Phil Schiller warns third-party app stores are a risk to iPhone users

Posted:
in iOS

The introduction of third-party app marketplaces for the iPhone in EU countries could be a massive privacy and security problem for users, Apple Fellow Phil Schiller warns, despite Apple's attempts to shore up security before regulatory rules fully kick in.

Apple Fellow Phil Schiller
Apple Fellow Phil Schiller



The EU Digital Markets Act is forcing Apple to open the iPhone up to third-party digital storefronts in EU member states, with the enabling of sideloading and alternative stores alongside Apple's own App Store starting from March 2024 in the iOS 17.4 update.

To prepare for the introduction of the third-party storefronts, Apple has already outlined various ways charges will change, as well as security mechanisms to try and keep users safe. However, Apple warns that cannot protect against every eventuality.

App Store chief and Apple fellow Phil Schiller explained to Fast Company "These new regulations, while they bring new options for developers, also bring new risks. There's no getting around that. So we're doing everything we can to minimize those risks."

The introduction of a third-party storefront means there's a new way for apps with malicious code to be installed onto an iPhone, which could cause many issues to end users. Apple's "walled garden" approach and App Store Review process weed out these apps, with almost 1.7 million submissions rejected in 2022 because of failures to meet privacy, security, and content standards.

Due to the possibility of third-party stores not having as stringent a review process as Apple, the iPhone maker has introduced various elements to improve security, such as notarizing all apps before they can be installed on an iPhone, regardless of the app store.

"We've put together over 600 new APIs for developers to give them the tools to build a marketplace, install an app, let the user have control of that process," said Schiller. "We've done a lot of core engineering, and we're going to continue to."

Users will also see an information sheet showing basic details about the app before installing it, and added more control over marketplace selection too.

App security, but no content monitoring



Even so, Schiller adds that there are limits to Apple's protective measures, with it having no real control over the content of apps from the alternative storefronts, since notarization doesn't check the actual content, only whether the app is secure and not malicious.

"Ultimately, there are things that we have not allowed on our App Store-- things that we didn't think would be safe or appropriate," the Apple Fellow said. "It will not be our decision whether those other marketplaces have the same terms and limitations."

While Apple has rules in place to prevent specific types of objectionable content from appearing in the App Store after years of input from families and governments, "Those rules will not apply in another marketplace unless they choose to make rules of their own, with whatever criteria they come up with," Schiller points out.

"Does that increase the risk of users, and families, running into objectionable content or other experiences? Yes it does."




Read on AppleInsider

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 50
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,755member
    It’s strange to me at a personal level that the EU would advocate for anything that puts people’s privacy at risk. When I worked on a customer loyalty program in the 90s the biggest pushback we received anywhere was from European governments who were concerned about our system (in the hands of our customers) maintaining personal information about what their customers were buying, like individual purchased items, frequency of purchase, quantity of purchase, and items that tended to be purchased together. We’re talking chips and bananas level stuff but the pushback was very hard.

    The apps that exist today on smart devices are capturing, aggregating, correlating, trending, and applying machine learning to far more personal and broadly sourced information related to individuals including location information, financial information, credit information, aggregated data from other point-of-sale sources both online and brick & mortar, online search history, social media, public databases, shared genealogical information, etc. This is nearly fingerprint level stuff. And the EU is perfectly fine letting anyone with the ability to put up a “store front” that can tap into that sort of information with a pinky-promise that that they won’t share it, use it for nefarious purposes, or safeguard it in cardboard boxes stored in their bathroom?

    What happens when a shallow pockets ISV with a homegrown storefront breaches your data? Are they going to provide any remedial action? Are you or a class action group going to sue them? For what, to make them sell their PlayStation to pay off the penalty from a court ordered settlement?

    No thanks. I think I’ll stay in the garden.
    Xedflashfan207aderutterroundaboutnow9secondkox2macxpressMisterKitmattinozGabywatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 50
    Tower72Tower72 Posts: 22unconfirmed, member
    As someone that ping ponged between iPhone and Androids since 2007 (currently with iPhone for a few phone models now and 15PM), let the consumer do what they want BUT add a disclaimer. If they install a 3rd party app outside of the App store and their phone goes all wonky on the software side,  Apple will NOT fix it and the consumer has to accept responsibility .  I have rooted all of my Android phones and jailbroke my old iPhones in the past, knowing full well that my actions could have consequences and I could install something that I probably should not.  I dig the walled garden approach Apple has but honestly, I do miss the freedom I had with Android devices sometimes and if my devices ever went nuts, I simply restored from a backup and lesson learned. Oh And I really love this line

    "Ultimately, there are things that we have not allowed on our App Store-- things that we didn't think would be safe or appropriate". A huge portion of the userbase is well over 18 with the ability to think for themselves,  and Apple wants to tell people what is appropriate or not based on what, their standards? 

    Still though I think this is a scare tactic, as installing things from outside of the official app store, will cut into Apples profits. 
    edited February 3 williamlondon
  • Reply 3 of 50
    Tower72 said:
    As someone that ping ponged between iPhone and Androids since 2007 (currently with iPhone for a few phone models now and 15PM), let the consumer do what they want BUT add a disclaimer. If they install a 3rd party app outside of the App store and their phone goes all wonky on the software side,  Apple will NOT fix it and the consumer has to accept responsibility .  I have rooted all of my Android phones and jailbroke my old iPhones in the past, knowing full well that my actions could have consequences and I could install something that I probably should not.  I dig the walled garden approach Apple has but honestly, I do miss the freedom I had with Android devices sometimes and if my devices ever went nuts, I simply restored from a backup and lesson learned. 

