Wedbush: AI & pent-up iPhone 16 demand outweigh concerns over China sales

Posted:
in iPhone

In a note seen by AppleInsider, investment firm Wedbush has told its clients that it is maintaining its price target for Apple, despite what it describes as a horror show of current problems.

Tim Cook at game tournament in Apple Taikoo Li, Chengdu
Tim Cook at a game tournament in Apple Taikoo Li, Chengdu



Wedbush raised its Apple target price to $250 in December 2023, specifically because of the company's long-term resilience, and also its enormous base of users. Since then, Apple has seen iPhone sales fall further in China, and it's also cancelled the Apple Car.

In the note, the analysts are clear in saying that they don't underestimate Apple's current problems. In particular, they say that having visited Asia, they have witnessed price discounting on the iPhone because of slow sales.

Those slow sales have at times been overhyped. But it is true that the iPhone 15 does not appear to be as popular in China as the iPhone 14, although Tim Cook blames the difference in part on currency fluctuations.

Calling that situation dismal, the analysts also regard the cancellation of the Apple Car as bad news since they say it means Apple spent a decade on a "long bad bet." They do note that the cancellation means Apple can redeploy staff onto its AI plans, however, and that is one reason it expects matters to improve.

The addition of AI -- or more prominent AI at least -- is a expected to help increase sales. Wedbush does already expect that iPhone sales will improve with the release of the iPhone 16 range, because it believes that there is a pent-up demand for upgrading.

Previously, it's predicted 220 million to 230 million iPhone sales across the whole of 2024. Based on its new estimates of the demand from upgraders likely to buy the iPhone 16, Wedbush's new note estimates a total of up to 270 million iPhones sold for the year.

Chart of Apple's stock price history and analyst price targets over time, marked with various ratings and dates.
Wedbush's price target for Apple over the years (Source: Wedbush)



Then, too, it notes that Apple's Services are strong and growing at double-digit rates. Plus Apple has what Wedbush describes as the strongest installed base of any company in the world.

It believes that with 2.2 billion iOS devices in active use, that Apple is going to be able to monetize that base further than it already has.

While Wedbush doesn't elaborate on this issue of monetizing existing users, Apple has many opportunities to do so. It can work to increase how many users subscribe to Apple TV+, or its iCloud tiers, or the Apple One bundle -- and it can also increase the cost of each of these.

Separately, investment firm Morgan Stanley has recently also come out saying that overall the cancellation of the Apple Car is a good move for the company.



Read on AppleInsider

Comments

  • Reply 1 of 15
    NYC362NYC362 Posts: 79member
    I believe that as iPhone sales in China decrease, much of that will be made up by increasing sales in India with an ever growing Apple footprint there along with a younger and wealthier demographic trend.

    The cancellation of the Car was not a $10 billion loss, much of that research into full self driving systems can and will be applied to various AI technologies and will also be a long term win for Apple. 
    Oferwilliamlondonjas99Bart Ywatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 15
    twolf2919twolf2919 Posts: 110member
    With respect to "pent-up demand for iPhone 16", Wedbush made the same claim when justifying their price target before iPhone 15 came out.  I guess a broken clock is going to be right  at least twice a day?  I have no idea why analysts expect AI to be a big growth generator for Apple..  Apple has been using AI for  years (e.g. object  and people recognition in Photos).  All Apple can really do with the latest AI craze, generative AI with large language models, is to improve Siri.  While Siri needs a lot of improvement, I don't see people flocking to iPhone, even if she gets a lot better  as an assistant.

    Analysts are just grasping at straws when it comes to Apple.  The fact is that it's been 8 years since Apple has produced a great new mass market product that  helped its bottom line - AiirPods (2016) and Apple Watch (2015).  The recently announced Vision Pro won't contribute meaningfully to growth for years.  So AAPL investors have nothing to look forward to.  Although services are growing well,  the gains there won't be more than the stagnation and outright reduction in iPhone sales that are  seen now.

    20% of Apple's sales come from China alone.  The economic situation there as well as the geopolitical rivalry with the US won't be resolved anytime soon, so I doubt sales there will improve in the near future.  Another poster mentioned India growth offsetting China sales losses.  I don't believe that.  First of all, sales in India are tiny in comparison.  Yes, they are growing nicely, but it'll be years before they approach the sales volume in China.
    muthuk_vanalingamdewmewatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 15
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,665member
    twolf2919 said:
    With respect to "pent-up demand for iPhone 16", Wedbush made the same claim when justifying their price target before iPhone 15 came out.  I guess a broken clock is going to be right  at least twice a day?  I have no idea why analysts expect AI to be a big growth generator for Apple..  Apple has been using AI for  years (e.g. object  and people recognition in Photos).  All Apple can really do with the latest AI craze, generative AI with large language models, is to improve Siri.  While Siri needs a lot of improvement, I don't see people flocking to iPhone, even if she gets a lot better  as an assistant.

    Analysts are just grasping at straws when it comes to Apple.  The fact is that it's been 8 years since Apple has produced a great new mass market product that  helped its bottom line - AiirPods (2016) and Apple Watch (2015).  The recently announced Vision Pro won't contribute meaningfully to growth for years.  So AAPL investors have nothing to look forward to.  Although services are growing well,  the gains there won't be more than the stagnation and outright reduction in iPhone sales that are  seen now.

    20% of Apple's sales come from China alone.  The economic situation there as well as the geopolitical rivalry with the US won't be resolved anytime soon, so I doubt sales there will improve in the near future.  Another poster mentioned India growth offsetting China sales losses.  I don't believe that.  First of all, sales in India are tiny in comparison.  Yes, they are growing nicely, but it'll be years before they approach the sales volume in China.
    On the AI front a lot is happening in the sector. Generative AI is moving wickedly fast. Sora (for videos) is very impressive even as a first release demo kind of 'look at what we can do now' technology.

