Man, I do wish Scott was still at Apple. I would love to know what really went down. Firing someone over the issues with Maps is so damn petty — has to be something more than this. I wonder if Ive and him clashed — if that is the case, why not bring him back now since Ive is (seemingly) out of the picture?
Reports said Forstall and Ive frequently clashed over UI designs. Ive was right on this issue, Forstall wasn't.
Man, I do wish Scott was still at Apple. I would love to know what really went down. Firing someone over the issues with Maps is so damn petty — has to be something more than this. I wonder if Ive and him clashed — if that is the case, why not bring him back now since Ive is (seemingly) out of the picture?
Reports said Forstall and Ive frequently clashed over UI designs. Ive was right on this issue, Forstall wasn't.
I don’t know about that. Like with everything, a design ethos can go too far. iOS 7 had to be successively changed to become more legible, and there are still discoverability issues. iOS 6’s skeuomorphism could have been backed off to a more tasteful look just like the shifts from iOS 7 in successive releases.
UI tastes aside, it seemed that Forstall was better software manager than Federighi, and Forstall seemed more of a computer product person. As a member of Apple’s top 100 people managing the trajectory of Apple’s products, with Forstall being there and Ive not there, it would have resulted in different products.
The Watch may have come out worse? The car may have actually become a product? Apple’s Mac product line wouldn’t have spent 5 years wandering in the woods?
Man, I do wish Scott was still at Apple. I would love to know what really went down. Firing someone over the issues with Maps is so damn petty — has to be something more than this. I wonder if Ive and him clashed — if that is the case, why not bring him back now since Ive is (seemingly) out of the picture?
Reports said Forstall and Ive frequently clashed over UI designs. Ive was right on this issue, Forstall wasn't.
I don’t know about that. Like with everything, a design ethos can go too far. iOS 7 had to be successively changed to become more legible, and there are still discoverability issues. iOS 6’s skeuomorphism could have been backed off to a more tasteful look just like the shifts from iOS 7 in successive releases.
UI tastes aside, it seemed that Forstall was better software manager than Federighi, and Forstall seemed more of a computer product person. As a member of Apple’s top 100 people managing the trajectory of Apple’s products, with Forstall being there and Ive not there, it would have resulted in different products.
The Watch may have come out worse? The car may have actually become a product? Apple’s Mac product line wouldn’t have spent 5 years wandering in the woods?
Er, how does that seem to be the case? Insiders reported he was difficult to work with, in Jobs’ image, where Federighi is not unpleasant to work with. Contrary to what some may believe, emotional intelligence and ability to keep your cool are important skills for anyone on a team, especially managers.
Man, I do wish Scott was still at Apple. I would love to know what really went down. Firing someone over the issues with Maps is so damn petty — has to be something more than this. I wonder if Ive and him clashed — if that is the case, why not bring him back now since Ive is (seemingly) out of the picture?
Reports said Forstall and Ive frequently clashed over UI designs. Ive was right on this issue, Forstall wasn't.
I don’t know about that. Like with everything, a design ethos can go too far. iOS 7 had to be successively changed to become more legible, and there are still discoverability issues. iOS 6’s skeuomorphism could have been backed off to a more tasteful look just like the shifts from iOS 7 in successive releases.
UI tastes aside, it seemed that Forstall was better software manager than Federighi, and Forstall seemed more of a computer product person. As a member of Apple’s top 100 people managing the trajectory of Apple’s products, with Forstall being there and Ive not there, it would have resulted in different products.
The Watch may have come out worse? The car may have actually become a product? Apple’s Mac product line wouldn’t have spent 5 years wandering in the woods?
Er, how does that seem to be the case? Insiders reported he was difficult to work with, in Jobs’ image, where Federighi is not unpleasant to work with. Contrary to what some may believe, emotional intelligence and ability to keep your cool are important skills for anyone on a team, especially managers.
