Apple could completely ditch Qualcomm's 5G modems by 2027

Posted:
in iPhone

Qualcomm's 5G iPhone modem is on the way out much faster than expected, as Apple is now projected to rapidly move to using its own version, despite previous reports of delays.

A small Qualcomm SDX60 chip held by metal tweezers against a blurred background.
A Qualcomm 5G modem



Apple bought Intel's 5G modem division for $1 billion in 2019, and at times has been said to be having difficulty, even to the extent that it was said to have abandoned its plans. More recently, however, it has been said that there will be two iPhones in 2025 which contain Apple's modem instead of Qualcomm's.

It was Kuo who reported that in July 2024. His latest report, though, projects how quickly he sees Apple replacing the Qualcomm modem.

My latest supply chain survey indicates that Apple's in-house 5G chip shipments will grow rapidly and replace Qualcomm's 5G chips. It's estimated that Apple's in-house 5G chip shipments will reach 35-40 million units in 2025, 90-110 million in 2026, and 160-180 million in 2027. https://t.co/miNhd324S9

-- (Ming-Chi Kuo) (@mingchikuo)



Kuo says this information comes from his supply chain sources, and he has a good track record for supply details.

In July, he said that the two models getting Apple's modem would be the entry-level iPhone SE 4, and the potentially high-end iPhone 17 Slim. The next iPhone SE is predicted to come in the first quarter of 2025, while the slim iPhone 17 will be announced in Apple's launch in September of the same year.

Apple's aim long been for its own technology to replace Qualcomm's, so that it has greater and exclusive control over yet more of the hardware it sells. Until Apple's model is ready, the company has been buying existing 5G modems from Qualcomm.

Most recently, it was said that Apple had bought a licence to use Qualcomm modems until at least March 2027. If Kuo is correct, though, Qualcomm will see a steep fall in its sales to Apple, as the iPhone maker is able to step up production.

The expected iPhone 17 Slim will not be released until the iPhone launch event in 2025. The September 9, 2024, "It's Glowtime" event is at least very unlikely to include the iPhone SE 4.

Rumor Score: Possible

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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 37
    It is funny… at least for me. Although this came out of my head… someone could check.

    For the last years… just the day before the launch of a new iPhone… Kuo launches a ‘news’ about the next year's cellphone!
    Now… he is getting bolder… because it ‘announces’ something for 2047.

    Long ago… some Apple Silicon Design's team said that they… ‘fixed the requirements for the design of the chip… three years in advance.’
    We are in 2024… plus 3 years… 2027!

    But it is funny how Kuo and Gurman… build up expectations… specially when there are no new news…
    muthuk_vanalingamelijahgwatto_cobra
  • Reply 2 of 37
    netroxnetrox Posts: 1,485member
    Apple is really getting rid of many third party components. Remember the initial CPU which was Samsung ARM? Gone. Apple designs them and makes them. Remember the GPU by PowerVR? Gone. Apple makes it. Remember Intel? Gone. Apple Silicon. Now, we're seeing that with 5G modem. 

    But at the same time, I can see why Apple's fed up with those competitors trying to capitalize on Apple's success with outrageous fees. 

    Qualcomm seems to be in the losing game in the long run by refusing to cooperate with an important client. 


    ssfe11danoxelijahgForumPostwatto_cobra
  • Reply 3 of 37
    Apple likely moved past the 5g minefield by developing a 6g modem and will license 5g patents for a limited time. 

    In 2027, it will be time for a new standard, with 5g having lasted  a year or more longer than 4g as the top dog. 

    Can’t wait. Tired of Qualcomm’s tech stifling innovation. 
    ssfe11danoxForumPostwatto_cobra
  • Reply 4 of 37
    Building a cellular modem is crazy-difficult.

    While the overall specifications are public, how to make them work in the real-world involves lots of very carefully-kept trade secrets. The successful vendors, especially Qualcomm, use these trade secrets instead of patents so that they don't have to disclose them publicly.

    Essentially, Apple is having to re-discover / re-invent these trade secrets internally. It's a long process driven by trial and error. It's not something you can arbitrarily schedule a completion date for. Intel sucked at this, which is why their modems generally sucked, why they never had a decently working 4G model, why they were never going to get to 5G, and why they more or less had to give away their modem division.  If Apple is planning on having a chip taped out, debugged, and in production next year that means feel they've cracked everything. Once they're started with actual production, they will probably be able to produce modems for existing and upgraded standards at a reasonably fast pace. 