    Tiny Large Language Models are gaining traction as is the ability to not only recognize an image or face but describe it too (contextualisation included).

    Ameca was quite popular at MWC and although it's a bit of a touring side show at lots of fairs nowadays, it does give you a peak of how even the most basic AI models can almost 'convince' you once paired with something human looking and basic movement.

    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8tkp4y

    I don't see Apple getting into robotics but AI will be important this year on many levels. 

    Past efforts were the same, or quite possibly less, than what others have delivered with ML etc so they need to deliver something to claw back mindset.

    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    edited March 5
  • Reply 4 of 15
    hammeroftruthhammeroftruth Posts: 1,309member
    avon b7 said:
    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    What frantic activity are you talking about?
    There are numerous AI products and projects that they have been working on for years. Just because it’s not a known consumer product does not mean that they haven’t been working on AI, or whatever Apple wants to call it. 

    This sounds like more of some reporter or analyst just deciding that because Apple has not made any references to AI, means they haven’t been working on anything related to the technology and were caught flat footed. 
    williamlondonjas99tmaywatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 15
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,665member
    avon b7 said:
    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    What frantic activity are you talking about?
    There are numerous AI products and projects that they have been working on for years. Just because it’s not a known consumer product does not mean that they haven’t been working on AI, or whatever Apple wants to call it. 

    This sounds like more of some reporter or analyst just deciding that because Apple has not made any references to AI, means they haven’t been working on anything related to the technology and were caught flat footed. 
    'seemingly' frantic. 

    Lack of any real shipping equivalent product. 

    Tim Cook going on record as 'pre-announcing' AI moves for this year. 

    Some people (with apparent insider information) here saying that Apple was basically putting the pedal to the metal to get AI baked into some products. No. Not just the ML stuff. 

    Car project shut down with claims that many employees will be transferred to AI teams.

    No one can know for sure of course but the lack of any equivalent shipping product (to what has been sucking all the news time up) is obviously telling. 

    Saying Apple has been 'doing ML for years' is saying nothing. So has everybody else.

    What markets react to is, tangible, shipping products and Apple is still to deliver where others are already advancing. 

    As things stand, WWDC will see important AI announcements. Why do you think Tim Cook put that particular piece of information into the public domain? 

    Apple went from not even wanting to utter the letters 'AI' last year to planting them straight up into this year's WWDC! That is some change of tack. 

    Once those announcements are made, what will happen? Will they start rolling out products immediately? Will they wait for this year's product refresh/iOS release? Will they be ready or released as beta? 

    September/October is still a long way off but competitors have been shipping AI related solutions for a while now and that is why we see almost daily news pieces on this or that advance and right across the technology board. Almost in parallel, we see news pieces that reflect on Apple's missing AI products. 

    We see those because they haven't been released. 

    MWC concluded just days ago and it was all about 5.5G and AI. 

    Generative AI is everywhere. It's now moving into the video realm. 

    Tiny Large Language Models are here. 

    Work on existing LLMs is advancing at an incredible pace. 

    Where has Apple been for the last two years in this area? Claiming they are working on it and always have been is saying nothing. 

    Everybody has been working on it. The difference is that all the big players except Apple have something to show for it. 

    That's why it's been in the news for what seems like forever now. 

    edited March 5
  • Reply 6 of 15
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    What frantic activity are you talking about?
    There are numerous AI products and projects that they have been working on for years. Just because it’s not a known consumer product does not mean that they haven’t been working on AI, or whatever Apple wants to call it. 

    This sounds like more of some reporter or analyst just deciding that because Apple has not made any references to AI, means they haven’t been working on anything related to the technology and were caught flat footed. 
    'seemingly' frantic. 

    Lack of any real shipping equivalent product. 

    Tim Cook going on record as 'pre-announcing' AI moves for this year. 

    Some people (with apparent insider information) here saying that Apple was basically putting the pedal to the metal to get AI baked into some products. No. Not just the ML stuff. 

    Car project shut down with claims that many employees will be transferred to AI teams.

    No one can know for sure of course but the lack of any equivalent shipping product (to what has been sucking all the news time up) is obviously telling. 

    Saying Apple has been 'doing ML for years' is saying nothing. So has everybody else.

    What markets react to is, tangible, shipping products and Apple is still to deliver where others are already advancing. 

    As things stand, WWDC will see important AI announcements. Why do you think Tim Cook put that particular piece of information into the public domain? 

    Apple went from not even wanting to utter the letters 'AI' last year to planting them straight up into this year's WWDC! That is some change of tack. 

    Once those announcements are made, what will happen? Will they start rolling out products immediately? Will they wait for this year's product refresh/iOS release? Will they be ready or released as beta? 

    September/October is still a long way off but competitors have been shipping AI related solutions for a while now and that is why we see almost daily news pieces on this or that advance and right across the technology board. Almost in parallel, we see news pieces that reflect on Apple's missing AI products. 

    We see those because they haven't been released. 

    MWC concluded just days ago and it was all about 5.5G and AI. 

    Generative AI is everywhere. It's now moving into the video realm. 

    Tiny Large Language Models are here. 

    Work on existing LLMs is advancing at an incredible pace. 

    Where has Apple been for the last two years in this area? Claiming they are working on it and always have been is saying nothing. 

    Everybody has been working on it. The difference is that all the big players except Apple have something to show for it. 

