Know what? I would have no problem in Israel taking the west bank and gaza with everything. Thats what countries do when they conquer land.
Deal?
eh - I'd actually rather give the land to the Palestinian people who's living conditions are crap.
With a country, economy, and something more important to do then send their children to blow up themselves and israeli children in pizza restaurants; perhaps a real long term peace would be possible.
What should not be forgotten is that the difficulties of the Palestinian people are not the sole fault of Israel. The problems are caused by every country in the region, and the leadership of the Palestinian people. Just because the Palestinian people have a problem with Israel - doesn't mean Israel is the only cause of their problems.
With a country, economy, and something more important to do then send their children to blow up themselves and israeli children in pizza restaurants; perhaps a real long term peace would be possible.
What should not be forgotten is that the difficulties of the Palestinian people are not the sole fault of Israel. The problems are caused by every country in the region, and the leadership of the Palestinian people. Just because the Palestinian people have a problem with Israel - doesn't mean Israel is the only cause of their problems.
Damn Grad student. I took you for a scott clone. Sorry.
My point was that Israel would never annect the occupied areas because then they had to make the palestinians there citizents of israel with all the right (including voting)
what is interesting is that no-one - EVER - demands the right of return for jews expelled from Arab lands. But that is O-K for everyone - cause if they DID go back - not that they could... they would be killed.
Palestinians want Israeli citizenship because it is desirable to have. If Israel granted Palestinians citizenship - they WOULD be able to vote. There aren't too many Arab countries where the Arab citizens can vote, but Arabs can in Israel. If Israel treated Palestinians the way most Arab countries treated Jewish refugees (note: emphasis on Arab, not muslim); they wouldn't want a right of return.
As for Israel being expansionist - once again - Israel gained land only in wars it didn't start. I suppose Israel was to fight only up to pre-existing boarders, and not fire a shot over them during these wars. Israel has expanded only when neighbors attempted to take Israeli land. Also - these lands Israel expanded into were part of British mandate Palestine before it was split 78% for the Arabs of Palestine - now Jordan (which doesn't grant citizenship to Palestinian refugees), 22% for Israel. The borders as drawn were disputed by both Jews and Arabs. The UN has different classifications for disputed vs. occupied lands.
Perhaps Israel is expansionist because Jews do not belong in Israel. Perhaps the existance of Israel itself is Jewish expansionism into Arab lands. This is the view Arabs had when Israel was established by the UN.
If you can recognize Israel, and its right to exist, then there is no question lands gained in wars against Israel are not expansionism - but instead the result of military conflict. If you cannot recognize Israel's right to exist, then all of Israel is expansionism.
You say Israel is expansionist because its borders changed not by nature - but by wars inflicted on it. This is not expansionism.
When you say Israel is expansionist - what you really mean is that the very existance of Isreal is the result of Jewish expansionism - and hence no matter the borders, Israel is expansionist. This denies the right of Israel to exist.
Comments
Deal?
Originally posted by Anders the White
Know what? I would have no problem in Israel taking the west bank and gaza with everything. Thats what countries do when they conquer land.
Deal?
eh - I'd actually rather give the land to the Palestinian people who's living conditions are crap.
With a country, economy, and something more important to do then send their children to blow up themselves and israeli children in pizza restaurants; perhaps a real long term peace would be possible.
What should not be forgotten is that the difficulties of the Palestinian people are not the sole fault of Israel. The problems are caused by every country in the region, and the leadership of the Palestinian people. Just because the Palestinian people have a problem with Israel - doesn't mean Israel is the only cause of their problems.
Originally posted by grad student
[BThe young soldiers of these countries were defeated by 18 year old Jews. [/B]
No! They weren't Jews, they were Israelis!
Right Scott?
Originally posted by grad student
is a state expansionist only if the land it gained is in wars it didn't start?
or is a state expansionist if it starts wars in order to gain land?
i would think that the latter definition supersedes the former.
A state is expansionist if it is expanding through the use of force (as opposed to Hawaii, which is still growing because of active volcanos.)
Originally posted by grad student
With a country, economy, and something more important to do then send their children to blow up themselves and israeli children in pizza restaurants; perhaps a real long term peace would be possible.
What should not be forgotten is that the difficulties of the Palestinian people are not the sole fault of Israel. The problems are caused by every country in the region, and the leadership of the Palestinian people. Just because the Palestinian people have a problem with Israel - doesn't mean Israel is the only cause of their problems.
True, true, true, and true.
My point was that Israel would never annect the occupied areas because then they had to make the palestinians there citizents of israel with all the right (including voting)
Originally posted by Longhorn
...someone who's last attempt at logic concluded that human beings live on the sun?
Oh my God.
Originally posted by Scott
Giant you've added nothing new. As usual.
OH SWEET DELICIOUS IRONY I WANT TO POUR CHOCOLATE ALL OVER YOU AND EAT YOU UP YUM!
Palestinians want Israeli citizenship because it is desirable to have. If Israel granted Palestinians citizenship - they WOULD be able to vote. There aren't too many Arab countries where the Arab citizens can vote, but Arabs can in Israel. If Israel treated Palestinians the way most Arab countries treated Jewish refugees (note: emphasis on Arab, not muslim); they wouldn't want a right of return.
As for Israel being expansionist - once again - Israel gained land only in wars it didn't start. I suppose Israel was to fight only up to pre-existing boarders, and not fire a shot over them during these wars. Israel has expanded only when neighbors attempted to take Israeli land. Also - these lands Israel expanded into were part of British mandate Palestine before it was split 78% for the Arabs of Palestine - now Jordan (which doesn't grant citizenship to Palestinian refugees), 22% for Israel. The borders as drawn were disputed by both Jews and Arabs. The UN has different classifications for disputed vs. occupied lands.
Perhaps Israel is expansionist because Jews do not belong in Israel. Perhaps the existance of Israel itself is Jewish expansionism into Arab lands. This is the view Arabs had when Israel was established by the UN.
If you can recognize Israel, and its right to exist, then there is no question lands gained in wars against Israel are not expansionism - but instead the result of military conflict. If you cannot recognize Israel's right to exist, then all of Israel is expansionism.
You say Israel is expansionist because its borders changed not by nature - but by wars inflicted on it. This is not expansionism.
When you say Israel is expansionist - what you really mean is that the very existance of Isreal is the result of Jewish expansionism - and hence no matter the borders, Israel is expansionist. This denies the right of Israel to exist.
Originally posted by giant
This from the boy that thinks any criticism of bush signifies anti-americanism.
Yes. Scott is also the boy who tosses around terms such as "arabist" and "islamist" as slurs.