    An interesting revenge move for Apple would be to publish everything they've learned about building cellular modems (all of the industry trade secrets). This would nuke Qualcomm's balance sheet as cheap competitors would spring up all over the place. Qualcomm would still control the bleeding edge in the short term, but if it creates an inability to over-license their patent portfolio (they force customers to license patents they're not using and are widely considered exploitative in their licensing practices for their chipsets) it will cut hard into their earnings.
    edited September 6 elijahgForumPostackpfftrundhvidwatto_cobra
  • Reply 5 of 37
    Apple will not only have control but most likely will save a fortune using its in house modems.
    9secondkox2watto_cobra
  • Reply 6 of 37
    XedXed Posts: 2,823member
    It is funny… at least for me. Although this came out of my head… someone could check.

    For the last years… just the day before the launch of a new iPhone… Kuo launches a ‘news’ about the next year's cellphone!
    Now… he is getting bolder… because it ‘announces’ something for 2047.

    Long ago… some Apple Silicon Design's team said that they… ‘fixed the requirements for the design of the chip… three years in advance.’
    We are in 2024… plus 3 years… 2027!

    But it is funny how Kuo and Gurman… build up expectations… specially when there are no new news…
    I'd argue that he's getting less bold if he's making a claim so far out that even Apple, assuming Kuo has sources and they're legit, knows if they will or won't be able to produce working modems for a 2027 release. In other words, it's bold to make very specific claims right before a release but to claim something years away means he has a lot of wiggle room to say that Apple canned this or changed direction on that as dates approach.
    dewmewatto_cobra
  • Reply 7 of 37
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,123member
    When Qualcomm tried to base their "licensing" fees by basing it off the price of the final produce (i.e. "iPhone") instead of just selling their chips, that was the day Qualcomm's future was in peril.  Sheer greed.  Now, Qualcomm will be eating scraps from bit-players.
    danoxelijahgForumPost9secondkox2watto_cobra
  • Reply 8 of 37
    netrox said:
    Apple is really getting rid of many third party components. Remember the initial CPU which was Samsung ARM? Gone. Apple designs them and makes them. Remember the GPU by PowerVR? Gone. Apple makes it. Remember Intel? Gone. Apple Silicon. Now, we're seeing that with 5G modem. 

    But at the same time, I can see why Apple's fed up with those competitors trying to capitalize on Apple's success with outrageous fees. 

    Qualcomm seems to be in the losing game in the long run by refusing to cooperate with an important client. 



    Control their own destiny. That's Apple's mission. Back in the PowerPC days, Apple kept promising to get to 3GHz Macs, but kept missing deadlines, so that's why they eventually switched to Intel. The Motorola PowerPC platform, of which Apple was a partner, was just not delivering on the performance-per-watt promises.

    But is going all in-house a smart choice in the long run? It's working well for Apple now, but there's so much back-pressure building against proprietary platforms.

    Let's hope that they are future-focused on 6G and beyond. Leapfrog the industry llike they did with Apple Silicon.
    ForumPostwatto_cobra
  • Reply 9 of 37
    danoxdanox Posts: 3,294member
    ecarlseen said:
    Building a cellular modem is crazy-difficult.

    While the overall specifications are public, how to make them work in the real-world involves lots of very carefully-kept trade secrets. The successful vendors, especially Qualcomm, use these trade secrets instead of patents so that they don't have to disclose them publicly.

    Essentially, Apple is having to re-discover / re-invent these trade secrets internally. It's a long process driven by trial and error. It's not something you can arbitrarily schedule a completion date for. Intel sucked at this, which is why their modems generally sucked, why they never had a decently working 4G model, why they were never going to get to 5G, and why they more or less had to give away their modem division.  If Apple is planning on having a chip taped out, debugged, and in production next year that means feel they've cracked everything. Once they're started with actual production, they will probably be able to produce modems for existing and upgraded standards at a reasonably fast pace. 

    An interesting revenge move for Apple would be to publish everything they've learned about building cellular modems (all of the industry trade secrets). This would nuke Qualcomm's balance sheet as cheap competitors would spring up all over the place. Qualcomm would still control the bleeding edge in the short term, but if it creates an inability to over-license their patent portfolio (they force customers to license patents they're not using and are widely considered exploitative in their licensing practices for their chipsets) it will cut hard into their earnings.

    A few years ago, could you imagine Apple giving Intel the bums rush, most of the tech industry and most of the tech forums (some Appleinsider participants too) said Apple should stick with Intel the Golden Child they would be utterly lost without them or Microsoft compatibility.

    Apple probably wants to build new devices incorporating a modem (their modem), and Apple can’t do that unless they have their own Apple Vision almost assuredly would’ve had an Apple modem in it. If it was ready, Shrinking the Apple Vision to the size of a pair glasses (which critics cry about) can’t happen without an Apple modem inside it at least not in the way Apple would want to design it?

