Higher than current prices are completely unacceptable. The 970 is not an excuse to get even more absurd with desktop pricing. It will by most accounts return parity, not put Apple leaps and bounds ahead.
Current prices MUST be maintained and LOWERED eventually.
single, dual, dual. All 970's, based on available speeds. Current prices.
Anything less will not fix Apple's price performance problems in the pro desktop space.
By the way, your poll is hyper. 1.8 to 2.4? The option I want, and is most reasonable, is not listed.
I think the 970 will debut at 1.4, 1.6 and 1.8 GHz in a variation of single and dual processor configurations.
I can't vote either as my option is avialble. 1.4ghz & 1.8ghz. I agree with the exception of the 1.6ghz. That hasn't been mentioned and also I think I read that it might not be possible at that speed with the bus multiplier or something.
Higher than current prices are completely unacceptable. The 970 is not an excuse to get even more absurd with desktop pricing. It will by most accounts return parity, not put Apple leaps and bounds ahead.
Current prices MUST be maintained and LOWERED eventually.
single, dual, dual. All 970's, based on available speeds. Current prices.
Anything less will not fix Apple's price performance problems in the pro desktop space.
I have to agree with you on this Matsu. At the low end the current price ($1499) is about max that Apple can charge for an "entry level" tower, and for this money you can get quite a good deal on the PC side. Compared to most offerings in this price-range the current "Fast" offering from Apple is both underpowered and overpriced - while still being a fine computer for most purposes though. If they introduce a 1.4ghz 970 at $1499 with a decent gfx-card, sata ++, more ram and bigger hd, they can finally compete head to head with Dell in the price range.
Example: Dell Dimension 8250, P4 2.40 533mhz fsb), 256 pc1066 ram, kb + mouse, w/o monitor, GF4 MX 64, 60gb, CD/RW + DVD including Roxios Easy CD Creator, no floppy, 56k, 10/100 ether, live 5.1 digital, speakers, WP productivity pack, McAfee, Dell Picture Studio, XP-pro, 6 Months of America Online Membership Included - Price: $1366.
(OK, you can probably find better deals than this but anyway..)
This will compare pretty well to a 1.4 ghz 970 if they can keep the current price and maybe increase ram and HD size. So you will have to pay about $100 more for the powermac with about the same specs. Not to bad.
I have only discussed the entry level powermac here, and have done that because I think it's important that Apple has a decent powered computer tower in this price range. Many possible switchers don't want to buy the iMac because they want larger screens, better video card and a more future-proof computer. I still think an entry level cube-ish midi-tower could help boost Apples marketshear.
That would be ideal if they got it right. I don't think that Quad Xeon Processor offerings on the PC offer much of a boost over Duals. I don't know exactly what, and where performance increases are with Quads vs. Duals, but I don't think that it's worth the price for the Mobo, and another 2 Xeon's.
If Apples Motherboard had a second insertion for an additional Dual 970 card to be added (or not) at our discretion when there were available processors in enough abundance that Apple could sell at their store at a later date I would go for that, but I think it's highly unlikely.
Dimension 4550 2.53GHz 256MB 30GB $399 at Dell Business
Last day. Choose Desktops >Dimension >Dimension 4550 Featured Systems >Configure $399 system: Choose free 256MB DDR, free 16x DVD or 48x CDRW Upgrade, Free ISP. Your total is then $599 - $200 rebate [Exp 4/30] = $399 with free shipping.
Pentium-4 2.53GHz, 256MB DDR, 30GB, Dell KB/Mouse, 16x DVD or 48x CDRW
Which only re-enforces what I've been saying about powermac prices.
If Apple wants to build a monster quad machine and charge $5000US or more for it, fine, but the single and dual configs need to get faster and cheaper simultaneously. Any increase in price will be as good as a speed drop on the CPU front, both things that Apple happens to be familiar with
I can't vote either as my option is avialble. 1.4ghz & 1.8ghz. I agree with the exception of the 1.6ghz. That hasn't been mentioned and also I think I read that it might not be possible at that speed with the bus multiplier or something.