    That's why it's been in the news for what seems like forever now. 

    Sounds like all fluff to me. Nothing substantial from what you are talking about. 

    AI is about a large amount of data and being Apple, they have to make sure their core values of privacy is adhered to in using that data. That means not selling your data or using your data to identify you or to sell you stuff. So making sure that data is clean takes time. Do you think anything that a lot of these new products that are using AI has made takes into account your privacy? Nope. 

    Why do you think Walmart spent billions on buying Vizio? For the data, not the TVs. Your personal information is the new source of gold. 

    In order to build these things correctly, there needs to be that wall of anonymity to keep the information from identifying you directly. 

    You can’t rush AI development, unless you are throwing a ton of money to hire more data engineers and other people to build the server farms and make the data lakes. 

    There is also different types of data and different flavors of databases that don’t always work well together. That’s why companies like Dremio are trying to help get this technology  deployed faster. 

    There’s no real timeline that Apple has to adhere to other than making sure that they deliver products that will help the development of needed software for the Vision Pro.  That’s where the immediate need is, and the double edge sword of secrecy between each department.  Imagine working right next door to the building making the hardware and not knowing what they were doing and now you need to make applications for it that are up to standards. 
    williamlondonjas99watto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 15
    jellybellyjellybelly Posts: 111member
    twolf2919 said:
    With respect to "pent-up demand for iPhone 16", Wedbush made the same claim when justifying their price target before iPhone 15 came out.  I guess a broken clock is going to be right  at least twice a day?  …
    Well, if sales prediction of “picked up demand” last year didn’t come through, then that’s all the more carrying forward for pent-up demand this coming Fall.

    “… twolf2919 also said:
    “20% of Apple's sales come from China alone.  The economic situation there as well as the geopolitical rivalry with the US won't be resolved anytime soon, so I doubt sales there will improve in the near future.  Another poster mentioned India growth offsetting China sales losses.  I don't believe that.  First of all, sales in India are tiny in comparison.  Yes, they are growing nicely, but it'll be years before they approach the sales volume in China.”

    JellyBelly responding to twoIf2919:
    India growth does not have to equal all of China’s sales, it only needs to equal the drop in sales in China.

    JellyBelly comment in general:
    The Titan project was secretive regarding specific technology advances.  What was learned about object recognition and automotive systems will be very valuable as a contribution to Apples’s future application of this tech IP, that’s has been behind a company internal firewall.  While not making a car product, Apple could partner with one or more auto companies to license some of this IP on a non-disclosure basis—or a branded basis—albeit if branded, would require partner pay liability insurance for Apple. 

    The here-to-fore Titan skunkworks/firewalled/hidden tech will be a great addition to Apples AI tech.  
    While considering pundits’ criticism of Apple’s AI technology shortfalls, we have to remember several things:

    1.) Apple has always been reticent to discuss its technology advancements until it’s ready to drop a product using those advancements. 

    2.) Apple likes to under hype new product development until it’s revealed and has a release date.  

    3.) Apple likes to overachieve expectations, letting users discover many features that are not even part of product introductions. 

    4.) Every one of Apple’s, successful products in the last 27 years has been preceded by Apple being criticized for not having an equivalent product in the market to some existing technology.  And then, boom Apple releases a criticized product that brings new unfamiliar features that bring success to the new product within three years—and soon copied in the industry.  And their new product is the one with no equivalent elsewhere the market. 

    5.) Despite Apple’s mention of something in AI coming in the future, its history shows that it will tend to under-hype it—and then let the product or features create their own hype. And Apple also has a history that it doesn’t release products or features until they are ready—or ready to be refined and improved.

    6.) So far, many of Apple’s failures seem to have been opportunities to learn and apply with refinement.














    jas99tmayBart Ywatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 15
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    What frantic activity are you talking about?
    There are numerous AI products and projects that they have been working on for years. Just because it’s not a known consumer product does not mean that they haven’t been working on AI, or whatever Apple wants to call it. 

    This sounds like more of some reporter or analyst just deciding that because Apple has not made any references to AI, means they haven’t been working on anything related to the technology and were caught flat footed. 
    'seemingly' frantic. 

    Lack of any real shipping equivalent product. 

    Tim Cook going on record as 'pre-announcing' AI moves for this year. 

    Some people (with apparent insider information) here saying that Apple was basically putting the pedal to the metal to get AI baked into some products. No. Not just the ML stuff. 

    Car project shut down with claims that many employees will be transferred to AI teams.

    No one can know for sure of course but the lack of any equivalent shipping product (to what has been sucking all the news time up) is obviously telling. 

    Saying Apple has been 'doing ML for years' is saying nothing. So has everybody else.

    What markets react to is, tangible, shipping products and Apple is still to deliver where others are already advancing. 

    As things stand, WWDC will see important AI announcements. Why do you think Tim Cook put that particular piece of information into the public domain? 

    Apple went from not even wanting to utter the letters 'AI' last year to planting them straight up into this year's WWDC! That is some change of tack. 

    Once those announcements are made, what will happen? Will they start rolling out products immediately? Will they wait for this year's product refresh/iOS release? Will they be ready or released as beta? 

    September/October is still a long way off but competitors have been shipping AI related solutions for a while now and that is why we see almost daily news pieces on this or that advance and right across the technology board. Almost in parallel, we see news pieces that reflect on Apple's missing AI products. 

    We see those because they haven't been released. 

    MWC concluded just days ago and it was all about 5.5G and AI. 

    Generative AI is everywhere. It's now moving into the video realm. 

    Tiny Large Language Models are here. 

    Work on existing LLMs is advancing at an incredible pace. 