    How long did it take Apple beginning to end to replace Intel CPU’S about 12 years? P.A. Semi  Acquired in 2008, M1 Mac released in 2020.
    edited September 6 watto_cobra
  • Reply 10 of 37
    thttht Posts: 5,619member
    Apple likely moved past the 5g minefield by developing a 6g modem and will license 5g patents for a limited time. 

    In 2027, it will be time for a new standard, with 5g having lasted  a year or more longer than 4g as the top dog. 

    Can’t wait. Tired of Qualcomm’s tech stifling innovation. 
    Kuo is directly saying “5G” modems, and, isn’t 6G still 5 to 10 years out? Then, is there anything interesting with 6G at 500 MHz to 5 GHz frequencies?

    For me, I’d like to see more power efficient wireless connections and ubiquitous coverage. Bandwidth isn’t a big feature anymore. So, if Apple can produce highly efficient 5G modems that supports networks everywhere, that’s good enough. 
    ForumPostdewmewatto_cobra
  • Reply 11 of 37
    XedXed Posts: 2,823member
    tht said:
    Apple likely moved past the 5g minefield by developing a 6g modem and will license 5g patents for a limited time. 

    In 2027, it will be time for a new standard, with 5g having lasted  a year or more longer than 4g as the top dog. 

    Can’t wait. Tired of Qualcomm’s tech stifling innovation. 
    Kuo is directly saying “5G” modems, and, isn’t 6G still 5 to 10 years out? Then, is there anything interesting with 6G at 500 MHz to 5 GHz frequencies?

    For me, I’d like to see more power efficient wireless connections and ubiquitous coverage. Bandwidth isn’t a big feature anymore. So, if Apple can produce highly efficient 5G modems that supports networks everywhere, that’s good enough. 
    5G makes sense. Apple bought all those Nortel 5G patents. It's the 4G that they probably have the biggest gap in terms of efficiency in design and highest licensing fees with Qualcomm.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 12 of 37
    mattinozmattinoz Posts: 2,449member
    ecarlseen said:
    Building a cellular modem is crazy-difficult.

    While the overall specifications are public, how to make them work in the real-world involves lots of very carefully-kept trade secrets. The successful vendors, especially Qualcomm, use these trade secrets instead of patents so that they don't have to disclose them publicly.

    Essentially, Apple is having to re-discover / re-invent these trade secrets internally. It's a long process driven by trial and error. It's not something you can arbitrarily schedule a completion date for. Intel sucked at this, which is why their modems generally sucked, why they never had a decently working 4G model, why they were never going to get to 5G, and why they more or less had to give away their modem division.  If Apple is planning on having a chip taped out, debugged, and in production next year that means feel they've cracked everything. Once they're started with actual production, they will probably be able to produce modems for existing and upgraded standards at a reasonably fast pace. 

    An interesting revenge move for Apple would be to publish everything they've learned about building cellular modems (all of the industry trade secrets). This would nuke Qualcomm's balance sheet as cheap competitors would spring up all over the place. Qualcomm would still control the bleeding edge in the short term, but if it creates an inability to over-license their patent portfolio (they force customers to license patents they're not using and are widely considered exploitative in their licensing practices for their chipsets) it will cut hard into their earnings.
    The point of a standard is to allow broad reliable adoption by publishing the requirments. If true, then 5G isn't a standard it's a cabal.

    Yes, Apple should do something to make the traditional suppliers admit publically they were dicking around with the standard in order to protect a monopoly position.

    ForumPostecarlseenwatto_cobra
  • Reply 13 of 37
    Or it could happen in 2028, 2029, 2030 etc. 
    thtnubuswatto_cobra
  • Reply 14 of 37
    YP101YP101 Posts: 172member
    If Apple can pull off 5G modem than we will see new era of Apple products. All Apple products will have 4/5G modem in it.
    No longer need sim card. All products will be control by e-sim.
    Finally, we may see iPad and Mac line up without Wi-Fi only.

    watto_cobra
  • Reply 15 of 37
    XedXed Posts: 2,823member
    YP101 said:
    If Apple can pull off 5G modem than we will see new era of Apple products. All Apple products will have 4/5G modem in it.
    No longer need sim card. All products will be control by e-sim.
    Finally, we may see iPad and Mac line up without Wi-Fi only.
    Do you really want the expense of paying for a cellular modem in every device? I don’t, especially when have had easy tethering to an iPhone for such a long time that I can’t tell you how long it’s been since that feature was added to macOS. 10 years? 15 years? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

    (Written from my Mac tethered to my iPhone)
    muthuk_vanalingamwatto_cobra
  • Reply 16 of 37
    mattinoz said:

    The point of a standard is to allow broad reliable adoption by publishing the requirments. If true, then 5G isn't a standard it's a cabal.

