Rick Santorum

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  • Reply 81 of 274
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    What's interesting about this Texas law that Santorum is referring to is that it specifically singles out same-sex sodomy. The Georgia law, that the Supreme Court upheld in Bowers v. Hardwick, did not refer specifically to same-sex sodomy, and that might have helped it from being overturned. It made it illegal for a woman to give a man a blowjob, for example. Damn.



    And, wow, I didn't know Hassan was gay. I mean, that's OK, of course, but, wow. That's interesting.
  • Reply 82 of 274
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,455member
    Actually Hassan posted that he was hetero. He even said it was a "disclaimer."



    He made a statement about homosexuals with regard to heterosexuals and then added at the end, of which I am one. Someone misunderstood the subject and assigned it to homosexual instead of heterosexual.



    The reason I know or care? I quoted the part of the text that happened to have the disclaimer in one of my replies.



    Nick
  • Reply 83 of 274
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,455member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by der Kopf

    I have no problem whatsoever with CONSENTING adults. These are, I think, people who are willing and able to engage in the act of having sex for NO REASON other than their mutual consent.



    So: the college money case is not consent IMHO, that is prostitution of the worse kind.

    Bestiality, you said it (unable to consent). A similar interpretation: the animal should be considered a legal minor, and therefore unable to voice his consent in this matter.



    Other than that: shag at will. I really don't care if some father and daughter decide they like each other that much that they are willing to get it on. All rules apply to them: no sex in public and shit. I just don't see why that would have to bother me.




    Why can you not give consent if money is involved? What is wrong with prostitution if it involves two consenting adults? I'm sure you would support the one night state that was just a physical release for both parties. Why does this change if the parties exchange some money at the end? I'm just asking because there are plenty of adulterous type relationships that end up involving money in some regard. Does it equal prostitution if I end up giving my adulterous partner a security deposit for her apartment? If I give her the down payment for a car? The example I cited mentioned college. However in a much more subtle context there are plenty of instances where monetary relationships happen to follow closely alongside sexual ones. How do you sort them out?



    What if the Dad hadn't wanted to pay for college, but after several go abouts decided to pay for it, "out of the goodness of his heart?"



    As for the animals, they don't have the same rights as a legal human minor. You couldn't butcher and sell by the pound a human child. You can with a cow. Since the cow is considered property why couldn't you do whatever the heck you want with it as long as it is not considered cruelty. You could even put the animal to death which you could not do with a human child.



    I don't think it is as clean cut as you care to make it.



    Nick
  • Reply 84 of 274
    toweltowel Posts: 1,479member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by BRussell

    What's interesting about this Texas law that Santorum is referring to is that it specifically singles out same-sex sodomy.



    As I understand it, that's the issue here - equal protection. If you want to outlaw sodomy, fine (or at least, constitutional), but you can't outlaw only some people's sodomy.



    Two points:

    1. Is Rick Santorum really a bigot, or just misquoted? RTFI. Unedited text of interview. Was he baited? Yeah, a little. But he said a whole lot more, and way more explicitly, than he had to. He spelled out his position real nice. If you think gay sex is OK, then you think men should be able to fvck and marry dogs.



    2. Gays have a long way to go in organizing their political voice. I mean, attack blacks and lose your job. Attack Jews, lose your job. Attacks gays...get re-elected. You can't tell me that there's THAT many more anti-gay right-wingers than anti-black and anti-jew right wingers. But not even the NYTimes is calling for Santorum's head.
  • Reply 85 of 274
    giantgiant Posts: 6,041member
    I can't answer for der kopf, but the animal situation has a few twists and turns that make it an icky topic (in multiple ways). I wonder, for instance, if it is ever not cruelty. An animal can give less consent than a child, but then again, many animals don't always seem to picky (get my parents' dog really excited and he might start humping just about anything). And it really is repulsive to many people. But what about all of the other ways folks violate animals. Sticking your arm in a cow's ass and a pole in its vagina to artificially inseminate it is standard practice, but if you get kicks off it you could go to jail. It's really a wierd one.



    But in the end it is not an act between two consenting adults.