    Where has Apple been for the last two years in this area? Claiming they are working on it and always have been is saying nothing. 

    Everybody has been working on it. The difference is that all the big players except Apple have something to show for it. 

    That's why it's been in the news for what seems like forever now. 

    Sounds like all fluff to me. Nothing substantial from what you are talking about. 

    AI is about a large amount of data and being Apple, they have to make sure their core values of privacy is adhered to in using that data. That means not selling your data or using your data to identify you or to sell you stuff. So making sure that data is clean takes time. Do you think anything that a lot of these new products that are using AI has made takes into account your privacy? Nope. 



    Not necessarily about a large amount of data. 

    Apple can´t have such large amounts of data on device. We are talking about tiny iPhones.
    What Apple strives for is their offline AI function on device. 
    Everything will be customized on iOS. The attractiveness of this customization is that iOS will be no longer controlled by Apple, but by you. 

    Apple has personal data. Apple can offer a customized AI service incl. healthcare. 
    OpenAI or other Open Source enterprises do not have those information. Therefore, they would not know what advices they should give you. 

    Having large data does not mean necessarily that you are unstoppable. See Alphabet with Gemini what they f*cked up. 

    But I don´t think Apple will highlight at WDCC what I mentioned above. I don´t expect too much. 

    Wedbush.... We don´t know what to expect at WDCC, but saying it will drive their sales and boost the stock price.... Speculation at finest. 

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 15
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,665member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    What frantic activity are you talking about?
    There are numerous AI products and projects that they have been working on for years. Just because it’s not a known consumer product does not mean that they haven’t been working on AI, or whatever Apple wants to call it. 

    This sounds like more of some reporter or analyst just deciding that because Apple has not made any references to AI, means they haven’t been working on anything related to the technology and were caught flat footed. 
    'seemingly' frantic. 

    Lack of any real shipping equivalent product. 

    Tim Cook going on record as 'pre-announcing' AI moves for this year. 

    Some people (with apparent insider information) here saying that Apple was basically putting the pedal to the metal to get AI baked into some products. No. Not just the ML stuff. 

    Car project shut down with claims that many employees will be transferred to AI teams.

    No one can know for sure of course but the lack of any equivalent shipping product (to what has been sucking all the news time up) is obviously telling. 

    Saying Apple has been 'doing ML for years' is saying nothing. So has everybody else.

    What markets react to is, tangible, shipping products and Apple is still to deliver where others are already advancing. 

    As things stand, WWDC will see important AI announcements. Why do you think Tim Cook put that particular piece of information into the public domain? 

    Apple went from not even wanting to utter the letters 'AI' last year to planting them straight up into this year's WWDC! That is some change of tack. 

    Once those announcements are made, what will happen? Will they start rolling out products immediately? Will they wait for this year's product refresh/iOS release? Will they be ready or released as beta? 

    September/October is still a long way off but competitors have been shipping AI related solutions for a while now and that is why we see almost daily news pieces on this or that advance and right across the technology board. Almost in parallel, we see news pieces that reflect on Apple's missing AI products. 

    We see those because they haven't been released. 

    MWC concluded just days ago and it was all about 5.5G and AI. 

    Generative AI is everywhere. It's now moving into the video realm. 

    Tiny Large Language Models are here. 

    Work on existing LLMs is advancing at an incredible pace. 

    Where has Apple been for the last two years in this area? Claiming they are working on it and always have been is saying nothing. 

    Everybody has been working on it. The difference is that all the big players except Apple have something to show for it. 

    That's why it's been in the news for what seems like forever now. 

    Sounds like all fluff to me. Nothing substantial from what you are talking about. 

    AI is about a large amount of data and being Apple, they have to make sure their core values of privacy is adhered to in using that data. That means not selling your data or using your data to identify you or to sell you stuff. So making sure that data is clean takes time. Do you think anything that a lot of these new products that are using AI has made takes into account your privacy? Nope. 

    Why do you think Walmart spent billions on buying Vizio? For the data, not the TVs. Your personal information is the new source of gold. 

    In order to build these things correctly, there needs to be that wall of anonymity to keep the information from identifying you directly. 

    You can’t rush AI development, unless you are throwing a ton of money to hire more data engineers and other people to build the server farms and make the data lakes. 

    There is also different types of data and different flavors of databases that don’t always work well together. That’s why companies like Dremio are trying to help get this technology  deployed faster. 

    There’s no real timeline that Apple has to adhere to other than making sure that they deliver products that will help the development of needed software for the Vision Pro.  That’s where the immediate need is, and the double edge sword of secrecy between each department.  Imagine working right next door to the building making the hardware and not knowing what they were doing and now you need to make applications for it that are up to standards. 
    The reasons why Apple hasn't delivered are neither here nor there. The point is that in all this time they haven't produced a competing product. 

    If it were no big deal Tim Cook wouldn't have said anything about AI and this year. He would have kept mum for a big reveal in June. 

    He said it because it's a massive deal. 

    They deliberately tried to avoid the term last year by making out as if AI in the guise of ML was where the action was. That is correct and there is no denying that but newer AI related advances here and there is no doubt that these new product avenues are where the action is now. 

    Now that the pressure is really on, suddenly it's 'Oh yeah, we're working on that too'. 'Just wait til WWDC' [because right now we have nothing to show for it].

    It is anything but fluff IMO. 
  • Reply 10 of 15
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,328member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    What frantic activity are you talking about?
    There are numerous AI products and projects that they have been working on for years. Just because it’s not a known consumer product does not mean that they haven’t been working on AI, or whatever Apple wants to call it. 