    Yes, Apple should do something to make the traditional suppliers admit publically they were dicking around with the standard in order to protect a monopoly position.

    Publicly admit they're a cabal? Are you kidding? They're openly quite proud of it.

    mattinozdanoxwatto_cobra
  • Reply 17 of 37
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 4,006member
    Xed said:
    YP101 said:
    If Apple can pull off 5G modem than we will see new era of Apple products. All Apple products will have 4/5G modem in it.
    No longer need sim card. All products will be control by e-sim.
    Finally, we may see iPad and Mac line up without Wi-Fi only.
    Do you really want the expense of paying for a cellular modem in every device? I don’t, especially when have had easy tethering to an iPhone for such a long time that I can’t tell you how long it’s been since that feature was added to macOS. 10 years? 15 years? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

    (Written from my Mac tethered to my iPhone)
    If Apple is making its own 5G modems then the incremental cost would likely be minimal. The bigger cost would be paying for a cellular service plan for the device. Unless it’s a corporate device or a device you routinely need to use on 5G tethering is going to be the far better (and cheaper) option. 

    I always laugh when I see these stories. Qualcomm has abused their monopoly for years but they are the clear leader when it comes to 5G modems, so any modem that Apple or anyone else produces needs to be competitive both in price and performance. Intel couldn’t do it and people have been predicting for years that Apple would but we’ve yet to see anything at all. I’d love to see Apple succeed but Kuo and everyone else’s predictions are meaningless. Just show me a device. 
    dewmewatto_cobra
  • Reply 18 of 37
    ssfe11 said:
    Apple will not only have control but most likely will save a fortune using its in house modems.
    Not to mention being the primary patent holder of the new standard. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 19 of 37
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,976member
    ssfe11 said:
    Apple will not only have control but most likely will save a fortune using its in house modems.
    Not to mention being the primary patent holder of the new standard. 
    I wonder where Apple is on that front. 

    In listings up to 2022, Apple hadn't made the top 20 major patent holder list for 6G. That was led by Intel, Samsung, IBM and Huawei. 
  • Reply 20 of 37
    tht said:
    Apple likely moved past the 5g minefield by developing a 6g modem and will license 5g patents for a limited time. 

    In 2027, it will be time for a new standard, with 5g having lasted  a year or more longer than 4g as the top dog. 

    Can’t wait. Tired of Qualcomm’s tech stifling innovation. 
    Kuo is directly saying “5G” modems, and, isn’t 6G still 5 to 10 years out? Then, is there anything interesting with 6G at 500 MHz to 5 GHz frequencies?

    For me, I’d like to see more power efficient wireless connections and ubiquitous coverage. Bandwidth isn’t a big feature anymore. So, if Apple can produce highly efficient 5G modems that supports networks everywhere, that’s good enough. 
    That’s because he has no other info and apple WAS working on 5g before deciding the patents they bought weren’t doing them any favors. 

    Working on developing an all new 5g modem at this point is foolish. That’s not a word to describe apple. Outside of rare misses like the AVP, They’re always looking ahead. “Skating to where the puck will be, not where it has been.” 

    Qualcomm has the upper hand with 5g. Apple is moving past them. It’s nearly time for a superior standard anyway. The company that gave us the true personal computer, mainstream GUI, the mouse, airdrop, FireWire, thunderbolt, the smartphone as we know it today, numerous video standards, the first trackpad laptop, the first multitouch mouse with 360 scroll, was integral to the birth of WiFi, mini DisplayPort, Unicode, TrueType, openCL, HLS live streaming, upended the CPU and GPU industries with its own powerful yet efficient silicon, and much more - and is renown for eliminating old, archaic tech that holds the industries back, and makes the most reliable products in the industries it operates in. THIS company? Yeah, they’ll do fine front-running a new, superior communications chip as the standard for the following decade or so. 

    No, 6g isn’t 10 years out. By 2027, 5g will have been the top standard longer than 4g was. If anything, 5g has been the top tier too long. The rate of technology improvement should increase, not decrease, and Apple is a company known for pushing the envelope - and sometimes just tearing the envelope up and making a better one. 

    Last but not least, you seem to remember that “good enough” is not in Apples vocabulary. They’re more about “insanely great” achievements. 
    edited September 7 lowededwookiedanoxwatto_cobra
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