    Still though I think this is a scare tactic, as installing things from outside of the official app store, will cut into Apples profits. 
    Except this generation has been taught that nothing is their fault and there’s always someone else to blame. 
    ForumPostdanoxmacxpressMisterKitwatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 4 of 50
    byronlbyronl Posts: 377member
    designr said:
    So the same thing Apple has been saying all along.

    Nothing new here.

    What would be new is admitting that this is primarily about money.

    The sad thing is that this is one area where Apple is being remarkably short-sighted. A study of history—both in the recent tech world and in the longer scope of industry and technology—will show that closed (AKA "walled garden") systems eventually succumb to open ecosystems. Apple has a chance to get ahead of that and actually ride that if they were a bit more enlightened and less control-obsessed. Oh well.
    can you provide some examples of walled gardens that failed to open ecosystems?
    ForumPostmacxpressmattinozwatto_cobradarelrexjony0
  • Reply 5 of 50
    XedXed Posts: 2,888member
    Tower72 said:
    As someone that ping ponged between iPhone and Androids since 2007 (currently with iPhone for a few phone models now and 15PM), let the consumer do what they want BUT add a disclaimer. If they install a 3rd party app outside of the App store and their phone goes all wonky on the software side,  Apple will NOT fix it and the consumer has to accept responsibility .  I have rooted all of my Android phones and jailbroke my old iPhones in the past, knowing full well that my actions could have consequences and I could install something that I probably should not.  I dig the walled garden approach Apple has but honestly, I do miss the freedom I had with Android devices sometimes and if my devices ever went nuts, I simply restored from a backup and lesson learned. 

    Still though I think this is a scare tactic, as installing things from outside of the official app store, will cut into Apples profits. 
    Except this generation has been taught that nothing is their fault and there’s always someone else to blame. 
    OK Boomer.  It sounds like you're denying all the issues the older generations caused that the younger generations are constantly fighting to resolve. Climate change, housing market, Roe v Wade, social security, immigration, Citizens United v. FEC, and on and on and on.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/boomer-greed-ruined-economy-gen-z-millennials-labor-shortage-inflation-2023-3?op=1
    edited February 3 9secondkox2Solimichelb76williamlondonRespite
  • Reply 6 of 50
    designr said:

    What would be new is admitting that this is primarily about money.
    If the prices for the same app on Apple vs New Store are same, well that proves it's only about money.
    New browser - all about tracking (money).
    Prices are not 15% or 30% less, Money.

    Apple just sent this out:

    "Price updates
    On February 13, pricing for apps and in-app purchases* will be updated for the Benin, Colombia, Tajikistan, and Türkiye storefronts. Also, these updates consider the following tax changes:

    • Benin: value-added tax (VAT) introduction of 18%
    • Tajikistan: VAT rate decrease from 15% to 14%

    Prices will be updated on the Benin, Colombia, Tajikistan, and Türkiye storefronts if you haven’t selected one of these as the base for your app or in‑app purchase."

    Are those new store fronts going to do all this bookkeeping for you? Probably not. They're probably only going to work in the EU.

    And I think I read somewhere, if you leave the Apple Store, that account does not get to come back.

    It's all very shortsighted.








    watto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 50
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,755member
    Tower72 said:
    Oh And I really love this line

    "Ultimately, there are things that we have not allowed on our App Store-- things that we didn't think would be safe or appropriate". A huge portion of the userbase is well over 18 with the ability to think for themselves,  and Apple wants to tell people what is appropriate or not based on what, their standards? 

    Still though I think this is a scare tactic, as installing things from outside of the official app store, will cut into Apples profits. 
    Oh how I wish that most folks over 18 had the ability to think for themselves. Half the US population believes in crazy conspiracy theories and bold faced lies. Maybe it’s a case of convenience-of-thought where people choose to ignore reality because there’s a bigger cognitive or financial payoff for selectively sidestepping reality. 

    In any case, Apple’s products and services ecosystem is a packaged purchase that customers sign up for and pay to be part of. Nobody is forced to buy into Apple’s ecosystem, even if it is a nanny based system. The Android ecosystem exists and is fully available for anyone who doesn’t want to buy into Apple’s way of running the ecosystem that they’ve created and customers have long supported on a massive scale. I’m sure there are conversion utilities to move those who want to exit Apple’s ecosystem and join Android’s. Nobody is a prisoner here. 
    roundaboutnowForumPostkiltedgreendanoxGabylolliverwatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 8 of 50
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,028member
    The whole point is choice. 

    Contact of any kind, be it in person or online, comes with risks. 

    The App Store itself comes with risks and there is literally nothing Apple can do to really eliminate those risks. We live with them and hope a combination of common sense and common protections will reduce the chances of being impacted. 

    The risks exist for everyone, though. 

    Are those 600 APIs risk free? Probably not. Will there be some nasty bugs sitting in them? We live with these risks day to day. Some malicious, some not. 

