And that is an unsubstantiated opinion. Distraction from what? An economy that is experiencing slow growth but not recession, while we are still 18 months away from an election?
1) By historic definition we never had a recession. It is defined as two consecutive quarters of negative growth. We never had that. The economy barely contracted at all. I agree that we had a PRACTICAL recession. And OF COURSE 9/11 affected the economy. Please don;t tell me you are actually suggesting otherwise.
2) Documentation? This is not always true.
whoah.. lot of unsubstantiated opinions flying around here. Anyways, as I follow the money and the facts as presented all over the place, it is becoming more and more clear that the War in Iraq was undertaken under false pretenses. Now If you want to go under the (false) pretense of Iraqi freedom go right ahead. That suddenly the DOW finds somethng to pull it up, though nothing has really changed internationally. That gas prices have dropped precipitously without a single drop of Iraqi oil on the market, underlies my suspicions of "sham." But to lay out all my evidence would take too long and perhaps go too far off topic.
[B]And there it is: DEPEND. Exactly. They "need" these free government programs. Oh, I see. And this is all because of "Bush's tax cut"? Of course....mass starvation, grandma's not getting her social security check this month...oh the humanity!
Your numbers above are also total fiction. Even if they were true, you can't prove that a tax cut would cause any of it.
And your ridiculous argument about giving the people their money being a bad thing....GOOD GOD!!!! Your argument is the very essence of big governent thinking. That's right, let the GOVERNMENT tax us and then give us the money back through "free programs". Jesus. You are hopless.
--
Now who's taking leaps and jumps? My numbers are not total fiction. I know how much the fares in NYC are going up. I know how expensive day care and after school programs cost. I know all about property taxes. Do you live in NYC? Apparently you have an ideological issue with so called "big government." That's your right, however it does not mean that the issues at hand are not real.
----
And I will say this one more time: Signficant tax cuts INCREASE government revenue. That is historical fact. It has been proven time and time again. Have you not heard the adage? "In the beginning, there exists a large amount of revenue from a small percentage of taxation. In the end, just the opposite is true". But by all means, TAX and SPEND.
--
mathematically that's not possible. The same base that generates any kind of revenue cannot suddenly produce less revenue while increasing it's base. the only way that could happen is to change the method of revenue generation.
--
Wow. So a tax cut is useless? Let me ask you....why do you think it is that people have so much debt? I'll tell you why! Because most people cannot afford to lve a decent life with modern conevienences (while still saving for things like college education and retirement) because we are taxed at CONFISCATORY rates. That's why. Oh, I agree....some just cannot control their spending. That's true. Life is expensive, and it isn;t any easier when we are taxed like we are. My property taxes alone account for more than 10% of gross income. And DON'T TELL ME that's because of Bush's tax cut. It's because the federal and state goverments spend too much God Damn money on social welfare programs that create dependency. It's because we should only be funding the essentials: Defense, Education, Care for those who are legitimately unable to provide for themselves, law enforcement, etc. The problem is spending!
I really don't think you have any idea how much pork there is in the federal and state budgets.
----
You really have no idea of consumer behaviour. People are in debt because they attempt to live beyond their means. Plain and simple. I live the same way ( mostly) as I did when I was making half as much money. I have a positive net worth. Most of the peope I work with make the same amount, or have been making the same amount as me for far more years and have negative net worths because they attempt to live beyond their means. My attitude towards taxes is that it is the "cost of living." When I negotiate my salary I negotiate from an after tax number, not a pretax number. Then I use various vehicles to reduce my taxable income. Thing is, most Amerifcans have no clue on how to manage their money, they only manage to spend it. You give them tax refunds and they buy iPods rather than a high yield (place your favorite fund here) And that is exactly what Bush has in mind and that is exactly why it benefits the rich, who by and large are those who produce consumer goods or are directly affected by the movement of consumber goods.
Back to your property tax. Dude, so long as the school systems are funded by your property taxes, they ain't goin' anywhere. If you live in NYC you can blame the Fed for not supplying NYC with it's needed money to pay for "security" along with al the other fall out from 9-11 (and I wont repeat the documented US set up of those fellows) that caused property taxes to go up a record amount. Question: How do you want your money spent, Tomahawk misile or ( pick a domestic issue).. Clearly you prefer the former, so don't bitch now.