    As for prostitution, I see no reason why it should be illegal. While there probably little chance I will ever have sex with one (in the strict sense, though I have dated gold diggers for short periods of time), past work of mine has brought me into close contact (no, not sexual contact) with quite a few. I am thoroughly convinced that if it was regulated like any other industry, it wouldn't be long before life is safer for a lot of people involved in it. Prostitution is not going away, and arresting people for it does nothing to make people's lives better.
  • Reply 86 of 274
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    Why can you not give consent if money is involved? What is wrong with prostitution if it involves two consenting adults? I'm sure you would support the one night state that was just a physical release for both parties. Why does this change if the parties exchange some money at the end? I'm just asking because there are plenty of adulterous type relationships that end up involving money in some regard. Does it equal prostitution if I end up giving my adulterous partner a security deposit for her apartment? If I give her the down payment for a car? The example I cited mentioned college. However in a much more subtle context there are plenty of instances where monetary relationships happen to follow closely alongside sexual ones. How do you sort them out?



    What if the Dad hadn't wanted to pay for college, but after several go abouts decided to pay for it, "out of the goodness of his heart?"



    As for the animals, they don't have the same rights as a legal human minor. You couldn't butcher and sell by the pound a human child. You can with a cow. Since the cow is considered property why couldn't you do whatever the heck you want with it as long as it is not considered cruelty. You could even put the animal to death which you could not do with a human child.



    I don't think it is as clean cut as you care to make it.



    Nick




    Wow. We wholly agree again. Man, we should have more conversations about people's privacy rights. They actually make me think you are sane (and probably vice versa)!
  • Reply 87 of 274
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Quote:

    No Trumptman believes it logically consistant to say that if the Supreme Court rules that due to a right to privacy, the government cannot legislate what goes on between consenting adults in their bedroom, that this ruling would apply to both homosexuality, incest, and several other acts.



    Nick [/B]



    But you must admit that the analogies he's [Santorum] drawing are certainly charged. I mean, there's a difference between his examples of what's protected under "privacy" and, for instance, if he'd said that it protects kissing children on the head and petting cute and fuzzy kittens.



    Cheers

    Scott
  • Reply 88 of 274
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Let's take this a step at a time...



    Quote:

    Originally posted by ena

    In an recent article, Rick Santorum (U.S. Senator from Pennsylvania) was quoted saying,_"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [gay] sex within your home...



    A basic lead-in for a "slippery slope" kind of argument. Not necessarily wrong, but often invalid and merely a scare tactic. The merit of a slippery slope argument depends on whether actual cause-and-effect relationships exist, and how well typically subjective risk assessments can be made more objective.



    Where, if anywhere, a Supreme Court decision about homosexuals leads depends on the nature of the particular decision, the precedents that it creates, overturns, or strengthens, and how those particulars could be applied to the particulars of other legal issues. I'm rather doubting that Mr. Santorum has publicly elaborated his case to that level of detail yet.



    Quote:

    ...then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy...



    If you're already married under current laws, then by law you've already chosen to enter a binding agreement to forego additional marriages. It's hard to see how any decision regarding homosexual relationships gets around that.



    But do new marriages have to be so limited by law? Perhaps the particulars of a Supreme court decision regarding homosexuality would have bearing here, perhaps they wouldn't.



    Merits of current law and constitutional interpretation aside, I don't see how the number of husbands or wives someone chooses to have -- or what gender they are for that matter -- is anybody else's business.



    You wrote in a latter post [b]"...the long-standing animas against homosexuality and incest is due to the fact that they are both a rebellion against a social order which identifies itself with the uniqueness of heterosexual marriage and the institutional monogamy that it represents."[b]



    Putting mustard on your fries (French or Freedom) is a rebellion against the long-standing uniqueness of the marriage between fries and ketchup. What's it to you? What right do you have to impose an obligation on other people to refrain from any relationship that doesn't serve to glorify your relationships?



    If you want your marriage to be special, make it special yourself. Create the meaning of the relationship yourself. Why legally mandate that everyone else has to live, or not live, in certain ways so that the world provides the stage setting you think you need to put your marriage in a certain light?



    Quote:

    ...you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery.



    Adultery goes back to my previous comments.



    Incest... seems to me that the laws against this can have basis, or can at least be argued to have basis, quite independent of any legal case in favor of protecting homosexuality. If the incest in question is adult/child, clearly there is a basis in protecting children from abuse. If the incest in question is adult/adult, a basis can be established -- though it certainly isn't comprehensive to all situations -- on the genetic health of any offspring.



