HoloLens 2 swapped for Apple Vision Pro in UK spinal fusion operation

Posted:
in Apple Vision Pro

A surgical assistant in London switched from HoloLens 2 to Apple Vision Pro for an operation and described it as a groundbreaking change.

Surgeons in scrubs and masks operating with modern equipment, one wearing a head-mounted device, a tray with instruments in the foreground.
Surgery team with (left) an Apple Vision Pro (source: London Independent Hospital val the Daily Mail)



Apple has stressed the benefits of Apple Vision Pro in health care, but now surgeons at the Cromwell Hospital in London, have undertaken a spinal operation wearing Apple Vision Pro.

The surgeons themselves did not wear the headset, despite some previous reports from UK tabloid, the Daily Mail. Instead, surgical assistant and scrub nurse Suvi Verho did, using it to follow the procedure and have the correct tools ready when needed.

"It eliminates human error... it eliminates the guesswork," Verho said at the London Independent Hospital. "It gives you confidence in surgery."

While wearing the Apple Vision Pro is a first for a UK surgical unit, Verho already had experience of using a HoloLens 2 for the same kind of operation. Quoted on LinkedIn by eXeX, the maker of medical software for VR headset, she said that headsets like the HoloLens "really made [operations] more fun and enjoyable."

Nonetheless, while having praised the HoloLens 2 in 2023, Verho has now described the Apple Vision Pro as a "gamechanger" for operations. The surgeons on the team agreed, saying that meant new staff could get the benefit of more experienced ones.

"That's the idea -- that it doesn't matter if you've never been in a pitstop in your life," said surgeon Syed Aftab. "You just put the headset on."

He added that it was common for him to be assigned a new and unknown scrub nurse, and that the headset gave them ten years' worth of experience to draw on.



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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 18
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,362member
    Now that's an endorsement.
    vtvitasidricthevikingbyronlwilliamlondonbadmonkappleinsideruserlolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 18
    vtvitavtvita Posts: 26member
    We have a winner!
    sidricthevikingbyronlwilliamlondonbadmonklolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 18
    Legitimately curious how this works, given the way the Vision Pro darkens and blurs the passthrough video. I wonder if Apple has made special exceptions in the OS that allow the video to appear more clearly?
    byronlwilliamlondon
  • Reply 4 of 18
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 2,766member
    Finally. That’s great. 
    byronlwatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 18
    byronlbyronl Posts: 365member
    robgreene said:
    Legitimately curious how this works, given the way the Vision Pro darkens and blurs the passthrough video. I wonder if Apple has made special exceptions in the OS that allow the video to appear more clearly?
    the surgeon didn't wear it. an assistant did who didn't operate directly on the patient.
    williamlondongrandact73rezwitslolliverMacProwatto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 18
    thttht Posts: 5,494member
    robgreene said:
    Legitimately curious how this works, given the way the Vision Pro darkens and blurs the passthrough video. I wonder if Apple has made special exceptions in the OS that allow the video to appear more clearly?
    I'm curious too. What is the app doing? Is it just displaying a list of events for the surgical procedure? Does it auto-identify the tools? Who or how is the list of events being updated?

    The nurse isn't doing any precision work, so the quality of the pass-through is fine. This app was built for the HoloLens, and its see through qualities and AR objects were not that good. So, the app is definitely not trying to show anything small, and the quality of AVP pass-through will be perfectly fine for what the app is trying to do.

    Apple does need to iterate on the hardware and software as fast as possible. I would like to see an AVP 2 this Fall with an M3, R2, WiFi 6E, and better low light performance 12MP cameras. Just a basic "internals" update like what happened with the M3 MBA just now. Probably too much to drive down the photon-to-photon latency to 6ms, but better cameras will make the pass-through better, the M3 raytracing GPU can improve on the "reality" of virtual objects, WiFi 6E can support more virtual displays; and, offer 24 GB memory, 2 TB storage configs.

    They should also do a MS Windows virtual display if MS is willing to support.
    edited March 11 appleinsideruserradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 18
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,950member
    robgreene said:
    Legitimately curious how this works, given the way the Vision Pro darkens and blurs the passthrough video. I wonder if Apple has made special exceptions in the OS that allow the video to appear more clearly?