    This sounds like more of some reporter or analyst just deciding that because Apple has not made any references to AI, means they haven’t been working on anything related to the technology and were caught flat footed. 
    'seemingly' frantic. 

    Lack of any real shipping equivalent product. 

    Tim Cook going on record as 'pre-announcing' AI moves for this year. 

    Some people (with apparent insider information) here saying that Apple was basically putting the pedal to the metal to get AI baked into some products. No. Not just the ML stuff. 

    Car project shut down with claims that many employees will be transferred to AI teams.

    No one can know for sure of course but the lack of any equivalent shipping product (to what has been sucking all the news time up) is obviously telling. 

    Saying Apple has been 'doing ML for years' is saying nothing. So has everybody else.

    What markets react to is, tangible, shipping products and Apple is still to deliver where others are already advancing. 

    As things stand, WWDC will see important AI announcements. Why do you think Tim Cook put that particular piece of information into the public domain? 

    Apple went from not even wanting to utter the letters 'AI' last year to planting them straight up into this year's WWDC! That is some change of tack. 

    Once those announcements are made, what will happen? Will they start rolling out products immediately? Will they wait for this year's product refresh/iOS release? Will they be ready or released as beta? 

    September/October is still a long way off but competitors have been shipping AI related solutions for a while now and that is why we see almost daily news pieces on this or that advance and right across the technology board. Almost in parallel, we see news pieces that reflect on Apple's missing AI products. 

    We see those because they haven't been released. 

    MWC concluded just days ago and it was all about 5.5G and AI. 

    Generative AI is everywhere. It's now moving into the video realm. 

    Tiny Large Language Models are here. 

    Work on existing LLMs is advancing at an incredible pace. 

    Where has Apple been for the last two years in this area? Claiming they are working on it and always have been is saying nothing. 

    Everybody has been working on it. The difference is that all the big players except Apple have something to show for it. 

    That's why it's been in the news for what seems like forever now. 

    Sounds like all fluff to me. Nothing substantial from what you are talking about. 

    AI is about a large amount of data and being Apple, they have to make sure their core values of privacy is adhered to in using that data. That means not selling your data or using your data to identify you or to sell you stuff. So making sure that data is clean takes time. Do you think anything that a lot of these new products that are using AI has made takes into account your privacy? Nope. 

    Why do you think Walmart spent billions on buying Vizio? For the data, not the TVs. Your personal information is the new source of gold. 

    In order to build these things correctly, there needs to be that wall of anonymity to keep the information from identifying you directly. 

    You can’t rush AI development, unless you are throwing a ton of money to hire more data engineers and other people to build the server farms and make the data lakes. 

    There is also different types of data and different flavors of databases that don’t always work well together. That’s why companies like Dremio are trying to help get this technology  deployed faster. 

    There’s no real timeline that Apple has to adhere to other than making sure that they deliver products that will help the development of needed software for the Vision Pro.  That’s where the immediate need is, and the double edge sword of secrecy between each department.  Imagine working right next door to the building making the hardware and not knowing what they were doing and now you need to make applications for it that are up to standards. 
    The reasons why Apple hasn't delivered are neither here nor there. The point is that in all this time they haven't produced a competing product. 

    If it were no big deal Tim Cook wouldn't have said anything about AI and this year. He would have kept mum for a big reveal in June. 

    He said it because it's a massive deal. 

    They deliberately tried to avoid the term last year by making out as if AI in the guise of ML was where the action was. That is correct and there is no denying that but newer AI related advances here and there is no doubt that these new product avenues are where the action is now. 

    Now that the pressure is really on, suddenly it's 'Oh yeah, we're working on that too'. 'Just wait til WWDC' [because right now we have nothing to show for it].

    It is anything but fluff IMO. 
    Given Apple's history of "being late to the party" on so much "hyped" technology, and somehow, to your everlasting chagrin, surviving, evolving, and "blessing" that technology for a significant number of the world's consumers, I worry little about Apple's AI plans.

    Henceforth, I await Apple to solve the classroom;

    https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1765374439678423509/photo/1

    "In the future AI will take over both sides of school essays so everyone can have more time to zone out on TikTok"
    Now that would be a winning strategy even the EU; always a machine to machine level playing field.
    edited March 6 watto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 15
    hammeroftruthhammeroftruth Posts: 1,309member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    What frantic activity are you talking about?
    There are numerous AI products and projects that they have been working on for years. Just because it’s not a known consumer product does not mean that they haven’t been working on AI, or whatever Apple wants to call it. 

    This sounds like more of some reporter or analyst just deciding that because Apple has not made any references to AI, means they haven’t been working on anything related to the technology and were caught flat footed. 
    'seemingly' frantic. 

    Lack of any real shipping equivalent product. 

    Tim Cook going on record as 'pre-announcing' AI moves for this year. 

    Some people (with apparent insider information) here saying that Apple was basically putting the pedal to the metal to get AI baked into some products. No. Not just the ML stuff. 

    Car project shut down with claims that many employees will be transferred to AI teams.

    No one can know for sure of course but the lack of any equivalent shipping product (to what has been sucking all the news time up) is obviously telling. 

    Saying Apple has been 'doing ML for years' is saying nothing. So has everybody else.

    What markets react to is, tangible, shipping products and Apple is still to deliver where others are already advancing. 

    As things stand, WWDC will see important AI announcements. Why do you think Tim Cook put that particular piece of information into the public domain? 

    Apple went from not even wanting to utter the letters 'AI' last year to planting them straight up into this year's WWDC! That is some change of tack. 

    Once those announcements are made, what will happen? Will they start rolling out products immediately? Will they wait for this year's product refresh/iOS release? Will they be ready or released as beta? 