    Of course, the real foundation of most laws regarding sexual conduct are that a bunch of people think of thing and go "Eeewww! Yuuuck!", get mad at anyone else who doesn't react the same way, and, with or without bothering to rationalize their reactions in legal terms can quite often get their emotional and religious biases codified into enforceable laws.



    Quote:

    ...You have the right to anything."



    At this point, Mr. Santorum is clearly just babbling meaningless rhetoric.
  • Reply 89 of 274
    enaena Posts: 667member
    *peeks in on catfight---carefully closes door*
  • Reply 90 of 274
    brbr Posts: 8,395member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ena

    *peeks in on catfight---carefully closes door*



    Cut this shit out. It's not a catfight. It's a discussion where people DISAGREE WITH YOU. Wow! DEAL WITH IT.
  • Reply 91 of 274
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 17,035member
    First, I have to confess to not plowing through the whole thread and reading every point.



    In short, though, I do not believe this is equatable with what Lott said. He truly was talking about legal context...essentially saying if the Supreme Court indicates that Texas cannot enforce its sodomy laws, then one can easily argue that Texas, and therefore other states cannot enforce OTHER laws, such as those pertaining to bigamy and incest. In other words, it sets a precedent indicating that as long as you are in your own home, it doesn't matter what you do...AT ALL. That's not true.



    Whether or not the gay rights crowd likes it, homsexual acts ARE equated with bigamy and incest under our laws. I'm not saying they should be, but they basically are.



    In context, I agree with his point. I do think the way he put it left a little to be desired. Then again, I hear it wasn't the most "up front" interview, so to speak.
  • Reply 92 of 274
    shetlineshetline Posts: 4,695member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    He seems quite consistant to me. He says the right to privacy was "discovered" in the constitution. Many constitutional scholars have questioned the decisions regarding abortion, not because they hate abortion, but because it created a right (privacy) that really is a logical stretch from just a reading of the constitution.



    I'd certainly feel a lot better if privacy were specifically written into the Constitution, but it isn't. We do, however, have:



    A) The Ninth Amendment



    Quote:

    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.



    If the 9th means anything at all, I think it's certainly reasonable for the courts to consider privacy one of these unenumerated rights, and to enforce that right through their decisions and the legal precedents they set.



    B) The Fifth Amendment



    Quote:

    ...nor shall any person...be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;...



    Nothing clear-cut here, but I'd say this: Privacy is certainly an aspect of liberty, and the Constitution clearly enshrines liberty as value not to be tampered with lightly.



    While again not written into the Constitution, a basic and long-standing legal principle is that the State should only interfere with individual liberties where there is a compelling public interest to do so.



    Does the State have a compelling interest in enforcing the social norms of one group, even when that groups constitutes a majority, on another? In what way does one group of people engaging in homosexual sex infringe on the ability of those who disapprove of such things from refraining from homosexual sex?



    It's important to remember that the notion of liberty means freedom even from majority opinion -- unless compelling interest can be shown, liberty trumps democracy.



    If I want to wear a red hat, but 90% of the public hates red hats and wants to pass a law against them -- tough. Unless the majority can show that I'm somehow interfering with their ability to not wear red hats, or that my red hat causes them cancer, their mere dislike of my head apparel is moot.



    "But what if my children see you wearing that hat? What are they to think? That it's okay to wear red hats!? We must protect our children!" If freedom and liberty mean anything, they have to mean that none of us should be compelled or legally restrained in our actions merely to help enforce a particular environment of opinion or social example. If you don't want your children to ever wear red hats, it's up to you to teach them as best you can by word and example. It's not up to me to protect them from any possible hint of other ways of thinking and acting for your benefit.
  • Reply 93 of 274
    Quote:

    Originally posted by trumptman

    Do I smell straw in here? You wouldn't be trying to restate my argument in a weaker manner so as to knock it down would you?



    No Trumptman believes it logically consistant to say that if the Supreme Court rules that due to a right to privacy, the government cannot legislate what goes on between consenting adults in their bedroom, that this ruling would apply to both homosexuality, incest, and several other acts.



    Nick




    Trumptman believes you can legally equate homosexuality with incest.







    That's homophobic.
  • Reply 94 of 274
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,455member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ShawnPatrickJoyce

    Trumptman believes you can legally equate homosexuality with incest.







    That's homophobic.




