Safari tabs - what's your current opinion?
So when the big "we want tabbed browsing in Safari" debate was on, I hadn't used a tabbed browser, so I didn't have an opinion either way.
I've been using Safari beta 2 as my default browser (as in, I scarcely load any other) just about since it was released, and I've only just noticed how much I've come to rely on tabs: truth is, new windows now annoy me no end and I'm able to comfortably deal with half a dozen pages at once, and converse in as many forums at the same time as I like.
I'm just interested to see how everyone else is getting on.
I've been using Safari beta 2 as my default browser (as in, I scarcely load any other) just about since it was released, and I've only just noticed how much I've come to rely on tabs: truth is, new windows now annoy me no end and I'm able to comfortably deal with half a dozen pages at once, and converse in as many forums at the same time as I like.
I'm just interested to see how everyone else is getting on.
Comments
Until it has contextual menu items that allow navigation it doesn't matter, as I'll be using Camino.
Having said that, I *do* use them quite a bit myself.
Originally posted by Kickaha
I still see them as a hack on most systems to get around fundamentally flawed window management that we don't have to contend with.
Having said that, I *do* use them quite a bit myself.
*nods*
I wonder if you guys would mind explaining the 'flawed window management' you're referring to?
So, ah... they say it's bad because it promotes "MDI" which I learned later means "multiple document interface." That's what Windows uses - each window is an individual instance of an application, and instead of switching between applications, you switch between individual windows on a systemwide basis.
Anyway, I think how it promotes MDI is that it promotes putting everything into a single window rather than having multiple windows for a single application. Which is somewhat windows-like, but I don't understand the "fear" of it because even Microsoft's browser, Internet Explorer, doesn't have tabs.
Actually, I just completely don't understand the anti-tab people's arguments. They go over my head in trying to convince me that I'm evil for liking tabs... well, one thing is that they say that the title on the window is truncated with tabs whereas in the window menu, you see the whole thing. But usually I only need the first few letters to jog my memory and know what the contents of a specific tab are, and in fact, I don't even usually look at the tab titles. I just command-click a bunch of links that I'm interested in and start reading, and close tabs as I finish reading. So I have no need to look at the tab bar. All it ends up doing is reducing clutter for me, so I like it. Sometimes, I'll browse a number of message boards at once, and it's a godsend there. I'll have a tab open for each specific forum I'm viewing, and a tab for each topic I'm reading... if I had individual windows for each it would be FAR too complicated and I'd probably go insane trying to find what I wanted. Multiple windows are nice if you remember the contents of the page by the title, but I'm more likely to remember the contents of the page by its position, so multiple windows confuse me and tabs make everything better.
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
Oh man. It's only been explained like a billion times already.
So, ah... they say it's bad because it promotes "MDI" which I learned later means "multiple document interface." That's what Windows uses - each window is an individual instance of an application, and instead of switching between applications, you switch between individual windows on a systemwide basis.
The argument in a nutshell: It breaks the document = window paradigm, much like the OS X Finder broke the window = folder paradigm.
Currently, there is no consistent, system-wide (and therefore, Mac-like) means to create or manage such things on even a basic level, because the entire interface is geared to assume that a window corresponds to a document. So any MDI interface on a Mac has to be hacked in. It's not just that MDI adds another layer of complexity, or even that MDI breaks the old metaphor; the additional problem is that Apple hasn't introduced a new metaphor that allows MDI interfaces to be used and understood clearly and consistently across applications. The meanings of utterly basic commands like Open, Close, Save and Print used to be perfectly clear, and now they are not, and their behavior is inconsistent to boot. Absolute, system-wide consistency, and a sense that the things you're manipulating are real (in other words, that you can consistently predict their behavior based on a metaphor), are the unequivocal hallmarks of the Mac interface. Anything that does not answer primarily to those goals does not belong on a Mac.
Originally posted by Amorph
The argument in a nutshell: It breaks the document = window paradigm, much like the OS X Finder broke the window = folder paradigm.
Currently, there is no consistent, system-wide (and therefore, Mac-like) means to create or manage such things on even a basic level, because the entire interface is geared to assume that a window corresponds to a document. So any MDI interface on a Mac has to be hacked in. It's not just that MDI adds another layer of complexity, or even that MDI breaks the old metaphor; the additional problem is that Apple hasn't introduced a new metaphor that allows MDI interfaces to be used and understood clearly and consistently across applications. The meanings of utterly basic commands like Open, Close, Save and Print used to be perfectly clear, and now they are not, and their behavior is inconsistent to boot. Absolute, system-wide consistency, and a sense that the things you're manipulating are real (in other words, that you can consistently predict their behavior based on a metaphor), are the unequivocal hallmarks of the Mac interface. Anything that does not answer primarily to those goals does not belong on a Mac.
I guess all I can say is that I don't want usability to be sacrificed for the sake of consistency. But not the other way around either... a balance must be achieved.
I mean, if all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you do it too just because it would maintain the consistency?
I wish that one could set it default to open a tab when you click a link. This would make me a very happy camper.
Safari is good.
Originally posted by Amorph
The argument in a nutshell: It breaks the document = window paradigm, much like the OS X Finder broke the window = folder paradigm. (snip)
Actually, I think it's more fundamental than that...
On other systems, (say, oh, I dunno... Windows, and every window manager that emulates it, say, every freaking thing else...) there is *one* keystroke to switch between windows... regardless of app. So if you have 4 browser windows open, and 16 other windows, you have to cycle through as many as 19 other windows to get to the browser window you want. Heck, assume you have all four windows together, you still have to cycle through 16. (Of course, you can move back and forth with the reverse direction modifier key, but how silly is that?)
On MacOS X, you move only within the *current* app's windows with the window cycle keystroke. So you'll never jump from app to app like you do everywhere else. It makes *much* more sense.
So, under other window managers, tabs are a way of getting around the app A -> B -> C -> A -> B -> D -> A -> B -> A flipping that happens when wanting to get to another browser window quickly. It's a completely new UI element that *only* works around fundamental flaws in other elements. I mean, really, it'd be just way too hard to actually fix the flaws, after all... so instead they came up with a completely new system with it's own set of flaws.
It's a useful UI element in some ways, but it certainly needs some work to be considered elegant. And, it doesn't offer any real fundamental benefits because there aren't any basic flaws to be fixed in Aqua, like there are in other windowing systems.
So... no major benefit added like on other GUIs, but all the flaws of a less than well thought through UI element.
And even with all that, I still use them.
While the interleaving windows and the (potential) sharing of resources among apps and disparate documents is very nice, the flat (non-hierarchical) window management system is a bear to deal with when you're organizing the docs, especially when you have more windows/views then you can see at once on your screen. So there's this -- that word again -- conundrum where working with windows benefits from an interleaving window-centric system, but deeper and more complex window management suffers because when it tries to follow the metaphor. Maybe it's just the inherent limitation of 2D interfaces (and, no, I'm not thing that 3D perspective on a flat-panel monitor is going to solve anything
Is this where we start proposing adding "piles" to our browser?
the only time i don't like it, is on that rare occassion when safari crashes & you have all those tabs lined up!
Being able to move them around would be cool.