    September/October is still a long way off but competitors have been shipping AI related solutions for a while now and that is why we see almost daily news pieces on this or that advance and right across the technology board. Almost in parallel, we see news pieces that reflect on Apple's missing AI products. 

    We see those because they haven't been released. 

    MWC concluded just days ago and it was all about 5.5G and AI. 

    Generative AI is everywhere. It's now moving into the video realm. 

    Tiny Large Language Models are here. 

    Work on existing LLMs is advancing at an incredible pace. 

    Where has Apple been for the last two years in this area? Claiming they are working on it and always have been is saying nothing. 

    Everybody has been working on it. The difference is that all the big players except Apple have something to show for it. 

    That's why it's been in the news for what seems like forever now. 

    Sounds like all fluff to me. Nothing substantial from what you are talking about. 

    AI is about a large amount of data and being Apple, they have to make sure their core values of privacy is adhered to in using that data. That means not selling your data or using your data to identify you or to sell you stuff. So making sure that data is clean takes time. Do you think anything that a lot of these new products that are using AI has made takes into account your privacy? Nope. 



    Not necessarily about a large amount of data. 

    Apple can´t have such large amounts of data on device. We are talking about tiny iPhones.
    What Apple strives for is their offline AI function on device. 
    Everything will be customized on iOS. The attractiveness of this customization is that iOS will be no longer controlled by Apple, but by you. 

    Apple has personal data. Apple can offer a customized AI service incl. healthcare. 
    OpenAI or other Open Source enterprises do not have those information. Therefore, they would not know what advices they should give you. 

    Having large data does not mean necessarily that you are unstoppable. See Alphabet with Gemini what they f*cked up. 

    But I don´t think Apple will highlight at WDCC what I mentioned above. I don´t expect too much. 

    Wedbush.... We don´t know what to expect at WDCC, but saying it will drive their sales and boost the stock price.... Speculation at finest. 

    It’s not device driven. They already use cloud based LLM in retail. The employees little devices connect to them wirelessly.

    they also use “cleansed data” when accessing databases that support Applecare. 

    All of the personal information you are talking about only resides on the customers device. Once it leaves the device, data that can identify you is scrubbed. Otherwise they would be violating their own pillar of privacy and HIPAA laws in the US. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 15
    hammeroftruthhammeroftruth Posts: 1,309member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    What frantic activity are you talking about?
    There are numerous AI products and projects that they have been working on for years. Just because it’s not a known consumer product does not mean that they haven’t been working on AI, or whatever Apple wants to call it. 

    This sounds like more of some reporter or analyst just deciding that because Apple has not made any references to AI, means they haven’t been working on anything related to the technology and were caught flat footed. 
    'seemingly' frantic. 

    Lack of any real shipping equivalent product. 

    Tim Cook going on record as 'pre-announcing' AI moves for this year. 

    Some people (with apparent insider information) here saying that Apple was basically putting the pedal to the metal to get AI baked into some products. No. Not just the ML stuff. 

    Car project shut down with claims that many employees will be transferred to AI teams.

    No one can know for sure of course but the lack of any equivalent shipping product (to what has been sucking all the news time up) is obviously telling. 

    Saying Apple has been 'doing ML for years' is saying nothing. So has everybody else.

    What markets react to is, tangible, shipping products and Apple is still to deliver where others are already advancing. 

    As things stand, WWDC will see important AI announcements. Why do you think Tim Cook put that particular piece of information into the public domain? 

    Apple went from not even wanting to utter the letters 'AI' last year to planting them straight up into this year's WWDC! That is some change of tack. 

    Once those announcements are made, what will happen? Will they start rolling out products immediately? Will they wait for this year's product refresh/iOS release? Will they be ready or released as beta? 

    September/October is still a long way off but competitors have been shipping AI related solutions for a while now and that is why we see almost daily news pieces on this or that advance and right across the technology board. Almost in parallel, we see news pieces that reflect on Apple's missing AI products. 

    We see those because they haven't been released. 

    MWC concluded just days ago and it was all about 5.5G and AI. 

    Generative AI is everywhere. It's now moving into the video realm. 

    Tiny Large Language Models are here. 

    Work on existing LLMs is advancing at an incredible pace. 

    Where has Apple been for the last two years in this area? Claiming they are working on it and always have been is saying nothing. 

    Everybody has been working on it. The difference is that all the big players except Apple have something to show for it. 

    That's why it's been in the news for what seems like forever now. 

    Sounds like all fluff to me. Nothing substantial from what you are talking about. 

    AI is about a large amount of data and being Apple, they have to make sure their core values of privacy is adhered to in using that data. That means not selling your data or using your data to identify you or to sell you stuff. So making sure that data is clean takes time. Do you think anything that a lot of these new products that are using AI has made takes into account your privacy? Nope. 

    Why do you think Walmart spent billions on buying Vizio? For the data, not the TVs. Your personal information is the new source of gold. 

    In order to build these things correctly, there needs to be that wall of anonymity to keep the information from identifying you directly. 

    You can’t rush AI development, unless you are throwing a ton of money to hire more data engineers and other people to build the server farms and make the data lakes. 

    There is also different types of data and different flavors of databases that don’t always work well together. That’s why companies like Dremio are trying to help get this technology  deployed faster. 

    There’s no real timeline that Apple has to adhere to other than making sure that they deliver products that will help the development of needed software for the Vision Pro.  That’s where the immediate need is, and the double edge sword of secrecy between each department.  Imagine working right next door to the building making the hardware and not knowing what they were doing and now you need to make applications for it that are up to standards. 
    The reasons why Apple hasn't delivered are neither here nor there. The point is that in all this time they haven't produced a competing product. 