    It is also entirely possible for an app store to offer more protections and have a better human review process than the official Apple App Store. I wonder what Phil would say to that? 

    It can swing both ways but the user must decide, not Apple (or not only Apple at least). 

    It's also entirely possible that an app store could be more restrictive than the App Store with regards to content. 

    Anyone who thinks it is dangerous to use non-Apple sanctioned app store will be able to completely ignore third party app stores and any of those risks. 

    The most important thing though, is that the user will be choosing to do so and not be obliged to pass through one toll gate where only Apple reaps the rewards in detriment to both users and competitors through lack of competition. 

    At the end of the day, and Phil understands this, it's more about money than security. 

    The Apple App Store has paid out billions, Apple says. It made a pretty penny in the process (even when taking into account running costs). 

    What the EU is trying to do is level the field. Choice is part of that. 

    designr9secondkox2michelb76ctt_zhmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 9 of 50
    What I want to know is, if someone has a successful app on the App Store, like say Monument Valley, and if they decide to continue selling it only on the App Store, then will pirate copies start showing up on EU alternative app stores, and will it be up to the authors of Monument Valley to try to do anything about that? Or does Apple intend to block that with its notarization feature, and will the EU even allow Apple to do so? This is a super-important point that strangely isn't addressed by Schiller in his interview, as far as I can tell.
    edited February 3 ForumPostdanoxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 50
    avon b7 said:
    The whole point is choice. 

    Contact of any kind, be it in person or online, comes with risks. 

    The App Store itself comes with risks and there is literally nothing Apple can do to really eliminate those risks. We live with them and hope a combination of common sense and common protections will reduce the chances of being impacted. 

    The risks exist for everyone, though. 

    Are those 600 APIs risk free? Probably not. Will there be some nasty bugs sitting in them? We live with these risks day to day. Some malicious, some not. 

    It is also entirely possible for an app store to offer more protections and have a better human review process than the official Apple App Store. I wonder what Phil would say to that? 

    It can swing both ways but the user must decide, not Apple (or not only Apple at least). 

    It's also entirely possible that an app store could be more restrictive than the App Store with regards to content. 

    Anyone who thinks it is dangerous to use non-Apple sanctioned app store will be able to completely ignore third party app stores and any of those risks. 

    The most important thing though, is that the user will be choosing to do so and not be obliged to pass through one toll gate where only Apple reaps the rewards in detriment to both users and competitors through lack of competition. 

    At the end of the day, and Phil understands this, it's more about money than security. 

    The Apple App Store has paid out billions, Apple says. It made a pretty penny in the process (even when taking into account running costs). 

    What the EU is trying to do is level the field. Choice is part of that. 

    People already have choice. Choice of apps, choice of phones, choice of providers, etc. 

    What you propose is a misnomer. 

    Right now you can get any app from any company on the App Store. Plenty of choice. 

    Oh, wait. You’re not talking about choice, you’re talking about stripping the rights of a business to make money off of something they built with their hard earned money, time, energy, and risk taking - in order for others to get a free ride. 

    Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core.

    companies can sell apps. But they pay apple a platform commission just like you do when you sell anywhere, be it brick and mortar stores, online retailers, bookstores, coffee shops, etc. 

    what you advocate is punishing successful companies and removing their right to earn for their hard earned sales space while propping up the less successful by forcibly making the successful pay for their ride. 

    That’s theft at gunpoint. 
    ForumPostdanoxmacxpresscanukstormtmaywatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 11 of 50
    charlesncharlesn Posts: 1,174member
    designr said:

    The sad thing is that this is one area where Apple is being remarkably short-sighted. A study of history—both in the recent tech world and in the longer scope of industry and technology—will show that closed (AKA "walled garden") systems eventually succumb to open ecosystems. Apple has a chance to get ahead of that and actually ride that if they were a bit more enlightened and less control-obsessed. Oh well.
    You're so right. Stupid Apple with their idiotic "walled garden" that's doomed. You would think that becoming the world's most valuable company in the history of companies would have taught it a lesson. Or being named "World's Most Admired Company" for 17 straight years and counting. Or earning 85% of ALL global smartphone profits. Or launching retail stores that earn more per square foot than any other multi-store retailer in the world. Or launching a line of watches that, in less than a decade, now outsell all other watches combined. These Apple fools have been lurching from failure to failure for decades now, blissfully unaware of the cliff they'll walk off any day now, when they should have been listening to smart people like you! 
    ForumPostkiltedgreen9secondkox2williamlondondanoxMisterKitlolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 50
    opinionopinion Posts: 111member
    Will this mean that an app can be chosen to be distributed only by the third party option here in Europe? What will that mean to me who only want to download apps via Apples App store?
    9secondkox2williamlondonradarthekatlolliverwatto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 13 of 50
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,028member
    avon b7 said:
    The whole point is choice. 

    Contact of any kind, be it in person or online, comes with risks. 

    The App Store itself comes with risks and there is literally nothing Apple can do to really eliminate those risks. We live with them and hope a combination of common sense and common protections will reduce the chances of being impacted. 

    The risks exist for everyone, though. 

    Are those 600 APIs risk free? Probably not. Will there be some nasty bugs sitting in them? We live with these risks day to day. Some malicious, some not. 

    It is also entirely possible for an app store to offer more protections and have a better human review process than the official Apple App Store. I wonder what Phil would say to that? 

