Apple offers publishers millions to train AI on archives

Posted:
in iOS edited December 2023

Apple wants to license with content from news publishers to train generative AI systems, in multi-year deals to access content potentially valued to cost Apple tens of millions of dollars.

Siri, Apple's main public-facing machine learning feature
Siri, Apple's main public-facing machine learning feature



Apple is working on its own generative AI projects to maintain its position in the overall AI marketplace. To improve its work, those systems need content to learn from, something which Apple is allegedly trying to acquire.

According to sources of The New York Times on Friday, Apple has been in talks with a number of publishers, to secure access to their news archives. These allegedly include discussions of "multiyear deals worth at least $50 million" with major names in the publishing industry.

The list is said to include Conde Nast, the publisher of Vogue and The New Yorker among others. IAC, the organization behind People, Better Homes, and The Daily Beast, has also talked to Apple, as has NBC News.

While the talks could be lucrative for the publishers, the response has supposedly been mixed. Some executives were happy with the idea, especially since Apple asked for permission and offered to pay for access instead of scraping content.

In some instances, publishers were worried about potential legal issues that could arise from having their archives fed into a generative AI system. There is also trepidation over the possibility Apple's access could lead to the iPhone maker competing against the publishers in the future, and that Apple was "vague" about its future plans for the content beyond AI training.

Apple's attempts to keep up with the rest of the AI field has seen some surprising success. It has already implemented a lot of machine learning elements in iOS and other platforms, and on December 19, it published a paper on rapidly creating 3D avatars of humans from brief video clips.



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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 65
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    ursues_1williamlondonwatto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 2 of 65
    XedXed Posts: 2,626member
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?
    StrangeDaysdanoxwilliamlondonForumPostwatto_cobratmaybyronljony0
  • Reply 3 of 65
    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?
    Both of them don't have a big difference in revenue generated, I don't think money is a problem to either of them.

    Isn't Apple more akin to Samsung which sells hardware, and makes software to go along with that? Whereas, Google focuses on software and also has divisions such as Google Deepmind which is the leader of AI research, also possessing the world's fastest quantum computer.
    ursues_1williamlondonwatto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 4 of 65
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,770member
    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?
    I think he means that, as a company, Apple stills derives a huge amount of revenues from hardware. That is true.

    While services may be growing, the iPhone and hardware is, and will remain, the cash cow for the foreseeable future.

    Conversely, Google is financially dependant on software services products, and not so much, hardware. 

    Those services are not limited to the CE realm as they reach into science and industry too. 

    Apple's scope hasn't reached those areas. 
    Mr_mime3000ctt_zhmuthuk_vanalingambyronl
  • Reply 5 of 65
    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?

    As of September 2023 Google has $119.93 B of cash on hand and Apple has $61.55 B.

    ursues_1williamlondonnubusctt_zhbyronl
  • Reply 6 of 65
    avon b7 said:
    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?
    I think he means that, as a company, Apple stills derives a huge amount of revenues from hardware. That is true.

    While services may be growing, the iPhone and hardware is, and will remain, the cash cow for the foreseeable future.

    Conversely, Google is financially dependant on software services products, and not so much, hardware. 

    Those services are not limited to the CE realm as they reach into science and industry too. 

    Apple's scope hasn't reached those areas. 
    What a non sequitur. Making lots of money from hardware has no bearing on whether a shop also produces software. 

    That’s like me saying Google isn’t a true software company because their business is advertising. 
    XedwilliamlondonForumPostwatto_cobratmaybyronljony0
  • Reply 7 of 65

    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?

    As of September 2023 Google has $119.93 B of cash on hand and Apple has $61.55 B.

    lol citation needed. 3 years ago Apple had almost $2B cash on hand:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/30/apple-q2-2020-cash-hoard-heres-how-much-apple-has-on-hand.html
    williamlondonbyronljony0
  • Reply 8 of 65
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,770member
    "Apple's attempts to keep up with the rest of the AI field has seen some surprising success. It has already implemented a lot of machine learning elements in iOS and other platforms, and on December 19, it published a paper on rapidly creating 3D avatars of humans from brief video clips."

    Creating 3D avatars probably isn't significant in terms of 'keeping up' and its ML efforts have consistently seemed to get marketing attention after industry has already moved ahead from them. 

    It was only really this year that ML got any major attention (WWDC2023) . It's been around on its phones since 2017 but until this year not much was really pushed and that's because up to recently perhaps it just wasn't being used as much as it was on competing phones. 

    ctt_zh
  • Reply 9 of 65
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,770member
    avon b7 said:
    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?
    I think he means that, as a company, Apple stills derives a huge amount of revenues from hardware. That is true.

    While services may be growing, the iPhone and hardware is, and will remain, the cash cow for the foreseeable future.