    If it were no big deal Tim Cook wouldn't have said anything about AI and this year. He would have kept mum for a big reveal in June. 

    He said it because it's a massive deal. 

    They deliberately tried to avoid the term last year by making out as if AI in the guise of ML was where the action was. That is correct and there is no denying that but newer AI related advances here and there is no doubt that these new product avenues are where the action is now. 

    Now that the pressure is really on, suddenly it's 'Oh yeah, we're working on that too'. 'Just wait til WWDC' [because right now we have nothing to show for it].

    It is anything but fluff IMO. 
    The fluff is the competition’s statements. A European car manufacturer has announced AI for your car. Other companies use AI as a buzzword like B2B.

    The reason why Tim doesn’t have anything to say is, he couldn’t compress what the technology they have been working on down to something that can be explained in a sentence or two. He is deliberate in his speech and it would be very difficult for him to break down the different technologies they have into a few words that can be discussed outside of Apple’s  rules of disclosure. That’s why I believe his hints about the VP don’t even come close to the actual product. 

    You are right though, he should have kept his mouth shut like Steve used to do. 

    The only pressure right now is to keep the VP alive while creating software for it that justifies its existence and purchase. 
    tmayBart Ywatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 15
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,665member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    What frantic activity are you talking about?
    There are numerous AI products and projects that they have been working on for years. Just because it’s not a known consumer product does not mean that they haven’t been working on AI, or whatever Apple wants to call it. 

    This sounds like more of some reporter or analyst just deciding that because Apple has not made any references to AI, means they haven’t been working on anything related to the technology and were caught flat footed. 
    'seemingly' frantic. 

    Lack of any real shipping equivalent product. 

    Tim Cook going on record as 'pre-announcing' AI moves for this year. 

    Some people (with apparent insider information) here saying that Apple was basically putting the pedal to the metal to get AI baked into some products. No. Not just the ML stuff. 

    Car project shut down with claims that many employees will be transferred to AI teams.

    No one can know for sure of course but the lack of any equivalent shipping product (to what has been sucking all the news time up) is obviously telling. 

    Saying Apple has been 'doing ML for years' is saying nothing. So has everybody else.

    What markets react to is, tangible, shipping products and Apple is still to deliver where others are already advancing. 

    As things stand, WWDC will see important AI announcements. Why do you think Tim Cook put that particular piece of information into the public domain? 

    Apple went from not even wanting to utter the letters 'AI' last year to planting them straight up into this year's WWDC! That is some change of tack. 

    Once those announcements are made, what will happen? Will they start rolling out products immediately? Will they wait for this year's product refresh/iOS release? Will they be ready or released as beta? 

    September/October is still a long way off but competitors have been shipping AI related solutions for a while now and that is why we see almost daily news pieces on this or that advance and right across the technology board. Almost in parallel, we see news pieces that reflect on Apple's missing AI products. 

    We see those because they haven't been released. 

    MWC concluded just days ago and it was all about 5.5G and AI. 

    Generative AI is everywhere. It's now moving into the video realm. 

    Tiny Large Language Models are here. 

    Work on existing LLMs is advancing at an incredible pace. 

    Where has Apple been for the last two years in this area? Claiming they are working on it and always have been is saying nothing. 

    Everybody has been working on it. The difference is that all the big players except Apple have something to show for it. 

    That's why it's been in the news for what seems like forever now. 

    Sounds like all fluff to me. Nothing substantial from what you are talking about. 

    AI is about a large amount of data and being Apple, they have to make sure their core values of privacy is adhered to in using that data. That means not selling your data or using your data to identify you or to sell you stuff. So making sure that data is clean takes time. Do you think anything that a lot of these new products that are using AI has made takes into account your privacy? Nope. 

    Why do you think Walmart spent billions on buying Vizio? For the data, not the TVs. Your personal information is the new source of gold. 

    In order to build these things correctly, there needs to be that wall of anonymity to keep the information from identifying you directly. 

    You can’t rush AI development, unless you are throwing a ton of money to hire more data engineers and other people to build the server farms and make the data lakes. 

    There is also different types of data and different flavors of databases that don’t always work well together. That’s why companies like Dremio are trying to help get this technology  deployed faster. 

    There’s no real timeline that Apple has to adhere to other than making sure that they deliver products that will help the development of needed software for the Vision Pro.  That’s where the immediate need is, and the double edge sword of secrecy between each department.  Imagine working right next door to the building making the hardware and not knowing what they were doing and now you need to make applications for it that are up to standards. 
    The reasons why Apple hasn't delivered are neither here nor there. The point is that in all this time they haven't produced a competing product. 

    If it were no big deal Tim Cook wouldn't have said anything about AI and this year. He would have kept mum for a big reveal in June. 

    He said it because it's a massive deal. 

    They deliberately tried to avoid the term last year by making out as if AI in the guise of ML was where the action was. That is correct and there is no denying that but newer AI related advances here and there is no doubt that these new product avenues are where the action is now. 

    Now that the pressure is really on, suddenly it's 'Oh yeah, we're working on that too'. 'Just wait til WWDC' [because right now we have nothing to show for it].

    It is anything but fluff IMO. 
    The fluff is the competition’s statements. A European car manufacturer has announced AI for your car. Other companies use AI as a buzzword like B2B.

    The reason why Tim doesn’t have anything to say is, he couldn’t compress what the technology they have been working on down to something that can be explained in a sentence or two. He is deliberate in his speech and it would be very difficult for him to break down the different technologies they have into a few words that can be discussed outside of Apple’s  rules of disclosure. That’s why I believe his hints about the VP don’t even come close to the actual product. 