My understanding is that thre is no bus multiplier, that the bus is based on the processor frequency. So at 1.8GHz, it is 450MHz (900 double pumped). At 1.4, we got outselves a 350MHz bus (700MHz double pumped). And 1.6 would be 400MHz (800MHz double pumped). So 1.6 could very much be possible. Weather it is produced is another story.
So forgot about how things worked in the past with MaxBus, things will be totally differnt in the future.
And can you imagine a 2.4 GHz 970 with a 600MHz real bus (1.2 GHz double pumped!!).
Example: Dell Dimension 8250, P4 2.40 533mhz fsb), 256 pc1066 ram, kb + mouse, w/o monitor, GF4 MX 64, 60gb, CD/RW + DVD including Roxios Easy CD Creator, no floppy, 56k, 10/100 ether, live 5.1 digital, speakers, WP productivity pack, McAfee, Dell Picture Studio, XP-pro, 6 Months of America Online Membership Included - Price: $1366.
(OK, you can probably find better deals than this but anyway..)
You're correct. Apple's system specs/price alway should be compared to Tier 1 companies. Tier 2 companies will always be able to offer much lower prices for the same box. Of course, compatability and reliability for Tier 2 boxes is always questionable, never mind customer service.
BTW - this is my very first post. I switched in '99 when I bought a Rev. A B&W G3 and I'm STILL a loyal Mac fan. If we were still stuck at 500MHz, I'd stay on this platform...and I'm the creative director for a Tier 2 PC manufacturer! javascript:smilie('')
What's the overall user experience like on that machine?
The OS X experience might be worth four times the cost on inferior hardware to you, but certainly not to me and not to 98% of the world. Now, I'm willing to pay a 20-30% premium for Apple's machines if they achieve parity with x86 offerings, but certainly not a 200-400% premium for inferior technology.
The PPC970 Mac might be the first Mac in the long time to achieve performance parity with x86 offerings. Let's just hope Apple makes it affordable or I don't think I'll be able to come back to the Mac anytime soon.
Now, I'm willing to pay a 20-30% premium for Apple's machines if they achieve parity with x86 offerings, but certainly not a 200-400% premium for inferior technology.
Dell Dimension 8250, P4 2.40 .... Price: $1366.
Dell Dimension 4550 2.53GHz .... Price: $399.
Apple will _never_ be able to compete with _every_ product from Dell. (Nor will Compaq, Gateway, or anyone else.) It's a simple size issue. Dell competes with Dell.
Now, Apple can make a powerful 970-based computer that will compete well with that $1366 computer - and I think they will.
Apple's model isn't going to work near $399. Ever. But there's a _reason_ one of those Dells is $400, and one is $1400. It can be summed up as "You get what you pay for". No one is blasting _Dell_ for offering a $1400 computer - 350% markup for inferior tech! So anyone comparing markups versus the cheapest Dell you can find -> 400% markup.
But that _same_ $1600 computer has a markup of 17% compared to the other Dell.
Price comparisons are always nuts. Yes, Apple needs more performance, and a better price/performance.
Apple will _never_ be able to compete with _every_ product from Dell. (Nor will Compaq, Gateway, or anyone else.) It's a simple size issue. Dell competes with Dell.
Now, Apple can make a powerful 970-based computer that will compete well with that $1366 computer - and I think they will.
Apple's model isn't going to work near $399. Ever. But there's a _reason_ one of those Dells is $400, and one is $1400. It can be summed up as "You get what you pay for". No one is blasting _Dell_ for offering a $1400 computer - 350% markup for inferior tech! So anyone comparing markups versus the cheapest Dell you can find -> 400% markup.
But that _same_ $1600 computer has a markup of 17% compared to the other Dell.