    It can swing both ways but the user must decide, not Apple (or not only Apple at least). 

    It's also entirely possible that an app store could be more restrictive than the App Store with regards to content. 

    Anyone who thinks it is dangerous to use non-Apple sanctioned app store will be able to completely ignore third party app stores and any of those risks. 

    The most important thing though, is that the user will be choosing to do so and not be obliged to pass through one toll gate where only Apple reaps the rewards in detriment to both users and competitors through lack of competition. 

    At the end of the day, and Phil understands this, it's more about money than security. 

    The Apple App Store has paid out billions, Apple says. It made a pretty penny in the process (even when taking into account running costs). 

    What the EU is trying to do is level the field. Choice is part of that. 

    People already have choice. Choice of apps, choice of phones, choice of providers, etc. 

    What you propose is a misnomer. 

    Right now you can get any app from any company on the App Store. Plenty of choice. 

    Oh, wait. You’re not talking about choice, you’re talking about stripping the rights of a business to make money off of something they built with their hard earned money, time, energy, and risk taking - in order for others to get a free ride. 

    Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core.

    companies can sell apps. But they pay apple a platform commission just like you do when you sell anywhere, be it brick and mortar stores, online retailers, bookstores, coffee shops, etc. 

    what you advocate is punishing successful companies and removing their right to earn for their hard earned sales space while propping up the less successful by forcibly making the successful pay for their ride. 

    That’s theft at gunpoint. 

    You clearly haven't read anything on the DMA/DSA package. 

    I suggest you do.

    "Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core."

    You will find that is completely wrong at its core when applied to the situation the EU (with good reason) wants to tackle. 

    Now, if Apple agreed with you, it would have taken measures well before now to get any wrongs righted. 

    The fact that it hasn't, says it all and it had margin to do so. 

    The hard truth is that Apple knows it's a gatekeeper and has been for a while now. 

    It had a good ride. Google too! And the others. 

    It's been extremely lucky (the EU banks haven't been) that the EU didn't deem the App Store contract clauses abusive and demand the return of funds to developers and customers. 

    The complaints never asked for that. 

    Over the last ten years Spanish banks alone have had to return billions to customers. 

    If it had been up for consideration I wouldn't like to guess which way that would have gone. 

    Your idea of how business works is being challenged in the EU, South Korea, Japan (?) and what do you think will happen in the US? The land of the lobby.

    Which way do you think things will go there? 

    People have not had choice. There is no argument about that and one of the reasons Apple probably hasn't fought this legally is that it knows full well that the 'informational' side of the 'contract' with users is not transparent in any way. 

    Choice was taken from them, in the vast majority of cases without them even knowing because they were never informed. 

    I have yet to meet an iOS user that has a relatively decent understanding of the restrictions that buying an iDevice brings. 

    I would love for someone to officially tackle that particular issue. 

    The EU wants to give that choice back to users. 

    Apple has made a proposition but, to be brutally honest, I can't see how it meets even the premise of the preamble of the legal text, let alone the text itself.

    But we will see. 
    9secondkox2ctt_zh
  • Reply 14 of 50
    danoxdanox Posts: 3,423member
    The Apple online store in the EU only brings in only 7% of the worldwide App store revenue for Apples online stores across the world.

    https://apple.slashdot.org/story/24/02/02/217244/apple-says-eu-represents-7-of-global-app-store-revenue#comments

    From poster: ShanghaiBill "America is the biggest App Store revenue source. China and Japan are #2 and #3, followed by the UK, Taiwan, Canada, and Korea. Germany is the first EU country at #8. Australia is #9, and France is #10"

    They the EU have no leverage over Apple long term.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 50
    cpsrocpsro Posts: 3,239member
    Ok, I'm all for there being just one app store--Apple's--but when I hear "over 600 new APIs for developers," as a developer myself (for Mac, not iOS/iPadOS), I want to puke.
    williamlondonctt_zhwatto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 50
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,763member
    designr said:
    The sad thing is that this is one area where Apple is being remarkably short-sighted. A study of history—both in the recent tech world and in the longer scope of industry and technology—will show that closed (AKA "walled garden") systems eventually succumb to open ecosystems.
    Only once those technologies have been commodified. You still need incentives for companies to come up with something new or do things in an innovative way. If you force everyone to be open about everything, there's no incentive to invest heavily in something new/innovative because it'll just be cloned and sold for cheaper by others who didn't have to pay the upfront R&D costs.

    I came of age in the tech industry as Linux was finding its footing, and loved the openness of it because I could learn how hardware and software worked from bottom to top. However, in retrospect, while it was fun to learn about technologies which had been reverse engineered and copied from companies like Sun Microsystems, I also realized the effect of such efforts was the devaluation of technology and most of the money from technology products going to the big manufacturing companies, not the engineers who were designing and creating it. Due to the fact that most of the software and hardware was just cloned, commodified components which didn't require much engineering effort to put together. Really just a cheap assembly line of software and hardware with very little true engineering.

    And yes, there is a need for commodified technology products in the world to make that technology accessible to all. However, it would be sad to see the whole world made up entirely of cheap, cloned products because there's no incentive to do otherwise.
    edited February 3 watto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 50
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    The whole point is choice. 