    Conversely, Google is financially dependant on software services products, and not so much, hardware. 

    Those services are not limited to the CE realm as they reach into science and industry too. 

    Apple's scope hasn't reached those areas. 
    What a non sequitur. Making lots of money from hardware has no bearing on whether a shop also produces software. 

    That’s like me saying Google isn’t a true software company because their business is advertising. 
    Producing hardware and software per se wasn't at issue.

    It was the balance between the two in terms of revenue. 
    edited December 2023 ctt_zhmuthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 10 of 65
    Apple is here trying to pay, google and Microsoft just used it without asking hahahahahaha
    watto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 11 of 65
    XedXed Posts: 2,626member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?
    I think he means that, as a company, Apple stills derives a huge amount of revenues from hardware. That is true.

    While services may be growing, the iPhone and hardware is, and will remain, the cash cow for the foreseeable future.

    Conversely, Google is financially dependant on software services products, and not so much, hardware. 

    Those services are not limited to the CE realm as they reach into science and industry too. 

    Apple's scope hasn't reached those areas. 
    What a non sequitur. Making lots of money from hardware has no bearing on whether a shop also produces software. 

    That’s like me saying Google isn’t a true software company because their business is advertising. 
    Producing hardware and software per se wasn't at issue.

    It was the balance between the two in terms of revenue. 
    No it wasn't. His comment stated that Google was a "true" software company which implies that Apple doesn't "truly" create any software which is fucking stupid to say and for anyone to defend. Even your "revenue" comment is silly because Apple doesn't sell their SW without the HW and their HW without the revenue. They are a paired product so you can't exclude the SW and claim Apple hasn't a leg to stand on simply because you see no SW when the display is off.

    Also, StrangeDays is on point by calling Google just an ad placement company if we go by your facile definition. Personally, I see Apple as being a very deep in SW and HW development, just as I see this with Google, MS, FB, and many others.
    edited December 2023 williamlondonwatto_cobratmaybyronljony0
  • Reply 12 of 65
    Xed said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?
    I think he means that, as a company, Apple stills derives a huge amount of revenues from hardware. That is true.

    While services may be growing, the iPhone and hardware is, and will remain, the cash cow for the foreseeable future.

    Conversely, Google is financially dependant on software services products, and not so much, hardware. 

    Those services are not limited to the CE realm as they reach into science and industry too. 

    Apple's scope hasn't reached those areas. 
    What a non sequitur. Making lots of money from hardware has no bearing on whether a shop also produces software. 

    That’s like me saying Google isn’t a true software company because their business is advertising. 
    Producing hardware and software per se wasn't at issue.

    It was the balance between the two in terms of revenue. 
    No it wasn't. His comment stated that Google was a "true" software company which implies that Apple doesn't "truly" create any software which is fucking stupid to say and for anyone to defend. Even your "revenue" comment is silly because Apple doesn't sell their SW without the HW and their HW without the revenue. They are a paired product so you can't exclude the SW and claim Apple hasn't a leg to stand on simply because you see no SW when the display is off.

    Also, StrangeDays is on point by calling Google just an ad placement company if we go by your facile definition. Personally, I see Apple as being a very deep in SW and HW development, just as I see this with Google, MS, FB, and many others.
    You are thinking too much into it, to the everyday Joe, Apple is a hardware company whereas companies such as Google are thought of as software companies, thanks in part due to the media.
    williamlondonctt_zhbyronl
  • Reply 13 of 65
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,770member
    StrangeDays wasn't on point.

    He missed the point entirely and your point boils down to your definition of 'true' which completely ignores what the OP might have meant and, IMO at least, seems very clear. 

    Apple's bread and butter remains hardware. 

    Google's bread and butter remains software. 

    Even though both of them produce hardware and software. 


    ctt_zhmuthuk_vanalingambyronl
  • Reply 14 of 65
    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?
    Both of them don't have a big difference in revenue generated, I don't think money is a problem to either of them.

    Isn't Apple more akin to Samsung which sells hardware, and makes software to go along with that? Whereas, Google focuses on software and also has divisions such as Google Deepmind which is the leader of AI research, also possessing the world's fastest quantum computer.
    It's the other way around.  Apple is a software company that happens to wrap it in beautiful hardware.  I will take the words of its late founder over anybody else's

    Steve Jobs - Apple Is Software - YouTube
    danoxwatto_cobrabyronljony0
  • Reply 15 of 65
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,988member
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    So in short Apple should steal it? Apple can't win either way they go? By the way the quality of the data is more important than the quantity of data. Building anything in AI is going to require brains, focus, iteration and discipline.