----
A tax cut is NOT useless. Like most liberals, you have gotten youself all tied up in the specifics and lost sight of the basic principle that holds firm: Since a full 2/3 of the US economy is based on consumer spending, people must be allowed to keep more of what they earn so they can spend it. Even if we assume that EVERY tax payer who got, say, a $1000 tax break this year and every year for 3 years put that money into debt-payoff vehicles, that would eventually free up more credit for them to use later.
--
Do you know what kind of debt people are in? Many are debts that are in the tens of thousands at 17+ percent interest. They pay out in minimum payments over $2400/year. Ain't no friggin tax refund going to even dent the principal much less cover the interest. And if theses same people after miraculously paying off their debt in 3 years, went and acquired more debt, then they are stupid mofo's
And here is what really gets me: People with your tax and spend positions rail against deficits. You say that we must pay off the national debt because the interest is causing INFLATION (not deflation) and will thereby raise rates and weaken the economy. YET INEXPLICABLY, the American people should not be allowed to keep more of what is rightfully theirs to begin with...even IF it is to pay of THEIR debt. Wow. Nice double standard induced by circular logic you have goin' there. If paying off debt is good for the government, it's good for consumers too. Or, should we, the greedy SUV-driving Americans we are, be told by the sanctimonious liberal elitists like you that we're just going to have to learn to do with what we have? Or possibly, LESS than we have now?
---
I don't know what universe you live in, but the on I inhabit says you only spend what you have. Or better yet, you save x amount from the top and do what you need to with the rest. I don't know about the rest of the folks here, but I believe there is a serious lack of proper prioritising on the spending of taxpayer money. Just as most Americans are too stupid to understand the principle of living within' their means. Well news flash folks the Piper get's paid regeardless. No circular logic here at all. Domestic issues are prioritised first the military middle to last and cash/weapons handouts to Israel are cut off.
What??? While there may be waste at the Pentagon, the FIRST and PRIMARY job out government has is to PROTECT the American people. Clinton cut military spending by almost 30% and it got him a demoralized, unfocused and out-dated force. This is the one area we absolutely CANNOT cut right now.
Out of date? Give me a break the weapons that are used now are some 30 years more advanced than any Taliban or anybody else. In fact it could easily be argued that the more we 'innovate" the more dangerous the world situation gets because that technology eventually trickles down to those you don't want to have it. While we're at it, I guess the pentagon is in the business of making up enemies for us to be protected against. I can name quite a few of those, can you?
1) It is NOT the government's job to pay for college. The government is YOU and I. That's ME paying for your college, not the big, benevolent omni-present federal government.
-- tell that to Castro.
2) Most middle and working class people would have no trouble aall meeting their priorities concerning college saving if they were allowed to keep more of their money.
--No, figures show that these middle class people would buy bigger homes, bigger cars, go on more expensive vacations and generally get into more debt.
3) Less school delinquincy? You have no factual basis for that statement. None whatsover. Ditto on you extrapolation regarding crime. Money isn't always the problem. Los Angeles Unified School District is one of the worst in the nation. It spends 12 Billion a year and has one of the highest dollars per student stats in the nation. I agree education can be an equalizer, but we spend literally TONS of money on it and it keeps getting worse in many ways. Take it from a teacher.
--
you're a teacher? Shyt!!!! So you have factual basis for your disagreement? School delinquency has much to do with how the student views school. Does he or she think it's relevant. How high are the teacher's expectations. What kind of home they come from. etc. A good shot of money into the right programs would do wonders for those students and families who care. Thse who don't just won't. I'm not on some Utopia trip. There will always be f*ck ups.
4) You may like to think that we live in a world where we don't need a military, but we don't. We live in a dangerous world and only strength will make it less dangerous. And yes...it is now less dangerous. The world, in particular the Arab world, has seen that US will follow through on its words. Raw power is what that part of the world understands. Call me a bigot if you like...my statment is true.
--
Well you labeled yourself. Oddly the same shyt was said about those Niggers in Africa wanting thier independence. Just typic White Supremist talk. The world would be fine if they ( pick 'em) do what we tell them to. When they don't like it and ask us to be gone. we say f*ck 'em and kill the "rebelious natives" to protec the great white race from those uncivilized barabrians (that would rape our women). Typical 15th Century White Supremacy. Sad thing is YOU'RE a teacher.