    Contact of any kind, be it in person or online, comes with risks. 

    The App Store itself comes with risks and there is literally nothing Apple can do to really eliminate those risks. We live with them and hope a combination of common sense and common protections will reduce the chances of being impacted. 

    The risks exist for everyone, though. 

    Are those 600 APIs risk free? Probably not. Will there be some nasty bugs sitting in them? We live with these risks day to day. Some malicious, some not. 

    It is also entirely possible for an app store to offer more protections and have a better human review process than the official Apple App Store. I wonder what Phil would say to that? 

    It can swing both ways but the user must decide, not Apple (or not only Apple at least). 

    It's also entirely possible that an app store could be more restrictive than the App Store with regards to content. 

    Anyone who thinks it is dangerous to use non-Apple sanctioned app store will be able to completely ignore third party app stores and any of those risks. 

    The most important thing though, is that the user will be choosing to do so and not be obliged to pass through one toll gate where only Apple reaps the rewards in detriment to both users and competitors through lack of competition. 

    At the end of the day, and Phil understands this, it's more about money than security. 

    The Apple App Store has paid out billions, Apple says. It made a pretty penny in the process (even when taking into account running costs). 

    What the EU is trying to do is level the field. Choice is part of that. 

    People already have choice. Choice of apps, choice of phones, choice of providers, etc. 

    What you propose is a misnomer. 

    Right now you can get any app from any company on the App Store. Plenty of choice. 

    Oh, wait. You’re not talking about choice, you’re talking about stripping the rights of a business to make money off of something they built with their hard earned money, time, energy, and risk taking - in order for others to get a free ride. 

    Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core.

    companies can sell apps. But they pay apple a platform commission just like you do when you sell anywhere, be it brick and mortar stores, online retailers, bookstores, coffee shops, etc. 

    what you advocate is punishing successful companies and removing their right to earn for their hard earned sales space while propping up the less successful by forcibly making the successful pay for their ride. 

    That’s theft at gunpoint. 

    You clearly haven't read anything on the DMA/DSA package. 

    I suggest you do.

    "Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core."

    You will find that is completely wrong at its core when applied to the situation the EU (with good reason) wants to tackle. 

    Now, if Apple agreed with you, it would have taken measures well before now to get any wrongs righted. 

    The fact that it hasn't, says it all and it had margin to do so. 

    The hard truth is that Apple knows it's a gatekeeper and has been for a while now. 

    It had a good ride. Google too! And the others. 

    It's been extremely lucky (the EU banks haven't been) that the EU didn't deem the App Store contract clauses abusive and demand the return of funds to developers and customers. 

    The complaints never asked for that. 

    Over the last ten years Spanish banks alone have had to return billions to customers. 

    If it had been up for consideration I wouldn't like to guess which way that would have gone. 

    Your idea of how business works is being challenged in the EU, South Korea, Japan (?) and what do you think will happen in the US? The land of the lobby.

    Which way do you think things will go there? 

    People have not had choice. There is no argument about that and one of the reasons Apple probably hasn't fought this legally is that it knows full well that the 'informational' side of the 'contract' with users is not transparent in any way. 

    Choice was taken from them, in the vast majority of cases without them even knowing because they were never informed. 

    I have yet to meet an iOS user that has a relatively decent understanding of the restrictions that buying an iDevice brings. 

    I would love for someone to officially tackle that particular issue. 

    The EU wants to give that choice back to users. 

    Apple has made a proposition but, to be brutally honest, I can't see how it meets even the premise of the preamble of the legal text, let alone the text itself.

    But we will see. 
    You presume so much. I’m guess that helps your narrative rather than actual comprehension. 

    I have been following this since it was just a rumor. 

    It’s not some great mystery or complex issue. It’s a story of abuse of power on the part of a government and greed on the part of SOME developers. 

    Free lesson: the purpose of business is to make a profit. That’s the entire point. Now you have some unscrupulous folks who will do any shady thing (a la epic) to make a dime and then you have Apple, which uses its financial success as a means to bring change for the better in terms of human rights, our God-given resources in this planet, and ethical practices. 

    The EU wants to pretend that there is only one side to this issue - that developers are somehow being treated unfairly and that Apple needs to concede its policies and profits in order to benefit those companies. 

    There is also Apple’s side as a legit business that has enhanced the lives of countless people the world over. Then there is the third side of this triangle which is the consumer, who purposely buys Apple for the reliability, convenience, security and privacy they offer in comparison to the other choices they have. 

    The easily understood problem with that is that there is no problem with the situation as it was. 

    Apple had built (at great risk in a cutthroat arena mind you), a platform that is differentiated (another extremely important business principle) by its emphasis on security and privacy while operating one of the first digital stores of its kind. 

    This store followed the familiar, fair, and perfectly legal model used by brick and mortar stores, coffee shops, bookstores, Nintendo cartridges or App Store, PlayStation discs or App Store, etc. 

    if you have a product that you want discovered and bought by a certain large audience, you pay a commission to be discovered and bought on said platform and enjoy the rewards. 

    when you go into a barnes and noble store, you don’t find a competing bookstore operating out of a pop up tent inside. You find books by authors and publishers who’ve partnered with barnes and noble and pay a significant platform fee to be featured at their bookstores. Same thing with Walmart, etc. 

    payment systems are another thing. You don’t sell an item through Walmart and then set up your own kiosk inside with your own payment system so Walmart can’t make their just due. You use their payment sustem, they account for it and you get your cut. Your barcodes and shipping numbers ensure that your accounting keeps theirs honest, etc. 

    everybody wins. 