Dimension 8250 2.4GHz 256MB 120GB $544 at Dell Home
Choose Desktops >Dimension 8250 Recommended $1029 System: 2.4GHz, Free 256MB RDRAM, Free 120GB, Free 2nd 48x24x48 CDRW, No Monitor, HK-206 Speakers, 1-yr Warranty. Total is then $869 - $75 coupon 2E6B9885FEC [Exp 4/29] - $250 rebate = $544 with free shipping.
The only reason the 8250 is more expensive is that it uses RDRAM and is slightly more expandable. If you're implying that the 4550 has lower quality components than Apple or other Dell products, you're wrong.
The OS X experience might be worth four times the cost on inferior hardware to you, but certainly not to me and not to 98% of the world. Now, I'm willing to pay a 20-30% premium for Apple's machines if they achieve parity with x86 offerings, but certainly not a 200-400% premium for inferior technology.
The PPC970 Mac might be the first Mac in the long time to achieve performance parity with x86 offerings. Let's just hope Apple makes it affordable or I don't think I'll be able to come back to the Mac anytime soon.
obvious you're willing to pay for inferior technology: microsoft windows. the "windows" experience looks pretty inferior to me, and you pay hundreds of dollars to have that on your desk now that's a waste of money.
if 98% of the people say 2+2=5 that doesn't mean they are right. think for yourself. if people are that stupid you don't even want to be associated with them.
but on topic now: i think there is a possibility of a 4 model line up:
single 1.4Ghz, single 1.8Ghz, dual 1.8Ghz and a ultimate dual 2.4Ghz for the render and editing boys. (don't pin me down on the highest-end clockspeed it also could be 2.2Ghz)
Is there any possibility at all that we could have at least one thread in this forum not devolve into this argument? It's not without merit, but it's not topical in this thread either.
I can assure everyone here that Dell's pricing structure has nothing to do with the clock speeds the 970 will be able to acheive initially.
I voted 1.2-1.8 GHz, dual processors on 1 or 2 expensive configurations.
If Apple releases a config. that begins with 2.x GHz, things begin to look good. If they go all out and release a quad as well, then things look very bright, gotta wear shades. 8)
obvious you're willing to pay for inferior technology: microsoft windows. the "windows" experience looks pretty inferior to me.
but on topic now: i think there is a possibility of a 4 model line up:
single 1.4Ghz, single 1.8Ghz, dual 1.8Ghz and a ultimate dual 2.4Ghz for the render and editing boys. (don't pin me down on the highest-end clockspeed it also could be 2.2Ghz)
That actually sounds like a reasonable answer to poor PowerMac sales. And, I would gladly buy that high-end model if the motherboard features are going to be there.
FireWire 800 { this will be there obviously.
USB 2.0 {would be nice
Serial ATA {PC's have it
DDR 3400 { would impress the sh*t out of me.
I know I'm forgetting stuff, but Apple has had forever to design this bad boy we have all been b*tching about not having for 3 years.
The debut of the nForce 3 on this motherboard would be nice, and would shut everybody up.
I think your Speeds and configurations could happen, but I still worry about the little things.
I also think Apple would not have to charge an arm, and a leg for the configurations with what I listed either due to the fact that they would sell like no Mac ever has. That configuration is the ultimate SWITCHER machine. Nobody could turn away from them. In addition they would bring developers in droves.
Comments
Is that asking to much...?!?
;^p
Current prices MUST be maintained and LOWERED eventually.
single, dual, dual. All 970's, based on available speeds. Current prices.
Anything less will not fix Apple's price performance problems in the pro desktop space.
Originally posted by DHagan4755
By the way, your poll is hyper. 1.8 to 2.4? The option I want, and is most reasonable, is not listed.
I think the 970 will debut at 1.4, 1.6 and 1.8 GHz in a variation of single and dual processor configurations.
I can't vote either as my option is avialble. 1.4ghz & 1.8ghz. I agree with the exception of the 1.6ghz. That hasn't been mentioned and also I think I read that it might not be possible at that speed with the bus multiplier or something.
