  
    LOL. You still think a corporation isn't treated like a "person" under US law, and like a "person" pays taxes...
    and can be sued if they break the law. 
    My point is they pass on the cost.  They aren’t just going to sit back and pay it.  
    They can't "pass on the cost", at least directly, since they don't know how much tax they will owe until after the sales have happened and the taxable profit computed. Even then, it assumes Apple has factually paid the taxes, transferring money from Apple to the IRS rather than deferring them to a future date that may never come. 

    You will likely say now that, in some part, the corporate taxes are passed on to the shareholders. In theory that might be true, but in actual practice, the value of your Apple shares is a somewhat arbitrary number, the value and stock price set according to the whims of the sellers and buyers. The amount of money paid out for Corporate taxes plays little to no role in that. 
    edited October 2023 muthuk_vanalingamFlappo
  • Reply 19 of 20
    HonkersHonkers Posts: 156member
    sdw2001 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sdw2001 said:
    gatorguy said:
    mike1 said:
    Honkers said:
    timpetus said:
    I cannot understand the mentality of TaxWatch and organizations like it.
    Really?  You cannot understand the belief that a tax system should be fair and equitable, and that broad rules should apply equally to all, and independent monitoring of the situation is required to assess outcomes, campaign for positive change, and provide extra layers of compliance auditing?

    Weird.

    No. Then these idiots should work to change the tax codes. Sorry. As a shareholder, I do not want any company paying a penny more in taxes than legally required.
    Paying a bit more in taxes would not directly affect your shares IMO. The value of any individual share is somewhat arbitrary, tied more to the perception of what it is worth to an investor (gambler?) rather than anything tangible. 
    Lol.  You still think corporations “pay” taxes.  
    LOL. You still think a corporation isn't treated like a "person" under US law, and like a "person" pays taxes...
    and can be sued if they break the law. 
    My point is they pass on the cost.  They aren’t just going to sit back and pay it.  
    Everyone knows what your point was.  It's reductive and dumb and there's no need to have any kind of conversation about it.
  • Reply 20 of 20
    FlappoFlappo Posts: 22unconfirmed, member
    When they get the tax they do such great stuff like nuclear submarines that sink or $100m jet planes they crash into mountains on training exercises

    You can't blame sensible business people wanting to avoid paying unnecessary tax can you ??
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