    What you’re pushing for and want to see the eu do, is that the developers win the lottery at apples expense. It’s unjust, unfair, corrupt, and against basic business ethics and principles. 

    Here, let’s put it in common man logic:

    sid apple violate any laws in the 15 years or so that the App Store has been running? 

    No. 

    They literally have to make a new rule in order to force an agenda (whether at the smokescreen behest of some shady developers or not). They literally had to create a box from thin air (“gatekeeper”)to put companies such as apple into in order to make their scheme work. 

    Hopefully we see whoever the next American admin is go after the eu for this kind of extortion and stand up for American companies at home and abroad. You don’t just shaft Apple like that in a sweeping legislation as if their side of the story (and the customers!!!) doesn’t matter. 

    As far as Apple navigating a historically horrendous decision, they’ve done admirably. They Leo perfectly to the acts requirements while also ensuring they keep their just due. Developers get what the act promises and apple doesn’t have to lose out. 

    As far as the eu ruling is concerned, apple has made it a win-win. That’s a good thing. 

    The only ones who have a problem with that are those who actively want to see apple harmed and that’s not business in good faith. Those companies themselves need to be called out for such attitudes and actions. And apple should have the right to bar any such hostile companies from doing business on their platform entirely. 
    edited February 3 watto_cobrajony0
  • Reply 18 of 50
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,028member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    The whole point is choice. 

    Contact of any kind, be it in person or online, comes with risks. 

    The App Store itself comes with risks and there is literally nothing Apple can do to really eliminate those risks. We live with them and hope a combination of common sense and common protections will reduce the chances of being impacted. 

    The risks exist for everyone, though. 

    Are those 600 APIs risk free? Probably not. Will there be some nasty bugs sitting in them? We live with these risks day to day. Some malicious, some not. 

    It is also entirely possible for an app store to offer more protections and have a better human review process than the official Apple App Store. I wonder what Phil would say to that? 

    It can swing both ways but the user must decide, not Apple (or not only Apple at least). 

    It's also entirely possible that an app store could be more restrictive than the App Store with regards to content. 

    Anyone who thinks it is dangerous to use non-Apple sanctioned app store will be able to completely ignore third party app stores and any of those risks. 

    The most important thing though, is that the user will be choosing to do so and not be obliged to pass through one toll gate where only Apple reaps the rewards in detriment to both users and competitors through lack of competition. 

    At the end of the day, and Phil understands this, it's more about money than security. 

    The Apple App Store has paid out billions, Apple says. It made a pretty penny in the process (even when taking into account running costs). 

    What the EU is trying to do is level the field. Choice is part of that. 

    People already have choice. Choice of apps, choice of phones, choice of providers, etc. 

    What you propose is a misnomer. 

    Right now you can get any app from any company on the App Store. Plenty of choice. 

    Oh, wait. You’re not talking about choice, you’re talking about stripping the rights of a business to make money off of something they built with their hard earned money, time, energy, and risk taking - in order for others to get a free ride. 

    Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core.

    companies can sell apps. But they pay apple a platform commission just like you do when you sell anywhere, be it brick and mortar stores, online retailers, bookstores, coffee shops, etc. 

    what you advocate is punishing successful companies and removing their right to earn for their hard earned sales space while propping up the less successful by forcibly making the successful pay for their ride. 

    That’s theft at gunpoint. 

    You clearly haven't read anything on the DMA/DSA package. 

    I suggest you do.

    "Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core."

    You will find that is completely wrong at its core when applied to the situation the EU (with good reason) wants to tackle. 

    Now, if Apple agreed with you, it would have taken measures well before now to get any wrongs righted. 

    The fact that it hasn't, says it all and it had margin to do so. 

    The hard truth is that Apple knows it's a gatekeeper and has been for a while now. 

    It had a good ride. Google too! And the others. 

    It's been extremely lucky (the EU banks haven't been) that the EU didn't deem the App Store contract clauses abusive and demand the return of funds to developers and customers. 

    The complaints never asked for that. 

    Over the last ten years Spanish banks alone have had to return billions to customers. 

    If it had been up for consideration I wouldn't like to guess which way that would have gone. 

    Your idea of how business works is being challenged in the EU, South Korea, Japan (?) and what do you think will happen in the US? The land of the lobby.

    Which way do you think things will go there? 

    People have not had choice. There is no argument about that and one of the reasons Apple probably hasn't fought this legally is that it knows full well that the 'informational' side of the 'contract' with users is not transparent in any way. 

    Choice was taken from them, in the vast majority of cases without them even knowing because they were never informed. 

    I have yet to meet an iOS user that has a relatively decent understanding of the restrictions that buying an iDevice brings. 

    I would love for someone to officially tackle that particular issue. 

    The EU wants to give that choice back to users. 

    Apple has made a proposition but, to be brutally honest, I can't see how it meets even the premise of the preamble of the legal text, let alone the text itself.

    But we will see. 
    You presume so much. I’m guess that helps your narrative rather than actual comprehension. 

    I have been following this since it was just a rumor. 