The rumors were that Forstall was difficult to work with among the C-suite. Schiller and Ive supposedly hated working with him. Forstall was well respected among his own software engineering team. Forstall knew software processes, knew how to manage it, and had some gumption.
When Cook chose Ive and Schiller over Forstall, it was a huge change in the tenor of the C-suite. I can't criticize Cook for making such a decision, especially at the time. Cook made a decision to keep the company running and productive, as Ive and Schiller were refusing to be in meetings with Forstall without Cook being there. Not sure about vice versa. However, a C-suite of yes-people is just as dangerous as a dysfunctional one. This is perhaps where you can criticize Cook as he let the design team have free rein in the company. It wasn't until 2017 they realized a lot of bad decisions were being made.
As for Federighi versus Forstall, yes, I think Forstall would be better as SVP of software. I don't think he would have let Swift be a step function change it is from Obj-C. I don't think we would have let Swift be a strict statically typed language, and he would have maintained Obj-C's dynamism in Swift. I think he would have managed software better. There were rumors a while back that build times for the macOS and iOS operating systems were stretching out to days to a week or two. That was not a good sign. Federighi may have gotten this sort of thing under control now though. I also think Forstall had better UI chops. It still mystifies me how long they are letting the bad UI experiences in iPadOS go.
Federighi is essentially managing something like 5 platforms now, and it is very likely he isn't in the weeds now, but that just means that he should be setting higher expectations for who he has in charge of the platforms.
Man, I do wish Scott was still at Apple. I would love to know what really went down. Firing someone over the issues with Maps is so damn petty — has to be something more than this. I wonder if Ive and him clashed — if that is the case, why not bring him back now since Ive is (seemingly) out of the picture?
Reports said Forstall and Ive frequently clashed over UI designs. Ive was right on this issue, Forstall wasn't.
Maybe you could say Forstall was more of a UX guy and less of a UI guy. His UI taste could have evolved, but if the reports are true, it sounds like he clashed with others — and this can be insurmountable. Sometimes time away can alter your personality and tastes for the better, so maybe he would make some great contributions today — but maybe not in a leadership role, which probably wouldn’t interest him at this point.
Comments
https://slate.com/technology/2012/11/scott-forstall-fired-skeuomorphism-the-design-concept-thats-tearing-apple-and-the-tech-world-apart.html
We definitely don't want to be getting fake stitched leather patterns back in the UI:
https://www.cultofmac.com/198844/8-design-crimes-that-jonathan-ive-should-set-right-in-ios-7-feature/
This is what it looks like now, thankfully:
Scott Forstall is 54 now and is making Broadway musicals:
https://thebroadwayproducers.com/scott-forstall-2/
When Cook chose Ive and Schiller over Forstall, it was a huge change in the tenor of the C-suite. I can't criticize Cook for making such a decision, especially at the time. Cook made a decision to keep the company running and productive, as Ive and Schiller were refusing to be in meetings with Forstall without Cook being there. Not sure about vice versa. However, a C-suite of yes-people is just as dangerous as a dysfunctional one. This is perhaps where you can criticize Cook as he let the design team have free rein in the company. It wasn't until 2017 they realized a lot of bad decisions were being made.
As for Federighi versus Forstall, yes, I think Forstall would be better as SVP of software. I don't think he would have let Swift be a step function change it is from Obj-C. I don't think we would have let Swift be a strict statically typed language, and he would have maintained Obj-C's dynamism in Swift. I think he would have managed software better. There were rumors a while back that build times for the macOS and iOS operating systems were stretching out to days to a week or two. That was not a good sign. Federighi may have gotten this sort of thing under control now though. I also think Forstall had better UI chops. It still mystifies me how long they are letting the bad UI experiences in iPadOS go.
Federighi is essentially managing something like 5 platforms now, and it is very likely he isn't in the weeds now, but that just means that he should be setting higher expectations for who he has in charge of the platforms.