    Apple is far beyond Google/Microsoft in software/hardware design when it comes to creating new frontiers and that will be put on display again next in 2024.
    edited December 2023 williamlondonwatto_cobratmaybyronljony0
  • Reply 16 of 65
    danox said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    So in short Apple should steal it? Apple can't win either way they go? By the way the quality of the data is more important than the quantity of data. Building anything in AI is going to require brains, focus, iteration and discipline.
    What good is artificially handicapping yourself, when at this point we can't even say if it's legal or not. Apple is only hurting itself.

    Google has decades worth of data and their deepmind division is the leader in AI research. The only reason they were behind OpenAI is because they were caught by surprise and are quickly catching up.
    williamlondonctt_zhbyronl
  • Reply 17 of 65
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Nothing is stopping Apple from scraping the web, like the others do. They probably have been doing that already for years with their search engine. This deal would expose fresh content that is usually behind paywalls, and Apple would potentially get that first. Also, if Apple makes a deal with the publishers, those publishers might want to see money from competitors like Google and OpenAI to let them keep access.
    edited December 2023 watto_cobratmaybyronljony0
  • Reply 18 of 65
    michelb76 said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Nothing is stopping Apple from scraping the web, like the others do. They probably have been doing that already for years with their search engine. This deal would expose fresh content that is usually behind paywalls, and Apple would potentially get that first. Also, if Apple makes a deal with the publishers, those publishers might want to see money from competitors like Google and OpenAI to let them keep access.
    Scraping data isn't enough as LLMs have to be trained with it for efficiency ana and accuracy, AI is something where Apple has historically lagged behind, they aren't doing themselves favours by going this route.

    Also, if content creators start charging money then only Apple, Google and Microsoft will be able to pay which will automatically kill all other competition.I don't really want that to happen.
    edited December 2023 williamlondonctt_zhbyronl
  • Reply 19 of 65
    XedXed Posts: 2,626member
    ursues_1 said:
    Xed said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?
    I think he means that, as a company, Apple stills derives a huge amount of revenues from hardware. That is true.

    While services may be growing, the iPhone and hardware is, and will remain, the cash cow for the foreseeable future.

    Conversely, Google is financially dependant on software services products, and not so much, hardware. 

    Those services are not limited to the CE realm as they reach into science and industry too. 

    Apple's scope hasn't reached those areas. 
    What a non sequitur. Making lots of money from hardware has no bearing on whether a shop also produces software. 

    That’s like me saying Google isn’t a true software company because their business is advertising. 
    Producing hardware and software per se wasn't at issue.

    It was the balance between the two in terms of revenue. 
    No it wasn't. His comment stated that Google was a "true" software company which implies that Apple doesn't "truly" create any software which is fucking stupid to say and for anyone to defend. Even your "revenue" comment is silly because Apple doesn't sell their SW without the HW and their HW without the revenue. They are a paired product so you can't exclude the SW and claim Apple hasn't a leg to stand on simply because you see no SW when the display is off.

    Also, StrangeDays is on point by calling Google just an ad placement company if we go by your facile definition. Personally, I see Apple as being a very deep in SW and HW development, just as I see this with Google, MS, FB, and many others.
    You are thinking too much into it, to the everyday Joe, Apple is a hardware company whereas companies such as Google are thought of as software companies, thanks in part due to the media.
    I think the "Average Joe" knows that Apple makes SW. I bet if I talked to 10 iPhone or iPad owners nearly all would know what iOS is, iTunes, and many other Apple apps by name. If one doesn't know this or consider this — especially on a tech forum — then one may want to consider themselves a "Below Average Joe."
    williamlondonwatto_cobrabyronl
  • Reply 20 of 65
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,988member
    Xed said:
    jacob_rad said:
    Though I praise the ethical stand point that Apple has taken, doing so will ensure their loss. The data that these companies will provide will be infinitely smaller than the huge mountains of data that companies such as OpenAI and Google have.

    Also, having to rely on third parties will only slow them down. There are claims that regulations will be passed which may hinder companies such as Google which is scraping the internet for data, I assure you nothing like that will happen in the states. Currently, the world is in a race and no country can afford to be behind, no government (barring EU, duh) is foolish enough to hinder this fledgling field.

    Also, Apple is a hardware company unlike Google which is a true software company, they have more areas to integrate and monetise AI.
    Google has more money than Apple?

    Apple isn't a "true" software company is what respect? Because they also design HW?
    Both of them don't have a big difference in revenue generated, I don't think money is a problem to either of them.

    Isn't Apple more akin to Samsung which sells hardware, and makes software to go along with that? Whereas, Google focuses on software and also has divisions such as Google Deepmind which is the leader of AI research, also possessing the world's fastest quantum computer.
    Apple executes on a far different level than Google, Apple in the last 25 years has been far more effective building profitable new ecosystems, however the huge loads of money spent by the Googles (me too) follies is far beyond Apple. Most of it was spent on bribes, kickbacks and short-term tech flops. 
    edited December 2023 watto_cobrabyronl
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