    It’s not some great mystery or complex issue. It’s a story of abuse of power on the part of a government and greed on the part of SOME developers. 

    Free lesson: the purpose of business is to make a profit. That’s the entire point. Now you have some unscrupulous folks who will do any shady thing (a la epic) to make a dime and then you have Apple, which uses its financial success as a means to bring change for the better in terms of human rights, our God-given resources in this planet, and ethical practices. 

    The EU wants to pretend that there is only one side to this issue - that developers are somehow being treated unfairly and that Apple needs to concede its policies and profits in order to benefit those companies. 

    There is also Apple’s side as a legit business that has enhanced the lives of countless people the world over. Then there is the third side of this triangle which is the consumer, who purposely buys Apple for the reliability, convenience, security and privacy they offer in comparison to the other choices they have. 

    The easily understood problem with that is that there is no problem with the situation as it was. 

    Apple had built (at great risk in a cutthroat arena mind you), a platform that is differentiated (another extremely important business principle) by its emphasis on security and privacy while operating one of the first digital stores of its kind. 

    This store followed the familiar, fair, and perfectly legal model used by brick and mortar stores, coffee shops, bookstores, Nintendo cartridges or App Store, PlayStation discs or App Store, etc. 

    if you have a product that you want discovered and bought by a certain large audience, you pay a commission to be discovered and bought on said platform and enjoy the rewards. 

    when you go into a barnes and noble store, you don’t find a competing bookstore operating out of a pop up tent inside. You find books by authors and publishers who’ve partnered with barnes and noble and pay a significant platform fee to be featured at their bookstores. Same thing with Walmart, etc. 

    payment systems are another thing. You don’t sell an item through Walmart and then set up your own kiosk inside with your own payment system so Walmart can’t make their just due. You use their payment sustem, they account for it and you get your cut. Your barcodes and shipping numbers ensure that your accounting keeps theirs honest, etc. 

    everybody wins. 

    What you’re pushing for and want to see the eu do, is that the developers win the lottery at apples expense. It’s unjust, unfair, corrupt, and against basic business ethics and principles. 

    Here, let’s put it in common man logic:

    sid apple violate any laws in the 15 years or so that the App Store has been running? 

    No. 

    They literally have to make a new rule in order to force an agenda (whether at the smokescreen behest of some shady developers or not). They literally had to create a box from thin air (“gatekeeper”)to put companies such as apple into in order to make their scheme work. 

    Hopefully we see whoever the next American admin is go after the eu for this kind of extortion and stand up for American companies at home and abroad. You don’t just shaft Apple like that in a sweeping legislation as if their side of the story (and the customers!!!) doesn’t matter. 
    This has nothing to do with brick and mortar stores and, of course, times have changed.

    Hence the DMA/DSA package. 

    Business cannot be done at any cost and as you will see right here on AI, a class action suit against the App Store has just been given the go ahead. 

    You might be swimming against the current. 

    No one is shafting anyone here. 
    9secondkox2ctt_zh
  • Reply 19 of 50
    doggonedoggone Posts: 401member
    Unfortunately Apple can't do anything about having to allow 3rd party stores.  I for one won't use them.  
    Apple will have to figure out a way to sandbox those apps so they can't mine data from the phone that they don't generate themselves., like passwords, banking information etc. 
    What I find bizarre is that Microsoft still have a big monopoly in OS software, Video gaming makers have close software stores and the EU doesn't do anything about those.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 20 of 50
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    The whole point is choice. 

    Contact of any kind, be it in person or online, comes with risks. 

    The App Store itself comes with risks and there is literally nothing Apple can do to really eliminate those risks. We live with them and hope a combination of common sense and common protections will reduce the chances of being impacted. 

    The risks exist for everyone, though. 

    Are those 600 APIs risk free? Probably not. Will there be some nasty bugs sitting in them? We live with these risks day to day. Some malicious, some not. 

    It is also entirely possible for an app store to offer more protections and have a better human review process than the official Apple App Store. I wonder what Phil would say to that? 

    It can swing both ways but the user must decide, not Apple (or not only Apple at least). 

    It's also entirely possible that an app store could be more restrictive than the App Store with regards to content. 

    Anyone who thinks it is dangerous to use non-Apple sanctioned app store will be able to completely ignore third party app stores and any of those risks. 

    The most important thing though, is that the user will be choosing to do so and not be obliged to pass through one toll gate where only Apple reaps the rewards in detriment to both users and competitors through lack of competition. 

    At the end of the day, and Phil understands this, it's more about money than security. 

    The Apple App Store has paid out billions, Apple says. It made a pretty penny in the process (even when taking into account running costs). 

    What the EU is trying to do is level the field. Choice is part of that. 

    People already have choice. Choice of apps, choice of phones, choice of providers, etc. 

    What you propose is a misnomer. 

    Right now you can get any app from any company on the App Store. Plenty of choice. 

    Oh, wait. You’re not talking about choice, you’re talking about stripping the rights of a business to make money off of something they built with their hard earned money, time, energy, and risk taking - in order for others to get a free ride. 

    Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core.

    companies can sell apps. But they pay apple a platform commission just like you do when you sell anywhere, be it brick and mortar stores, online retailers, bookstores, coffee shops, etc. 

    what you advocate is punishing successful companies and removing their right to earn for their hard earned sales space while propping up the less successful by forcibly making the successful pay for their ride. 