Originally posted by Matsu
Higher than current prices are completely unacceptable. The 970 is not an excuse to get even more absurd with desktop pricing. It will by most accounts return parity, not put Apple leaps and bounds ahead.
Current prices MUST be maintained and LOWERED eventually.
single, dual, dual. All 970's, based on available speeds. Current prices.
Anything less will not fix Apple's price performance problems in the pro desktop space.
I have to agree with you on this Matsu. At the low end the current price ($1499) is about max that Apple can charge for an "entry level" tower, and for this money you can get quite a good deal on the PC side. Compared to most offerings in this price-range the current "Fast" offering from Apple is both underpowered and overpriced - while still being a fine computer for most purposes though. If they introduce a 1.4ghz 970 at $1499 with a decent gfx-card, sata ++, more ram and bigger hd, they can finally compete head to head with Dell in the price range.
Example: Dell Dimension 8250, P4 2.40 533mhz fsb), 256 pc1066 ram, kb + mouse, w/o monitor, GF4 MX 64, 60gb, CD/RW + DVD including Roxios Easy CD Creator, no floppy, 56k, 10/100 ether, live 5.1 digital, speakers, WP productivity pack, McAfee, Dell Picture Studio, XP-pro, 6 Months of America Online Membership Included - Price: $1366.
(OK, you can probably find better deals than this but anyway..)
This will compare pretty well to a 1.4 ghz 970 if they can keep the current price and maybe increase ram and HD size. So you will have to pay about $100 more for the powermac with about the same specs. Not to bad.
I have only discussed the entry level powermac here, and have done that because I think it's important that Apple has a decent powered computer tower in this price range. Many possible switchers don't want to buy the iMac because they want larger screens, better video card and a more future-proof computer. I still think an entry level cube-ish midi-tower could help boost Apples marketshear.
Originally posted by MacRonin
QUADS!!! WE WANT QUADS, DAMNIT!!!
That would be ideal if they got it right. I don't think that Quad Xeon Processor offerings on the PC offer much of a boost over Duals. I don't know exactly what, and where performance increases are with Quads vs. Duals, but I don't think that it's worth the price for the Mobo, and another 2 Xeon's.
If Apples Motherboard had a second insertion for an additional Dual 970 card to be added (or not) at our discretion when there were available processors in enough abundance that Apple could sell at their store at a later date I would go for that, but I think it's highly unlikely.
Originally posted by NETROMac
Example: Dell Dimension 8250, P4 2.40 533mhz fsb), 256 pc1066 ram, kb + mouse, w/o monitor, GF4 MX 64, 60gb, CD/RW + DVD including Roxios Easy CD Creator, no floppy, 56k, 10/100 ether, live 5.1 digital, speakers, WP productivity pack, McAfee, Dell Picture Studio, XP-pro, 6 Months of America Online Membership Included - Price: $1366.
(OK, you can probably find better deals than this but anyway..)
That's quite an aweful deal for a PC. Look here.
Dimension 4550 2.53GHz 256MB 30GB $399 at Dell Business
Last day. Choose Desktops >Dimension >Dimension 4550 Featured Systems >Configure $399 system: Choose free 256MB DDR, free 16x DVD or 48x CDRW Upgrade, Free ISP. Your total is then $599 - $200 rebate [Exp 4/30] = $399 with free shipping.
Pentium-4 2.53GHz, 256MB DDR, 30GB, Dell KB/Mouse, 16x DVD or 48x CDRW
32MB Rage Video, Free ISP, 10/100 NIC, 1-year Warranty
Upgrades? 2.66GHz +$20, 64MB DDR GeForce 4 MX +$30, 512MB DDR +60 , +$80 for DVD writer
If Apple wants to build a monster quad machine and charge $5000US or more for it, fine, but the single and dual configs need to get faster and cheaper simultaneously. Any increase in price will be as good as a speed drop on the CPU front, both things that Apple happens to be familiar with
Originally posted by KidRed
I can't vote either as my option is avialble. 1.4ghz & 1.8ghz. I agree with the exception of the 1.6ghz. That hasn't been mentioned and also I think I read that it might not be possible at that speed with the bus multiplier or something.