    Outside of a Hollywood/Broadway set/stage or Taylor Swift concert an operating room in western hospitals have as much light as you are going to get inside. :smile:  The feedback that Apple will get as time goes on is invaluable, the passthrough will get better, but any development of specialized medical support software can only happen if the developers have hands on use of an Apple Vision device now.

    https://www.steris.com/healthcare/products/surgical-lights-and-examination-lights/surgical-lights

    https://www.henryschein.com/us-en/medical/products/medical-equipment/about-medical-equipment/medical-procedure-surgical-lighting.aspx

    https://kenall.com/Home/Applications/Healthcare/Surgical-Suites
    edited March 11 tmaybadmonklolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 18
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,362member
    tht said:
    robgreene said:
    Legitimately curious how this works, given the way the Vision Pro darkens and blurs the passthrough video. I wonder if Apple has made special exceptions in the OS that allow the video to appear more clearly?
    I'm curious too. What is the app doing? Is it just displaying a list of events for the surgical procedure? Does it auto-identify the tools? Who or how is the list of events being updated?

    The nurse isn't doing any precision work, so the quality of the pass-through is fine. This app was built for the HoloLens, and its see through qualities and AR objects were not that good. So, the app is definitely not trying to show anything small, and the quality of AVP pass-through will be perfectly fine for what the app is trying to do.

    Apple does not to iterate on the hardware and software as fast as possible. I would like to see an AVP 2 this Fall with an M3, R2, WiFi 6E, and better low light performance 12MP cameras. Just a basic "internals" update like what happened with the M3 MBA just now. Probably too much to drive down the photon-to-photon latency to 6ms, but better cameras will make the pass-through better, the M3 raytracing GPU can improve on the "reality" of virtual objects, WiFi 6E can support more virtual displays; and, offer 24 GB memory, 2 TB storage configs.

    They should also do a MS Windows virtual display if MS is willing to support.
    What I got from the article, is that a nurse with zero or little experience with the HoloLens 2, would not be able to work in the surgical theater, but the same nurse would be able to use the VP version of the app and would be considered proficient to work in the surgical theater. 

    It appears as if the UI of the VP is the reason for this.
    danoxbadmonklolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 18
    There are currently a lot of procedures we do with ultrasound. The MD/PA/RN has to look back and forth at the screen and the patient. It would be incredible if we could just put on the headset and somehow get a useful image overlaid or even side by side. Might be a little disconcerting for the patient, though!
    dewmelolliverwatto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 18
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,950member
    tmay said:
    tht said:
    robgreene said:
    Legitimately curious how this works, given the way the Vision Pro darkens and blurs the passthrough video. I wonder if Apple has made special exceptions in the OS that allow the video to appear more clearly?
    I'm curious too. What is the app doing? Is it just displaying a list of events for the surgical procedure? Does it auto-identify the tools? Who or how is the list of events being updated?

    The nurse isn't doing any precision work, so the quality of the pass-through is fine. This app was built for the HoloLens, and its see through qualities and AR objects were not that good. So, the app is definitely not trying to show anything small, and the quality of AVP pass-through will be perfectly fine for what the app is trying to do.

    Apple does not to iterate on the hardware and software as fast as possible. I would like to see an AVP 2 this Fall with an M3, R2, WiFi 6E, and better low light performance 12MP cameras. Just a basic "internals" update like what happened with the M3 MBA just now. Probably too much to drive down the photon-to-photon latency to 6ms, but better cameras will make the pass-through better, the M3 raytracing GPU can improve on the "reality" of virtual objects, WiFi 6E can support more virtual displays; and, offer 24 GB memory, 2 TB storage configs.

    They should also do a MS Windows virtual display if MS is willing to support.
    What I got from the article, is that a nurse with zero or little experience with the HoloLens 2, would not be able to work in the surgical theater, but the same nurse would be able to use the VP version of the app and would be considered proficient to work in the surgical theater. 

    It appears as if the UI of the VP is the reason for this.

    Possible new software, learning and reference material coming up........With new and improved hardware/software from Apple that's how new ecosystems get built from the ground up. Iteration over time something that is beyond the capacity of the EU government.
    edited March 11 badmonklolliverradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 18
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,413member
    I can absolutely see the VP being used for live guidance for any number of intricate processes that must be performed in a precise sequence using precise tools and parts. Ideally the application would be able to discern all of the individual pieces as well as track how far the user has progressed and how the tools are being used to minimize the probability of making mistakes. For example the VP camera could capture the torque readout from the torque wrench and compare it to the assembly requirements spec. 

    There are numerous possibilities in many areas that could be enhanced significantly using the VP as an assistant, aid, quality inspector looking over your shoulder, or even just a way to get immediate feedback when you’re making changes in a part of a system that has no local means to monitor the system level impacts of your changes. Imagine walking around your home or office and being able to graphically see the WiFi signal strength in every room and corner of every room as you’re walking, step by step, and have it automatically generate a 3D layout of the space with a heat map of signal strength and interfering sources overlaid on top of the 3D model. 