    That’s theft at gunpoint. 

    You clearly haven't read anything on the DMA/DSA package. 

    I suggest you do.

    "Sorry. That’s not how business work at its core."

    You will find that is completely wrong at its core when applied to the situation the EU (with good reason) wants to tackle. 

    Now, if Apple agreed with you, it would have taken measures well before now to get any wrongs righted. 

    The fact that it hasn't, says it all and it had margin to do so. 

    The hard truth is that Apple knows it's a gatekeeper and has been for a while now. 

    It had a good ride. Google too! And the others. 

    It's been extremely lucky (the EU banks haven't been) that the EU didn't deem the App Store contract clauses abusive and demand the return of funds to developers and customers. 

    The complaints never asked for that. 

    Over the last ten years Spanish banks alone have had to return billions to customers. 

    If it had been up for consideration I wouldn't like to guess which way that would have gone. 

    Your idea of how business works is being challenged in the EU, South Korea, Japan (?) and what do you think will happen in the US? The land of the lobby.

    Which way do you think things will go there? 

    People have not had choice. There is no argument about that and one of the reasons Apple probably hasn't fought this legally is that it knows full well that the 'informational' side of the 'contract' with users is not transparent in any way. 

    Choice was taken from them, in the vast majority of cases without them even knowing because they were never informed. 

    I have yet to meet an iOS user that has a relatively decent understanding of the restrictions that buying an iDevice brings. 

    I would love for someone to officially tackle that particular issue. 

    The EU wants to give that choice back to users. 

    Apple has made a proposition but, to be brutally honest, I can't see how it meets even the premise of the preamble of the legal text, let alone the text itself.

    But we will see. 
    You presume so much. I’m guess that helps your narrative rather than actual comprehension. 

    I have been following this since it was just a rumor. 

    It’s not some great mystery or complex issue. It’s a story of abuse of power on the part of a government and greed on the part of SOME developers. 

    Free lesson: the purpose of business is to make a profit. That’s the entire point. Now you have some unscrupulous folks who will do any shady thing (a la epic) to make a dime and then you have Apple, which uses its financial success as a means to bring change for the better in terms of human rights, our God-given resources in this planet, and ethical practices. 

    The EU wants to pretend that there is only one side to this issue - that developers are somehow being treated unfairly and that Apple needs to concede its policies and profits in order to benefit those companies. 

    There is also Apple’s side as a legit business that has enhanced the lives of countless people the world over. Then there is the third side of this triangle which is the consumer, who purposely buys Apple for the reliability, convenience, security and privacy they offer in comparison to the other choices they have. 

    The easily understood problem with that is that there is no problem with the situation as it was. 

    Apple had built (at great risk in a cutthroat arena mind you), a platform that is differentiated (another extremely important business principle) by its emphasis on security and privacy while operating one of the first digital stores of its kind. 

    This store followed the familiar, fair, and perfectly legal model used by brick and mortar stores, coffee shops, bookstores, Nintendo cartridges or App Store, PlayStation discs or App Store, etc. 

    if you have a product that you want discovered and bought by a certain large audience, you pay a commission to be discovered and bought on said platform and enjoy the rewards. 

    when you go into a barnes and noble store, you don’t find a competing bookstore operating out of a pop up tent inside. You find books by authors and publishers who’ve partnered with barnes and noble and pay a significant platform fee to be featured at their bookstores. Same thing with Walmart, etc. 

    payment systems are another thing. You don’t sell an item through Walmart and then set up your own kiosk inside with your own payment system so Walmart can’t make their just due. You use their payment sustem, they account for it and you get your cut. Your barcodes and shipping numbers ensure that your accounting keeps theirs honest, etc. 

    everybody wins. 

    What you’re pushing for and want to see the eu do, is that the developers win the lottery at apples expense. It’s unjust, unfair, corrupt, and against basic business ethics and principles. 

    Here, let’s put it in common man logic:

    sid apple violate any laws in the 15 years or so that the App Store has been running? 

    No. 

    They literally have to make a new rule in order to force an agenda (whether at the smokescreen behest of some shady developers or not). They literally had to create a box from thin air (“gatekeeper”)to put companies such as apple into in order to make their scheme work. 

    Hopefully we see whoever the next American admin is go after the eu for this kind of extortion and stand up for American companies at home and abroad. You don’t just shaft Apple like that in a sweeping legislation as if their side of the story (and the customers!!!) doesn’t matter. 
    This has nothing to do with brick and mortar stores and, of course, times have changed.

    Hence the DMA/DSA package. 

    Business cannot be done at any cost and as you will see right here on AI, a class action suit against the App Store has just been given the go ahead. 

    You might be swimming against the current. 

    No one is shafting anyone here. 

    Of course times change. But the legal principles don’t. Unless of course you’re the eh or similar corrupt organization. 

    Swimming against the current is something apple has been doing since inception. Nevertheless it’s the eu that has swam against the current of 15 years precedent in this case. 

    Hence as you say a new ruling which goes against the past 15 years of perfectly legal standing. 

    And yes the si is shafting apple and consumers here. That’s how it is. You saying the opposite unfortunately doesn’t make it true. 
    watto_cobra
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