    Feeling a little intellectually lazy today?



    Give it up, add something to the discussion or go play in your sandbox. You aren't even making a point, just intentionally making a mischaracterization about what I believe regardless of what I have actually typed.



    Trumptman believes that when a legal decision says you can't legislate what goes on in someone's bedroom, that means all things that go on in that bedroom.



    Trumptman believes Shawn has more intellgence than he is demonstrating with weak posts like this.



    Nick
  • Reply 95 of 274
    *sigh*



    Finals Week. I'm all burned out. That's all I have.
  • Reply 96 of 274
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Towel

    As I understand it, that's the issue here - equal protection. If you want to outlaw sodomy, fine (or at least, constitutional), but you can't outlaw only some people's sodomy.



    Yeah, but the defendants do argue that the sodomy laws violate privacy, and that Bowers should be overturned. I doubt that will happen, though. My guess is that the Supreme Court will probably retain their Bowers decision that privacy doesn't include the right to engage in sodomy, but they'll say that it violates equal protection. Yay, equal rights for sodomites!



    The sad implication of that though is that some states might rewrite their laws so that ALL sodomy, even hetero, is illegal.





    BTW, in the oral arguments, the Texas guy was asked why it wasn't illegal for heterosexuals to engage in sodomy. He argued that heterosexual sodomy could lead to procreation.



    In other words, men and women should have oral and anal sex because, while they're at it, they might decide to give regular sex a try, too.

  • Reply 97 of 274
    BRussell,



    Do you know where I could read transcripts of the oral arguments?
  • Reply 98 of 274
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,455member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by shetline

    I'd certainly feel a lot better if privacy were specifically written into the Constitution, but it isn't. We do, however, have:



    A) The Ninth Amendment







    If the 9th means anything at all, I think it's certainly reasonable for the courts to consider privacy one of these unenumerated rights, and to enforce that right through their decisions and the legal precedents they set.



    B) The Fifth Amendment







    Nothing clear-cut here, but I'd say this: Privacy is certainly an aspect of liberty, and the Constitution clearly enshrines liberty as value not to be tampered with lightly.



    While again not written into the Constitution, a basic and long-standing legal principle is that the State should only interfere with individual liberties where there is a compelling public interest to do so.



    Does the State have a compelling interest in enforcing the social norms of one group, even when that groups constitutes a majority, on another? In what way does one group of people engaging in homosexual sex infringe on the ability of those who disapprove of such things from refraining from homosexual sex?



    It's important to remember that the notion of liberty means freedom even from majority opinion -- unless compelling interest can be shown, liberty trumps democracy.



    If I want to wear a red hat, but 90% of the public hates red hats and wants to pass a law against them -- tough. Unless the majority can show that I'm somehow interfering with their ability to not wear red hats, or that my red hat causes them cancer, their mere dislike of my head apparel is moot.



    "But what if my children see you wearing that hat? What are they to think? That it's okay to wear red hats!? We must protect our children!" If freedom and liberty mean anything, they have to mean that none of us should be compelled or legally restrained in our actions merely to help enforce a particular environment of opinion or social example. If you don't want your children to ever wear red hats, it's up to you to teach them as best you can by word and example. It's not up to me to protect them from any possible hint of other ways of thinking and acting for your benefit.




    I wasn't arguing against this, just saying that he was being logically consistant.



    However the libertarian side of me wonders why the right to privacy would only triumph with social agenda items and not with income. Thus if I believe that drug use is wrong, it is fine for you to have a right to privacy and do what you want with drugs. However it is also my right to keep private my income earned while not using drugs. Likewise I should not be compelled to turn over my income to support you when you destroy your life abusing drugs.



    I would say the 5th amendment here applies even more so for private property and income than for medical and sex acts.



    Nick
  • Reply 99 of 274
    midwintermidwinter Posts: 10,060member
    Quote:

    BTW, in the oral arguments, the Texas guy was asked why it wasn't illegal for heterosexuals to engage in sodomy. He argued that heterosexual sodomy could lead to procreation.



    You said oral arguments in a discussion of sodomy.



    huhuhuhuhu.
  • Reply 100 of 274
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,455member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by ShawnPatrickJoyce

    BRussell,



    Do you know where I could read transcripts of the oral arguments?




    BRussell always knows where to get good oral... (arguments)





    Nick
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