My understanding is that thre is no bus multiplier, that the bus is based on the processor frequency. So at 1.8GHz, it is 450MHz (900 double pumped). At 1.4, we got outselves a 350MHz bus (700MHz double pumped). And 1.6 would be 400MHz (800MHz double pumped). So 1.6 could very much be possible. Weather it is produced is another story.
So forgot about how things worked in the past with MaxBus, things will be totally differnt in the future.
And can you imagine a 2.4 GHz 970 with a 600MHz real bus (1.2 GHz double pumped!!).
Oh yeah, and the coolness factor (figuratively, not literally...)
;^p
Originally posted by NETROMac
Example: Dell Dimension 8250, P4 2.40 533mhz fsb), 256 pc1066 ram, kb + mouse, w/o monitor, GF4 MX 64, 60gb, CD/RW + DVD including Roxios Easy CD Creator, no floppy, 56k, 10/100 ether, live 5.1 digital, speakers, WP productivity pack, McAfee, Dell Picture Studio, XP-pro, 6 Months of America Online Membership Included - Price: $1366.
(OK, you can probably find better deals than this but anyway..)
You're correct. Apple's system specs/price alway should be compared to Tier 1 companies. Tier 2 companies will always be able to offer much lower prices for the same box. Of course, compatability and reliability for Tier 2 boxes is always questionable, never mind customer service.
BTW - this is my very first post. I switched in '99 when I bought a Rev. A B&W G3 and I'm STILL a loyal Mac fan. If we were still stuck at 500MHz, I'd stay on this platform...and I'm the creative director for a Tier 2 PC manufacturer! javascript:smilie('
Originally posted by MacRonin
Quads, as is two CPUs to run OS X & Maya/Shake; while the other two CPUs crunch on frames...
Oh yeah, and the coolness factor (figuratively, not literally...)
;^p
Now your talking my language!
What's the overall user experience like on that machine?
Originally posted by keyboardf12
How fast does the "Dimension 4550" run OSX?
What's the overall user experience like on that machine?
The OS X experience might be worth four times the cost on inferior hardware to you, but certainly not to me and not to 98% of the world. Now, I'm willing to pay a 20-30% premium for Apple's machines if they achieve parity with x86 offerings, but certainly not a 200-400% premium for inferior technology.
The PPC970 Mac might be the first Mac in the long time to achieve performance parity with x86 offerings. Let's just hope Apple makes it affordable or I don't think I'll be able to come back to the Mac anytime soon.
Originally posted by Existence
Now, I'm willing to pay a 20-30% premium for Apple's machines if they achieve parity with x86 offerings, but certainly not a 200-400% premium for inferior technology.
Dell Dimension 8250, P4 2.40 .... Price: $1366.
Dell Dimension 4550 2.53GHz .... Price: $399.
Apple will _never_ be able to compete with _every_ product from Dell. (Nor will Compaq, Gateway, or anyone else.) It's a simple size issue. Dell competes with Dell.
Now, Apple can make a powerful 970-based computer that will compete well with that $1366 computer - and I think they will.
Apple's model isn't going to work near $399. Ever. But there's a _reason_ one of those Dells is $400, and one is $1400. It can be summed up as "You get what you pay for". No one is blasting _Dell_ for offering a $1400 computer - 350% markup for inferior tech! So anyone comparing markups versus the cheapest Dell you can find -> 400% markup.
But that _same_ $1600 computer has a markup of 17% compared to the other Dell.
Price comparisons are always nuts. Yes, Apple needs more performance, and a better price/performance.
Originally posted by Nevyn
Dell Dimension 8250, P4 2.40 .... Price: $1366.
