Tesla wants Apple's help to beat Autopilot death lawsuit

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 29
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,338member
    davidw said:
    Xed said:
    "the car maker believes that Autopilot is safe to use, and that it only becomes a danger when drivers are not paying attention to the road"
    Define 'auto'...?
    Would you use that simplistic answer also work for automobile? I'm guessing you wouldn't.

    On the one hand, fuck Tesla and Musk's lies about Autopilot's capabilities, but on the other, autopilot doesn't mean the driver doesn't have to be aware, present, etc. Airplanes have had autopilot for over a century and yet we're still not flying airplanes without pilots in them. Well, except for the drone category and those are controlled by a remote operator. I'm assuming that if a commercial airliner crashed and the NTSB discovered that it was because the pilot was playing games you wouldn't be defending the pilot with a comment like "define 'auto'?"

    I love all the automation I have in my car which allow for more relaxed and safer driving, but I understand that I'm still required to have situational awareness with those automated systems in place inside my automobile. Anything less is just asking to be a Darwin Award nominee.
    Turdla literally sells cars with something that they call "full self driving".

    Does that imply to you that a human driver still needs to be aware or present?

    The word "autopilot" isn't confusing to actual pilots, but it can be to the general public.  But if Cessna started selling "full self flying", I guarantee you that even a licensed pilot would expect that would be a fully automated aircraft.  I also guarantee the FAA wouldn't allow anything named that to be sold if it wasn't capable of full automation.

    And Tesla owners are not confused by the word "autopilot" (or shouldn't be), when it pertains to the car they own. It doesn't matter if the general public might be confused with the use of  word.

    Now if "autopilot" was a common feature in cars, like cruise control, then the used of the word "autopilot", might be confusing to the general public. Specially if one don't own a car with "autopilot" and were to rent or drive a friend car, that have the "autopilot" feature.

    But I'm willing to bet that not one Tesla owner is confused with the word "autopilot" and don't know the limitation of "autopilot", when they engaged it while driving their Tesla. I'm sure no where in the Tesla owner manual does it state that the car when on "autopilot", can drive from Point A to Point B without a human in the driver seat. And no Tesla owner should  think it can do this. Even if maybe you and me might think a Tesla should be able to do this because that's what "autopilot" means. 

    I'm sure Tesla is not advertising that a driver could eat their burger, soda and fries or take a nap or play a video game, while the Tesla drives itself to where you need to go, with "autopilot" engaged.  And yet there seems to be quite a few Tesla owners that think they could. These are the people that we need to be concern about, when it comes to not knowing (or caring) about the limitation of  "autopilot" in a car they own and drive. And not the general public, who might be confused with the word "autopilot" when used in both a Tesla and airplane. . 
    Perfectly stated. 
    +1
  • Reply 22 of 29
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 2,822member
    Who was at the wheel? 

    The engineer is responsible. Not the car. 

    If he was using entertainment features and distracted, then hee at fault plain and simple. Just because a new car has hee wiz features doesn’t absolve the driver of basic automotive responsibility. 
    MplsP
  • Reply 23 of 29
    Airplanes have a ‘Black Box’ —really, it is orange— to record flight data and at lest the las 30 minutes of audio… before an accident.

    It is time that… at least auto driven cars… have a ‘Black Box’ recording the car data AND  a video of the driver position and the front camera on the car.
    Maybe… just the last 30 minutes before an accident… and stored in the car and the cloud!
    ronn
  • Reply 24 of 29
    Xed said:
    "the car maker believes that Autopilot is safe to use, and that it only becomes a danger when drivers are not paying attention to the road"
    Define 'auto'...?
    Would you use that simplistic answer also work for automobile? I'm guessing you wouldn't.

    On the one hand, fuck Tesla and Musk's lies about Autopilot's capabilities, but on the other, autopilot doesn't mean the driver doesn't have to be aware, present, etc. Airplanes have had autopilot for over a century and yet we're still not flying airplanes without pilots in them. Well, except for the drone category and those are controlled by a remote operator. I'm assuming that if a commercial airliner crashed and the NTSB discovered that it was because the pilot was playing games you wouldn't be defending the pilot with a comment like "define 'auto'?"

    I love all the automation I have in my car which allow for more relaxed and safer driving, but I understand that I'm still required to have situational awareness with those automated systems in place inside my automobile. Anything less is just asking to be a Darwin Award nominee.
    Turdla literally sells cars with something that they call "full self driving".

    Does that imply to you that a human driver still needs to be aware or present?

    The word "autopilot" isn't confusing to actual pilots, but it can be to the general public.  But if Cessna started selling "full self flying", I guarantee you that even a licensed pilot would expect that would be a fully automated aircraft.  I also guarantee the FAA wouldn't allow anything named that to be sold if it wasn't capable of full automation.
    We have had full self flying systems for years, I.e. Auto-land. Even when it’s a fully functional, non-touch system, the crew will always actively monitor and be prepared to take over in case of anomalies. In aviation it’s never about the functionality, it’s always about the potential for failure. 
    That wasn't an inexperienced crew.  Would they have lived if they had been stick flying?  Dunno.  But full self flying does not exist yet, the regulators still won't even allow single-pilot operation beyond small planes no matter how much the airlines want it.