    Of course the hard part of this is that someone has to develop the applications and embed all of the logic and expertise into the VP. Hopefully Apple has the staffing in place to focus on helping various industry verticals to move conceptual ideas to finished products. Within some of these domains the cost of the VP headset is very trivial compared to the cost of application development including verification and validation, and possibly certification, well beyond the level of support you get with a $99 USD Apple Developer subscription. 


    edited March 11 mobirdradarthekatHedwarewatto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 18
    macguimacgui Posts: 2,368member
    tmay said:
    What I got from the article, is that a nurse with zero or little experience with the HoloLens 2, would not be able to work in the surgical theater, but the same nurse would be able to use the VP version of the app and would be considered proficient to work in the surgical theater. 

    It appears as if the UI of the VP is the reason for this.
    What I got from the article is that a scrub nurse with little experience with any particular doctor could use the Holo Lens 2 to compensate for that making working in theatre "fun and enjoyable".

    The same nurse found using the AVP a "game changer" somehow, doing the same job. I don't see anything that implies or states that someone needs experience with the HL2 to use it and they don't with the AVP.

    The article merely states that she was already familiar with the HL2 and not that she went into theatre immediately after unboxing the AVP. It may be the UI, the hardware, or both. More details would be better.

    As with some of you, I'd like to know exactly what goggles of any brand bring to the table. Anything that makes an operation go more smoothly is a good thing for people on both ends of the scalpel.

    radarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 18
    charlesncharlesn Posts: 875member
    Yeah, it's really a shame that Vision Pro v1.0 doesn't do anything useful. It's clearly doomed. It's just a rich person's toy, right? Apple should do itself a favor and pull the plug now before more embarrassing stories like this one leak out. Spinal surgery? Meh. Who cares? Why isn't it better at gaming? 
    lolliverMacProradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 18
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,362member
    macgui said:
    tmay said:
    What I got from the article, is that a nurse with zero or little experience with the HoloLens 2, would not be able to work in the surgical theater, but the same nurse would be able to use the VP version of the app and would be considered proficient to work in the surgical theater. 

    It appears as if the UI of the VP is the reason for this.
    What I got from the article is that a scrub nurse with little experience with any particular doctor could use the Holo Lens 2 to compensate for that making working in theatre "fun and enjoyable".

    The same nurse found using the AVP a "game changer" somehow, doing the same job. I don't see anything that implies or states that someone needs experience with the HL2 to use it and they don't with the AVP.

    The article merely states that she was already familiar with the HL2 and not that she went into theatre immediately after unboxing the AVP. It may be the UI, the hardware, or both. More details would be better.

    As with some of you, I'd like to know exactly what goggles of any brand bring to the table. Anything that makes an operation go more smoothly is a good thing for people on both ends of the scalpel.

    While wearing the Apple Vision Pro is a first for a UK surgical unit, Verho already had experience of using a HoloLens 2 for the same kind of operation

    While the Verho, the nurse, doesn't explicitly state that someone needs experience with HL2, she implies that the VP is a "game changer" for novice users. 

    Why would she state that about the VP?

    We don't know the specifics, but again, implied that the VP can be used by a novice, in my opinion.


    edited March 11 lolliverradarthekatwatto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 18
    robin huberrobin huber Posts: 3,969member
    I, too, am unclear from the article just HOW Vision Pro helps. Watching a prerecorded operation video would certainly be a way of getting experience by “being there,” but the article suggests that the assistant is wearing it while assisting. Not getting it. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 18
    entropysentropys Posts: 4,192member
    I don’t know about anyone else,  but I find it tremendously comforting that the team cutting people open and applying anaesthetic find operations “fun and enjoyable”.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 18
    I do not know anything about spinal surgery, so I definitely would not know
    BUT
    Am I the only one that did not know, and finds it a bit primitive, that "guesswork" is involved in Spinal Surgery ??
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 18 of 18
    danoxdanox Posts: 2,950member
    I do not know anything about spinal surgery, so I definitely would not know
    BUT
    Am I the only one that did not know, and finds it a bit primitive, that "guesswork" is involved in Spinal Surgery ??
    Grey's Anatomy (the book) can only take you so far, in real life everyone's body is slightly different that is why it is an art form find a vein some can find it and some can't (you don't want to get the person who takes four jabs to get it right).  :smile:
    watto_cobra
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