Dell Dimension 4550 2.53GHz .... Price: $399.
Apple will _never_ be able to compete with _every_ product from Dell. (Nor will Compaq, Gateway, or anyone else.) It's a simple size issue. Dell competes with Dell.
Now, Apple can make a powerful 970-based computer that will compete well with that $1366 computer - and I think they will.
Apple's model isn't going to work near $399. Ever. But there's a _reason_ one of those Dells is $400, and one is $1400. It can be summed up as "You get what you pay for". No one is blasting _Dell_ for offering a $1400 computer - 350% markup for inferior tech! So anyone comparing markups versus the cheapest Dell you can find -> 400% markup.
But that _same_ $1600 computer has a markup of 17% compared to the other Dell.
Huh?
Dimension 8250 2.4GHz 256MB 120GB $544 at Dell Home
Choose Desktops >Dimension 8250 Recommended $1029 System: 2.4GHz, Free 256MB RDRAM, Free 120GB, Free 2nd 48x24x48 CDRW, No Monitor, HK-206 Speakers, 1-yr Warranty. Total is then $869 - $75 coupon 2E6B9885FEC [Exp 4/29] - $250 rebate = $544 with free shipping.
The only reason the 8250 is more expensive is that it uses RDRAM and is slightly more expandable. If you're implying that the 4550 has lower quality components than Apple or other Dell products, you're wrong.
Originally posted by Existence
The OS X experience might be worth four times the cost on inferior hardware to you, but certainly not to me and not to 98% of the world. Now, I'm willing to pay a 20-30% premium for Apple's machines if they achieve parity with x86 offerings, but certainly not a 200-400% premium for inferior technology.
The PPC970 Mac might be the first Mac in the long time to achieve performance parity with x86 offerings. Let's just hope Apple makes it affordable or I don't think I'll be able to come back to the Mac anytime soon.
obvious you're willing to pay for inferior technology: microsoft windows. the "windows" experience looks pretty inferior to me, and you pay hundreds of dollars to have that on your desk
if 98% of the people say 2+2=5 that doesn't mean they are right. think for yourself. if people are that stupid you don't even want to be associated with them.
but on topic now: i think there is a possibility of a 4 model line up:
single 1.4Ghz, single 1.8Ghz, dual 1.8Ghz and a ultimate dual 2.4Ghz for the render and editing boys. (don't pin me down on the highest-end clockspeed it also could be 2.2Ghz)
I can assure everyone here that Dell's pricing structure has nothing to do with the clock speeds the 970 will be able to acheive initially.
If Apple releases a config. that begins with 2.x GHz, things begin to look good. If they go all out and release a quad as well, then things look very bright, gotta wear shades. 8)
Originally posted by gar
obvious you're willing to pay for inferior technology: microsoft windows. the "windows" experience looks pretty inferior to me.
but on topic now: i think there is a possibility of a 4 model line up:
single 1.4Ghz, single 1.8Ghz, dual 1.8Ghz and a ultimate dual 2.4Ghz for the render and editing boys. (don't pin me down on the highest-end clockspeed it also could be 2.2Ghz)
That actually sounds like a reasonable answer to poor PowerMac sales. And, I would gladly buy that high-end model if the motherboard features are going to be there.
- FireWire 800 { this will be there obviously.
- USB 2.0 {would be nice
- Serial ATA {PC's have it
- DDR 3400 { would impress the sh*t out of me.
- I know I'm forgetting stuff, but Apple has had forever to design this bad boy we have all been b*tching about not having for 3 years.
- The debut of the nForce 3 on this motherboard would be nice, and would shut everybody up.
I think your Speeds and configurations could happen, but I still worry about the little things.I also think Apple would not have to charge an arm, and a leg for the configurations with what I listed either due to the fact that they would sell like no Mac ever has. That configuration is the ultimate SWITCHER machine. Nobody could turn away from them. In addition they would bring developers in droves.