---
5) No, what I'd like is for the government to spend about 25-30% less every year. I'd like not to have 50% of my gross income go to federal, state or local agency in the form of a "revenue enhancement". I'd like for our respective governments to stop wasting money like they're at the frozen yogurt machine at Homestyle Family Buffett....that's what I'd like. I'd like for our government to fund defense and security, education and care for those who are disabled. I'd like for it to get the hell out my life and my checkbook. Americans are more than willing to take care of "home"...that's not the problem. It's that many of us feel it isn't the government's job to provide for our every whim.
- Shyt!! How much do teachers in LA make. personally I'm in the 26 percent tax bracket and figger 30% of my gross income gone before I see it. I can't check my balance sheet just now. Anyways, I don't miss what I don't have. Anyways, If you want your 50% back, you should use the government loopghole called a Corporation. Have your school district hire you as you.inc and then they couldn't tax your check. Then every April 15th you could write off all your expenses and only pay on the "profit." guaranteed it would be less taxes than you currently get hit with. Learn a lesson from your boys Cheney and Rumsfeld, Eff National Security get paid and get in the Adinistration.
6) However horrible war can be, I am more than willing to support it if it prevents the possible hand-off of WOMD to a terrorist organization like Al-Queda, all while liberating 25 million people from a ruthless dicatator. The links to Al-Queda are now well documented, my friend. It's not a theory anymore.
-see previous comment
7) Israel: The way in which you make your point shows your bias. While I have my problems with Israel's approach, there is NO EXCUSE for homicide bombings. None. Israel has a right to defend itself.
-- Don't agree at all. Isreal is a settler state and I wish the Natives of America had some suicide bombers and blew the puritans off their land. I say we revoke all monies sent to Israel and destory their weapons of mass destruction. Once that happens they have no choice but to make nice. Besides I have no sympthay for a nation created by literally kicking people out of their homes at gunpoint. F*ck em.
Look, we can argue all day if you want. More money for working Americans means a better economy. Period. If you don;t believe that, it is pointless to even argue with you. [/B][/QUOTE]
-More money for Americans is good for Visa, Mastercard, Discover, Exxon, Mobil, Best Buy, Apple, Microsoft, Walmart, Kmart and Home Depot. and CEOS' whose compensation is somewhere about 500x the average workers. GOD BLESS AMERICA, where the citizenry, while getting the shaft will complain that they're not getting shafted enough.
Comments
Oh, you mean this post:
And that is an unsubstantiated opinion. Distraction from what? An economy that is experiencing slow growth but not recession, while we are still 18 months away from an election?
1) By historic definition we never had a recession. It is defined as two consecutive quarters of negative growth. We never had that. The economy barely contracted at all. I agree that we had a PRACTICAL recession. And OF COURSE 9/11 affected the economy. Please don;t tell me you are actually suggesting otherwise.
2) Documentation? This is not always true.
whoah.. lot of unsubstantiated opinions flying around here. Anyways, as I follow the money and the facts as presented all over the place, it is becoming more and more clear that the War in Iraq was undertaken under false pretenses. Now If you want to go under the (false) pretense of Iraqi freedom go right ahead. That suddenly the DOW finds somethng to pull it up, though nothing has really changed internationally. That gas prices have dropped precipitously without a single drop of Iraqi oil on the market, underlies my suspicions of "sham." But to lay out all my evidence would take too long and perhaps go too far off topic.
[B]And there it is: DEPEND. Exactly. They "need" these free government programs. Oh, I see. And this is all because of "Bush's tax cut"? Of course....mass starvation, grandma's not getting her social security check this month...oh the humanity!
Your numbers above are also total fiction. Even if they were true, you can't prove that a tax cut would cause any of it.
And your ridiculous argument about giving the people their money being a bad thing....GOOD GOD!!!! Your argument is the very essence of big governent thinking. That's right, let the GOVERNMENT tax us and then give us the money back through "free programs". Jesus. You are hopless.
--
Now who's taking leaps and jumps? My numbers are not total fiction. I know how much the fares in NYC are going up. I know how expensive day care and after school programs cost. I know all about property taxes. Do you live in NYC? Apparently you have an ideological issue with so called "big government." That's your right, however it does not mean that the issues at hand are not real.
----
And I will say this one more time: Signficant tax cuts INCREASE government revenue. That is historical fact. It has been proven time and time again. Have you not heard the adage? "In the beginning, there exists a large amount of revenue from a small percentage of taxation. In the end, just the opposite is true". But by all means, TAX and SPEND.
--
mathematically that's not possible. The same base that generates any kind of revenue cannot suddenly produce less revenue while increasing it's base. the only way that could happen is to change the method of revenue generation.