    Partial automation can be dangerous.  And that's just due to human nature, we're NOT great at taking over from the automated system in an emergency, because our brains zone out.  Years ago when I was learning to drive, one of the big things everybody was warned about was "freeway hypnosis" where you're staring ahead for hours in what feels like a very non-threatening situation, and if something goes wrong it takes much longer to put your full attention on the problem.  The recommendation was to make sure you looked around periodically to try to not let your brain partially sleep.  And that's when the only automation available in any car was cruse control - just autothrottle, no lane keep assist, no collision avoidance, no ABS, no autobrake, no traction control.

    I think the reality is that these automated steering systems that are designed to disengage when something goes wrong are a huge mistake.  It needs to be all or nothing, a system that's good enough that I can recline and take a nap, or it shouldn't take over steering AT ALL.  I'm honestly better with it in aircraft than cars, mostly because pilots are better trained than drivers, but even they screw up by relying too much on the partial automation sometimes and not being ready to take over when it gets things wrong.

    I'd love to be able to get in my car and push a go button.  But the halfass crap that Turdla is selling is not that system, and given that they're still trying to do an all-camera setup without radar or lidar, it's NEVER going to be that system.
    tmaymuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 25 of 29
    XedXed Posts: 2,653member
    Airplanes have a ‘Black Box’ —really, it is orange— to record flight data and at lest the las 30 minutes of audio… before an accident.

    It is time that… at least auto driven cars… have a ‘Black Box’ recording the car data AND  a video of the driver position and the front camera on the car.
    Maybe… just the last 30 minutes before an accident… and stored in the car and the cloud!
    That comparison doesn't work because flight records (aka Black Box) is only required under specific conditions. Perhaps most notably is there being 10 or more seats for passengers (above and beyond the cockpit. It's more complex than that but let's keep it simple. The bottom line is that you're not going to find a single flight recorder in a Cessna 172 so your statement that it should be in all automobiles because it's in some very specific airplanes is fallacious.
    Required for:
    • large 4-engined turbine-powered planes
    • large 4-engined pressurized planes
    • multiengined turbine-powered planes seating 10+ passengers
    • multiengined turbine-powered rotorcraft seating 20+ passengers
    • multiengined turbine-powered planes and rotorcraft seating 6+ passengers and requiring two pilots


    PS: Based on my reading it doesn't even  look like it would be required for a large, pressurized cargo jet with less than 4 engines.
  • Reply 26 of 29
    danoxdanox Posts: 3,033member
    Tesla meets white truck dead in the middle of the fwy...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfmAG4dk-rU Time and distance to truck incredible notice the car drove by the trucker standing next to the median.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2u3dcH2VGM
    edited April 7
  • Reply 27 of 29
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,962member
    Out of curiosity, how would people feel if the driver was using adaptive cruise control and it failed to stop for a car, leading to an accident? 

    Tesla's Autopilot (and other similar tech like Ford Blue Cruise)  is in the same category (SAE Level 2) of driver assist features as plain cruise control and adaptive cruise control meaning they are driver assist but the driver is still in control and expected to be able to take over at any time.
  • Reply 28 of 29
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,311member
    Autopilot or whatever they want to call it these days.  In airplanes, you don't have walls to run into and a million other things.  You set the jet which is on a set course either a person is flying it or on autopilot.   Lots and lots of open space.   Then you have watch towers keeping track as you get closer to the airport, you are talking to them and flying the plane.  Autopilot is off.

    On a public road, it's completely different.  Personally, if I have to keep my hand on the wheel and a lookout on everything myself and be prepared to take over in a split second like the car desires to veer off to the left or not stop for traffic, I would be stressed to hell.  I might as well just drive myself!!!  Making autopilot worthless to me.  I'll stick with your basic speed control  Keep my trck going at 65mph and not do what many do in speeding up and slowing down over and over.  So annoying following people like that.  Staying even speed going down the highway saves me money.  Better MPG using cruise control.  My hands are already on the wheel the whole time as I'm paying attention the whole time.

    I've seen examples of Tesla Full Self driving which is still a joke!!!  Until there is REAL AI (like the fake K.I.T.T. but in real life) it shouldn't be allowed on public roads.  Both my Boss with his Modem Y and my brother with his Model 3, didn't pay extra to get that garbage.

    You have a split second to get your hands onto the wheel when the car dives one way or another on you which throws your body one way or another making that hard and before you gain control, you've crashed into whatever and die.  Then Tesla is saying how it's not their fault once again.  


    ronnmuthuk_vanalingam
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