    You are right though, he should have kept his mouth shut like Steve used to do. 

    The only pressure right now is to keep the VP alive while creating software for it that justifies its existence and purchase. 
    I'd argue the complete opposite right now. 

    It's true there is a lot of buzz around AI right now and lots of solutions are piggybacking off it but that is not where the story ends. 

    There are a huge amount of real solutions already on the market with no end in sight of future uses. 

    Professional and consumer uses. 

    Solutions that have industry wide impact and are already here. 

    Huawei expanded its Pangu Models from 30+ to a 100+ last week. 

    For the car industry I wouldn't look to European manufacturers for AI. Its the Chinese who are shipping. 

    The GOD network:

    https://heyupnow.com/blogs/news/huawei-ads-2-0-launched-with-4-new-major-improvements-heyup-newsroom

    They call that 4D vision because it will be capable of 'seeing' the car in front of the one in front of you. Also handles detection in adverse weather conditions like heavy rain or snow. 

    Ports, mining, manufacturing, health, science, airports, education, fintech, data centers, self driving networks, object detection, NLU, NLG... 

    Telecoms industry only (from last week). AI keynotes all over the shop and endless solutions presented (or improved) on the show floor. 

    41 sessions dedicated to AI:

    https://www.mwcbarcelona.com/themes/ai?date=2024-02-26

    Some projects are foundational in that they are being deployed to market but require specific adaptation for final deployment. 

    I would not describe it as fluff. 







  • Reply 14 of 15
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    That is what Tim Cook is trying to do with early references to WWDC and the seemingly frantic activity within Apple to get something out the door. 
    What frantic activity are you talking about?
    There are numerous AI products and projects that they have been working on for years. Just because it’s not a known consumer product does not mean that they haven’t been working on AI, or whatever Apple wants to call it. 

    This sounds like more of some reporter or analyst just deciding that because Apple has not made any references to AI, means they haven’t been working on anything related to the technology and were caught flat footed. 
    'seemingly' frantic. 

    Lack of any real shipping equivalent product. 

    Tim Cook going on record as 'pre-announcing' AI moves for this year. 

    Some people (with apparent insider information) here saying that Apple was basically putting the pedal to the metal to get AI baked into some products. No. Not just the ML stuff. 

    Car project shut down with claims that many employees will be transferred to AI teams.

    No one can know for sure of course but the lack of any equivalent shipping product (to what has been sucking all the news time up) is obviously telling. 

    Saying Apple has been 'doing ML for years' is saying nothing. So has everybody else.

    What markets react to is, tangible, shipping products and Apple is still to deliver where others are already advancing. 

    As things stand, WWDC will see important AI announcements. Why do you think Tim Cook put that particular piece of information into the public domain? 

    Apple went from not even wanting to utter the letters 'AI' last year to planting them straight up into this year's WWDC! That is some change of tack. 

    Once those announcements are made, what will happen? Will they start rolling out products immediately? Will they wait for this year's product refresh/iOS release? Will they be ready or released as beta? 

    September/October is still a long way off but competitors have been shipping AI related solutions for a while now and that is why we see almost daily news pieces on this or that advance and right across the technology board. Almost in parallel, we see news pieces that reflect on Apple's missing AI products. 

    We see those because they haven't been released. 

    MWC concluded just days ago and it was all about 5.5G and AI. 

    Generative AI is everywhere. It's now moving into the video realm. 

    Tiny Large Language Models are here. 

    Work on existing LLMs is advancing at an incredible pace. 

    Where has Apple been for the last two years in this area? Claiming they are working on it and always have been is saying nothing. 

    Everybody has been working on it. The difference is that all the big players except Apple have something to show for it. 

    That's why it's been in the news for what seems like forever now. 

    Sounds like all fluff to me. Nothing substantial from what you are talking about. 

    AI is about a large amount of data and being Apple, they have to make sure their core values of privacy is adhered to in using that data. That means not selling your data or using your data to identify you or to sell you stuff. So making sure that data is clean takes time. Do you think anything that a lot of these new products that are using AI has made takes into account your privacy? Nope. 



    Not necessarily about a large amount of data. 

    Apple can´t have such large amounts of data on device. We are talking about tiny iPhones.
    What Apple strives for is their offline AI function on device. 
    Everything will be customized on iOS. The attractiveness of this customization is that iOS will be no longer controlled by Apple, but by you. 

    Apple has personal data. Apple can offer a customized AI service incl. healthcare. 
    OpenAI or other Open Source enterprises do not have those information. Therefore, they would not know what advices they should give you. 

    Having large data does not mean necessarily that you are unstoppable. See Alphabet with Gemini what they f*cked up. 

    But I don´t think Apple will highlight at WDCC what I mentioned above. I don´t expect too much. 

    Wedbush.... We don´t know what to expect at WDCC, but saying it will drive their sales and boost the stock price.... Speculation at finest. 

    It’s not device driven. They already use cloud based LLM in retail. The employees little devices connect to them wirelessly.

    they also use “cleansed data” when accessing databases that support Applecare. 

    All of the personal information you are talking about only resides on the customers device. Once it leaves the device, data that can identify you is scrubbed. Otherwise they would be violating their own pillar of privacy and HIPAA laws in the US. 
    Sorry. It makes no sense. Why is data scrubbed? You store them at iCloud. When you change the device (let´s say you get another iPhone), your data are still the same. 
    Of course, if you do not have enough iCloud capacities and additional data will not be saved. In that case, data are gone once you leave the device. 

    watto_cobra
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