--
Wow. So a tax cut is useless? Let me ask you....why do you think it is that people have so much debt? I'll tell you why! Because most people cannot afford to lve a decent life with modern conevienences (while still saving for things like college education and retirement) because we are taxed at CONFISCATORY rates. That's why. Oh, I agree....some just cannot control their spending. That's true. Life is expensive, and it isn;t any easier when we are taxed like we are. My property taxes alone account for more than 10% of gross income. And DON'T TELL ME that's because of Bush's tax cut. It's because the federal and state goverments spend too much God Damn money on social welfare programs that create dependency. It's because we should only be funding the essentials: Defense, Education, Care for those who are legitimately unable to provide for themselves, law enforcement, etc. The problem is spending!
I really don't think you have any idea how much pork there is in the federal and state budgets.
----
You really have no idea of consumer behaviour. People are in debt because they attempt to live beyond their means. Plain and simple. I live the same way ( mostly) as I did when I was making half as much money. I have a positive net worth. Most of the peope I work with make the same amount, or have been making the same amount as me for far more years and have negative net worths because they attempt to live beyond their means. My attitude towards taxes is that it is the "cost of living." When I negotiate my salary I negotiate from an after tax number, not a pretax number. Then I use various vehicles to reduce my taxable income. Thing is, most Amerifcans have no clue on how to manage their money, they only manage to spend it. You give them tax refunds and they buy iPods rather than a high yield (place your favorite fund here) And that is exactly what Bush has in mind and that is exactly why it benefits the rich, who by and large are those who produce consumer goods or are directly affected by the movement of consumber goods.
Back to your property tax. Dude, so long as the school systems are funded by your property taxes, they ain't goin' anywhere. If you live in NYC you can blame the Fed for not supplying NYC with it's needed money to pay for "security" along with al the other fall out from 9-11 (and I wont repeat the documented US set up of those fellows) that caused property taxes to go up a record amount. Question: How do you want your money spent, Tomahawk misile or ( pick a domestic issue).. Clearly you prefer the former, so don't bitch now.
----
A tax cut is NOT useless. Like most liberals, you have gotten youself all tied up in the specifics and lost sight of the basic principle that holds firm: Since a full 2/3 of the US economy is based on consumer spending, people must be allowed to keep more of what they earn so they can spend it. Even if we assume that EVERY tax payer who got, say, a $1000 tax break this year and every year for 3 years put that money into debt-payoff vehicles, that would eventually free up more credit for them to use later.
--
Do you know what kind of debt people are in? Many are debts that are in the tens of thousands at 17+ percent interest. They pay out in minimum payments over $2400/year. Ain't no friggin tax refund going to even dent the principal much less cover the interest. And if theses same people after miraculously paying off their debt in 3 years, went and acquired more debt, then they are stupid mofo's
And here is what really gets me: People with your tax and spend positions rail against deficits. You say that we must pay off the national debt because the interest is causing INFLATION (not deflation) and will thereby raise rates and weaken the economy. YET INEXPLICABLY, the American people should not be allowed to keep more of what is rightfully theirs to begin with...even IF it is to pay of THEIR debt. Wow. Nice double standard induced by circular logic you have goin' there. If paying off debt is good for the government, it's good for consumers too. Or, should we, the greedy SUV-driving Americans we are, be told by the sanctimonious liberal elitists like you that we're just going to have to learn to do with what we have? Or possibly, LESS than we have now?
---
I don't know what universe you live in, but the on I inhabit says you only spend what you have. Or better yet, you save x amount from the top and do what you need to with the rest. I don't know about the rest of the folks here, but I believe there is a serious lack of proper prioritising on the spending of taxpayer money. Just as most Americans are too stupid to understand the principle of living within' their means. Well news flash folks the Piper get's paid regeardless. No circular logic here at all. Domestic issues are prioritised first the military middle to last and cash/weapons handouts to Israel are cut off.
What??? While there may be waste at the Pentagon, the FIRST and PRIMARY job out government has is to PROTECT the American people. Clinton cut military spending by almost 30% and it got him a demoralized, unfocused and out-dated force. This is the one area we absolutely CANNOT cut right now.
Out of date? Give me a break the weapons that are used now are some 30 years more advanced than any Taliban or anybody else. In fact it could easily be argued that the more we 'innovate" the more dangerous the world situation gets because that technology eventually trickles down to those you don't want to have it. While we're at it, I guess the pentagon is in the business of making up enemies for us to be protected against. I can name quite a few of those, can you?
1) It is NOT the government's job to pay for college. The government is YOU and I. That's ME paying for your college, not the big, benevolent omni-present federal government.
-- tell that to Castro.
2) Most middle and working class people would have no trouble aall meeting their priorities concerning college saving if they were allowed to keep more of their money.
--No, figures show that these middle class people would buy bigger homes, bigger cars, go on more expensive vacations and generally get into more debt.
---
3) Less school delinquincy? You have no factual basis for that statement. None whatsover. Ditto on you extrapolation regarding crime. Money isn't always the problem. Los Angeles Unified School District is one of the worst in the nation. It spends 12 Billion a year and has one of the highest dollars per student stats in the nation. I agree education can be an equalizer, but we spend literally TONS of money on it and it keeps getting worse in many ways. Take it from a teacher.
--
you're a teacher? Shyt!!!! So you have factual basis for your disagreement? School delinquency has much to do with how the student views school. Does he or she think it's relevant. How high are the teacher's expectations. What kind of home they come from. etc. A good shot of money into the right programs would do wonders for those students and families who care. Thse who don't just won't. I'm not on some Utopia trip. There will always be f*ck ups.
4) You may like to think that we live in a world where we don't need a military, but we don't. We live in a dangerous world and only strength will make it less dangerous. And yes...it is now less dangerous. The world, in particular the Arab world, has seen that US will follow through on its words. Raw power is what that part of the world understands. Call me a bigot if you like...my statment is true.
--
Well you labeled yourself. Oddly the same shyt was said about those Niggers in Africa wanting thier independence. Just typic White Supremist talk. The world would be fine if they ( pick 'em) do what we tell them to. When they don't like it and ask us to be gone. we say f*ck 'em and kill the "rebelious natives" to protec the great white race from those uncivilized barabrians (that would rape our women). Typical 15th Century White Supremacy. Sad thing is YOU'RE a teacher.
---
5) No, what I'd like is for the government to spend about 25-30% less every year. I'd like not to have 50% of my gross income go to federal, state or local agency in the form of a "revenue enhancement". I'd like for our respective governments to stop wasting money like they're at the frozen yogurt machine at Homestyle Family Buffett....that's what I'd like. I'd like for our government to fund defense and security, education and care for those who are disabled. I'd like for it to get the hell out my life and my checkbook. Americans are more than willing to take care of "home"...that's not the problem. It's that many of us feel it isn't the government's job to provide for our every whim.
- Shyt!! How much do teachers in LA make. personally I'm in the 26 percent tax bracket and figger 30% of my gross income gone before I see it. I can't check my balance sheet just now. Anyways, I don't miss what I don't have. Anyways, If you want your 50% back, you should use the government loopghole called a Corporation. Have your school district hire you as you.inc and then they couldn't tax your check. Then every April 15th you could write off all your expenses and only pay on the "profit." guaranteed it would be less taxes than you currently get hit with. Learn a lesson from your boys Cheney and Rumsfeld, Eff National Security get paid and get in the Adinistration.
6) However horrible war can be, I am more than willing to support it if it prevents the possible hand-off of WOMD to a terrorist organization like Al-Queda, all while liberating 25 million people from a ruthless dicatator. The links to Al-Queda are now well documented, my friend. It's not a theory anymore.
-see previous comment
7) Israel: The way in which you make your point shows your bias. While I have my problems with Israel's approach, there is NO EXCUSE for homicide bombings. None. Israel has a right to defend itself.
-- Don't agree at all. Isreal is a settler state and I wish the Natives of America had some suicide bombers and blew the puritans off their land. I say we revoke all monies sent to Israel and destory their weapons of mass destruction. Once that happens they have no choice but to make nice. Besides I have no sympthay for a nation created by literally kicking people out of their homes at gunpoint. F*ck em.
Look, we can argue all day if you want. More money for working Americans means a better economy. Period. If you don;t believe that, it is pointless to even argue with you. [/B][/QUOTE]
-More money for Americans is good for Visa, Mastercard, Discover, Exxon, Mobil, Best Buy, Apple, Microsoft, Walmart, Kmart and Home Depot. and CEOS' whose compensation is somewhere about 500x the average workers. GOD BLESS AMERICA, where the citizenry, while getting the shaft will complain that they're not getting shafted enough.
BBC Link
I think the lower rates with lower taxes can stimulate this economy and keep us from what Japan has been through for more than a decade.
Fellowship